AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: DecibleDude on 7 Feb 2024, 12:53 pm
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I've been trying to determine if the Mani 2 phono preamp will provide enough voltage to the 120 control amp to reach it's rated 60 wpc output without any problems. Perhaps one of you have this combo or know, because Im unable to find the answer so far. The other option is to buy the VA preamp, but it's more expensive and I've kind of been fascinated by the Mani 2 reviews. Thanks.
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Well, I don't have a phono, but I did buy into the Schitt hype a while back purchasing some headphone component pieces, enough for two computer stations. Three years later and I am replacing the parts as they fail with JDS labs stuff. Much better made.
Frank's stuff will last for a lifetime. Schitt stuff, well..... I am very confident that Frank's phono preamp will be much better sounding as well.
My two cents worth (and that is about what its worth).
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The control amp has very high gain, almost double that of a standard SET 120. This is done so the volume control need not be all the way up to mimic a "normal" power amp (it needs to be set around 3/4). This means that a source only needs to supply just over 1/2v rms to get full power out of the amp if the volume control is all the way up. If the Mani 2 can't supply 0.6v rms to the power amp you probably won't find ANY power amp that will work with it.
Dan
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What speakers do you have? If your speakers are efficient and you are not trying to fill a large room with concert level sound pressure then you will be fine.
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I have recent experience where I went down the path of buying my son a budget (but recommended on several lists) phono preamp ($125.00) , received it, tried it, sent it back, ordered the Vision Q+ (more than i had hoped to pay), and ended up buying 2 of the Vision Q+! The difference with the AVA was jaw dropping on every combination of amp, turntable, moving magnet cartridge and speakers I connected to it so I know that it wasn't just how the budget pre-amp interacted with my system. Was it worth it? I have probably $5k or more invested in a lifetime of LP's/ vinyls and adding to my collection still, so spending a bit more was worth far, far more than the sum of the parts...it was a revelation. I would put the music enjoyment factor of my small room analog system up against against anything I have ever heard costing less than a house..hahahaha..challenge is on if you live near Seattle, come on over! :) . Ps I have not heard the Mani although it was on my short list.. pss I also have the SET 120 Control Amp and the combination with the Vision Q+ is joyous.
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I have recent experience where I went down the path of buying my son a budget (but recommended on several lists) phono preamp ($150.00) , received it, tried it, sent it back, ordered the Vision Q+ (more than i had hoped to pay), and ended up buying 2 of the Vision Q+! The difference with the AVA was jaw dropping on every combination of amp, turntable, cartridge and speakers I connected to it so I know that it wasn't just how the budget pre-amp interacted with my system. Was it worth it? I have probably $5k or more invested in a lifetime of LP's/ vinyls and adding to my collection still, so spending a bit more was worth far, far more than the sum of the parts...it was a revelation. I would put the music enjoyment factor of my small room analog system up against against anything I have ever heard costing less than a house..hahahaha..challenge is on if you live near Seattle, come on over! :) . Ps I have not heard the Mani although it was on my short list.. pss I also have the SET 120 Control Amp and the combination with the Vision Q+ is joyous.
87db @ 2.83 v/1m, which I guess is about average, but not particularly efficient.
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The control amp has very high gain, almost double that of a standard SET 120. This is done so the volume control need not be all the way up to mimic a "normal" power amp (it needs to be set around 3/4). This means that a source only needs to supply just over 1/2v rms to get full power out of the amp if the volume control is all the way up. If the Mani 2 can't supply 0.6v rms to the power amp you probably won't find ANY power amp that will work with it.
Dan
Thanks Dan. It's strange that one can't find this info on Mani's site, or at least in a form that I can understand. In any event, I haven't had any trouble getting decent volumes or even quite loud at about the 10:30 to 11:00 position on the volume control with either my tuner or cd player. So, I know if any phono preamp puts out a volt it will work but why the heck they don't tell you is beyond me.
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Thanks Dan. It's strange that one can't find this info on Mani's site, or at least in a form that I can understand. In any event, I haven't had any trouble getting decent volumes or even quite loud at about the 10:30 to 11:00 position on the volume control with either my tuner or cd player. So, I know if any phono preamp puts out a volt it will work but why the heck they don't tell you is beyond me.
Did you ask them?
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A joyous combination of gear... AVA Set 120 Control Amplifier with the Vision Q+ Phono Preamp... scintillating...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261318)
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I've been trying to determine if the Mani 2 phono preamp will provide enough voltage to the 120 control amp to reach it's rated 60 wpc output without any problems. Perhaps one of you have this combo or know, because Im unable to find the answer so far. The other option is to buy the VA preamp, but it's more expensive and I've kind of been fascinated by the Mani 2 reviews. Thanks.
Schiit now has an allegedly superior phono stage called Skoll. Skoll has more impedance and capacitance settings than Mani 2 (which, however, is still available), and they can be changed with a remote control. So you'd be able to sit in your favorite chair and experiment with the settings in real time. LEDs on the front of the device show the settings. I have no opinion of the sound quality of the The Van Alstine phono stage, but it does require you to remove the cover to set internal DIP switches.
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The Mani spec page shows that it has 4 gain setting options: 33, 42, 48 and 60db.
Assuming most moving magnet cartridges have about 4mv output (or more)....and using the Sengpiel gain calculator for voltage and gain:
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm
The Mani should have no problem driving the 120 control amp with the 42 or 48 gain settings as the 42 gain with a 4mv cartridge will yield .5v output and with the 48 gain yield 1 volt output...so, if you know the cartridge being used, you can find its output: plug it's output into the calculator and see the output available with various gain settings....and as Dan said, you only need .6v output to drive the amplifier to its full power capability.
And since the Mani has a 15 day return...you can give it a try...but no way would I expect it to equal the sound quality you will get from the Vision Q+ phono stage.
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Thanks, that was helpful.
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Schiit now has an allegedly superior phono stage called Skoll. Skoll has more impedance and capacitance settings than Mani 2 (which, however, is still available), and they can be changed with a remote control. So you'd be able to sit in your favorite chair and experiment with the settings in real time. LEDs on the front of the device show the settings. I have no opinion of the sound quality of the The Van Alstine phono stage, but it does require you to remove the cover to set internal DIP switches.
My question is not relevant to the question of Shiit Mani 2/SET 120 combo, but I am confused about the new Schiit phono preamp - specifically that the settings on the phono preamp can be changed via remote control. I can see that this would be useful if you want to listen to a particular cartridge with different impedance or capacitance settings, but what is the point of having a remote for this purpose if it's to accommodate different cartridges?
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I agree. What's the use case for modifying phono preamp/ cartridge settings via a remote control on the Skoll? Set it and forget it ...
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Maybe it is for the people that have 3 tone arms and 3 cartridges mounted to one turntable and playing them all at once and don't want to get up out of their seats to make adjustments?? :lol:
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Could this spur a rebirth of the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator? ;)
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My question is not relevant to the question of Shiit Mani 2/SET 120 combo, but I am confused about the new Schiit phono preamp - specifically that the settings on the phono preamp can be changed via remote control. I can see that this would be useful if you want to listen to a particular cartridge with different impedance or capacitance settings, but what is the point of having a remote for this purpose if it's to accommodate different cartridges?
You install a cartridge. You want to know what's the best impedance or capacitance for it. You sit in your sweet spot. You use the remote to try the different values to find what you like best. With just about any other phono preamp that has adjustments for these parameters, you have to set dip switches, usually on the back of the unit or on the bottom. A few have knobs or pushbuttons. Some phono preamps, like the Van Alstine, require you to remove the cover to set the dip switches. So you dig out your tools and remove the cover. You set a value. Have you made the best choice? You go over to the preamp and change the dip switches to try a different value. Now, what did you hear a couple of minutes ago? Is it really brighter (or duller), or have you already forgotten what you heard previously? I see this as being useful. Others may not.
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You install a cartridge. You want to know what's the best impedance or capacitance for it. You sit in your sweet spot. You use the remote to try the different values to find what you like best. With just about any other phono preamp that has adjustments for these parameters, you have to set dip switches, usually on the back of the unit or on the bottom. A few have knobs or pushbuttons. Some phono preamps, like the Van Alstine, require you to remove the cover to set the dip switches. So you dig out your tools and remove the cover. You set a value. Have you made the best choice? You go over to the preamp and change the dip switches to try a different value. Now, what did you hear a couple of minutes ago? Is it really brighter (or duller), or have you already forgotten what you heard previously? I see this as being useful. Others may not.
AHA! I hadn't considered trying different values for one cartridge. That makes sense. My thoughts were "Wait a minute! You're going to have to get up and swap out the cartridges anyway..."
Thanks for the clarification!
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Perhaps they made remote adjustment to favor those who have their Sol turntable with a few extra arms containing different cartridges. Pop on a new arm real quick, push a button on the remote and in 2 minutes you're good to go.
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Perhaps they made remote adjustment to favor those who have their Sol turntable with a few extra arms containing different cartridges. Pop on a new arm real quick, push a button on the remote and in 2 minutes you're good to go.
I could be wrong, but I think the decision to proceed with Skoll came well after they decided to terminate production of Sol. Personally, I'd like them to do a tube phono preamp. Jason Stoddard gets asked about this every time they do an online show on Youtube and Facebook.
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I may be an outlier lurking in an audiophile forum. I prescribe more to the "listen to the music" vs "listen to the gear"... I once modified a set of B&W DM640 speakers with a crossover tweak from none-other than Frank Van Alstine that in the opinion of some sounded better than the mega-buck Matrix 80x's and certainly better than the early 801's.... All I can say is Bless You Frank and Team - I have never regretted spending my hard-earned money on your gear that punches (always) well above its price point that has let me enjoy the music first and foremost in a palatable way - emotion, nuance, and every other descriptor you often hear. Every time.
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Close up of the B&W DM640's - safely stored and not far away...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261529)
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My question is not relevant to the question of Shiit Mani 2/SET 120 combo, but I am confused about the new Schiit phono preamp - specifically that the settings on the phono preamp can be changed via remote control. I can see that this would be useful if you want to listen to a particular cartridge with different impedance or capacitance settings, but what is the point of having a remote for this purpose if it's to accommodate different cartridges?
My previous phonostage was a Rega Ios, it had all the controls on the front. I loved it, as Calypte said I can set a new cartridge on the fly and hear the result instantly. I don’t have to remember the sound before as I hear it instantly, I had a friend adjust it for me so I can sit and hear it.
I know it’s not something you change all the time, yes setting the loading on a cartridge is a set it and forget it thing, but it’s so much easier when you are setting up to just change on the fly.
I have never had a phonostage with dip switches, hated those fiddly things. Once you get a phonostage with controls on the from or in this case with remote, you are never going back to dip switches.
I have now gone one better; I have a new phonostage which is transimpedance. It’s a current mode phonostage, so I don’t to do anything as it gets all the info it needs from the cartridge itself, so it sets everything up correctly for the cartridge.
I am now using Channel D's Lino C 3.3 phonostage.
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To switch phono gain on the fly, simply run the Vision Q+ with the cover off. No big deal.
Frank