[mkane]

Always learning. +1

[Glady86]

 I wanted to add, those initial measurements are with the speakers positioning as follows.
 6' 9" from front wall to front baffle
 29" from side wall to center of drivers
 8' between the speakers measured from center of drivers.
 
 They both have small amount of toe in, almost pointing straight ahead. Is there a consensus regarding amount of toe in and distance between these speakers, or is it pretty much all room dependant? Also, should more toe in increase the high frequency response output at the listening position?

[Tyson]

I watched the video, its really informative. I can learn a lot from it. I never heard what a full blown treated room sounds like, so I don't know what I might be missing. And I don't know if Id want to persue it to that level. Its definitely something I will learn more about and take some steps to improve the room and see if it improves the listening experience. Also, I like a bit of bass bump and descending high frequency slope compared to a flat response.

Yes, this is exactly what sounds natural to us humans.  If you ever get a truly flat response in-room and at the listening position, it sounds way to bright and aggressive.  If you want to see the research and experimental data on that, check out Floyd Toole's work at Harman.

[VinceT]

There may also be tradeoffs due to the room. When I have the speakers as far into the room as I can have them (4-1/2ft) I get the largest soundstage but have a suckout between 125Hz and 175Hz. If I push them back to 3ft into the room, the suckout goes away but the soundstage isn't as large. I prefer not having the suckout so give  up some of the soundstage size.

If your using digital playback, with players like Roon can the EQ compensate for the suck out to some degree?

[mlundy57]

If your using digital playback, with players like Roon can the EQ compensate for the suck out to some degree?

The problem with suckout is that it occurs when the direct and reflected waves meet out of phase and cancel each other out. When you increase the amplitude of the direct wave, the amplitude of the reflected wave is increase as well. What you end up with is two higher amplitude waves waves still meting out of phase and cancelling each other out.

[Glady86]

 Those auto room correction units like Dirac, Dspeaker etc. mostly only chop off the peaks. In my experience then the bass sounds weak but more accurate. Most peoole add low frequency shelf eq to raise the bass output after the eq. it's called a house curve. You can go half nuts messing with that stuff. 

 Best to learn how to tackle it with treatments and positioning, which I will slowly work on. No hurry it sounds very satisfying as is.

[VinceT]

Those auto room correction units like Dirac, Dspeaker etc. mostly only chop off the peaks. In my experience then the bass sounds weak but more accurate. Most peoole add low frequency shelf eq to raise the bass output after the eq. it's called a house curve. You can go half nuts messing with that stuff. 

 Best to learn how to tackle it with treatments and positioning, which I will slowly work on. No hurry it sounds very satisfying as is.

I agree with the auto correction type software

It sucks the life out of the sound, only way to describe it.

In Mike's situation if there is a way to boost or cut at the player or streamer level that would/should not happen. Bass suck out perhaps is more of a room mode cancellation, I am not sure if treatment can address that. If your using CD/vinyl playback that complicates things.

[mlundy57]

I agree with the auto correction type software

It sucks the life out of the sound, only way to describe it.

In Mike's situation if there is a way to boost or cut at the player or streamer level that would/should not happen. Bass suck out perhaps is more of a room mode cancellation, I am not sure if treatment can address that. If your using CD/vinyl playback that complicates things.

My room is treated to address the issues I can't fix with positioning. Like a lot of rooms, mine is less than optimal for getting the best presentation. It's small, 12' x 14' x 8'. The speakers are set up on the short wall 3' into the room, 2' from the side walls, 6-1/2' apart, and 9' from the listening position which is up against the back wall.

Room treatment consists of four GIK Acoustics Tri-traps with range limiters in the front corners, diffusion between the speakers and at the first reflection points, and GIK Acoustics 4" Alpha panels in the back corners and behind the listening position. The room is on the second floor so the floor is suspended with carpet. The ceiling has a ceiling fan in the center so no place to put ceiling treatment.

Maybe adding some absorbers tuned to 150Hz at the back of the room might mitigate the suckout at the LP if I move the speakers farther into the room. Though replacing the wide band absorbers that are at the back of the room might create other issues. No way to know without trying it which I might do someday if I get a wild hair but for now, I'm happy with the performance I have.

[Glady86]

I did a bit of speaker positioning and measurements today. The odd thing is, I made a few measurements before I moved anything and the response looked a bit different. The highs are flatter or less of a downward slope and a bit more small peaks and valleys. Anyway, I adjusted the positioning of the speakers and subs and achieved better sounding bass.

 A big surprise was when I moved the sidewall first reflection point absorption panels higher and back further so that the midrange and tweeter drivers were aligned to the panel, before the panels were too low and close, as set for the lower standing and positioning of Emerald Physics speakers.

 Listening to some familiar favorite music and I am quite surprised by the increased resolution and better soundstaging I'm hearing.I think Im getting close to hearing the full potential of them, without the open baffle subs.

 The next step I might consider is getting some more room treatment items. Possibly order a kit from GIK.

[DannyBadorine]

I did a bit of speaker positioning and measurements today. The odd thing is, I made a few measurements before I moved anything and the response looked a bit different. The highs are flatter or less of a downward slope and a bit more small peaks and valleys. Anyway, I adjusted the positioning of the speakers and subs and achieved better sounding bass.

 A big surprise was when I moved the sidewall first reflection point absorption panels higher and back further so that the midrange and tweeter drivers were aligned to the panel, before the panels were too low and close, as set for the lower standing and positioning of Emerald Physics speakers.

 Listening to some familiar favorite music and I am quite surprised by the increased resolution and better soundstaging I'm hearing.I think Im getting close to hearing the full potential of them, without the open baffle subs.

 The next step I might consider is getting some more room treatment items. Possibly order a kit from GIK.

This is great.  Are you still measuring one speaker at a time?  Are you measuring from the listening position? 

[ctviggen]

Treatments really help.  I had a nicely treated room, and I could tell when I was placing the treatments into the room, while music was playing, how much better it began to sound.

[Glady86]

This is great.  Are you still measuring one speaker at a time?  Are you measuring from the listening position?

 To be honest, I ended up getting sick of testing with  REW and resorted to the  move and listen technique. 

  Though I did learn the left speakers output was slightly lower than the right. My preamp has a balance control, so it was an easy fix. It's a tube based preamp so the imbalance may be tube output differences.

 Also, in my experience I get better results when the speakers toe in is not identical. I guess its  a room arrangement thing, but the right speaker always ends up with a little more toe in compared to the left.

[Glady86]

Treatments really help.  I had a nicely treated room, and I could tell when I was placing the treatments into the room, while music was playing, how much better it began to sound.

  Yup,  room treatments and experimenting with speaker positioning are the two most  important and easily heard improvements you can make.

[Glady86]

To be honest, I ended up getting sick of testing with  REW and resorted to just the move and listen technique. 

  Though I did learn the left speakers output was slightly lower than the right. My preamp has a balance control, so it was an easy fix. It's a tube based preamp so the imbalance may be tube output differences.

 Also, in my experience I get better results when the speakers toe in is not identical. I guess its  a room arrangement thing, but the right speaker always ends up with a little more toe in compared to the left.

[Glady86]

  I use  an OPPO 105 for television and projector and  "Phantom" surround sound imaging is lots better now. I have rear surrounds but rarely turn them on. Surround sound is way down the list of priorities to me.

[Glady86]

I accidentally quoted myself trying to edit my post 

[Glady86]

  Other than room treatments, I know ideally you shouldn't have stuff in between the speakers for best center staging and imaging. I have some DIY room lenses I made years ago, I put one on each side of the tv and they sharpen the center imaging and increase treble presence, maybe too much though.

 What type of front wall room treatments is recommended for the NX Oticas? Is diffusion a better choice? Trying to figure out what to buy for that application.

[mlundy57]

  Other than room treatments, I know ideally you shouldn't have stuff in between the speakers for best center staging and imaging. I have some DIY room lenses I made years ago, I put one on each side of the tv and they sharpen the center imaging and increase treble presence, maybe too much though.

 What type of front wall room treatments is recommended for the NX Oticas? Is diffusion a better choice? Trying to figure out what to buy for that application.

I use absorption in the corners and diffusion between the speakers

[Glady86]

 

I use absorption in the corners and diffusion between the speakers

 Im considering a pair of the GIK Q7D wood diffusers for behind the speakers. They are expensive but excellent quality and there already finished.

 Another cheaper option is the similar looking diffusers from Amazon. Not finished and questionable quality.

[dpatters]

 Im considering a pair of the GIK Q7D wood diffusers for behind the speakers. They are expensive but excellent quality and there already finished.

 Another cheaper option is the similar looking diffusers from Amazon. Not finished and questionable quality.

They should work well. I’m using the ATS Diffusers. The GIK Q7D wasn’t available when I purchased.


Don P.