AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: SHV on 24 Jan 2012, 03:23 am
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"The new line of Supreme fuses is handmade, tip-to-tip of 99% Silver combined with 1% 24k Gold, similar to the material used in the Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold Capacitors. Mundorf also developed for HiFi-Tuning, a special Silver/Gold solder for use in the Supreme fuses. HiFi-Tuning's 99% Silver + 1% Gold melt wire, used exclusively in the Supreme fuses, is resonance-optimized to control vibration. "
http://www.revolutionpower.com/p/HiFi-Tuning+Fuses+-+Large+Supreme+SLOW+Blow+T/352/
Control of vibration is critical for fuses; well worth $79.99 USD per fuse.
Steve
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Used all sorts of hi end fuses. Hifi tunings (though not these exact ones), furutech, Acme. The best of them all by far are the AMR fuses. They just sound so clean and laid back. Warm even. Just thought I'd add my two cents.
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Pez,
Did you buy them in the US? Where are they sold?
And what did you find the strengths and weaknesses of the other brands to be?
Any component you found to benefit more than others? Start with amp, preamp source?
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By far the BEST fuse I have tried is a Audio Magic Nano-Liquid fuse !
These new fuses will send "SHOCK WAVES" through this whole market ! 8)
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Roscoeiii,
I have tried them exclusively in my SET amps. The main disadvantage I found with the acme and hifi tuning ones were they really didn't do anything positive in the mids. Most benefit was heard on high frequency. I thought it odd that they were marginally better than RadioShack slow blows in mids. Also the biggest beef I have with the Acme fuses is that they actually blew for no reason sometimes when I'd turn on my amps. I can understand if I had te wrong value or if it blew for legitimate reasons, but these suckers blew for no apparent reason. YMMV.
The Furutech fuses are the best of the bunch if you don't use te AMRs. The only flaw I found with the furutechs was that highs were a touch 'supernatural' sounding. Sort of artificially detailed. The AMRs are detailed, but they don't try to draw attention to themselves of that makes sense.
As far as where to buy I wish I could help you. I bought mine directly from the AMR reps at RMAF in October. I figured they were readily available. :dunno:
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.60
I have replaced most of my fuses with Furutech ones. It is not a day/night difference, but there *IS* a difference. I think it is enough to spend a few $$$ on.
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Pez,
Did you buy them in the US? Where are they sold?
And what did you find the strengths and weaknesses of the other brands to be?
Any component you found to benefit more than others? Start with amp, preamp source?
usa distributor:
http://www.avataracoustics.com/home.html#
on line:
http://www.angelsoundaudio.co.uk/ASShop/page134/page22/
(amr speakers look awesome, btw...)
doug s.
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I bought high end fuses for my speaker fuses only. Since my Magnepan fuses are actually directly in the signal path, I decided to go for them.
For all others I just get by with the standard 'plain jane' common fuses.
Mainly the difficulty of really getting the exact same type and rating for the particular application.
A lot of the "audiophile' fuses are kind of sketchy about the exact meeting of standards.
Mostly in the fast blow/slow blow area. The amp rating is not in question.. much.
While i will spend a few hundred for a power cord.. I baulk at the cost of one inch of 'audiophile' fuse.
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Hi,
The AMR fuse website is http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/goldfuse_specifications.html
I am ordering them from this dealer. He is a great guy.
Jeff Whitlock
A/V Solutions
www.avsolutionsca.com (http://www.avsolutionsca.com/)
925-425-0450 (http://tel:925-425-0450) (Voice)
925-846-6295 (http://tel:925-846-6295) (Fax)[/]
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The AMR seem to be the least expensive fuses around. Not 10 cents each obviously, but 3 fuses for $40 is a good deal. 3x cheaper than the Furutech.
I've used both HiFi Tuning & isolclean fuses, and agree that most improvement is in the treble range.
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They are a GREAT deal. I think though that they might look really great compared to the way overpriced furutechs and hifi tunings. $80 is a lot for something like this.
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Has anyone obtained benefits from using after-market fuses with Bryston amplfiers / products?
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Well it's good to know that the Revolution Power fuses are:
Finally, the Supreme fuses are treated with a proprietary quantum level process.
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Quantum Process or Magic Nano-Liquid? Or maybe just plain-ass cryo-treated? Decisions, decisions.
Steve
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Bryston and the other high-end audio equipment manufacturers are in a highly competitive industry -- each is doing everything it can to provide the best sounding equipment. If an "audiophile" fuse made a difference why wouldn't it come installed as a part of the original equipment? :scratch: The same can be said about power cords.
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Bryston and the other high-end audio equipment manufacturers are in a highly competitive industry -- each is doing everything it can to provide the best sounding equipment. If an "audiophile" fuse made a difference why wouldn't it come installed as a part of the original equipment? :scratch: The same can be said about power cords.
For those of us with SS gear who can't enjoy the pleasure and expense of "tube rolling"; I though that "fuse rolling" might provide a similar but cheaper form of audiophile pleasure. :>)
Steve
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Has anyone obtained benefits from using after-market fuses with Bryston amplfiers / products?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102819.msg1043151#msg1043151
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102819.msg1043151#msg1043151 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102819.msg1043151#msg1043151)
Sorry A - this is a circular link - if it means SHV has realized improvements then with what specific models of Bryston equipment and what exactly were the perceived changes / improvements? Tks.
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The fuses on the Bryston are not in the signal path but some people report changes anyway.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.0
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The fuses on the Bryston are not in the signal path.
Doesn't matter. Those who have convinced themselves that exotic fuses make an audible difference also enjoy them when used in the power supply. I suspect that a percentage of those people would also find an audible difference when used in a dummy fuse holder.
Steve
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The fuses on the Bryston are not in the signal path but some people report changes anyway.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.0)
Thanks very much Niels - this puts things in perspective. If on the power side only and not in the audio signal path then changing out the fuses on SST2 amps I would guess to be worthless.
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Doesn't matter. Those who have convinced themselves that exotic fuses make an audible difference also enjoy them when used in the power supply. I suspect that a percentage of those people would also find an audible difference when used in a dummy fuse holder.
Steve
:lol:
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Sorry A - this is a circular link - if it means SHV has realized improvements then with what specific models of Bryston equipment and what exactly were the perceived changes / improvements? Tks.
The only time that I changed a Bryston fuse, it was in an SP 1.7. I think that I paid $0.39 at Radio Shack for it.
This thread has turned into /snark/ gone wild. My apologies.
Steve
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Certainly a great way to turn $0.39 into $50, that is, if you don't have a conscience. Come on, what happened to the day when people had to prove a wild claim? The correct fuse, type and style is the correct answer, usually available at Radio Shack or Hardware Hank.
Wayner
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Proof is in the pudding SRB and Wayner, not that you'll ever actually try something like this. And even if you did odds are you're too old and curmondgeony to hear a difference any way. :P :wink:
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That's a pretty snotty comeback. I guess I'm not just another pretty face or a push over. I need to have some facts before I jump into the fool pool. As the old saying goes, a fool and his money are easily parted.
Whatever.
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It would be easy to find a buyer for fancy fuses on the used market. There really isn't much to lose giving them a try. I prefer to understand why a product should result in an audible improvement, but at a $40 cost and the ability to recoup 75% on the used market, it would be easier to hear for myself.
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They couldn't bring near as much improvement as the self- grounding audiophile shoe. No way.
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Just my two cents...I have tried both the Furutech and Hi Fi Tuning Supreme fuses in my Modwright preamp. And yes, I have been able to hear a positive sonic improvement. I can relate to the naysayers and skeptics when it comes to the multitude of tweaks out there...some with outrageous claims and "voodoo" science, but these seem to "work".
I originally tried the Furutech after reading a recommendation by Steve McCormack ( who does know a bit about audio :) ) and who is someone that I trust, having had some personal communication with him when I owned one of his amps. The cost for the fuse was not prohibitive if it made a positive difference, and I tried to be aware of any potential bias on my part.
Anyway, in my system, I liked the result...and I only wish that I was comfortable enough to open up some of my other equipment to replace the stock fuses in them.
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The AMR seem to be the least expensive fuses around. Not 10 cents each obviously, but 3 fuses for $40 is a good deal. 3x cheaper than the Furutech.
I've used both HiFi Tuning & isolclean fuses, and agree that most improvement is in the treble range.
I agree...
The audiophile fuses I tried in the past all of the improvement was in the top end BUT these Audio Magic Nano-Liquid fuses improves the bottom end and mid-range too. With my "solid-state" Yamaha a-s2000 integrated amp, the mid-range sounds :o like Solid-State... changing to... Tube Sound !! :scratch: :scratch:
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Sorry A - this is a circular link - if it means SHV has realized improvements then with what specific models of Bryston equipment and what exactly were the perceived changes / improvements? Tks.
Not really, I referred to my earlier post in this thread where I link to another thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.60) where I explain what I did and what the percieved changes in sound were. It even comes with pictures.
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Not really, I referred to my earlier post in this thread where I link to another thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=85846.60) where I explain what I did and what the percieved changes in sound were. It even comes with pictures.
Okay, this new link works - read your former threat and found your finding on the fuse replacement interesting. I guess for $50, it would be worth trying. If you didn't benefit, you could always sell the fuse for at least $25. Perhaps I'll try.
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Based on my experience with Supreme HiFi Tuning fuses in a Burmester 911 mk3, they do indeed work to improve the sound and they are directional. Orient them in the same direction (I need 2 in the amp) and at some point reverse them. Amazing comes to mind, but I never though it would matter at all in the first place and never thought direction would matter. It does. This has been the least expensive and best tweak so far. :thumb:
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Bryston and the other high-end audio equipment manufacturers are in a highly competitive industry -- each is doing everything it can to provide the best sounding equipment. If an "audiophile" fuse made a difference why wouldn't it come installed as a part of the original equipment? :scratch: The same can be said about power cords.
Well said!
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Bryston and the other high-end audio equipment manufacturers are in a highly competitive industry -- each is doing everything it can to provide the best sounding equipment. If an "audiophile" fuse made a difference why wouldn't it come installed as a part of the original equipment? :scratch: The same can be said about power cords.
Then why do many of these same high-end audio equipment manufacturers show their equipment, at RMAF for example, with aftermarket power cords?
Martin
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Then why do many of these same high-end audio equipment manufacturers show their equipment, at RMAF for example, with aftermarket power cords?
Martin
Hi Martin
Many do because they are sharing the cost of the Demo room with other manufacturers.
James
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I bet you could get even better results if you soldered the fuses in place.
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I bet you could get even better results if you soldered the fuses in place.
That would complicate things when the fuse blows :scratch:
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That would complicate things when the fuse blows :scratch:
It can be done. Besides, what good is a boutique fuse when it's still mounted in a flimsy spring-steel fuse holder?
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It can be done. Besides, what good is a boutique fuse when it's still mounted in a flimsy spring-steel fuse holder?
+1
doug s.
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These are great. http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/154
Problem solved if you are able to DIY.
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A power cord tuner? :roll:
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Check the link again.
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That's better, that's actually something useful.
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These are great. http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/154
Problem solved if you are able to DIY.
how is this:
(http://pi.b5z.net/i/u/1352634/i/Acmefuse.jpg)
gonna help here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37963)
doug s.
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how is this:
(http://pi.b5z.net/i/u/1352634/i/Acmefuse.jpg)
gonna help here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37963)
doug s.
Details, details... :green:
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ok James time for your imput
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Haha square peg, round hole?
Solution, BIGGER HAMMER. :icon_twisted:
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Easy - unsolder the clips, solder in pure silver sheathed wire from the board to the fuse....would I do it - NO WAY!
Perhaps you could send the part to Bryston with your amp and ask them to do it for a nominal fee...perhaps they could test your amp before and after to see if there were any measureable improvements with the new fuse holder and new fuse. Questions, questions, questions....
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why not yust roll your own?
according to this chart:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_%28electrical%29)
Fuse wire rating (A) Cu Wire diameter (mm)
3 0.15
5 0.20
10 0.35
15 0.50
20 0.60
and this chart:
(http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html)
AWG Diameter (mm) Diameter (in) Square (mm2) Resistance (ohm/1000m)
40 0.08 . 0.0050 3420
39 0.09 . 0.0064 2700
38 0.10 0.0040 0.0078 2190
37 0.11 0.0045 0.0095 1810
36 0.13 0.005 0.013 1300
35 0.14 0.0056 0.015 1120
34 0.16 0.0063 0.020 844
33 0.18 0.0071 0.026 676
32 0.20 0.008 0.031 547
30 0.25 0.01 0.049 351
28 0.33 0.013 0.080 232.0
27 0.36 0.014 0.096 178
26 0.41 0.016 0.130 137
25 0.45 0.018 0.160 108
24 0.51 0.020 0.200 87.5
22 0.64 0.025 0.330 51.7
get copper (cu) magnet wire, and attach to the fuse points. if you have smaller than 3a fuses, get thinner wire - magnet wire is awailable as small as 50awg...
doug s.
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I bet in a double blind test between "audiophile" fuses and "normal" fuses no one could hear a difference of any statistical significance.
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I bet the same is true for your audiophile grade amp vs a crappy pioneer receiver. :o
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Does being a volunteer give you a license to be a complete snot? Perhaps your immature nature just always shines thru.
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For me, inserting an isoclean or hifi tuning fuse elicited fundamental improvements in every instance. Its easy say the same about the Longhorn mod on any cartridge i've owned.
Controlling resonances is important all throughout our systems. Why support it on one end of the chain & not the other? The idea is to strengthen the entire chain, right?
With both tweaks voices get clearer, the recording snaps into focus that much more in a rich, harmonic way.
the AMR fuses are filled with nano fluid. neat.
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Does being a volunteer give you a license to be a complete snot? Perhaps your immature nature just always shines thru.
Wut, is it not true? I mean if you're going to say you want proof that high end fuses make a difference, why can't I ask for proof that amps sound different? The comment I made was not in jest. There have been many ABX tests which 'prove' no significant difference in amplifiers.
Sorry that makes you so upset.
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The only problem I can see with trying to roll your own fuses is duplicating the alloy used in the fuse
element. An internet search reveals that most fuse elements are designed to have a low melting point and in some instances are the same alloy used for soldering, a 63% tin and 37% lead alloy. Unfortunately I could not find a single instance where a pure copper wire was used as a fuse element. The other problem that would rear its head would be soldering that tiny piece of solder to something in the fuse holder.
I have heard an improvement in the sound of a fuse when I stripped off the nickel plating exposing the brass body and treated the fuse with Caig ProGold. The best sounding conventional fast blow fuse I found had a lightning bolt shaped element. Of course Bussman stopped making this shape of fuse element a few years ago.
Scotty
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the biggest beef I have with the Acme fuses is that they actually blew for no reason sometimes when I'd turn on my amps. I can understand if I had te wrong value or if it blew for legitimate reasons, but these suckers blew for no apparent reason.
That story makes me wonder if any of the audiophile fuses would actually blow when they are supposed to blow. I don't doubt that they are a sonic improvement, but I would always wonder if my gear was properly protected.
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The only problem I can see with trying to roll your own fuses is duplicating the alloy used in the fuse
element. An internet search reveals that most fuse elements are designed to have a low melting point and in some instances are the same alloy used for soldering, a 63% tin and 37% lead alloy. Unfortunately I could not find a single instance where a pure copper wire was used as a fuse element. The other problem that would rear its head would be soldering that tiny piece of solder to something in the fuse holder.
I have heard an improvement in the sound of a fuse when I stripped off the nickel plating exposing the brass body and treated the fuse with Caig ProGold. The best sounding conventional fast blow fuse I found had a lightning bolt shaped element. Of course Bussman stopped making this shape of fuse element a few years ago.
Scotty
"an internet search..." :lol: of course, that's where i got my info, as well. who knows? :green:
all i know is that wire fuses are relatively old technology, replaced by what we see now. but, regarding the need to duplicate the alloy of the new style fuses, the info i got regarding size to use was strictly referencing copper. not sure how one could test it, other than to experiment w/something of a known load, and use smaller wire, and see if it blows or not. or maybe contacting a mfr directly, and ask their tech engineers. regarding soldering, it seems it would be easy enough to solder directly to the board where the fuse holder is soldered, or simply use a non-metallic dowel of wood or plastic, w/the wire forced to the fuse connector, yust like a regular fuse. i actually did this once as a temporary fix, w/a fine strand of copper, when a fuse blew in one of my step-up transformers, and i didn't have a spare fuse handy...
ymmv,
doug s.
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The copper fuses I could find were rated for 600v and 225 to 450 amps. See link below
http://www.onestopbuy.com/buss/Bussmann-LPS-RK-SP-600V-Class-RK1-Fuse-225A-400A-46245.asp
(http://www.onestopbuy.com/productimages/bus-UID20-VPGO5.jpg)
I don't think this is what you had in mind.
Scotty
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The copper fuses I could find were rated for 600v and 225 to 450 amps. See link below
http://www.onestopbuy.com/buss/Bussmann-LPS-RK-SP-600V-Class-RK1-Fuse-225A-400A-46245.asp
(http://www.onestopbuy.com/productimages/bus-UID20-VPGO5.jpg)
I don't think this is what you had in mind.
Scotty
Let's make it a group buy! Then they are only $231.83 a piece!
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How can any skeptic here possibly put on an attitude. You saw the title of the thread. I mean, come on. :duh: Doesn't the kvetching grow old? There should be a '_______ - Meh' Circle, where 'fact-based' grumps can grumble and pass around the sarcasm.
I think upgrading fuses is a must for any amplifier.
Rock on.
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It is simply not cost effective for me to play around with $50 fuses. This cd player alone has 8+ fuses. :duh:
(http://www.pbase.com/levir/image/56102499.jpg)
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I doubt that many equipment manufactures would be happy about honoring a claim involving DIY or boutique fuses.
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ok James time for your imput
James already commented in the thread I linked to earlier, see the response there.
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I doubt that many equipment manufactures would be happy about honoring a claim involving DIY or boutique fuses.
Agree. When I posted in this thread, the real problem with boutique fuses is not the voltage rating, but the speed of response. Many boutique fuses are a little sketchy on fast/slow blow rating. And even if the speed is mentioned, the fuses are not really seriously tested to be 'standard speeds.
So in a circuit needing fast and you go too slow.. you equipment becomes toast.
And agree the manufacturer is not going to be happy trying to claim a warranty due to an improper fuse being used.
So IF you have a real clear promise of rating and speed etc.. Well, it still is your burden if it all goes wrong.
And I agree the best standard fuses used to be those 'lightning bolt' appearance fuse element. They were in my Forte 4a as stock.
Those allowed several just very small fuse rated bits in the longer fuse element. Rather than a full one inch wire being the fuse rated element.
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There is an old saying " a good transistor wil protect the fuse every time, by blowing 1st" :thumb:
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And at $80 the transistor better blow first! It'd be cheaper. :P
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If we are talking about the fuse on the incoming AC power, its only purpose is to prevent a fire.
If it's a rail fuse, you hope both + and - rail fuse blow nearly simultaneously,or there will be TROUBLE!
With speaker fuses we have an alternative,we can bypass the fuse with a high quality film capacitor thus eliminating most of the effects of the non-linear resistance the fuse has with regards to the passage of the variable frequency AC signal.
Scotty
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The copper fuses I could find were rated for 600v and 225 to 450 amps. See link below
http://www.onestopbuy.com/buss/Bussmann-LPS-RK-SP-600V-Class-RK1-Fuse-225A-400A-46245.asp
(http://www.onestopbuy.com/productimages/bus-UID20-VPGO5.jpg)
I don't think this is what you had in mind.
Scotty
you're right - not what i had in mind. what i had in mind is what i posted - wery small gauge copper wires, used as fuses, in the sizes indicated.
doug s.
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It is simply not cost effective for me to play around with $50 fuses. This cd player alone has 8+ fuses. :duh:
(http://www.pbase.com/levir/image/56102499.jpg)
agreed - pricey. but the amr fuses are a bit less at $13, and copper wire - if it can be werified that they will actually blow at the ratings given on the sites i linked - might be worth a try. i am on the fence as to whether they would actually do anything, but i haven't tried...
doug s.
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$18 is doable specially if UL listed for safety.
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Surely most of you have heard this old saying: If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Tony
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Surely most of you have heard this old saying: If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Tony
didja buy your bryston amp because the amp you had was broken? :wink:
doug s.
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Since when does anybody settle for 'good enough' in this hobby? If you're not tweakin' you're not trying hard enough.
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When I purchased my AMR dp-777 dac, my dealer included some AMR fuses for my Mastersound SET amp. I noticed an immediate difference in the sound, and it was an improvement in my opinion.
Given the relatively minor cost, I certainly recommend giving these a try.
Randy
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I am using the Furutechs. Couldn't get any others to compare them against. Fitted them through my entire system (eighteen in total). I was very very sceptical at first. Some time back I read somewhere on this site about upgraded fuses. Tried 1. Then got hooked. There is a noticeable difference.