[floobydust]

 Okay, yes they look wonderful, have very sparse specifications (ie, no T&S data) and are completely handmade. I noticed that there is a DIY early adopter pricing available until November 1st. Even at the "wholesale" price, it's a bit staggering... here's what I received from their USA distributor:

Price is $1200 ea. in black and $1475 in gold.  After Nov. 1st. it will be $1995 and $2450 respectively.

 Any takers?

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

Kevin,

Richidoo (who sometimes posts here on AC, but also on AN) recently bought a pair and will be trying them in some different cabinets and OBs, so I'm just going to sit back and watch what he comes up with.

IMO, they didn't sound that great to me at RMAF -- but apparently  the drivers weren't broken in, and the boxes had just been built when they got to the show, and they're still not sure what kind of enclosure is going to be optimal for these, so I'll defer judgment until things mature a bit.

Good thing you didn't ask about the field coil drivers -- how about $25k per driver??!  I think I'd try the Supravox field coil drivers first at $2600 for the pair.

-- Jim

[floobydust]

 Jim,

 I saw the thread on AN and on the DIY forum from Chris, their unofficial spokesman. Sure seems like a superb driver, albeit very expensive. Gotta love the design characteristics, unique paper processing and the leather surround, and I still think AlNiCo magnet assemblies are special. They make the Lowther and AER drivers seem cheap. It also seems to be gathering some support out there and Scottmoose (Frugel-Horn fame) has already done a modified Spawn design for it which is what Richidoo (and at least one other) have built up. I still have this "thing" about the driver center being at ear level when I'm seated for critical listening and the shorter enclosures just don't cut it (unless I'm sitting on the floor), and most are designed to be on the floor for bass response. Still, I must admit... I'm tempted!

 Regards, KM
 
PS - only found a single NOS ECG-Philips 6DJ8. You're welcome to it... just email me a shipping address.

[jrebman]

Well, if you can afford it, I think the more people experimenting with these, the better.  I'm sure that somebody is going to come up with some great designs that will really show off the potential.  When I spoke with Joe Cohen just before RMAF, I asked him about a TL, and he said that he was really starting to think that that may be a great choice, so I hope somebody goes down that road.

For now I'm going to keep myself amused with 3 or more different 5" Fostex drivers in 2 or three cabinets.  A stock FE-127, perhaps two versions of Planet 10 modified FE-127s, and thanks to you, the FX-120 (and maybe eventually an EnABL'ed FX-120), and try those in my 42" tall QW pipe, the Fonkens, and maybe the Mileva.

And today I just got my two pairs of the 4" Merrill DC4 drivers, but I'll probably not do anything with them until next summer when hopefully my hand will be healed enough to work in the shop again, and the shop won't be a giant walk-in freezer .

I'll send you a PM on the 6dj8.

-- Jim

[floobydust]

 Jim,

 This is too funny... I also just swapped another email with Joe. Literally asked him the same thing on the TL. If I opt to purchase a set, a TL is at the top of my list for a design. I worked with a couple good engineering guys in the 70's and we did some really great TLs using the KEF B139. Our's had an initial chamber which was then fired into a linear folded-line with linear packing of polyester. They went really deep, could walk down to 16Hz pedal notes in the room. TL's haven't changed much... I still have a new pair of matched B139s sitting here for later . But I agree it seems like a TL would be a good match with the Feastrex.

 Regarding the Fostex drivers... agreed on having several sets on hand for testing. Some of the FE/FF series are down right cheap. I just bought a matched-pair of FE-108E Sigma drivers from Ed... will play with those in the Horns I got from him instead of the FE126E. I would also recommend you shoot for a pair of the F120A drivers. I'm probably going to put these in the existing FX120 boxes and fire 'em up. I know and like the FX120 and this would be a good comparison.

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

And... when I had a pair of Horns, I had the FE-108s in them -- very transparent and detailed, but because of my room conditions at the time I really couldn't play the Horns up to their potential so can't offer anything more than that.  I also never heard them with the FE-126s.

Well, I'd love to get a pair of the F120A's, but a bit out of my budget until sometime next year, or when I sell my vintage JBL L-300s.  If there any left by then, then I'll definitely get a pair.

Right now my intention is to stick with the 4" to 5-1/2" drivers and work within those limits.

One idea I had last night was to build a bipole Zigmahornet with both halves sharing a common back piece.  I have 4 drivers to work with, so why not?  Well, I'll give it some thought anyway.

-- Jim

[Ed Schilling]

I built TL's as 2 ways for decades and for a few years built single driver TL's. Some sounded quite good but they all suffered one problem that is/was a deal breaker. They simply "couldn't play metal". Or any music that REQUIRES high SPL (AC/DC, Iron Maiden, etc.). This is a compromise I couldn't live with and unless the pesky laws change it will always be so. The bottom can be fixed with subs, the top can be aided by "super tweeters" but a TL will/does load a single driver in a manner it doesn't want to be loaded. The TS specs will mean nothing as to whether the speaker will be able to play music at "live volumes". It is VERY possible to have a speaker that MEASURES "97 dB efficient" but yet not be able to actually play MUSIC at that level without audible distortion.

A speaker I am very familiar with has an efficiency of "around 95 dB" and will easily play most anything with 2 watts or more,  but and it's a big one, it will also play  at levels above 105 dB peaks when used with an appropriately large amplifier (>10 watts but less than 200).

This is what I was NEVER able to achieve with ANY TL single driver regardless of size or specification speaker. Regardless of amplifier power as well.

A well known builder of single driver speakers (MLTL's) that uses a well known "arithmetician's" formulas actually made a post on a public forum titled "why single drivers can't play metal". He was exactly right sort of.......his can't and the reason is that they are TL's and I knew that was the case 20 years ago. He is also WRONG in that there are some single driver systems that can. However, none of them will be TL's or BR.

As always, what one considers loud another doesn't. I consider 100dB to be the MINIMUM a system should be able to make AT THE SITTING POSITION. If a system can not do this then it is not "real" and should not be considered "hi fi". The ability to play loud and clean is important if one expects to be able to play at low volumes and have good headroom and dynamic range.

Efficiency is both important and misleading......high efficiency does not guarantee the ability to play music at high volumes and it does NOT mean only low powered amps should be used.

I wish you guys good luck with the Feastrix but I predict it will do it's best work  separating people from their money. Of course this is quite common, after all, we all know the more money you spend the higher the performance, right? And "they" know it too.

The renewed interest in single driver speaker design has not changed any of the rules and for the most part 95% of what is out there was known and ruled out decades ago as far as serious speakers and practicality goes. The availability of fancy new drivers has not changed this and the fact that everyone has different "tastes" and opinions of what compromises they will accept means that there are lots of things that people can disagree on. And lots of things that some think are junk but others think are great.

If a fellow only listens to little girls with acoustic guitars he'll be able to get by with sedate volumes......if he listens to a truly wide variety of music the SPL compromise is the hardest to get around...the others are easy.

Just my opinion mind you. And 8 years later (after a 10 year quest) from when I formed this opinion I have not changed it simply because I have found it still true.

Ed

Kevin, drivers are on the way!

[DaveC113]

The first thing I though when I heard the Feastrex drivers sometime after I heard the Lowther/Pass room at RMAF was "this is what Lowther is trying to do". Both have a lot in common as far as their presentation and detailed sound, but the Feastrex don't have that midrange hump, and they do play very close to full range. For some, this may be worth the price...

Dave

   

[Ed Schilling]

Dave,
That sounds good. If they can also play at reasonably high levels in  a real room (even if a big amp and sub is needed) then "now we're talking".

No matter, they may be worth the price to those that can afford them. But as you know,  not all Lowthers sound like the ones you have heard. It's not the driver but the system. The situation could reverse itself, depending........

Hand made drivers cost a lot. Does not guarantee they can't be out performed by something much less expensive either. Now, I've certainly not heard them or all of the other high dollar drivers available, but I sure understand them and have heard enough to get an idea.

If you  liked what you heard and heard what you like and the cost seems reasonable then obviously they would be a candidate for a system for you.

I look forward to reading what is said as they become more common and what enclosures end up being best. And it'll be interesting to see how they hold up as time goes on. They are too new and don't fit my philosophy but hey, I am a curious guy.

Ed

BTW....my rant about TL's for single drivers was not meant to imply that a good sounding one can't be built, sure they can. In a single driver TL it's the efficiency part and the ability to (or should I say NOT) play "Metal" that I could not overcome within the constraint of what I believe the maximum cone diameter should be for a single driver speaker. And of course I could go on but I am sure everyone is  begging me to stop.

[jrebman]

. And of course I could go on but I am sure everyone is  begging me to stop.

Ed,

Not me.  You've got a hell of a lot of experience in this area, developed a great speaker that met all your requirements, and probably more than a few that didn't, and it's all valued here.  Some of us are here to learn, and regardless of all the various viewpoints and philosophies about single driver speakers, no matter how different, it's all valuable.

-- Jim

P.S. -- I'll be getting a Cube as soon as I can sell some of my vintage gear here.

[floobydust]

 Ed,

 Please don't sugar coat it, tell me how you really feel 

 But yes, there's always a high level of uncertainty with the exotic... and in general there are usually some well-heeled folks that like to invest in the rare and exotic and the reasons vary endlessly. Exotics cars are another category I have a reasonable amount of experience in as well. I would also agree that you don't necessarily get the big bang for the big buck.. and of course, what if it breaks?

 Trying to look at a more positive side, the high costs easily result from the machining, plating, raw materials and of course the labor which certainly makes it expensive to produce in limited quantities. I took a personal tour of the Lotus factory in Hethel some time ago. Highly impressive to see cars built this way and the end result is inspiring. The price is the price, the performance is the performance and you pick your poison. The Feastrex drivers represent an exotic in speaker drivers. Those who buy them and work with them will make a decision on whether it was worth it or not... and Feastrex future could easily hang on that outcome. If new adopters continue to speak highly of them it could be a good thing for Feastrex and people who buy their products. Back to cars, you think Ferrari wonders if all of their production can be sold?

 I would also tend to agree with your comments on the TL. The ones we worked on were only intended for low-frequency use as part of a 3-way system with optional bi-amping. The B139 was superb in this manner and could play amazingly loud with a 200-watt SAE (yea, solid state) and clean. Still one of the most impressive setups in a home I've experienced. I think there are some possibilities around the driver that may help overcome this. But for the hard-core rocker you're probably not going to get the SPLs you want from a 5-inch driver.

 I've basically made my decision on the Feastrex.... I have a few days yet 

 Regards, KM

 Ed, again, big thanks for the drivers.. well appreciated.
 Jim, swapped in the F120A drivers... new thread.
 

[jrebman]

Lotus Turbo Esprit...

Got a chance to drive one 20 years ago and will never forget it.  That car could pull some serious Gs, and handled like it was on rails.

Should have snapped one up when they only cost $60k .

-- Jim

[floobydust]

Lotus Turbo Esprit...

Got a chance to drive one 20 years ago and will never forget it.  That car could pull some serious Gs, and handled like it was on rails.

Should have snapped one up when they only cost $60k .

-- Jim

 Yes, I have to consider myself very fortunate.. I was in the position and snapped up a new 2000 V8 twin-turbo Esprit... no regrets at all. Great toy!

 Regards, KM

[Ed Schilling]

Kevin
We are on the same page completely. Your lotus is worth every penny ( I'm jealous) but we both know some kid with way too much money and a turbo/nitrous 5-700 hp friggin' Eclipse is going to be trouble on the real roads or the drag strip for a fraction of the cost. I figure the DIY guys are like him...they want to go fast and are willing to spend some money but can't afford the Lotus.

Other than for single driver speakers I think a TL is as "good as it gets". Of course they are not small or easy to get right but when they are right they are superb. One of my best sounding speakers too was a MTM TL using Dynaudio components. They also would go very loud when fed enough power and they had "impact".

I then became dedicated to the one way.

I look forward to your impressions of the Feastrex.

Ed

And now for something to ponder........just to put things into perspective....I built a LOT of sealed and TL single driver speakers for years. When I decided to rear load a 40-1197 (Fe 103) the 108 Sigma did not exist in the USA. Madisound was not the Fostex dealer and there were no recommended enclosures that I was/am aware of, especially since the 108's were not available. I got some of, if not the first ones available AFAIK. Hell, I had just gotten internet access! I did not "invent" rear loading, corner loading, constant width horns or the actual folding method. I simply built a system based on my set of rules, compromises and desires and years of experience building single driver speakers. Everything had been  conquered except the ability to "rock". This is why I tried rear, corner, horn loading the 1197. It seemed to work. So I "refined and improved it". And I was/am done.

Now here are the questions for those of you contemplating building single driver speakers......fast forward to today, how many Fostex recommended enclosures are NOT back loaded horns ("horn" being debatable!)? How many drivers do they sell that a TL or (single) BR is their recommended enclosure. What are the other type enclosures  they recommend? In checking, notice the warning about tuning them too low.

Now, Fostex is huge....doesn't it stand to reason that if anyone there thought other loadings  were "good" wouldn't they say so? Also, if they don't build a suitable driver for other loadings a curious person might ask him self "self, why is that"?

So there. Questions. And no, I'm not saying other loadings can't/don't sound good within their compromises (like all speakers, I guess).

Ed

[JLM]

Just because Fostex is "huge" (and makes drivers I like) doesn't mean they know everything about cabinet designs.  Lots of companies have built zillions of speakers but very few have done TL.  Kinda of like vinyl vs. digital or internal combustion vs. other engines.  The "other guys" have a huge head start in terms of experience and marketing.  The SACDs, Wankels, and other johnny come lately guys are at a severe disadvantage.  Doesn't make them "wrong", just unpolished and misunderstood.

Besides, who wants to be a sheep and follow the crowd.  That's like so boring.  Support the bleeding edge a little.

[Ed Schilling]

Jeff,
It's not about "cabinet design" (but I'd venture to say they are up on it) it is about what works "best" for what one is trying to do. You didn't really answer the question.....why is it they offer what they do? Wouldn't they sell more drivers if they promoted easy to build "boxes"? They are not really an OEM company and their drivers are sold primarily for the DIY market. Isn't a folded horn a "little" more difficult to design and build than a ported box? Hasn't TL design gotten easy since Martin?

I've already stated I prefer TL loading to any other except where I think it (based on years of experience) is inappropriate either due to driver specs or for single driver use (if one desires high efficiency and the ability to play loud).

One thing is for sure, anyone who builds a folded or not horn for a single driver is certainly not following the crowd and I'd venture to say they're undertaking a much more complex project than a TL. Martin's work will tell you how to build a perfect TL and construction of them is both basic and simple. Just try whacking out one of the Fostex enclosures using basic tools.

Again, just opinion.

Ed

[MJK]

Now, Fostex is huge....doesn't it stand to reason that if anyone there thought other loadings  were "good" wouldn't they say so? Also, if they don't build a suitable driver for other loadings a curious person might ask him self "self, why is that"?

Ed,

You know that Ford is huge, they build a lot of Taurus cars. They have been building them for years. Best seller for a few years. Doesn't it stand to reason that if anyone at Ford thought a Volvo or a Lotus was a better car they would say so? I bet a Taurus would do a fine job playing Metalica's Enter the Sandman at painful volumes. A Taurus is no little girl driving car for sure.

Obviously I disagree with your posts, we have been over this many times on other forums. Basically I have stopped responding to the bait and stopped posting much on AC. Keep your mind closed to alternatives and stay focused on your one recipe for a speaker if you like. That's cool.

You know that Bose is huge, they build a lot of speakers. Doesn't it stand to reason that if anyone at Bose thought ...........

You crack me up,

Martin

[Ed Schilling]

Martin,
Same here buddy. I wondered how long it would take. I read all your comments on these drivers and agree with you about them. Unless of course you have changed your position. There seems to be a lack of Man. data. and I assume most people interested in them have seen this thread, but for those that have not http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-70709-p-1.html.

As I read this it sure seemed odd that a maker of such exotic drivers did not appear to have simple measurement equipment. And then when armed with "Woofer Tester 2" it seems that they were confused about adding mass. That was strange to me. And not what I'd expect to read on a DIY forum. It was not "confidence inspiring".


Your car analogy was way too complicated for me to comprehend. Aren't Ford and Volvo "kin"?

Now Martin, you wrote....."Keep your mind closed to alternatives and stay focused on your one recipe for a speaker if you like. That's cool."

That was not very nice and completely untrue. My mind is quite open to alternatives that I have not tried 10-15 years ago. And that's how long ago I stuck my first FR driver in a TL. You are right, we have been over this all before and you know damn well my opinions are based on years of building things as well as thinking about them. But there are only so many things to try that fit a philosophy and I have tried them all with respect to mine. None of the rules that apply to FR single driver systems have changed and there is nothing new about the way drivers move air. Having a system that does exactly what I need and fits all my requirements is not an example of a closed mind. It is an example of a success. And a system that sounds good and can be duplicated will always sound good and so will the duplicates. The passage of time will not change a good speaker into a bad one. I'm not stuck, I'm happy, and I'm glad you are happy for me. Will everyone agree on this? I hope not. But as far as I am concerned and to a good many others it is true.

B*se sells their own stuff. Fostex sells raw drivers. To DIY guys. They have no reason to push one design over another as far as I can tell. Or to build one particular driver. As a matter of fact they build several variations of the same driver but yet offer no plans for "simple cabinets". I just wondered, that's all. I really don't know, but I did notice it. All of my questions aren't bait or trick.

But this thread is not about "us" it's about the Feastrex and from what you wrote in the DIY thread we feel the same. But for me I have other issues besides our common ones. That thread did nothing to make me feel better either and I had not seen it until just before I wrote this.

Even though I'm too stupid to get your car analogy it is worth noting we had a Sable (you know a "Mercury Taurus") with the "Ford Premium Sound System". And it did in fact sound very good. And no, it did not go insane loud but it really did sound sweet. Probably as good as I have heard a car sound. And one of my buddies owned a car stereo shop. The Sable just sounded "right". It had "it".

Good to know you are still out there.

Ed

[Russell Dawkins]

I read somewhere recently (in a post by Earl Geddes) that he designed some Ford auto sound systems, I wonder if that was one!
We have a Ford that has a compressor selector for the CD player which I think makes good sense for cars.

[Ed Schilling]

Well, a buddy has a pair of the 5 inch Feastrex on order and has already built cabs for them (based on a famous "arithmetician's" work, I believe). He has offered to send them to me after he breaks them in to see what my closed mind thinks. I'll crack open the door (to my closed mind) a little and build something for them. Of course since they have not been measured with any real degree of certainty as far as I can tell or he knows, the first job will be to measure them to see what they'll be happy with. Right now, who knows? If I open the door to my mind enough, it's no telling what might spill out and they end up in but at least I'll have an informed opinion of the things.

He's not expecting them (now) to ship until the 30th so it'll be several weeks or months before I get them and that's assuming he doesn't change his mind about lending them out. I was very surprised at his generous offer.

Should be interesting. This has been a worthwhile (for me at least) topic after all.

Ed