Resistor and inductor burn in

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mlundy57

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Resistor and inductor burn in
« on: 2 Sep 2023, 04:18 pm »
We've talked a lot about capacitor burn in and how it varies with the type and brand of capacitors but what about different types and brands of resistors and inductors? Say a wire wound air core vs a copper foil inductor or for resistors the Dayton vs Mills vs Path Audio vs Duelund graphite CAST?

Norman, myself, and another friend are getting ready to do some comparative listening between the above four types of resistors and one other in a crossover Danny designed for one of Norm's speaker designs. To compare apples to apples it would be helpful if they are each burned in to their respective optimal point before comparing them.

ketchup

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #1 on: 3 Sep 2023, 07:26 pm »
I haven't seen this info yet anywhere, and even if I did, I'd be skeptical as this sort of thing is very subjective. 

How will you be burning these components in?  Will you be installing them in a speaker and playing music, assembling the circuit and passing a signal through it with a dummy load, or using a cable cooker?  If you're using a cooker, will you be cooking the entire circuit or cooking each component individually?  Using a cooker should be quicker than just playing music.

No matter what method you use, I think you'll have to go a little overboard on burn in time to make sure they're all done before listening.  I'm not aware of a scientific way of knowing when things are "done."


mlundy57

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #2 on: 3 Sep 2023, 08:49 pm »
I haven't seen this info yet anywhere, and even if I did, I'd be skeptical as this sort of thing is very subjective. 

How will you be burning these components in?  Will you be installing them in a speaker and playing music, assembling the circuit and passing a signal through it with a dummy load, or using a cable cooker?  If you're using a cooker, will you be cooking the entire circuit or cooking each component individually?  Using a cooker should be quicker than just playing music.

No matter what method you use, I think you'll have to go a little overboard on burn in time to make sure they're all done before listening.  I'm not aware of a scientific way of knowing when things are "done."

Not looking for a scientific method. More like where Hobbs compared different by-pass caps in the same crossover and kept track of how long each one took to reach the point where the sound stopped changing.

Don't have a cooker so would be using them in a crossover circuit one at a time playing music until the sound stops changing. Once they all get to that point we can start comparing. I was just wondering if anybody had an idea of the type of time frame we're looking at.

Tyson

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #3 on: 3 Sep 2023, 09:00 pm »
IME, 50 hours gets you most of the way there, and 100 hours gets you all the way there.

mlundy57

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #4 on: 3 Sep 2023, 09:08 pm »
IME, 50 hours gets you most of the way there, and 100 hours gets you all the way there.

Do you think that would hold regardless of the type of resistor e.g. wire vs graphite?

ketchup

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #5 on: 3 Sep 2023, 09:44 pm »
Not looking for a scientific method. More like where Hobbs compared different by-pass caps in the same crossover and kept track of how long each one took to reach the point where the sound stopped changing.

Don't have a cooker so would be using them in a crossover circuit one at a time playing music until the sound stops changing. Once they all get to that point we can start comparing. I was just wondering if anybody had an idea of the type of time frame we're looking at.

I was just curious what method you'll use as I'm about to burn in a bunch of components for a pair of crossovers I'm going to build.  A cooker will save you a ton of time since you can burn everything in at once.  Just connect them in parallel and let it go for a few weeks.  Then you're sure every component has the exact same amount of time on them.

Tyson

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #6 on: 3 Sep 2023, 10:21 pm »
Do you think that would hold regardless of the type of resistor e.g. wire vs graphite?

Yes.

bhassel

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #7 on: 4 Sep 2023, 03:02 am »
I have no technical knowledge to substantiate what I'm about to ask on this topic; so, feel free to educate, flame etc. as you see appropriate. No hard feelings here just trying to see the logic and learn. This may be more philosophical than technical.

It would seem that the best way to burn in a circuit would be to build the whole circuit and then burn in. Each component in the circuit path will alter the signal that it receives for burn in, in its own way. So, each component would receive a slightly altered signal depending on what happened to that signal along the path before it.

If so, then burning in the circuit versus burning in the individual components would seem like it might give better results.

Ideas?

Bob



Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #8 on: 4 Sep 2023, 02:48 pm »
Not looking for a scientific method. More like where Hobbs compared different by-pass caps in the same crossover and kept track of how long each one took to reach the point where the sound stopped changing.

Don't have a cooker so would be using them in a crossover circuit one at a time playing music until the sound stops changing. Once they all get to that point we can start comparing. I was just wondering if anybody had an idea of the type of time frame we're looking at.

It would be an interesting test, though I suspect the differences should be fairly minimal for the most part, considering an inductor is just a coil of wire coated in enamel, (or foil with the layers separated by a poly-based strip), and most high-end resistors resistors are typically either wire or foil-wound based. (Graphite in Duelund's case).

Overall, I would expect should things act very similar to most any wire/cable where the main benefits from burn-in will be right at the surface of the wire where it and dielectric meets.
If it's anything like capacitors, components coated in some materials will burn-in faster than others. But seeing that the signal doesn't need to pass through the dielectric, like a capacitor, I'd imagine that most of the benefits will be fairly small, and would most likely manifest in the treble regions, since the dielectric will influence things like skin effect, in much the same way the PVC/Teflon/Polyethylene do. The one exception might be wax paper based foil inductors, but I'm just speculating based on how dramatic oil/wax + paper capacitors can be during their burn-in process.

That said, it would be interesting to test coils that have been fully burned in against fresh units, and see where the differences lie and what differences there are.

mlundy57

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #9 on: 4 Sep 2023, 05:00 pm »
It would be an interesting test, though I suspect the differences should be fairly minimal for the most part, considering an inductor is just a coil of wire coated in enamel, (or foil with the layers separated by a poly-based strip), and most high-end resistors resistors are typically either wire or foil-wound based. (Graphite in Duelund's case).

Overall, I would expect should things act very similar to most any wire/cable where the main benefits from burn-in will be right at the surface of the wire where it and dielectric meets.
If it's anything like capacitors, components coated in some materials will burn-in faster than others. But seeing that the signal doesn't need to pass through the dielectric, like a capacitor, I'd imagine that most of the benefits will be fairly small, and would most likely manifest in the treble regions, since the dielectric will influence things like skin effect, in much the same way the PVC/Teflon/Polyethylene do. The one exception might be wax paper based foil inductors, but I'm just speculating based on how dramatic oil/wax + paper capacitors can be during their burn-in process.

That said, it would be interesting to test coils that have been fully burned in against fresh units, and see where the differences lie and what differences there are.

We've already done one comparison between a fully broken in network with the Dayton resistors and the same network swapping the Daytons for new Deulund graphite CAST resistors. There was an audible difference which we all heard. The other two clearly preferred the Deulunds while my take was a bit odd. I found the sound with the Dayton resistors to be louder, more vibrant, and details were more forward not to the point of being bright but more on the edge of bright. The Deulunds were more refined, a little smoother, details were still there but not as forward and never bumping into the edge of bright no matter how loud the music was. Even though I found individual attributes of the Daytons to be a little more fun, I preferred the overall presentation of the Deulunds better, especially for longer listening sessions.

One thing we discussed was whether the differences could be due to the Daytons having a lower resistance even though the rated values were the same since the Daytons have a 1% tolerance vs 5% for the Deulunds. Norm hasn't measured the parts yet to see if there is a difference and if so how much. The hypothesis being that if the Daytons had a lower resistance, they wouldn't attenuate the tweeter (which is playing down to about 800Hz) as much resulting in them sounding louder and more forward.

Level matching is something we didn't think about until we were out of time for the evening. Ideally all the resistors would be measured and value matched before hand but with the price of the resistors involved, buying a large enough quantity of each to get value matches isn't in the budget.


Danny Richie

Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #10 on: 6 Sep 2023, 03:19 pm »
My feelings about burn in on resistors is the same as what was already stated by Tyson.

mlundy57

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #11 on: 9 Sep 2023, 03:57 pm »
Where can I get, or how would I make a device to burn in capacitors, resistors, and inductors before putting them in a circuit?

Danny Richie

Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #12 on: 12 Sep 2023, 03:40 pm »
Where can I get, or how would I make a device to burn in capacitors, resistors, and inductors before putting them in a circuit?

Just hook them up to a little Tripath chip page. You can buy those things pretty cheaply. Then just keep a music signal running through them.

ketchup

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Re: Resistor and inductor burn in
« Reply #13 on: 12 Sep 2023, 04:12 pm »
Where can I get, or how would I make a device to burn in capacitors, resistors, and inductors before putting them in a circuit?

This one will burn in capacitors, resistors, and inductors.  I'm using one to burn in phono leads right now and will put some ODAM caps on the higher current circuit next.  I tried burning in some 1.2ohm, 10W Mills resistors but decided to quit as the resistor temp rose to 200F.  The manufacturer assured me that it would be okay, but I didn't feel comfortable leaving them unattended. 
https://www.thecablecooker.com/