AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 11 Nov 2018, 12:24 am
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I have been working on the idea of a studio monitor for some time now. Several things have moved me towards wanting to build a true high end studio monitor.
1. Most studio monitors are mass produced budget speakers. They are far from what we often use in the high end segment of the market for music playback. Even some of the more elite models are full of cheap parts or are powered by cheap plate amps. No real high end studio monitor exists that I know of. At least not what I'd call true high end.
2. Not only are most of the studio monitors out there full of cheap parts and drivers but most of them really aren't that accurate. Most of the ones that I have measured are barely within +/-3db. So I see a real need for a higher level of accuracy.
3. The recording industry has changed. There are more and more home studios popping up than ever before. And again there is not only a need for a higher quality studio monitor but the market for studio monitors is getting larger.
So I have been working with the idea of using our new Neo 3 tweeter in this application. Where this tweeter really shines is when used in an open baffle. Un-loading the diaphragm really allows it to produce a smooth and relaxed sound while very accurately reproducing the timbre of real instruments. But the design also needs to be able to be placed close to a front wall. So full on open baffle isn't going to work.
I also have had in mind to use our M165NQ woofer for this application. For one, it is the best sounding woofer that I have heard or know of. It is also ideal for a sealed box. And this really needs to be a sealed box design.
So recent testing has reached a point of interest. I think I may be onto something here.
(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/studio2.jpg)
The GR Neo 3 tweeter loves the wave guide. It allows it to play low and roll off very smoothly. I am also experimenting with the speaker being open to the top. Playing with different types of damping material has allowed me to dial in the response of the tweeter and control what exits the top of the speaker and to the rear. It is like having a rear firing tweeter for ambiance and improved imaging but at the same time it is in phase as it is using a single tweeter instead of adding a separate one with a delay. It also allows the tweeter to operate in a free air application where it really shines. And since the upper wavelengths are fairly short placing it closer to a front wall won't be as much of an issue. Typical open baffle speakers require three feet or more of space from the front wall. These won't but will still add some of the qualities of an open baffle design.
Here is the open top with no damping material.
(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/studio1.jpg)
The initial response with very little tweaking has it almost within +/-1db.
And it only uses a second order filter on both drivers. :thumb:
Here is a look at the tweeter from the back.
(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/studio3.jpg)
I think I'll design a nice grill for the top of it to give it a nice finished look.
I think it is time to tweak it a little further and build out a pair of them for listening.
They will make really nice reference monitors as well. :green:
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This looks very interesting. Will a CNC front baffle be available as a part of the kit for those of us who could build the rest of the box? Any idea how low these will play? My room is boomy with not much chance of room treatment (WAF) so sealed would be terrific. Thanks for this new direction of kit.
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Very cool!
Will they be powered? I would imagine that most home studio engineers would prefer powered monitors. Will they be designed for near-field listening? Also, how low does it go?
Just curious if you plan to offer a conventional studio monitor or pursue a very small niche market of home studio owners who want audiophile-quality speakers and who realize they'll need a high quality amp and preamp, and maybe some subs to really make those monitors sing.
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Very interesting!
You mention that they currently have no damping material (behind the Neo). I can't picture putting No-Rez in there - too tight on space for the size of the cavity. Any thoughts on what you would use?
I can imagine these in many Office's as a listening speaker during work, but not sure you're intending them for a classic near field setup. Get 'em so that they're sitting right at ear height for the Neo - love the "Airy-ness" of these drivers. Very open soundstage.
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Poly - fill, Acusta-Stuff would wrk as would fiberglass . Not sure you;d want fiberglass exposed like that though... I've been a big proponent of Acusta Stuff since Ron Joyner turned me on to it a few years back
jay
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I might be interested in using these as front speakers for my 5.1 system. Monitors placed near the front wall is what would work best.
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I have been thinking of a larger 2 way for my next project, but these really look sweet and not too expensive.
The tweeter looks like a bit of a challenge to install, but I’m sure Danny, will put some thought into the kit to avoid trouble there.
A pair of servo subs to add some heft and clean up the mids and perhaps a giant killer has been created. :thumb:
Sensitivity?
Most monitor rigs, need dynamic range and the ability to play loud. These 2 little drivers up to the challenge?
:popcorn:
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nickd, I am going to make the surface below the tweeter flat for an inch or so then ramp it up to the back so that you can get a screw driver bit on it to install it.
And the sensitivity came in at 89db. Not bad for a two way monitor. Add a servo sub and you're done.
I am also thinking of a floor standing three way version with a pair of M-165/16's below. It would be like adding the lower section of the X-Statik model to it. I think it would make a great small floor standing model.
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89db is great for a stand mounted 2 way.
I also really like the way stand mount monitors image. Count me in for a pair when you get kits ready to ship. I’m excited about the new top tweeter exit and sealed box mid/woofer alignment. :D
Good to see you are still dreaming up new designs for average installs. I love OB designs, but had to give them up when the grandkids came.
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Very cool! Do you have a rough idea on the cabinet dimensions?
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How low do they play, ported or sealed?
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Sounds like a sealed box, Folsom:
I also have had in mind to use our M165NQ woofer for this application. For one, it is the best sounding woofer that I have heard or know of. It is also ideal for a sealed box. And this really needs to be a sealed box design.
Many a home studio has space limitations which require a close-to-wall positioning of the speakers, yet few monitors are designed to accomodate that. In my experience, this size driver in a sealed box can work well in this situation, with the 1/2 space LF gain working symbiotically with the sealed box bass roll-off to produce a flat-ish response down to surprisingly low frequencies.
This was Yamaha's intention with the iconic NS-10M, one of the few bookshelf speakers actually designed with bookshelf positioning as part of the design, as was the bigger NS-1000, although most owners of these do not know that and mistakenly position them out away from the wall and then wonder why they sound so thin.
Danny, it looks like there's an opportunity to design an angled interior top to eliminate at least that internal standing wave. If you tilted the back forward so the angle between the top and the back was 90º, you'd retain your top angle for the back of the HF driver and eliminate the front to back internal standing wave at the same time as the top-to-bottom one.
I have the NS-1000s, and the bass is really tasty—once it is placed near the front wall.
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How low do they play, ported or sealed?
By the numbers they are -3db down around 70Hz. But it is a pretty gradual roll off.
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Very cool! Do you have a rough idea on the cabinet dimensions?
The test boxes are 18" tall, 8.5" wide and 14.5" deep.
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I think the tweeter idea is pretty great.
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This sure has my attention. Looks sweet!
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Will a CNC'd front baffle only be available along with drivers and crossovers? I was thinking about building the cab with a 5 degree tilt back but is vertical dispersion so good that it's not needed? These look really interesting to me. Thanks.
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Will a CNC'd front baffle only be available along with drivers and crossovers? I was thinking about building the cab with a 5 degree tilt back but is vertical dispersion so good that it's not needed? These look really interesting to me. Thanks.
These will come with either a front baffle or complete flat pack.
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The speakers look real interesting. This would be something I would be interested in.
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:D I will bite on these,,,, this sounds ideal. Your on to a good ideal here. The floor stander will have one servo bass per side ? :popcorn:
Very interested. Won't break the bank yet tickle the ears,, , :D
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The test boxes are 18" tall, 8.5" wide and 14.5" deep.
Any chance at an option that has less depth? The height and width are big desk friendly but that depth would eat up a lot of space!
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Any chance at an option that has less depth? The height and width are big desk friendly but that depth would eat up a lot of space!
Rule of thumb is the width can be no more than 2/3rds of the depth.
Shorting this one will alter the tweeters rear, and to some degree, the front output. I'd have to see what effect it would have by shortening it some.
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:D ETA on these ready to 🐝 shipped ? I need one or two pair,,,, :D
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Danny,
I've been wondering what you've been working on and where you've been applying your magic.
These are quite interesting and anxious to hear more as you work out the details and finalize the design.
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Very cool and I second the idea about making a powered version. That would be great.
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Very cool and I second the idea about making a powered version. That would be great.
Yeah, I am thinking something like the Folsom amp with external power supply and a single RCA and balanced input. The power supply can then be a linear one or a battery plugging in with a Neutrik connector. It would need a little more power though.
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:D ETA on these ready to 🐝 shipped ? I need one or two pair,,,, :D
It's time for me to build out a pair, listen to them and tweak them.
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:) ballpark $$ ,,,, I gave the little elac monitors a try. Sent them back. Cheap is cheap I guess. If you can keep the cost under control you will sell lots of these I think. Peeps really are on a budget these days. But these little gems look cool. :D
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I may be able to customize a PCB a little for these. The hardest part is really fact that the chip must be angled 90* from PCB. Maybe I can come up with a way around that some day.
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I may be able to customize a PCB a little for these. The hardest part is really fact that the chip must be angled 90* from PCB. Maybe I can come up with a way around that some day.
There is plenty of room in the box for that little amp. My only concern is power. I'd like to see a little more power for it as it only has 89db sensitivity.
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There is plenty of room in the box for that little amp. My only concern is power. I'd like to see a little more power for it as it only has 89db sensitivity.
TPA3255 :thumb:
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TPA3255 :thumb:
That should work. Planning on using the TPA3255 amps to power my subs.
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The TDA7297 can never have more power unfortunately.
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Very good project Danny.
Closed speaker, without bass-reflex.
-3 dB: 75 Hz. About 89 dB/W/m.
Powered?
http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm#calc_spl
Calculators / Audio / Acoustics / SPL
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/KX-amplifier-speaker-89dB-15watts.png)
With SPL continuous of 80 dB (loud sound, usually I listen about 65 dB) and very good recordings with high DR (dynamic range) of 15 dB (peak power) we need 95 dB.
This calcs with near field -> in phase: +3 dB -> 94.2 + 3 = 97.2 dB (15 Watts, 3 m).
The tweeter better with a class A or AB amp than cheap with old class D technology I think.
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Deleted by maty.
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Closed speakers at 75 Hz (3 dB). If the impedance is near 8 Ohms, maybe the LM3886 (class AB).
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The TPA3250 is a stereo amp, where the LM3886 is mono, so you would need two LM3886 for the powered monitor. Lots of heatsink on the cabinet back for the LM3886's.
The TPA3255 is a lot higher power, 315W max stereo, so really overkill for the minimonitor.
Both the TPA3250 and LM3886 can be used with balanced inputs for studio use without problems. I used the older LM3875 with balanced inputs with very good results. The only thing might be startup transients, so probably a turn on output relay maybe needed for the LM3886.
Just make sure you are getting real IC's. Had some Ebay LM3875's that were giving startup transients where the ones from Digikey were fine. And I built at least 12 channels worth and those were the only two IC's that did have transients.
Sounds like a fun project to me either way.
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Tom’s 3886 boards would be fairly ideal. You need a hatsink exposed on the back, for sure.
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Well, with cheap class D, TPA3250:
Build Your Own Professional-Grade Audio Amp on the Sort of Cheap
https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/build-your-own-professionalgrade-audio-amp-on-the-sort-of-cheap
(https://spectrum.ieee.org/image/MzE1NTE2MA.jpeg)
(https://spectrum.ieee.org/image/MzE1NTEzMg.jpeg)
If it is to enjoy music I have my doubts.
The board mentioned in this article is no longer available (read the comments section)
gab
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I think you would have to sell many to incorporate an amplifier in each box. Better without power for now.
Pasito a pasito or step by step.
If I remember correctly, months ago you commented that you were developing a coaxial speaker. How is the project going? You know, I really LOVE my cheap tweaked -now with more mass over the original furniture- KEF Q100 (less ressonances, much better sound than new).
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Deleted by maty.
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Maty,
Please no offence meant, but you kind of turned a new speaker announcement into a digital amp sales marathon.
Perhaps next time start another thread. I’m a huge fan of good digital amp technology, own and use three very good ones every day. This just might not be the correct thread to discuss them.
Warmest regards,
Nick
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Deleted by maty.
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Interested in these in following along with the process here. I like the idea of the open tweeter on top. There are lots of excellent amplifiers that would match well to these monitors.
The Neurochrome Modulus-86 or the new 186/286 are obvious choices. Sounds like the crossover is not too complex being second order.
I'd be curious to compare these to something like JBL 705P or the Genelec 8040s. I think these are two cases where I don't agree with the assertions at the beginning of the thread. The 705s have a lot of good technology and design coming from the M2 lineage and the Genelecs are also well-designed and well spec'd IMO. 705s retail for 2k MSRP USD (powered). Genelecs are ~ 3250k MSRP USD (powered).
A pair of these + the Neurochrome amp would be far less than that and likely on-par when you add a servo sub or two. So that makes the project extra interested. Powered monitors are nice, but passives also have their advantage.
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Yeah maty, if you could just send those recommendations in a PM or e-mail then I'll take a look at them.
Perhaps split the thread and create one that is "Ideas for powering a Studio Monitor"
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I have cleaned the thread of my comments with alternatives for the amplification of these monitors.
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Any update on the monitor?
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:D yes,,,, I need a pair or two of these ! A Next Year thing ,,,, :popcorn: :thumb:
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I am also quite interested in these. I have quite a few friends who are getting into audio and I would like to build a pair of these to demo and loan around.
I was blown away by the X-LS Encores that CaptainHemo lent me. Part of what was so impressive was the huge bass response in a small room, so Danny, can you comment on these new monitors? I see you say they are -3dB at 70Hz. How much gain might there be in a small room? I don't mean to say that you under-rate your products, but the Encores seem to hit way lower than they have any right to. ;) They're rated at -3db at 55Hz? I played a bass heavy song for my girlfriend, and she thought my subs were on! :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188363)
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The low end roll off of the sealed box will be more gradual than a ported box. So it may have more perceived output down low than you'd think. And there will be some room gain down low, but how much depends on the room.
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The low end roll off of the sealed box will be more gradual than a ported box. So it may have more perceived output down low than you'd think. And there will be some room gain down low, but how much depends on the room.
Interesting - I did not know that sealed boxes have a more gradual roll off, but that makes intuitive sense. Adding a port might extend the bass response lower, but the roll off is sharper?
I guess what I really want to know is, will these monitors also do the subwoofer trick? :D
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Interesting - I did not know that sealed boxes have a more gradual roll off, but that makes intuitive sense. Adding a port might extend the bass response lower, but the roll off is sharper?
I guess what I really want to know is, will these monitors also do the subwoofer trick? :D
Yes, the lower end can be extended with a ported design and it will have a steeper roll off. However the air space will increase quite a bit.
I don't know about a sub-woofer trick, but they should blend really easily to our servo subs.
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I don't know about a sub-woofer trick, but they should blend really easily to our servo subs.
Haha, that's cheating because I think the servo subs blend really easily with any speaker!
Perhaps I should consider the 3-way version you discussed that has bottom section with a pair of M165s. Would the bass section work with the M165x?
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Haha, that's cheating because I think the servo subs blend really easily with any speaker!
Perhaps I should consider the 3-way version you discussed that has bottom section with a pair of M165s. Would the bass section work with the M165x?
I was thinking of just a pair of the M-165/16's like the lower section of the X-Statik.
(http://gr-research.com/productimages/123xstatik.jpg)
And that will keep the necessary air space down.
The M-165X has too low of an impedance to pair up two of them. I could series/parallel four of them to reach a good impedance level, but the air space would get kind of high.
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I guess what I really want to know is, will these monitors also do the subwoofer trick? :D
Over the years I have noticed that it is relatively easy to mate sealed boxes with subwoofers, but very difficult to get a good blend with any ported boxes, especially if the ported boxes are allowed to run full range. Usually it's not just difficult but impossible, if 'quality' is part of what you are listening for in the low bass range.
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I was thinking of just a pair of the M-165/16's like the lower section of the X-Statik.
(http://gr-research.com/productimages/123xstatik.jpg)
And that will keep the necessary air space down.
The M-165X has too low of an impedance to pair up two of them. I could series/parallel four of them to reach a good impedance level, but the air space would get kind of high.
He's actually heard 4 of the 165x's in an Ob config as I have them in my Otica's . They work great in this application..... I think he likes them :wink:
jay
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If I understand correctly, this would be a good option for those of us that love the N3/S, but don’t have the 3ft for open baffle, to be able to get an open baffle like sound?
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If I understand correctly, this would be a good option for those of us that love the N3/S, but don’t have the 3ft for open baffle, to be able to get an open baffle like sound?
Yes it would.
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Yes it would.
Count me in the definite column; perhaps you should call it N3 OB light. :)
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:D Danny, any word-up on these speakers ? Ready to go and cost ? :D
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:D Danny, any word-up on these speakers ? Ready to go and cost ? :D
I just met with another local guy with a CNC machine today. If I can get the baffle stuff figured out so that I can offer them with a baffle then I'll have it figured out.
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I'll try and get you the files this weekend .
reason we're not doing this is that danny has some material on hand he wants to make use of,,,, to costly to get it all sent up here.
jay
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Yeah, I bought ten pallet loads of 1 and 3/8" thick MDF with a veneer on each side for pennies on the dollar. I couldn't pass it up. If I can get them cut here then I can keep the cost of the front baffles down really well.
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:D cost is something on our Canuck minds as our buck sucks. 1.35 or less here. And will go down even more so 'they' say.
A great little monitor is such a good idea. :D
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:D cost is something on our Canuck minds as our buck sucks. 1.35 or less here. And will go down even more so 'they' say.
A great little monitor is such a good idea. :D
Jay can cut the same baffles for you guys up there in Canada.
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:) well that's great news. Any thoughts on roll-out Danny. I'm hurting for a few sets , and if they are that good ,,,, we will bite . Is the x over easy to put together ? :D
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:) well that's great news. Any thoughts on roll-out Danny. I'm hurting for a few sets , and if they are that good ,,,, we will bite . Is the x over easy to put together ? :D
The prototype that I tested with needed very few crossover parts. So it should be pretty easy to assemble.
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Love the idea or purchasing and shipping the baffle only vs. the whole box.
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:D now that is a great idea. Most can cut a box out of stock. Sign me up..
Danny,, eta on the kits ? I would like to give you $$ again ! Ha.
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Look what Danny has done now! A studio monitor with the Neos!. This speaker can be placed close to the wall. And if you add two M-165 speaker for the low end you will have an amazing floor stander speaker that can be and should be closer to a wall. :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190081)
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Look what Danny has done now! A studio monitor with the Neos!. This speaker can be placed close to the wall. And if you add two M-165 speaker for the low end you will have an amazing floor stander speaker that can be and should be closer to a wall. :lol:
Use of the Neo 10 would definitely make it a three way.
I still slightly favor the M165NQ woofer over the Neo 10 with the Neo 3 in the big wave guide. The big wave guide allows the crossover point to be much lower than when crossing to the Neo 10 on a more flat baffle. So the speed the M165NQ gives up to the Neo 10 is fairly negligible. The M165NQ offers a little more body to the vocals. It's a great combination.
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This monitor with the two 165s for the low end plus a sub, will the SPL be able to fill a mid+ sized room (20x20) with 18' ceiling to a good volume of rock music?
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This monitor with the two 165s for the low end plus a sub, will the SPL be able to fill a mid+ sized room (20x20) with 18' ceiling to a good volume of rock music?
Should be no problem there so long as you don't need crazy SPL levels.
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Is the front baffle or the flat packs and speaker/xover kits available? What would be needed to cross over to the two 165s?
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Is the front baffle or the flat packs and speaker/xover kits available? What would be needed to cross over to the two 165s?
I will be designing a floor standing version with a pair of the M-165 woofers below.
And yes the front baffle is going to be included in the kit.
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Here, I added enough length to the original model to position the tweeter center at 37.5" then spaced a couple M165's below the NQ at the same spacing as the Otica's. After radius's, there's enough room on the rear for a .5" brace between the drivers, could space them a bit more for a .75" brace.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190138)
jay
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Danny,
It would be nice to hear your thoughts on this.
I was thinking of running the small version of this monitor with servo subs. Filtering the main amp at 100hz for mid range clarity and full range bass. The pair m165’s in the floor stander still need a sub in my opinion even though they add a bit of mid bass dynamic.
Are large crossover parts in the “three way”passive tower worth the small improvements to mid bass the tower may have? Or will one 6” driver running from 100hz to 2khz with out a big cap in line be preferred?
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Goofed on that model, it would be a sealaed cabinet so the layout would be more like this to give the M165's the necessary air space.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190155)
jay
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Danny,
It would be nice to hear your thoughts on this.
I was thinking shouting running the small version of this monitor with servo subs. Filtering the main amp at 100hz for mid range clarity and full range bass. The pair m165’s in the floor stander still need a sub in my opinion even though the add a bit of mid bass dynamic.
Are large crossover parts in the “three way”passive tower worth the small improvements to mid bass the tower may have? Or will one 6” driver running from 100hz to 2khz with out a big cap in line be preferred?
A three way version has been in the plans all along. And it will have several advantages. I'll build a pair out and let everyone know what I think.
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I finalized the design work on these today. The attention to detail in the wave guide design really paid off. And the network turned out very simple.
Here is the crossover response showing each driver and the sum.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20crossover%20response.jpg)
And just the on axis response.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20on%20axis%20response.jpg)
And since these could be mounted high above a console, here is the response on tweeter axis and on woofer axis. It is pretty flat both ways.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20tweeter%20axis%20and%20woofer%20axis.jpg)\
And the spectral decay is about as clean as any speaker I've ever measured. These driver settle super fast and clean.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20csd.jpg)
Pretty even horizontal off axis responses too.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20horizontal%20off%20axis.jpg)
And the vertical off axis is very consistent too. For playback in a listening room they might like a slight tilt.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20vertical%20off%20axis.jpg)
And they have an easy to drive impedance load.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20impedance.jpg)
Now time to finish assembly on the first two pairs.
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Nice work on these Danny. I am definitely considering these for my small audio room.
Did you design in the full 6dB baffle step compensation? Or did you back off the baffle step slightly considering that these speakers may be close to a wall or on a console?
-Curtis
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GR New Studio Monitor
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/SM%20csd.jpg)
KEF Q100, original without more mass (over the furniture) like mine. Front bass-reflex.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/kef-q100/KEF_Q_100_Wasserfall.jpg)
Very good work!
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The decay looks great. This pair will roll over to the dual 165s in the 200hz range or will you try to go lower? I vote for both a version with the monitor separate from the two 165s and can sit on top and one with both as one speaker. I would like to start with them separate at first. Also could the monitor be turned 90* for a center if the neo wave guide and OB channel was rotated? Would two 130s with the neo in the middle have the same voicing as the neo 165? This would be some what smaller to fit below a TV.
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The decay looks great. This pair will roll over to the dual 165s in the 200hz range or will you try to go lower?
It can cross lower.
I vote for both a version with the monitor separate from the two 165s and can sit on top and one with both as one speaker.
I can make that happen. I kind of like the idea of using an inline passive filter prior to amplification to keep large caps out of the signal path. This would make it real easy to cross them over to some M-165's below and not compromise the mid-range at all.
I would like to start with them separate at first. Also could the monitor be turned 90* for a center if the neo wave guide and OB channel was rotated?
No.
Would two 130s with the neo in the middle have the same voicing as the neo 165?
This isn't crossing to a standard M-165. It uses the new M165NQ. This is a pretty special driver in many ways.
This would be some what smaller to fit below a TV.
For home theater applications a N3S would still match well as a center channel.
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I like the inline filter before the amp going to the monitor. Would this be a 6db single cap filter?
Any thoughts on using a 3D printed epoxy filled front and rear wave guide to mount the Neo? I was playing around with solidworks doing this. Is the wave guide some natural log curve?
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I like the inline filter before the amp going to the monitor. Would this be a 6db single cap filter?
Yes, but there is also a 6bd natural slope. So the two combined will be a 12db per octave slope.
Any thoughts on using a 3D printed epoxy filled front and rear wave guide to mount the Neo? I was playing around with solidworks doing this. Is the wave guide some natural log curve?
I had someone try that. It takes way too many hours to make them at any high resolution setting. It is good for prototyping, but not production.
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Okay, I have to get a decent camera and get some pictures of these.
I have a pair of these up and playing and they sound incredible. And I am not just saying that to try and sell product or because I am an un-objective proud father. These things really sound special.
They just added another layer to the sound stage that I typically only get with an open baffle design.
Grinning from ear to ear.... :thumb:
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Looking forward to the pictures.
Questions. Height? Weight? Bandwidth? Efficiency?
Is this a complete cabinet? No open baffle at all or is the planar tweeter still open baffle?
Thanks
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Looking forward to the pictures.
Questions. Height? Weight? Bandwidth? Efficiency?
Is this a complete cabinet? No open baffle at all or is the planar tweeter still open baffle?
Thanks
I'll go buy a new camera this weekend.
Height is 18" and depth is 15.5". I haven't weighed one yet, but they are heavy.
The measurements posted above tell a lot.
Only the tweeter is in open baffle. It is open to the top only actually. And it worked out even better than I expected it to.
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Thanks Danny. Looking forward to the photos this weekend or next week.
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I'll go buy a new camera this weekend.
Height is 18" and depth is 15.5". I haven't weighed one yet, but they are heavy.
The measurements posted above tell a lot.
Only the tweeter is in open baffle. It is open to the top only actually. And it worked out even better than I expected it to.
All good news :)
Did that little dado under the tweeter make things a bit easier ?
jay
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All good news :)
Did that little dado under the tweeter make things a bit easier ?
jay
Yes.
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I am all in. PM me and I will send money. 1 Pr of the monitors and a pair of the pair of the dual 165s. Again keeping the monitors separate form the 165s. Monitor front baffle or a complete flat pack. Same with the 165s. Also add the N3S to the order.
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If you need me to draw something up in Solidworks for cabinets let me know. Send me a table cad (hand) drawing and I can put it in.
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I am still playing with camera settings to figure out the best settings to use to get good quality shots that aren't huge amounts of memory and size.
Here are a few pics. This one has been burning in all weekend. This pair got a bright Copper front and metallic black body.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Copper%20SM.jpg)
This is pair got a dark Copper front and coffee colored body. The pictures don't do it justice. I'll try a few more.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Copper%20SM2.jpg)
The top section gets a grill cloth cover.
And the tweeter open to the top.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/tweeter%20opening.jpg)
The No Rez isn't stuck down yet. It is just laying in there.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/back%20side.jpg)
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(http://gr-research.com/pics/full%20front.jpg)
Yes that is grill cloth in front of the tweeter.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/close%20up%20front.jpg)
It is hard to get a good picture of it. The grill cloth is dark and the Copper really reflects the flash.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/close%20up%202.jpg)
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Well I gave them a good listen when I first hooked them up and was surprised at how they sounded. They didn't sound like they really needed some burn in time. And typically new stuff always has a fresh out of the box sound that makes me feel like it needs burn in time. These were good from the hit.
But after they played all weekend I came in this morning and was stunned at how much they relaxed and opened up. Man these make vocals breathy and relaxed sounding. The resolution is great, but still smooth. I can't wait for everyone to hear these.
And I did use some of the new Miflex Copper caps (.1uF by-pass) in the tweeter circuit.
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What brand and type of copper spray paint did you use?
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What brand and type of copper spray paint did you use?
The bright Copper was Premium Decor Matallic Copper.
The Krylon Fusion Matallic Copper looks good too and is slightly darker.
The dark Copper on was Rust-olem Hammered Copper.
Spraying this stuff over Duratex is very forgiving and really easy to do. The Duratex is tuff stuff and resists nicks and dings really well. and it touches up really easily if needed.
I wanted to finish these two pair out in a way that anyone can replicate the results.
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Danny,
They look great and glad they sound as you had hoped. Do you have any idea when the pricing and availability be finalized? Max power recommendations?
Thanks,
Btrmousetrap
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Okay what you've all been waiting for. Since the crossover was not at all complex (few parts) the complete total came in really low.
$859 for the complete kit including the CNC cut front baffle and two sheets of No Rez.
And $120 of that total was for the CNC cut baffles.
Copper by-pass caps are extra as are any other tweaks that you might want to try.
The stock crossover is great. It uses all Sonicaps, Erse XQ inductors, and Mills resistors. It also come with tube connectors.
Power handling will be no issue so long as power is clean. Since these are designed for studio monitoring, small rooms, or more near field listening then it is not likely that they will need much power.
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Now to go make those upper grills.
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Doesn’t the duratex have a negative effect inside the waveguide?
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Doesn’t the duratex have a negative effect inside the waveguide?
Not at all.
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Doesn’t the duratex have a negative effect inside the waveguide?
The tiny bumps would need to be the same size or smaller than the wave. But as the frequency goes up, so does the beaming so that less of it actually touches the waveguide. 20khz is still a 0.67 inch wave size.
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Doesn’t the duratex have a negative effect inside the waveguide?
Not at all.
I'm so glad to read this. I was wondering about painting my Super 7 monitors with duratex.
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Hi Danny. I didn't read through the whole thread so sorry if it is mentioned. I am looking for a small, accurate minute for my test bench system. Can you point me to the specs?
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Does the No Rez stick to the Duratex OK?
Steve
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Hi Danny. I didn't read through the whole thread so sorry if it is mentioned. I am looking for a small, accurate minute for my test bench system. Can you point me to the specs?
Go back to post number 86 and see all the measured data, sensitivity, and impedance.
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Does the No Rez stick to the Duratex OK?
Steve
I guess it would stick just fine. I used it on the inside and in the space behind the tweeter only. So it didn't have to stick to Duratex.
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Thank you Danny. You'll probably be hea rtting from me soon.
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I guess it would stick just fine. I used it on the inside and in the space behind the tweeter only. So it didn't have to stick to Duratex.
I wouldn't recommend applying duratex to areas you plan to line with no-rez. It seems to stick really well for a while but after some time, we've foundit begins to release. I've never had any issue with the no-rez releasing from primed/painted surfaces so it's likely the texture.
If you're going to try it, I'd thin the Duratex a bit (water soluble) an then paint the inside as smooth as possible in areas that will be lined.
jay
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I wouldn't recommend applying duratex to areas you plan to line with no-rez. It seems to stick really well for a while but after some time, we've foundit begins to release.
jay
That's what I thought. Unfortunately I did the inner surfaces of my H-frames with Duratex and a roller. Not realizing the consequences at the time.
Does paint remover work with Duratex?
Steve
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That's what I thought. Unfortunately I did the inner surfaces of my H-frames with Duratex and a roller. Not realizing the consequences at the time.
Does paint remover work with Duratex?
Steve
Sandpaper works well. Haven’t tried solvents as paint strippers are really harsh. A heat gunmight be another option but it sands easily enough
Mike
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That's what I thought. Unfortunately I did the inner surfaces of my H-frames with Duratex and a roller. Not realizing the consequences at the time.
Does paint remover work with Duratex?
Steve
Just wipe some contact cement on it then stick the No Rez to it. It'll stick.
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Pics with completed top grills.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/sm%20complete.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/SM%20with%20grill.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/SM%20back.jpg)
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They look really good man :thumb:
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And a picture using my wife's phone.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Sm%20with%20phone.jpg)
I think this cheesy Polaroid camera is going back.
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These look really nice, Danny!
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The monitors look intriguing, Danny, but I'd agree about the camera or its settings. It either can't focus or doesn't work well in limited light. Your stuff deserves better!
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You're kind of awful with a camera :lol: . Good thing they don't need you to be good with a camera to sound excellent. I like how the top is with a grille.
If you want help with getting to understand cameras a little, let me know. I can maybe help recommend something, to.
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You're kind of awful with a camera :lol: . Good thing they don't need you to be good with a camera to sound excellent. I like how the top is with a grille.
If you want help with getting to understand cameras a little, let me know. I can maybe help recommend something, to.
Yes, I need camera help. This little Polaroid just won't take good pictures. I've tried every setting. I am taking it back. I need a decent budget camera that will take good quality pictures that are not huge in memory size. I just need it for taking pictures of product for uploading.
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Yes, I need camera help. This little Polaroid just won't take good pictures. I've tried every setting. I am taking it back. I need a decent budget camera that will take good quality pictures that are not huge in memory size. I just need it for taking pictures of product for uploading.
Just buy an iPhone Danny. The last 2 or 3 models have excellent cameras on them, and their low-light performance is pretty good now too. If you get one with the dual-lens on them you can do portrait mode pics which will help too.
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In any photo editing software, just re-save (save as) the jpg at a lower quality and reduce file sizes dramatically. You don't need to save in high quality for web display
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Yes, I need camera help. This little Polaroid just won't take good pictures. I've tried every setting. I am taking it back. I need a decent budget camera that will take good quality pictures that are not huge in memory size. I just need it for taking pictures of product for uploading.
Ok you're going to need a few things, and to get a little more serious. This will ultimately benefit you more than you think I bet, having good photos.
Get a Canon PowerShot SX530 (https://www.amazon.com/Canon-PowerShot-Digital-Camera-Optical/dp/B00RKNND2W); don't forget to buy a separate memory card. (I would splurge for a Nikon D3400 (https://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D3400-NIKKOR-18-55mm-3-5-5-6G/dp/B01KITZKDE), but I'm trying to keep it low $) You're going to shoot in Av mode so you can set the aperture high for depth of field. It has selectable resolutions so you can shoot fairly small to decent sized, and you can select file size by adjust the "fineness". You're going to have to put it on a Tripod (https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-60-Inch-Lightweight-Tripod-Bag/dp/B005KP473Q/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=tripod&qid=1551378645&s=electronics&sr=1-3). And you need some lighting (https://www.amazon.com/LimoStudio-Photography-Lighting-Equipment-AGG814/dp/B00E4YS2XU/ref=pd_sbs_421_1/139-6643858-0834707?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00E4YS2XU&pd_rd_r=0a609251-3b89-11e9-9cbc-61e57e71bb01&pd_rd_w=u38OV&pd_rd_wg=mHWpG&pf_rd_p=588939de-d3f8-42f1-a3d8-d556eae5797d&pf_rd_r=Y9SS6E9WEFFCDRHRR0NB&psc=1&refRID=Y9SS6E9WEFFCDRHRR0NB#customerReviews).
The Nikon has a higher depth of field. That means you can get more in focus. When you're in aperture mode it will adjust shutter speed automatically, but you want to use the delayed photo taking. It's the feature that makes the camera count a few seconds before taking a photo. That way you aren't jiggling the camera when you take the photo, even though it's on a Tripod.
(http://www.elementsofcinema.com/images/aperture%20and%20DOF.jpg)
The lighting is just... you can't do that with flash. It also helps blow out the white background better. I think a long piece of white paper works well. Cheap and easy to replace, as well. Sometimes you can find rolls of it for cheap.
For under $400 you'll be able to take some pretty darn nice photos. Pretty damn cheap!
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If I may:
I'm not going to suggest this or that model, however I would not recommend purchase of any camera without external flash socket.
George
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Remote flashes are $$$$.
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Remote flashes are $$$$.
Not always. I got a package deal that had two lights with stands, two umbrellas, a shroud and two remotes that let you trigger the lights/flash either with the camera flash or the hot shoe inscarry case for $350
Mike
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Not bad, I still wouldn't use flash for product. It can be ok, but just plain lighting keeps it simple for someone who doesn't want to go any farther than necessary. Flash is kinda difficult to control for product.
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+1
Just buy an iPhone Danny. The last 2 or 3 models have excellent cameras on them, and their low-light performance is pretty good now too. If you get one with the dual-lens on them you can do portrait mode pics which will help too.
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My 15 year old Kodak camera (that finally died), on the lowest resolution setting, took better pictures than my daughters latest iPhone.
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https://www.dpreview.com/buying-guides
And get a tripod and remote release, which will probably make a bigger difference than the actual camera. If you can find a location inside that gets good diffuse light at certain times of the day, that makes the lighting easiest.
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https://www.dpreview.com/buying-guides
And get a tripod and remote release, which will probably make a bigger difference than the actual camera. If you can find a location inside that gets good diffuse light at certain times of the day, that makes the lighting easiest.
A remote release works, or the auto timer. The auto timer is slightly annoying because you have to wait.
But John is right, not shaking the camera allows you to get the exposure you want, where as without that you basically have to use flash. (in which case you need multiple flashes that are remote)
The Nikon D3400 uses a wireless release remote I believe.
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My 15 year old Kodak camera (that finally died), on the lowest resolution setting, took better pictures than my daughters latest iPhone.
My experience is different. I rarely use my Nikon D750 with a prime lens anymore, as my iPhone X Max camera covers close up photography so well and it is usually in my pocket :) That said, everyone's got to shoot what they feel comfortable with. DPreview does excellent reviews, so that is a good source.
I would also note that the photo upload settings on this site is pretty limiting on resolution/clarity. It is downsampling the JPEGs a good bit. Happy to discuss more if you want to PM me.
For example, look at this image here compared to the same image uploaded on Instagram (file sizes are not that different either and both are compressed files):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191510)
- vs -
https://inkphy.com/media/BtTP7BjBvKa
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Agreed. My wife has an essentially unused Canon digital SLR that I’m tempted to offer as a trade, but I honestly think an iPhone gets you to where you want to go with less hassle (and possible better results). A nice camera does not ensure nice photos. YMMV.
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The main thing with the iphone - use something like this, or you will always get crap pictures:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71GEM0ze6qL._SX569_.jpg)
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A GoPro Hero 6 takes great pictures as well as video and audio.
Best sound recording when you use it in HiRez mode I have done.
Comes with a small tripod.
Does need a phone or PC for control, and can be used to take remote control photo/video. Setup is mostly via the remote app.
Takes a bit of getting use to, but then you can use it in drag cars as well.
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Danny, any more updates to the monitor or the dual 165s? If putting the monitor on top of the 165s is the distance between them close enough?
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Also I know you don't care for the minidsp. Have you had a chance to look at the 2x4HD? Use it with this 3 way? (now it is appropriate to the thread)
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Danny, any more updates to the monitor or the dual 165s? If putting the monitor on top of the 165s is the distance between them close enough?
$859 for the complete kit including the CNC cut front baffle and two sheets of No Rez.
If you want you can just run an high quality inline filter to the amp powering the Studio Monitor that consists of a single cap value that will make them -3db down in the 80Hz to 100Hz range.
Then build a matching box for it to sit on that has two or even three M-165/16 woofers in it in a sealed box and power it with a separate sub woofer style plate amp. You could even use an inline filter with that plate amp to roll off the first octave and use a servo sub for the bottom end. And then you have complete control over the lower end. So it will be easy to balance the output and get a flat response in any room.
And that would be a killer combination.
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Also I know you don't care for the minidsp. Have you had a chance to look at the 2x4HD? Use it with this 3 way? (now it is appropriate to the thread)
Agh, please don't take on of the best sounding stand mounted speakers you can buy and put that in front of it. As far as budget level products go those are one of the worst.
Here is what I'd recommend for the best budget level DAC. And by Budget level I mean anything under $1,000. Have a look at the Music Streamer HD: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/viewpoint-hrt-music-streamer-hd/ I had one that had some upgraded RCA connectors and then it was cryo treated, and that DAC sounded really good.
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I need a little help with some numbers. I put in 3 each M165-16s in a 2.98 sealed box using winISD. Numbers show the three woofers @ 61hz, 3db down. Cone excursion at max with very little power (10w). Is 3 M165s sealed what is needed to blend with the monitor?
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I need a little help with some numbers. I put in 3 each M165-16s in a 2.98 sealed box using winISD. Numbers show the three woofers @ 61hz, 3db down. Cone excursion at max with very little power (10w). Is 3 M165s sealed what is needed to blend with the monitor?
That is about what each woofer will handle at 20Hz. You don't need them to play that low.
Three of them in parallel will hit 98db with 1 watt input. If you compensate for a full 6db of baffle step loss you're down to 92db. And the old 9db down point is now the 3db down point and that would be at about 39Hz.
That will do.
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Would the signal for the plate amps come from splitting the low level signal into two, with one going to the cap->amp to roll off the monitor and the other going to the plate amp?
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Would the signal for the plate amps come from splitting the low level signal into two, with one going to the cap->amp to roll off the monitor and the other going to the plate amp?
This would be ideal:
(http://gr-research.com/pics/yconnector.jpg)
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These are now in stock and shipping.
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Where would one order them? link
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Where would one order them? link
Call GR Research: 940-592-3400
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I've been looking at these to build for a friend of mine. Couldn't tell from looking through the thread but does the kit include pieces for a frame that acoustically transparent grill material can be stretched over? Thanx.
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I've been looking at these to build for a friend of mine. Couldn't tell from looking through the thread but does the kit include pieces for a frame that acoustically transparent grill material can be stretched over? Thanx.
For the top cover that is.
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The kit doesn't include a frame for the upper grill. Those are not too hard to cut, but if it is a deal breaker let me know and I'll cut you a couple. I did make a jig for it.
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Thanks Danny. No, not a deal breaker. Just wanted to make sure. Thanks for your offer too.
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Call GR Research: 940-592-3400
Are you going to add them to the website?
Finding time during the day is always tough.
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Are you going to add them to the website?
Finding time during the day is always tough.
I have a lot of new stuff to add to the website. I need three or four of me.
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With all you do, Danny, you're already 3 or 4 of me.
Chuck
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$859 for the complete kit including the CNC cut front baffle and two sheets of No Rez.
If you want you can just run an high quality inline filter to the amp powering the Studio Monitor that consists of a single cap value that will make them -3db down in the 80Hz to 100Hz range.
Then build a matching box for it to sit on that has two or even three M-165/16 woofers in it in a sealed box and power it with a separate sub woofer style plate amp. You could even use an inline filter with that plate amp to roll off the first octave and use a servo sub for the bottom end. And then you have complete control over the lower end. So it will be easy to balance the output and get a flat response in any room.
And that would be a killer combination.
Danny, these look really nice & I'm very interested in the setup you talk about here? Any more information you could share on this? Is there already a design out there for 2 or 3 M-165/16 woofers? I think someone may have done this setup with the Wedgies, but I can't remember.
Or, are you going to design a full, floor standing design for this? Thanks
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Back on page 5 there is a pic of a model for the front baffle with 2 M165's.
In the Neo3/neo10 thread (can't remember the actual name but will try and find it), posted some pics of a separate stand that would house 3 M165's. It is a wedge shape to match that speaker but could be asily modded to match these.
A pic or two of the 3 M165 stand is here
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160972.msg1716035#msg1716035
jay
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I've been thinking about the added M-165's below, and I think what will be ideal is to power them with an separate and inexpensive plate amp. That way the lower end can be dialed in and balanced phase wise, and output wise with flexibility on the crossover point.
This also keeps a large cap value from being inline with the M165NQ mid-bass driver. This can be more effectively done with a small cap value prior to the amplifier and at a lower cost.
And the high quality passive parts needed for the low (100Hz range) crossover point will be more costly than a good plate amp and not have the flexibility that a separate plate amp can provide.
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Why not on the sides?
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Why not on the sides?
Side loaded woofers could be used.
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I have a lot of new stuff to add to the website. I need three or four of me.
Yeah, I totally understand. I have the same problem at work. I am a developer, but not web, otherwise I would help you out.
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I just created a new post on these. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163940.msg1743254#msg1743254
Check it out.
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Just wondering (and I am aware that this is not your usual style..), but with its fairly low crossover, would a (still sealed) TMM design work at all for a fairly compact floorstander with pretty good power handling and 93dBs of sensitivity?
(I'm assuming ported designs either just wont work or get huge with these drivers...(?))
Also, weren't the prototype designs using the Neo 10 and the 3 with the more rounded wave guide flatter in the treble region?
Thanks
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Just wondering (and I am aware that this is not your usual style..), but with its fairly low crossover, would a (still sealed) TMM design work at all for a fairly compact floorstander with pretty good power handling and 93dBs of sensitivity?
(I'm assuming ported designs either just wont work or get huge with these drivers...(?))
Also, weren't the prototype designs using the Neo 10 and the 3 with the more rounded wave guide flatter in the treble region?
Thanks
A TMM pushes the acoustic centers too far apart. I tried it with a MMTMM too.
I can build the studio monitor as a small floor standing model with two M-165/16's below the mid.
And both of those models have a really flat response.
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Danny,
Does the complete kit include all the panels for the cabinet?
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Danny,
Does the complete kit include all the panels for the cabinet?
It includes the CNC cut front baffle. The rest is easy to make.
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Pics with completed top grills.
Wow those look great!
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Has anybody completed one of these kits? How big of a room can these work in and still get great detailed soundstage and imaging?
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Has anybody completed one of these kits? How big of a room can these work in and still get great detailed soundstage and imaging?
The bigger the room and the further you get them out in the room, the deeper and larger the sound stage will be.
I sold another one of these kits yesterday. It might take a little bit for feedback to roll in, but I bet it will be very positive.
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Hi Dannie, just ordered these amazing looking monitors yesterday (this is Q) and I had a few follow-up questions:
1. What material do you recommend for construction of the box? HDF, MDF, birch plywood, etc.
2. In your experience does changing the front baffle material (like Corian or aluminum) improve the resonance?
3. Does the kit come with the top cover frame/fabric?
Thanks!
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Hi Dannie, just ordered these amazing looking monitors yesterday (this is Q) and I had a few follow-up questions:
1. What material do you recommend for construction of the box? HDF, MDF, birch plywood, etc.
2. In your experience does changing the front baffle material (like Corian or aluminum) improve the resonance?
3. Does the kit come with the top cover frame/fabric?
Thanks!
Hey Q,
1. MDF is fine. It is dense and less resonant than other materials. It is also cheap and easy to purchase and cut.
2. The front baffle is 1.375" thick already. So there is no resonance issue. Also the woofer frame is made from a polymer material that is non-resonance and will not transmit a resonant to the front baffle like most woofers. And it surface mounts so baffle material is not removed for mounting like many drivers that have to be recessed.
3. The kit does not come with material for making a grill. Grill cloth type and color is up to you.
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Also, where is the listening axis? My listening position will vary between 5 and 7 feet from the plane of the speakers.
So while seated, if my ears are 40" from the floor, what height should my speaker stand be (or rather, how high should the base of the speakers be from the floor)?
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Also, where is the listening axis? My listening position will vary between 5 and 7 feet from the plane of the speakers.
So while seated, if my ears are 40" from the floor, what height should my speaker stand be (or rather, how high should the base of the speakers be from the floor)?
Ideally get the tweeter height up to near ear level.
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Where is this on the website? What the final name?
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Danny,
Do you have any idea what the -3dB point would be with three M165-16 woofers?
Also, any recommendations for the plate amp?
Mike
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[wrong tab - please delete ]
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Danny
I'm going to take you a few years with question. How would the bass be compared to my Criterion's
Thanks Scott
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Man.... I would love go get my hands and ears on a pair! Seems almost to good to be true... :green:
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Danny
I'm going to take you a few years with question. How would the bass be compared to my Criterion's
Thanks Scott
They are sealed rather than ported. So they give up a little bit of extension to your Criterion's. But they are very clean and tight.
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SO glad I found this thread, since the monitors aren't on the website yet!
I'm in Lafayette, Indiana, and would love to audition these if available from the gentleman in Valpo.
Can't send PM yet, but maybe I can receive one, if you see this?
Wes Tharpe
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Where is this on the website? What the final name?
The Website is going to get a whole make over soon.
These are simple the Studio Monitor model.
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For these would you all recommend sealed subs or OB subs?
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For these would you all recommend sealed subs or OB subs?
It really depends on your room. Either will work fine with the speakers.
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It really depends on your room. Either will work fine with the speakers.
I hear people talking about how it is to blend subs with speakers, in many contexts. In your experience, what are the pinch points?
Also, go Packers, and death to the rainy city bitch pigeons. Love me NFL playoffs!
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I hear people talking about how it is to blend subs with speakers, in many contexts. In your experience, what are the pinch points?
The real factor that determines which subs are best for you depends on how far you can pull them out into the room. Open baffles subs need to be three feet or more out there and more is better. For small spaces or spaces with limited locations, the sealed sub will work out best.
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The real factor that determines which subs are best for you depends on how far you can pull them out into the room. Open baffles subs need to be three feet or more out there and more is better. For small spaces or spaces with limited locations, the sealed sub will work out best.
So placement then would be the primary concern... do OB subs need to be pointed towards the listening position or can they be placed 90* off axis against a wall (so null area is against the wall)?
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So placement then would be the primary concern... do OB subs need to be pointed towards the listening position or can they be placed 90* off axis against a wall (so null area is against the wall)?
You can place them straight ahead in the room or towed in towards the listener.
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You developed these as studio monitor speakers.
I am wondering, would you suggest these as a good computer speaker/desktop speaker.. assuming you had a good amp and dac plugged into them?
I currently run some olld DCM CX07 bookshelf speakers and they do well but I am looking for something more. How are they as near field speakers?
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Has there been any more progress on the floor standing version? I'm about to place an order for these but am interested in the floor stander or version with separate bass module.
Thanks.
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You developed these as studio monitor speakers.
I am wondering, would you suggest these as a good computer speaker/desktop speaker.. assuming you had a good amp and dac plugged into them?
I currently run some olld DCM CX07 bookshelf speakers and they do well but I am looking for something more. How are they as near field speakers?
They will work great in those applications as long as you have the space for them. They are not small speakers.
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Has there been any more progress on the floor standing version? I'm about to place an order for these but am interested in the floor stander or version with separate bass module.
Thanks.
I haven't done any more towards a floor standing version yet.
The obstacle with them becoming a larger passive design is that it makes them less room friendly for the smaller rooms that theses were designed for. Adding lower woofers that are active or powered with a separate plate amp allows them to be much more flexible and adjustable.
So ideally just add a servo sub.
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Alright that sounds good. Thanks Danny. I will be calling next week to place my order. Are the flat packs currently available?
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Alright that sounds good. Thanks Danny. I will be calling next week to place my order. Are the flat packs currently available?
I think Peter is working on flat packs for this one.
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Danny, Thanks for putting this package together. I have started saving up the funds. :)
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Can the Studio Monitor be laid on its side with the tweeters towards the outside?
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The Studio Monitors were not designed for that orientation. The back wave of the tweeter needs to be able to reflect off the wall and ceiling behind them in order to give the spatial effect of the open baffle concept.
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My brother and I made a trip to Danny's this weekend to pick up some parts and got to hear these speakers. We were astonished at the quality of sound coming out of this size of speaker. Wow, what great sound! My brother, who wasn't in the market for new speakers, changed his mind after hearing how good they sounded and wanted to buy them.
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:thumb:
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"Rock Ball" thanks for posting that! I'm very excited to hear them for myself. I'm putting together a system for my father based on these Studio Monitor's. He is a bit unsure of my decision to go with something that he has not heard of and that neither of us have heard in person. So I am trusting this community to steer me in the right direction. Sounds like they will be amazing loud speakers.
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He is a bit unsure of my decision to go with something that he has not heard of and that neither of us have heard in person. So I am trusting this community to steer me in the right direction.
Actually, we were picking up parts for a pair of the NX-Treme speakers and triple H-frame servo sub kits that I purchased on faith alone. I had never heard them. I bought them relying only on reviews on this forum. Some people would suggest never to buy speakers that way, but I had faith in Danny because my brother has done business with him over the years. Well, when I heard the NX-Tremes at Danny's, I couldn't have been more happy. I made a great decision to buy these speakers. The reviews were spot on. (I'll post info on this in a separate thread.)
In my opinion, you made a great choice.
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I still can’t find the new Studio Monitor on the website.
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Ya they are not on the web site yet. You have to call on the phone. I'm going to be calling to place my order this week.
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Rock Ball I know that many don't recommend that approach to buying speakers but nowadays that kinda goes for audio equipment in general. With the rise of online sales and the subsequent decline of brick and mortar outlets, we have to be a bit more adventurous and trusting of reviews from others. This forum seems to be a good place to get good advice. After poking around a while you can get a sense of what others know and even see photos of their systems etc. That gives me more faith in the recommendations I get. Plus I have never been afraid to try new things and technology.
Yes please post you thoughts and findings on your new NX-Treme's and subs. I'm very interested in these. That should be a fun project! Enjoy.
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I am quite interesting in these monitors as I am in the market for new speakers in my office system. However, I don't have experience or the tools required to build the cabinets. Is there any intention of supplying these kits in flat pack format, with all the mdf panels of the cabinets already pre-cut?
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I think there is someone on here that could build a set for you. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164355.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164355.0) Maybe start a new thread asking that question in the title.
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Just placed my order for the kit Tuesday. Danny said he was out of No Res but is expecting more today (Thursday). Hopefully the kit will ship tomorrow. I'm very excited to try these! I'm planning on building at least two sets of cabinets maybe three. I have a feeling I will want a set for myself (the first pair are for my Dad) and just an extra pair in case someone else wants one. It's easy enough to cut all the parts at the same time so why not. Plus MDF is inexpensive.
I have mentioned that I am building a system for my dad. He gave me a budget of $5,000. I have been shopping the second hand market and have ordered so far: a Rogue audio Pharaoh integrated amp, a Music Hall MMF 7.3 TT with Ortofon 2m bronze cart, a Musical Fidelity V90 DAC and a Pangea Vulcan X equipment rack. The Pharaoh is Rogue's top of the line integrated and has a tube pre section with a class D amp plus a very good tube phono section and headphone amp. I'm hoping it will be a great match with the Studio Monitors. One thing for sure, it is fun spending other peoples money! HaHa!
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WHy do I have to read these forums. Danny now you got me interested in the mini floor stander you mentioned with the three M165 drivers. I’m not even done with this build! Damn!!!
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Danny,
On page 5 you mentioned you were working on a floor standing version? Any updates on that version? Would love a pair of the NX series but they are OB, I don't have the space.
A larger version would be amazing.
Thank you.
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Danny,
On page 5 you mentioned you were working on a floor standing version? Any updates on that version? Would love a pair of the NX series but they are OB, I don't have the space.
A larger version would be amazing.
Thank you.
There are some options there.
The best thing is to allow some flexibility down low so that they will work well in any room.
The easiest way to make them into a three way design that works well is to add two M-165/16 woofers in a sealed box right below them and power them with a separate sub-woofer style plate amp.
So you'd basically be adding the lower section of the X-Statik but having the flexibility of output level adjustment and phase.
(http://gr-research.com/productimages/123xstatik.jpg)
Or just add a servo sub, but you could implement what is discussed above and add a servo sub. That would really work out well.
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Hi guys.
Well the NX-Studio kit arrived yesterday (Danny is that going to be the new name for these?) Man these are some very high quality looking drivers and well just all of it. Very excited about this project. Planning to start this weekend.
I opted for the copper cap upgrade. Those look real nice.
I have a couple questions for Danny:
1. Can you talk about the purpose of the "Yarn Mod" to the tweeter? Have not seen that mentioned. I assume it's a tuning mod? (the tweeters come with a length of yarn and instructions for weaving it through the grills of the back of the tweeters)
2. Looking at the cabinet drawings, which way does the internal U-shaped brace face? I would think the open end would face the rear so the closed end can support the side walls closer to the center. Looks like there would still room behind the woofer. That should be indicated in the drawing.
3. Do you know what kind of wood the veneer on the baffle is? It looks like either cherry or alder. I'm hoping its cherry because I have selected cherry for the side panels and would be great if it matched. Was planning to paint the baffle black with black grill on top, but if it's cherry, that would look very cool also. (the MDF on this pair of baffles is veneered on both sides)
Thanks Danny.
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1. Can you talk about the purpose of the "Yarn Mod" to the tweeter? Have not seen that mentioned. I assume it's a tuning mod? (the tweeters come with a length of yarn and instructions for weaving it through the grills of the back of the tweeters)
The yarn goes on the side that will face you. Here’s the link to explain the yarn.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152039.0
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The yarn basically reduces the output near the outside edges of the driver. This makes the driver act like it has a narrower diaphragm, which improves it's lateral off-axis response.
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1. Can you talk about the purpose of the "Yarn Mod" to the tweeter? Have not seen that mentioned. I assume it's a tuning mod? (the tweeters come with a length of yarn and instructions for weaving it through the grills of the back of the tweeters)
Those other two guys already nailed that one.
2. Looking at the cabinet drawings, which way does the internal U-shaped brace face? I would think the open end would face the rear so the closed end can support the side walls closer to the center. Looks like there would still room behind the woofer. That should be indicated in the drawing.
And that U shaped brace faces forward. That means the open end faces the woofers.
3. Do you know what kind of wood the veneer on the baffle is? It looks like either cherry or alder. I'm hoping its cherry because I have selected cherry for the side panels and would be great if it matched. Was planning to paint the baffle black with black grill on top, but if it's cherry, that would look very cool also. (the MDF on this pair of baffles is veneered on both sides)
I think it might be Cherry. I don't know for sure. I got a great deal on sheets of that stuff at an auction.
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Thanks for the help guys!
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Does anybody have an idea on dimensions of a room where the studios would not do well medium/larger size rooms?
I know the studios are made for near field/smaller room applications
I just want to get an idea of what i may expect once my family outgrows our current house and need more space.
Thank you
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What would these sound like without the box? Like maybe an open baffle version? :green:
I'm still on the hunt to replace my Sonos speakers. I no longer listen to them in stereo pairs. I just put one in the corner of a room and point it into the room. It's for background music.
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Does anybody have an idea on dimensions of a room where the studios would not do well medium/larger size rooms?
I know the studios are made for near field/smaller room applications
I just want to get an idea of what i may expect once my family outgrows our current house and need more space.
Thank you
It really depends what you want out of them. They may have acceptable bass in a very small room but in large rooms they will need subs to fill out the low end. As room size increases the power and dynamics will diminish somewhat. Larger speakers with more or larger drivers will energize a larger room much better. Its just physics, move more air. However if you can resist the urge to spread the speakers and listening position further apart in a large room, in other words keep a more near field set you will still be fine as long as you have subs, and keep the speakers out from the walls somewhat. But like always it will require experimenting with placement and setup. You can still get great imaging and sound stage performance in a large room you just may lose some dynamics and punch. This applies to all small speakers really. Of course by the time you move you maybe ready to move to larger speakers.
I'm about to find out first hand myself. I will be comparing the NX Studios I'm building to my open baffle Emerald Physics EP 2.7's (compression tweeter, 12 inch mid, two 15 inch woofers per side) very soon in a medium size room with cathedral ceiling. I will report on my findings in a couple weeks with any luck. Should be fun!
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What would these sound like without the box? Like maybe an open baffle version? :green:
I'm still on the hunt to replace my Sonos speakers. I no longer listen to them in stereo pairs. I just put one in the corner of a room and point it into the room. It's for background music.
It would need to be redesigned as an open baffle speaker. It would not be the same speaker but a completely different one. These are in a whole other league than the Sonos. No real comparison.
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Thanks SonicJoy. It's a low priority project.
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What would these sound like without the box? Like maybe an open baffle version? :green:
I'm still on the hunt to replace my Sonos speakers. I no longer listen to them in stereo pairs. I just put one in the corner of a room and point it into the room. It's for background music.
For just sticking something in a corner, you'd be better off with an Omni design like this:
(http://gr-research.com/images/avopic2.jpg)
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What would these sound like without the box? Like maybe an open baffle version? :green:
I'm still on the hunt to replace my Sonos speakers. I no longer listen to them in stereo pairs. I just put one in the corner of a room and point it into the room. It's for background music.
Danny already has a speaker like this, except it has two of the midrange drivers, the NX-Otica MTM monitor. It's the top half of the speaker in my Avatar.
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Danny already has a speaker like this, except it has two of the midrange drivers, the NX-Otica MTM monitor. It's the top half of the speaker in my Avatar.
Right, but you definitely do NOT want to stick an OB speaker in the corner. The Omni I referenced above is a much better choice for those locations.
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Right, but you definitely do NOT want to stick an OB speaker in the corner. The Omni I referenced above is a much better choice for those locations.
Definitely don't put an OB close to a wall. My point, though not well made, was that an OB version of the studio monitor would not be a studio monitor, it would be an OB speaker.
IIRC Danny has said the omnis need 3ft of space from any wall, including side walls, because they radiate 360 degrees rather than the figure 8 pattern of OBs.
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Mike's right. Any omni speaker needs to be at least three feet from any wall.
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Mike's right. Any omni speaker needs to be at least three feet from any wall.
But the Studio Monitor can be placed close to the wall, correct?
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Thanks all. Didn't mean to derail the thread.
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But the Studio Monitor can be placed close to the wall, correct?
Yes.
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Thinking of building the Studio Monitors and using the M165/16's in a base. What advantages
are there in using 3 drivers over 2? Any disadvantage to a 24" deep cabinet the 3 M165/16 would require?
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Thinking of building the Studio Monitors and using the M165/16's in a base. What advantages
are there in using 3 drivers over 2? Any disadvantage to a 24" deep cabinet the 3 M165/16 would require?
That is not a problem.
The only disadvantage to the deep cabinet is that your cabinet looks deep.
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I must be blind I don't see these kits on the website?
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Call Danny. The website is a work in progress.