AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: jeffreybehr on 21 Feb 2016, 05:05 am

Title: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 21 Feb 2016, 05:05 am
First, a little about me.  I'm a chubby 72-year-old who has been retired for almost 16 years (lucky me!) and has been an audiofool since my mid-teens.  I've had dozens of systems over the decades, but one thing that hasn't changed is my love of large-scale Classical and movie music and movies.

I bought a pair of Vandersteen 5As perhaps a half-dozen years ago, improved them slightly (note 1), bought a pair of 650-into-8 McCormack DNA-750 poweramps that I improved substantially, and thought I had the very-best-sounding system I could imagine.  But...a couple years later I got tired of what I perceived to be occasional hardness and started looking around.  Meanwhile, I had fallen under the influence of audio-guru Jeffrey Glowacki of Sonic Craft; he told me of a speaker, the Super-7s, that he had heard at Danny's shop--they're long-time buddies--that he thought was simply excellent overall--not the best at anything, 'just' simply excellent overall--that I really ought to hear.  I contacted Danny, he pointed me at a pair sort of on demo in Albuquerque, and after many conversations and a couple goodguys having to move the speakers to a different house, etc., a friend and I drove over (c. 425 miles one way), heard them, and brought them home.  The latter occurred during a late-winter snowstorm in northern AZ, but we got them and us home safely.

Here's what they looked like early...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2014Mar02_inplace1_1200w_zps2cc27138.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2014Mar02_inplace1_1200w_zps2cc27138.jpg.html)
Note the Coincident Frankenstein II 8-Watt SET monoamps, the speakers' 'flying nun' bases, and the lack of toe-in.  Note also the pair of WAVAC 805-based SET monoamps (the version that retailed for $22K and that also had been retrieved in Albuquerque) far right in the pic.  Altho both pairs of these amps warmed the air in the musicroom nicely, neither warmed my heart, so I sold them. 

Bought one and then two Nelson Pass First Watt J2s...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg.html)
...25WPC-into-8, all-class-A, all-JFET stereo poweramps...
http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/library/J2%20amps?sort=3&page=1
...and wired the two channels in parallel for 25 Watts per chassis into 8 and 50 Watts per chassis into 4.. (Note the improved base of the S7s.)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2014Nov11_musicroom_1500w_zpsc13eed7e.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2014Nov11_musicroom_1500w_zpsc13eed7e.jpg.html)
They sounded very smooth, detailed, and musical, and I improved some parts in them and used them for quite a while.

During the last couple years, I alternated a couple times between the S7s and a pair of much-loved, much-improved Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, and this January (2016) after I had taken the Avantis to an audio-club meeting, the S7s went back into the system.  While the Avantis were in active duty, I had bought a 250WPC c-j ET250S, stereo, hybrid poweramp that sounded excellent with them, and I left that in the system when I reinstalled the S7s.  In spite of having about 220WPC more power than needed, the ET250S sounded excellent on the S7s, too, so that's where the system is now.  FWIW, since there's now 250WPC driving the panels of the S7s, I installed a 110Hz HP filter before the amp.  (I used no such filter while using the SETs or 50-Watt J2s.) 

Since the system sounded and sounds SO good, I decided to improve crossover parts from the good-to-very-good stuff Danny used to the best I could manage (2).  Without boring you with too much detail, I've replaced the 10uF tweeter-series caps with 10uF combination of two Platinums and a smaller SoniCap-I, the 15uF MR-shunt cap with 13uF of SoniCap 'propylenes plus 2uF of Platinums, and the 56uF MR-comp-network-shunt cap with 56uF of SoniCap 'propylenes and a half-mic of Platinum.  All three coils are now or will be Goertz/Bridgeport copper-foils...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb03_15uF%20replaced_1500w_zpsy2x1z5rk.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb03_15uF%20replaced_1500w_zpsy2x1z5rk.jpg.html)

The wiring will be all Neotec-UPOCC-solid-in-Teflon--23g. silver on the tweeter and 18g. copper plus 24g. silver on the MR.  These will be soldered to speakercable I had Sonic Craft make--again all Neotec UPOCC-silver-in-Teflon--18g. stranded plus 22-, 24-, and 26g. solid per pole.  The bass-system wiring I'm not touching except I've replaced the box-to-amp cable with a longer one.

The system sounds REALLY good--EXCELLENT in all aspects but perhaps a tiny bit less transparent than the best systems I've ever had (3), but they're also a good bit more spacious sounding and more extended and have the highest-quality bass I've ever heard.  I spent considerable time adjusting the bass-amps' controls (4) to achieve that bass quality and still have a bit to go.  FWIW, I use 31-band equalizers in the bass system; they help a lot.

So the S7s are my keep-for-a-long-while speakers, while the c-j ET250s is that poweramp.  Thursday and Friday I received, installed on the back wall, and tweaked a pair of Rythmic F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers, and the system sounds even better.   :green:


(1) with a crossover as complicated as this...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Vandersteen%205as/10Jun2011_1uFPltnmoverall_1280w.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Vandersteen%205as/10Jun2011_1uFPltnmoverall_1280w.jpg.html)
...'slightly' is all I could manage.   :wink:

(2) Fortunately, my friendship with Glowacki allowed me to accumulate a bunch of 5-star-quality SoniCap Platinum caps, sometimes used take-outs, sometimes preproduction versions, etc., so this wasn't unaffordable.

(3) The Avantii IIIs and V-steen 5As were best at transparency...or at least that's what my feeble memory indicates.

(4) the more flexible electronic devices are, the longer it takes to get them adjusted correctly and the easier it is to adjust them the wrong way.   :duh:

I hope other S7 owners will post here; maybe we can find all of them.  As of Feb. 24, 2016, I know of 3 pairs--mine, Danny's, and an acquaintance's in Flagstaff, AZ.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 21 Feb 2016, 06:38 pm
I'm a skinny 79-year-old, but I share some of your audio history. I actually have the GR LS-9s and continue to be amazed by them. They replaced a very expensive full-range ESL. Although they had great sound, they just did not have the dynamic range that the 9's have and I couldn't live with that.
You use a bass equalizer? Which one? I have played with the parametric EQ on the A370 servos for hours but I'm not q-u-i-t-e there yet.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 21 Feb 2016, 10:49 pm
I'm a skinny 79-year-old, but I share some of your audio history. I actually have the GR LS-9s and continue to be amazed by them. They replaced a very expensive full-range ESL. Although they had great sound, they just did not have the dynamic range that the 9's have and I couldn't live with that.
You use a bass equalizer? Which one? I have played with the parametric EQ on the A370 servos for hours but I'm not q-u-i-t-e there yet.

Hi, THROW.  Yes, with my Super-7s' bass channels I use a pair of single-channel Dukane 31-band grafic eqs...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21_Dukane1_1500w_zps7owl23kc.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21_Dukane1_1500w_zps7owl23kc.jpg.html)
...can't find the model #--and a Phonic Personal Audio Assistant II, the model earlier than this one--
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phonic-PAA3-Handheld-31-Band-Spectrum-Personal-Audio-Analyzer-with-USB-Interface-/371480898114?hash=item567dfcaa42:g:Ar0AAOSwc0FUpHLq
...for displaying the system-and-room response.  Some such machine is essential in knowing which frequency bands to increase or decrease to smooth the bass peaks and valleys in our rooms. My room is excellent in other ways, but it's almost square at 21' wide and 19' deep, and it has peaks at 27- and 30Hz, making a huge rise in bottom-octave energy.

I recently purchased a RANE-brand 3-band PEQ, model FPE 13...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rane-FPE-PE-13-rack-mount-parametric-equalizer-pair-RS-1-and-power-extension-/222020736204?hash=item33b17794cc:g:IuAAAOSwPc9Wu7UL
...and this pair appears to be quite reasonably priced.  (If you buy one or two, be sure you get the outboard powersupply 'RS 1' which is almost $100 each if purchased separately.) 
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20front_1500w_zpszyatqd4c.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20front_1500w_zpszyatqd4c.jpg.html)

This unit is rather small--only one-half rack width--
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20overall_1500w_zps86hgwm7l.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20overall_1500w_zps86hgwm7l.jpg.html)

It has no RCA-phono inputs/outputs; being a commercial product it does have XLRs and 1/4" phone plugs.  I bought 1/4"-phone-to-RCA-female adapters for $4-odd per pair at a local guitar center.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20rear_1500w_zpsy3rirn7c.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21%20Rane%20FPE%2013%20rear_1500w_zpsy3rirn7c.jpg.html)
What attracted me to this piece is that the three bands are identical and start at 10Hz(!), so all can be used to smooth the bass.  Haven't yet connected it.  If it proves useful in replacement of the Dukanes, I'll buy another. 

Here's one channel's low-bass adjustments on the Dukane:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21_Dukane%20close_1500w_zpsottzjfci.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb21_Dukane%20close_1500w_zpsottzjfci.jpg.html)
...and the low-bass response is still so strong and irregular that I've turned on the rumble filters--and that helps some.

So far, I've had no luck at adjusting the amps' PEQs.  I've been using my noise generator's 1/20-octave tones, but perhaps they're still too wide to allow me to hear or measure when I have the frequency knobs in the right place.  I'll use my sinewave generator* next time.  And I've recently doubled my problem by buying a pair of Rythmik F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers that use the same frontend on their 550-Watt amps.

We'll see.    :wink:


* one can tell I'm an amateur at this--pros would call it an oscillator.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 22 Feb 2016, 01:37 pm
Man oh man, Jeffrey. You go all out. Thanks for the very thorough reply. Not sure what to do with all that great info yet though. Gotta think about it some more.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 22 Feb 2016, 05:06 pm
Quote
Yes, with my Super-7s' bass channels I use a pair of single-channel Dukane 31-band grafic eq   

Maybe thats where your last bit of transparency is taken, with the extra cables and e.q. 

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 22 Feb 2016, 05:23 pm
Maybe thats where your last bit of transparency is taken, with the extra cables and e.q. 

Rocket_Ronny

Probably not; they're in the bass channels only.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 22 Feb 2016, 06:01 pm
Probably not; they're in the bass channels only.

Agreed. That's why I feel free to insert a Gradient DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 Dual Core between my pre-amp and subs, only.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Feb 2016, 08:05 pm
Jeffrey,

If you are having to adjust plus and minus 12db each way in the lower end then you have some real room related issues. I'd really consider a pair of our sealed 12" servo subs in the back of the room to try and even out your room issues. It should help a lot.

I don't get anywhere near that much low frequency variation in my room. But I am using a combination of diffusers and large tube traps. 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Silverpair3.jpg)

I once thought I'd never sell my pair, but with the impending move coming up and the realization that I have way more demo speakers around here than I can ever listen to, I then have to tell myself not to get so emotionally attached to any one pair of speakers. So I would consider letting them go to a good home if the price was right.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Feb 2016, 08:28 pm
Danny-
Are you having the same thoughts about the line arrays?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Feb 2016, 08:30 pm
Danny-
Are you having the same thoughts about the line arrays?

What line arrays would that be?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Feb 2016, 08:35 pm
My mistake for assuming you knew which ones I was addressing. The open baffle ones with Neo-10's, Neo-3's and twin servo driven 3-12" subs.   
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Feb 2016, 08:39 pm
My mistake for assuming you knew which ones I was addressing. The open baffle ones with Neo-10's, Neo-3's and twin servo driven 3-12" subs.   

Oh that pair. They were sent to a customer in Panama. They were the best sounding pair of speakers that I have ever heard. I can't get the drivers for them right now so I am trying not to think about them. Otherwise, I'd be building me a pair of them.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/616inroom8.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Feb 2016, 10:43 pm
OK - thanks for crushing that dream for me!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jcotner on 23 Feb 2016, 11:07 pm
I once thought I'd never sell my pair, but with the impending move coming up and the realization that I have way more demo speakers around here than I can ever listen to, I then have to tell myself not to get so emotionally attached to any one pair of speakers. So I would consider letting them go to a good home if the price was right.

And I'm telling you this is like the dog waiting for a piece of steak to fall from the table. When Danny is selling personal speakers, it's a good time to buy. I got a pair his wife really liked and I'm happy I did. His personal speakers have every last tweak in them and fantastic sounds even better!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 23 Feb 2016, 11:20 pm
And I'm telling you this is like the dog waiting for a piece of steak to fall from the table. When Danny is selling personal speakers, it's a good time to buy. I got a pair his wife really liked and I'm happy I did. His personal speakers have every last tweak in them and fantastic sounds even better!
I already have too many speakers (maybe I should sell all of them), but the Super 7's are something special.  Combine the best of the spekers that I have (Super V's and LS 6'es) into 1 setup, then take it up another notch.  :thumb: Would be tempted if I could figure out how to pull it off.

I can only imagine how good the OB Neo3/Neo10's sound :drool:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 24 Feb 2016, 12:07 am
Never did I return from the RMAF thinking I had heard something superior to my LS9's... until I heard the Super7's.  But even they couldn't match those latest line arrays.  Sitting in with Danny, Gary Dodd, and Rich Hollis in Danny's living room.... I don't think I'll ever hear anything that good  :green:.  And they were certainly out of my price range.  :o
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 24 Feb 2016, 03:42 am
Jeffrey,

If you are having to adjust plus and minus 12db each way in the lower end then you have some real room related issues.  YUP; it's almost square at 21' w. by 19' deep.
I'd really consider a pair of our sealed 12" servo subs in the back of the room to try and even out your room issues. It should help a lot.

I don't get anywhere near that much low frequency variation in my room. But I am using a combination of diffusers and large tube traps. 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Silverpair3.jpg)

I once thought I'd never sell my pair, but with the impending move coming up and the realization that I have way more demo speakers around here than I can ever listen to, I then have to tell myself not to get so emotionally attached to any one pair of speakers. So I would consider letting them go to a good home if the price was right.

Danny--
How about a few pics of your crossovers, pls?

What are the big, blue, tubed poweramps?

And FWIW, I too am using bass traps, two BIG ones:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/Basstraps/06Mar2012_southtrap_1000w.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/Basstraps/06Mar2012_southtrap_1000w.jpg.html)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/Basstraps/05May2012_fromlisteningposition_1000w.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/Basstraps/05May2012_fromlisteningposition_1000w.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: JerryM on 24 Feb 2016, 04:50 am
What are the big, blue, tubed poweramps?

Those are Danny's 'Blue Monsters'. Statement amps from master builder Gary Dodd.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jcotner on 24 Feb 2016, 05:09 am
Danny--
How about a few pics of your crossovers, pls?

I deleted my earlier post because I confused your earlier post referencing active EQ
with this last question regarding pictures of crossovers.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 26 Feb 2016, 09:46 pm
I think I may have slightly diverted the purpose of this thread with my inquiry to Danny about the line arrays so let me see if I can get it back on track. I am an owner of the Super-7’s. I bought the used pair that was for sale a little over a year ago mentioned in the thread prior to this one (Super-7s how are they doing?). My pair are a darker shade of silver than Jeffrey’s. I bought them purely on reputation and some input from other Audiocircle members that heard them at RMAF and could compare them to speakers I am familiar with. I have never bought any piece of audio equipment in this manner before but fortunately for me I am very happy I did so – I  remember wishing I had pursued purchasing a pair when they were initially sold after the RMAF show. Well I got my second opportunity and jumped all over it.

It’s a little embarrassing to say I still have not determined their optimum position yet but that’s mainly because when I sit down to listen I prefer to listen than spend time fooling around with positioning. The sound I am getting exceeds any set-up I have had prior to the Super-7’s. I have the speakers sitting on unspiked Sound Anchor bases I had made for previous speakers to allow me to slide them around to experiment with positioning when I get the itch to do so. I have a 15W x 24L room with cathedral ceiling and carpet. The speakers are about 9 feet from the front wall and about 3.5 feet from the side walls. Currently I am using a near field set-up (8 foot equilateral triangle). I have GIK soffit bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and GIK Monster Traps and PI Audio Diffusers on the wall between the soffit traps. Thanks to Danny for the PI Audio diffuser recommendation – they work very well with these speakers. I have tried both Monster Traps and diffusers at the first reflection points on the side walls with no audible impact at all. I was fortunate enough to acquire a used Spatial Audio Black Hole a year and a half ago which does an admirable job of cleaning up the bass. If anyone out there has one they are willing to sell I would be interested in acquiring a second one.

I have a Marantz Reference SA7 CD player, SC11S1 preamp, and SM11S1 stereo amplifier all resting in a HRS SXR rack with M3X isolation bases. Power supply is provided by a RGPC 240V substation, 400S PLC, and power cords. Servo amps are plugged into wall receptacles on a circuit separate from the substation. I have Zenwave D4 interconnect cables and BEL speaker cables.

So here is what I’d like to ask the Super-7 owners out there. How much toe-in do you have on your speakers? Where are your speakers with respect to your listening room size and listening position? Have you experimented with SS and tube electronics on your speakers and which do you prefer?

Jeffrey – where do you have your Rythmik F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers set up in your room?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 26 Feb 2016, 11:07 pm
I think I may have slightly diverted the purpose of this thread with my inquiry to Danny about the line arrays so let me see if I can get it back on track. I am an owner of the Super-7’s.  Great; we've found four now.  :-)

I bought the used pair that was for sale a little over a year ago mentioned in the thread prior to this one (Super-7s how are they doing?). My pair are a darker shade of silver than Jeffrey’s. I bought them purely on reputation and some input from other Audiocircle members that heard them at RMAF and could compare them to speakers I am familiar with. I have never bought any piece of audio equipment in this manner before but fortunately for me I am very happy I did so – I  remember wishing I had pursued purchasing a pair when they were initially sold after the RMAF show. Well I got my second opportunity and jumped all over it.

It’s a little embarrassing to say I still have not determined their optimum position yet but that’s mainly because when I sit down to listen I prefer to listen than spend time fooling around with positioning. The sound I am getting exceeds any set-up I have had prior to the Super-7’s. I have the speakers sitting on unspiked Sound Anchor bases I had made for previous speakers to allow me to slide them around to experiment with positioning when I get the itch to do so. I have a 15W x 24L room with cathedral ceiling and carpet. The speakers are about 9 feet from the front wall and about 3.5 feet from the side walls. Currently I am using a near field set-up (8 foot equilateral triangle). I have GIK soffit bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and GIK Monster Traps and PI Audio Diffusers on the wall between the soffit traps. Thanks to Danny for the PI Audio diffuser recommendation – they work very well with these speakers. I have tried both Monster Traps and diffusers at the first reflection points on the side walls with no audible impact at all. I was fortunate enough to acquire a used Spatial Audio Black Hole a year and a half ago which does an admirable job of cleaning up the bass. If anyone out there has one they are willing to sell I would be interested in acquiring a second one.

I have a Marantz Reference SA7 CD player, SC11S1 preamp, and SM11S1 stereo amplifier all resting in a HRS SXR rack with M3X isolation bases. Power supply is provided by a RGPC 240V substation, 400S PLC, and power cords. Servo amps are plugged into wall receptacles on a circuit separate from the substation. I have Zenwave D4 interconnect cables and BEL speaker cables.

So here is what I’d like to ask the Super-7 owners out there. How much toe-in do you have on your speakers?  Mine are toed so that I can barely see any of the inner sides of the inner panels.  I guess the tweeters intersect just a few feet behind my head.

Where are your speakers with respect to your listening room size and listening position?  My room is 21' wide and 19' deep.  I sit maybe 4' from the back wall; the rear of the speakers' panels are about 5' from the front wall.  The inside edges of the speakers are about 9' apart and there's probably 5' to the outside of each system.  I sit about 10' away from the line of the speakers.  Because of the 8-1/2'-wide screen between the speakers, my soundstage is, generally, wider than deeper but with no hole in the middle.

Have you experimented with SS and tube electronics on your speakers and which do you prefer?  I've driven mine with both plus a hybrid.   Coincident Frankensteins (note 1) had enough power for me but sounded edgy, probably the result of their cheap Solen 'propylene main-powersupply caps and gobs of magnetic wire and other parts in them.  WAVAC 805-based SETs (2) were more powerful and NOT edgy or unattractive in any way, but they sounded simply boring.  Nelson Pass's First Watt J2 (3) amps sounded excellent.  I had (with Pass's advice and approval) wired the 2 channels of each amp into parallel, resulting in a pair of monoamps with 25 Watts into 8 and 50 into 4, per chassis.  They were very detailed, smooth, and attractive sounding.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg.html)

My current amp, purchased when I was using the 87dB-(in)sensitive Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, is a conrad-johnson ET250S, a hybrid stereo amp rated at 250WPC into 8 and 400WPC into 4.  I love the overall sounds of this amp so much I left it in the system when I reinstalled the S7s this January.

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2105Nov09_amp%20on%20pad%20close_1800w_zpsfttewxsj.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2105Nov09_amp%20on%20pad%20close_1800w_zpsfttewxsj.jpg.html)

With the three lower-power amps, I used no line-level hi-pass filter(4), but with more than 400WPC available (short-term), I now use a pair of caps (0.01uF each of SoniCap Platinum and Jupiter Copper Foil Paper'n'Wax) creating a high-pass filter at c. 110Hz.  These caps are barely visible as part of the input jacks, added volume pot, jumpercables, and blue-and-orange wiring at the rear of the amp.  Here's a better pic.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2016Mar03_input%20filters%20amp%20jacks_1500w_zpsewccqvqh.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2016Mar03_input%20filters%20amp%20jacks_1500w_zpsewccqvqh.jpg.html)


Jeffrey – where do you have your Rythmik F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers set up in your room?  They're just forward of the back wall, left and right of the listening position.  They're set for true subwoofing, that being bottom octave and below, with the LP filter set at 25Hz.  See
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-761.html , post 22823 and
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-762.html
...post 22833.

(1) 300B-based 8-Watt SET monoamps
(2) the $21K per pair version
(3) 15WPC-into-8 stereo amps that use only JFETs as transistors.  See http://www.firstwatt.com/j2.html
(4) I remember asking Danny what filter point I should use on a high-pass filter with these smaller amps.  We went back and forth with him answering every number I offered to him (as in 200Hz?  100Hz?  50Hz?  25Hz?  None at all?) with an 'OK'.  I believe he then said something like my low-power amps were not able to overdrive the panels, so it didn't much matter.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 27 Feb 2016, 02:04 am
I reread your post but didn't see your preamp mentioned. What are you using? Do you prefer the CJ ET250s over the First Watt J2s?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 27 Feb 2016, 05:42 am
I reread your post but didn't see your preamp mentioned. What are you using? Do you prefer the CJ ET250s over the First Watt J2s?

Preamp is a much-improved c-j MET1, a six-channel, all-tubes unit that I LOVE.  Your second question is more difficult to answer.  I certainly love the sounds of the ET250s so much I don't want to bother returning the J2s into the system.  So yes, I guess I do prefer the ET250S to the J2, but it might be due to pure laziness.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 1 Mar 2016, 09:14 pm
I own the pair that was  first shown at RMAF. They have the old style wave guides. I’ve upgraded all the caps ( except the notch filters which is the next upgrade I plan ) to Juniper Copper Foil and mounted them on 2"maple slaps with Mapleshade brass footersand rewired the x-over and speakers with Jupiter cotton covered copper, which has made a very nice inprovment.
 My room is 22’x30’ with one end being half an octagon ( in my gallery is a diagram of the room, it’s in the acoustic circle album ) the speaker are located 15’ from back wall, 6’ from side wall, 8.5’ apart and 12’-13 from LP. Right now I have with a 9 degree toe in, but I’m still playing with it. The sub is centered between speakers. The room has Jeff Hedback designed acoustical treatment along with some diy treatments.

I have a modified Mac Mini, exasound e20 dac, Modded Ncore400 dual mono amp, cables are Mapleshade and TWL PC on the subs. All source equipment runs off battery and the amps are on 2 dedicated circuits that come straight off the output of my inverter using #8 cryoed wire.

I’m working on a balanced tube buffer based on a Gary Dodd design that I hope to have finished and burned in by end of the month.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128519)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128520)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=138287)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 1 Mar 2016, 11:01 pm
Wow - nice set-up and what a great sized room for your system. I feel a little outclassed by you guys in that I have not done anything to the crossovers, mainly because I haven't ever attempted this kind of project. Both you and Jeffrey have skills I would like to acquire. I'm going to attempt to put Danny on the spot here - do your pair of Super-7s have the original passive crossovers or have you changed them since they were built?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 1 Mar 2016, 11:07 pm
Wow - nice set-up and what a great sized room for your system. I feel a little outclassed by you guys in that I have not done anything to the crossovers, mainly because I haven't ever attempted this kind of project. Both you and Jeffrey have skills I would like to acquire. I'm going to attempt to put Danny on the spot here - do your pair of Super-7s have the original passive crossovers or have you changed them since they were built?

My pair has what I fell like are the best parts for the job.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 1 Mar 2016, 11:20 pm
My pair has what I fell like are the best parts for the job.

And you're not telling what those parts are, huh?

 :?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 2 Mar 2016, 12:05 am
I own the pair that was  first shown at RMAF. They have the old style wave guides.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128519)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=138287)

Welcome, Mike.  Your crossovers look very well isolated and stable.  Beyond this...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb03_15uF%20replaced_1500w_zpsy2x1z5rk.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Serenity%20Super-7%20speakers/2016Feb03_15uF%20replaced_1500w_zpsy2x1z5rk.jpg.html)

...I haven't had the ambition to move beyond adding Dynamat Ext. to the 4 granite plates.  But there's a lot done so far.  The tweeter hi-pass cap is ALL SoniCap Platinums*; the MR-shunt cap is now 13uF of SoniCap-Is** plus 2uF of Platinums, soon to be replaced with 10.5uF of SoniCap-Is and 4.5uF of Platinums, and the MR-comp. network cap is 56uF of SoniCap-Is plus a 0.33uF Platinum, with the latter soon to be replaced by a 0.47uF Platinum (just because I have them and need to use them in something before I get smarter than I am right now and QUIT this foolishness.)  :roll:  The tweeter-shunt coil is now a Goertz/Bridgeport copper-foil, and I have same-type coils to replace the other two.  I also have Neotec UPOCC-in-Teflon solid wire, copper and silver, to replace all wiring.


* The Platinums are made of Teflon-alloy film and tinfoil
** SoniCap Gen. Is are metalized polypropylene
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 2 Mar 2016, 02:18 am
A bigger difference will be to change the 16 gauge Erse coils to copper foil wax Jantzens......way, way better.  Use the 12 gauge ones for the mid range and 16 gauge ones for the tweeter.  Go into the inside of the coil and out the outside....much better sound this way.  I know Danny does not like the Janztens but I have A/Bed the Erse coils versus the Jantzen wax foils and the wax foils are in another whole league.  Way more information, low level detail, faster, more dynamic.....just plain more real.  This was used and tested on my own speaker that uses a single Neo 10 and a single Neo 3 on an open baffle (fantastic sound, by the way).  I am using a Sonic cap with WA Quantum chip on it for the tweeter series cap.....bypassed by Jupiter copper foil .1 and my modified Wima .15 cap.  The cap on the midrange circuit is a Rike cap bypassed by a Jupiter copper foil.  Wire is Neotech 14 and 20 gauge litz braid wire.  Ground Enhancer hardwired in as well.  Everything hardwired.....right into the amplifier.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=138305)


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 2 Mar 2016, 12:00 pm
Ric-
Would you mind sharing what preamp and amp you are using with your speakers? Since you state you have a similar design with the Neo drivers just looking for another data point for what type (SS versus tubes) of equipment different users have in their set-up.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Mar 2016, 01:56 pm
Yeah, I am not  fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound. The Erse inductors sound much cleaner. And if you want a good foil inductor the Alpha Core or Erse foil inductors are very nice.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Mar 2016, 01:58 pm
Yeah, I am not  fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound.
Maybe two wrongs make a right in this case?   :dunno:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Mar 2016, 02:10 pm
I compared the Jantzen to the same gauge Erse and it was really no comparison. So I couldn't find anything "right" about the Jantzen coils. They sounded a lot like an iron core inductor to me. They sounded kind of smeared and muddy.

They are the lowest cost inductors out there for a reason. Recycled Copper mixed to low purity is much less expensive to produce. Even after shipping them from China to Europe and then to the US and with duty added to them and shipping costs from around the world they are still cheaper. And raw materials like Copper cost the same everywhere. So typically China or any other country has no cost advantage over the US.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 2 Mar 2016, 03:29 pm
They sounded kind of smeared and muddy.
Most like that though.  That's sounds tube like.   :P
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Mar 2016, 03:56 pm
Most like that though.  That's sounds tube like.   :P

Not my tubes.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: londonbarn on 2 Mar 2016, 05:57 pm
Yeah, mine neither.... No muddy sounds from my  EAR V-20...  no siree...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 2 Mar 2016, 06:06 pm
Not my tubes.
Not my tubes either.  If your tube amps are sounding muddy it's time to expand the your tube amp experience and find one that doesn't.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 2 Mar 2016, 07:10 pm
It could also be the tubes and not the amp.

With the stock tubes, my PrimaLuna Prologue 4 has a nice warm, smooth sound but lacks a cleanness and detail that I know is there because I can hear it with my SS amps. After swapping the tubes for ones that are more articulate and detailed I got the cleanness and detail of the SS amps but still had the warmth and smoothness of the tube amps.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 2 Mar 2016, 08:20 pm
Smeared, muddy, soft, and even warm are descriptions of the worst tube amps from the 60's and earlier. Good tube amp design left behind that sound decades ago, but that perception of tube sound persists amongst non-hardcore audiophiles. The adjectives used to describe the sound of late 60's and 70's solid state amps---hard, cold, brittle, etched---is likewise long gone from the sound of good ss amp design. The better each discipline has become, the more they sound alike. Still, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses, and each is best suited to different types of drivers and loudspeaker designs.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 3 Mar 2016, 03:20 am
Sorry Danny, you are wrong on this one.  I doubt that you listened to the new wax foils....you probably listened to the ones that have film inside.  These use paper and wax.  They completely destroy the sound of the Erse coils you use in all your speakers.  Exactly the opposite of what you said.  The Erse coils sound muddy, muddy and more muddy.  The Wax foils sound glorious.  I trust my ears.  Maybe Mike or Jeff will try them and report back....folks, trust your ears....not someone elses.  Again, these are the new WAX and PAPER coil foils that have only been available for a couple of years.  I have never tried the older film ones.  Why would I use a coil that sounds worse?  No way would I ever go back to the Erse 16 gauge super cheap coils.  They don't pass half the info.

Bye the way, Parts Express (the Jantzen dealer) does not carry many values and none of the 12 gauge that you would want for the midrange.  You must custom order them from Parts Express....depending on when they place their orders could take as long as 2 months.  You can get right away a 16 gauge to try on the tweeter......but the midrange one is the glory one......makes more difference.

These coils cost considerably more than the 16 gauge Erse coils (especially the 12 gauge ones)....they are not cheap.

Before I tried these coils I tried the Jensen 12 gauge paper wax foil coils that I ordered directly from Denmark for about $160 delivered (2X .56mh).  These were really muddy as well (probably the super thick foil).......that is why I ordered the Jantzens to see if they were any good.......indeed they are.  The Jensens coils are used by Vapor Audio so I thought they must be good.  Trust no ones ears but your own.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2016, 05:18 pm
Sorry Danny, you are wrong on this one.  I doubt that you listened to the new wax foils....you probably listened to the ones that have film inside.  These use paper and wax.  They completely destroy the sound of the Erse coils you use in all your speakers.  Exactly the opposite of what you said.  The Erse coils sound muddy, muddy and more muddy.  The Wax foils sound glorious.  I trust my ears.  Maybe Mike or Jeff will try them and report back....folks, trust your ears....not someone elses.  Again, these are the new WAX and PAPER coil foils that have only been available for a couple of years.  I have never tried the older film ones.  Why would I use a coil that sounds worse?  No way would I ever go back to the Erse 16 gauge super cheap coils.  They don't pass half the info.

Bye the way, Parts Express (the Jantzen dealer) does not carry many values and none of the 12 gauge that you would want for the midrange.  You must custom order them from Parts Express....depending on when they place their orders could take as long as 2 months.  You can get right away a 16 gauge to try on the tweeter......but the midrange one is the glory one......makes more difference.

These coils cost considerably more than the 16 gauge Erse coils (especially the 12 gauge ones)....they are not cheap.

Before I tried these coils I tried the Jensen 12 gauge paper wax foil coils that I ordered directly from Denmark for about $160 delivered (2X .56mh).  These were really muddy as well (probably the super thick foil).......that is why I ordered the Jantzens to see if they were any good.......indeed they are.  The Jensens coils are used by Vapor Audio so I thought they must be good.  Trust no ones ears but your own.

It may have been the older version that I tried. I don't have them here anymore and cannot confirm. I still hesitate to use inductors made from recycled material that is low purity though.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 3 Mar 2016, 05:39 pm
Because Erse states on their website that Jantzen uses recycled copper does not make it so.....especially for these newer ones.  They have been claiming this for years. 

Here is what Danny is quoting: http://www.erseaudio.com/Purity-Guarantee

You can quote me here:  "The 12 gauge Jantzen wax foil coils sound way more transparent than the 16 gauge Erse wire wound coils used on a Neo 10".  This has been tested by the most sensitive thing known to man.....the human ear.

I have never listened to the Erse, Alpha Core, Mundorf, Dueland foil coils or any other coils.  Only to those mentioned.  There may be better coils than the Jantzen wax foils.

Danny, the only way to know what I say is correct or not is to listen to them.  Custom order some 12 gauge wax foils for the midrange on your Super 7 and install them with the input going into the center of the coil and report back......you will be amazed!.  Meanwhile, you can order some 14 and 16 gauge ones and try them on the tweeter.

The Erse wire wound coils are fine for your less expensive kits....but when using great midranges on an open baffle (like the Neo 8/10, TGKs and your new expensive mids, upcoming coax?) you really need more transparent parts for the xover, otherwise they are being held back.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2016, 05:52 pm
Because Erse states on their website that Jantzen uses recycled copper does not make it so.....especially for these newer ones.  They have been claiming this for years. 

Here is what Danny is quoting: http://www.erseaudio.com/Purity-Guarantee

You can quote me here:  "The Jantzen wax foil coils sound way more transparent than the 16 gauge Erse wire wound coils".  This has been tested by the most sensitive thing known to man.....the human ear.

I have never listened to the Erse, Alpha Core, Mundorf, Dueland foil coils or any other coils.  Only to those mentioned.  There may be better coils than the Jantzen wax foils.

I had an e-mail discussion with someone from Jantzen that did not deny the use of recycled material in their Chinese made inductors. They had never independently had the purity tested and they didn't really seemed to concerned by it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 3 Mar 2016, 07:35 pm
The only truth in audio is how something sounds.  Whether or not these newer coils (that you have not heard) are made from old tin cans or whatever.......what I know is that they sound glorious.  If you are interested in glorious sound then they are worth trying.  Nothing tried=nothing gained.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Mar 2016, 08:26 pm
For me it always comes back to how does it sound.

Ric, You might want to try some of the other brands of foil inductors.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 3 Mar 2016, 09:36 pm
I am very happy with these inductors (totally trouncing the 16 gauge Erse wire and 12 gauge wax/foil Jensen).  If you have some 12 gauge .56 mh foil coils then send them to me (this is for anyone, not just Danny).  I will evaluate them versus the Jantzen and let everyone know what I hear.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 4 Mar 2016, 01:10 am
The battle of the golden ears! I have products from both gentlemen, a pair of Danny's superb OB/Dipole subs (which I will be removing from their old W-frames and putting in the far superior H-frames I just got from Jay---Captainhemo), and Ric's seriously-modified Audible Illusions Modulus 2 pre-amp. Both gents have very high standards in sound quality, highly-developed listening skills, and world-class systems. What's a boy to make of their disagreement?!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Mar 2016, 01:32 am
The battle of the golden ears! I have products from both gentlemen, a pair of Danny's superb OB/Dipole subs (which I will be removing from their old W-frames and putting in the far superior H-frames I just got from Jay---Captainhemo), and Ric's seriously-modified Audible Illusions Modulus 2 pre-amp. Both gents have very high standards in sound quality, highly-developed listening skills, and world-class systems. What's a boy to make of their disagreement?!

Not much of a disagreement really. It sounds like we have listened to and compared two different things. What I had wasn't the paper and wax verity, and even if the foil was a low grade Copper, it still might sound really good. But Ric hasn't listened to the other types of foil inductors like the others that I stock. I bet if you put us in the same room with the same gear we would probably come to the same conclusions.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 4 Mar 2016, 04:35 am
Yeah, I was jesting. You and Ric agree on too many other things to hear the coils differently.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Mar 2016, 08:46 pm
Another Super 7 owner checking in here.  Guess we are up to 5 now  :thumb:

The Super 7's are amazing.  How good?  Well I have had a lot of speakers in my life (including some very good DIY ones I built), and there is a thriving audiophile scene here in CO so I've heard a ton of great speakers.  Plus I've done a little bit of listening to some speakers at Rocky Mountain Audiofest over the last 10 years  :o :lol: 

The Super 7's are the best speakers I've ever heard, except for the OB Line Array's that Danny built for Mockingbird Audio.  How good are the S7's?  Well if you haven't noticed, I went from a fairly prolific poster here on AC to posting pretty much zero.  And it's mainly because I no longer have that little nagging voice of doubt in the back of my brain "Is my system really that good?  Could it be even better?"  Nowadays I know, in my gut, that there's nothing better for my to aspire to.  So I mostly just sit back and enjoy the tunes.  Which kills my desire to post, or even read about audio. 

I will say this about the S7's.  They are supremely transparent, so you have to feed them a good signal for them to sound their best.  But they are not unforgiving like some other speakers are with less than perfect electronics.  You can have a good-but-not-great system in front of them and they don't scream at you.  In fact they still sound incredibly engaging and musical.  But as you put better stuff in the chain, they just get better and better. 

Amp 
I alternate amps.  Most of the time I use a Jeff Korneff Type 45 SET amp.  Other times I am using a custom built First Watt Burning Amp 3, which I built.  This is the best amp Nelson Pass has designed, IMO, and I've heard all of them at this point.  You can see the whole build process (and a lot more details on the BA3) here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/258301-ba-3-amplifier-illustrated-build-guide.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/258301-ba-3-amplifier-illustrated-build-guide.html) 

Of course, I also had to hot-rod it with super premium parts (not shown in the build guide).  Things like an ultra-low noise Plitron transformer, physically isolated from the chassis using Herbie's Audio Grunge Buster mat.  OCC ultra-pure copper wiring used throughout.  Input caps swapped out to the awesome Jupiter Copper/Paper/Wax capacitors, low mass Eichmann RCA & Binding posts, etc.... The BA3 is also very cool in that it has a pot on the input board that allows you to leave in or dial out the even order harmonics.  I've adjusted mine so that there's a maximum of 2nd order harmonics.  The whole thing sounds like the quietest, most dynamic, most beautiful and transparent amp I've heard. 

Preamp
My preamp is a custom built Mike Galusha special - we adapted a K&K Audio Mir Preamp customized for octal tubes (6SN7 & 6BL7) and an LDR volume control. 6SN7's and 6BL7's are the 2 best sounding line level tubes out there, again IMO.  We basically created it as a cost no object design.  I've only heard one preamp that's better, the First Sound preamp Emmanuel brought to RMAF 4 years ago.  Mine also doubles as a freaking amazing headphone amp for my Beyer T1's. 

DAC
My DAC is a the Auralic Vega.  The Vega is they best I've heard till you get to the MSB Analog DAC. 


Here are my S7's, which I listen to every single day:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122041)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122042)



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122043)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 13 Mar 2016, 09:11 pm
Nice.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 13 Mar 2016, 10:59 pm
I still have yet to hear the upper drivers, but this design at least is right up my alley. The OB Subs with planar mids and highs---can't beat it!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Mar 2016, 11:07 pm
I still have yet to hear the upper drivers, but this design at least is right up my alley. The OB Subs with planar mids and highs---can't beat it!

Yes, I had OB bass in some DIY speakers I built and while OB bass can be better than box bass, it's not until you add the servo function to the equation that things REALLY take off.  Danny's OB Servo bass is flat out the best in the business.  But it wasn't until the Super 7's that he came up with a top half that matched the quality of the bass.  That's what makes the S7's such a class leader - great sound from top to bottom with no weaknesses.  That's a VERY hard trick to pull off.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 13 Mar 2016, 11:17 pm
Danny was already a proponent of OB bass, but when he learned of Rythmik's Brian Ding's Servo-feedback design he realized how combining the two would make for a new State-Of-The-Art in bass reproduction!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 14 Mar 2016, 07:28 am
Another Super 7 owner checking in here.  Guess we are up to 5 now  :thumb:
...

Welcome and TY for joining us.  I think I love the sounds of my system about as much as you love yours, but I'm still improving crossover parts and wiring. 

I thought not so long ago (a week?) that I was finished playing with amps since the 200WPC-too-much c-j ET250s hybrid stereo amp sounded SO good and as good as my mildly improved First watt J2s, but I'm now fantasizing about a local pair of early-version Antique Sound Lab AQ1006 SET monoamps (845-based, with 6SL7 and 6SN7 frontend tubes and rated at 22 Watts) that are HIGHLY affordable.  We'll see about those.  I'm also thinking about the current-version Atma-Sphere M-60 monoamps, but those are about $6.5K more expensive than the ASLs. 

I hope you continue to enjoy your system; I sure love mine.   :)
Speaking of improving crossover parts, I asked my favorite Mundorf dealer to price a pair of Silver/gold* 1mH/14g. inductors.  I did NOT buy them since I do not have $5300 lying about!   :roll:

FWIW, I'll be using all-copper-foil inductors--Alpha-Core 1mH/14g. for the MR series filter and Goertz/Bridgeport 16g. for the treble shunt and MR comp. network.

* an alloy of 99% ultra-high-purity silver and 1% ultra-high-purity gold
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: zybar on 14 Mar 2016, 11:56 am
How much do the Super 7's cost and are they available?

George
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: kingdeezie on 14 Mar 2016, 01:32 pm
How much do the Super 7's cost and are they available?

George

20K, I believe.

I think Danny might have a pair for sale, but other than that, they are not available.  The drivers are discontinued.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Mar 2016, 02:29 pm
I kept a personal pair of these because they were one of the best sounding speakers that I have ever heard. But I'm moving to a new location and I have speakers running out my ears. So I really need to thin the herd down a bit. So I'd let them go for the right price.

My biggest problem is that I can't leave a favorite pair in the system for very long because I am always working on new designs. So I have something new in there all the time.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 15 Mar 2016, 05:42 am
How much do the Super-7s cost and are they available?
George

Well, George, looks as if Danny's pair is available; go get 'em!

King...'s comment is correct--the original recommended retail was $20K.  The one pair I saw for sale last year was purchased for $8K by someone on our thread, and there's only one other pair ever built.  (That is, there were only 6 pairs made according to Danny, and we've found 5.)

Additional advantages not frequently mentioned are their high sensitivity at 97dB and their lowish impedance (4 Ohms) and quite benign phase behavior.  I drove mine quite successfully with 8-Watt SETs last year.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: zybar on 15 Mar 2016, 11:20 am
Well, George, looks as if Danny's pair is available; go get 'em!

King...'s comment is correct--the original recommended retail was $20K.  The one pair I saw for sale last year was purchased for $8K by someone on our thread, and there's only one other pair ever built.  (That is, there were only 6 pairs made according to Danny, and we've found 5.)

Additional advantages not frequently mentioned are their high sensitivity at 97dB and their lowish impedance (4 Ohms) and quite benign phase behavior.  I drove mine quite successfully with 8-Watt SETs last year.

I did contact Danny yesterday.

As usual, he was super responsive and great to "chat" with.

We were a good deal apart on price, so it will need to be somebody else who gets his speakers.

George

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 25 Mar 2016, 03:57 am
I decided a couple weeks ago that as good as I think the c-j ET250S poweramp sounds with the S7s, I want an all-triode tubed amp.  Triodephilia indeed!  Since I want some 25 - 50 Watts, don't want traditional push-pull operation, and can't tolerate, in my home theater, visually bright vacuumtubes such as the 845 and 805, I looked again at Atma-Sphere's Output-TransformerLess amps.  I  rejected the stereo S30 with 30WPC into 8 since 4-Ohm speakers were not recommended and landed on the 60-Watts-per-chassis-into-8* M-60s.  The A-S amps are now in '3.3' versions which have their binding posts and RCA and XLR connectors on the rears and not fronts.  I had purchased a used pair (in 3.1 version upgraded from Mk. IIs) maybe six years ago...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Atma-Sphere/Amppad%20with%20amp_1280w_zpskiy5odz3.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Atma-Sphere/Amppad%20with%20amp_1280w_zpskiy5odz3.jpg.html)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Atma-Sphere/06Jun2011_glowing_1280w_zpsh1ioxmmp.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Atma-Sphere/06Jun2011_glowing_1280w_zpsh1ioxmmp.jpg.html)
...hoping they'd drive the upper eight octaves of my Vandersteen 5As, but they didn't sound very good (but I don't remember exactly how), so out they went.  (I'd hate to think  :oops:  how many amp combinations I tried with the 5As until I bought a pair of McCormack DNA-750s.)

The Phoenix-metro area actually has a dealer, USA Tube Audio, that sells quite a bit of tubed equipment, and the owner made me a good deal on a new pair.  So A-S is building them and I ought to see them in a couple weeks.  Wish me luck.  In anticipation of having these amps, I bought thru eBay a carton of 25** of the Russian Winged-C 6H13C (the US number is 6AS7G) output tubes for less than $8 each (!), and I retested my 15 Tung-Sol round plate 6SN7s.  The M-60 uses four 'N7s (including one cathode follower) in the frontend.  Because my system is set up for high gain in the preamp and low gain in the poweramps, I'll likely be using A-S's gain-reduction plugs in the V2 position, so that leaves a total of four TSRPs in the two amps.  Hmm...maybe I can use two of the more-microfonic TSRPs in the CF positions...

Meanwhile, the c-j '250 still sounds excellent, so on with the music.

And I'm certainly not admitting to being too obsessive about this kind of stuff, but I'm already investigating stainless-steel and brass blocks (with Herbies' energy-absorbing dots) to damp the middle of the chassis, as I was trying to do with the steel block between the tubes in the upper pic.


* and 45 into 4 and 80 into 16.
** My truly wonderful wife has called me Mr. Excess for good reason.    :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 25 Mar 2016, 04:38 am
Jeffrey---The M60 is a real nice amp, very transparent. I've had two pairs of them myself, the original Mk.1's in the old style chassis (with a faceplate). OTL amps like a high-impedance load, which was one reason I chose the M60 for my own 16 ohm Quad ESL's (original, not the "57" reissue). You can remove two of the four output tubes per channel and still have enough power for the 57's. A classic combination! Add a pair of Danny's OB/Dipole subs and be happy forever!!   
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: zybar on 25 Mar 2016, 11:02 am
Jeff,

The Atma-Sphere amps worked best with the 5A's when coupled with the Speltz Autoformer.  I used that combination very successfully.

You definitely need quiet tubes for the 6SN7's to maximize the magic that the amps can produce.

If you do some research on the Audiogon forums, you can see various combinations that people like.

When I had a pair of MA-1 amps, I combined different NOS 6SN7 tubes to get the sound I liked best - I didn't use all TSRP's.

As always, your mileage will vary.

George
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 25 Mar 2016, 01:28 pm
Not exactly on topic, but not far off either. I am running LS-9s, including triple 12" servo subs per side, with Atma-Sphere MA-1 Silver Edition mono amps (brought up to latest specs). When I first hooked them up, the system experienced a noticeable droop in the highest frequencies. To cure the problem I (aided and abetted by a knowledgeable audio pal) had to make two easy changes. The series/parallel hookup had to be modified to a straight series arrangement to increase the overall impedance into a more OTL-friendly range (I can draw a diagram if necessary). This (plus one capacitor value change) cures the droop and reduces the strain on the amps.

The result: I'm like Tyson, satisfied with my system to the point of not messing with my system much anymore. Now I just listen. Darn you, Danny Ritchie.

P.S. Tyson, I live in Colorado Springs.  I have enjoyed your RMAF write-ups and I believe we have similar notions about what constitutes good sound. I think it would be fun to get together sometime. Maybe we already have, since I'm a member of the CAS and perhaps you are as well. Could you send me a PM?



Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 17 Apr 2016, 10:44 pm
Received this week the NEW Atma-Sphere M-60 Mk.3.3 monoamps.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2016Apr12_LCh%20cooking_1800w_zpsos0o4yji.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2016Apr12_LCh%20cooking_1800w_zpsos0o4yji.jpg.html)
(I later moved that L-channel amp several inches to the right.)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2016Apr17_room%20w%20M60s_1800w_zpsvksl29bn.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2016Apr17_room%20w%20M60s_1800w_zpsvksl29bn.jpg.html)

Got them thru the tube-conditioning process* and then a friend and I installed new coupling caps and load resistors**.  Friday I finally (in between way-too-late tax-returns work) got them running.  Already, with maybe 25 hours on them and with too-long, low-quality speaker and IC cable in the left channel, they sound almost excellent--detailed and spacious but tonally not yet rich. 

I have lots of super-high-quality BlackGate and SoniCap Platinum caps to install in them, but I think I'll work on the Super-7s next--new caps, chokes, and mounting plates in the x-overs and all-new wire.  I was going to use only Neotec UPOCC-in-Teflon copper and silver conductors, but after placing the monoamps, I realized that I could avoid all 'speakercable' if only the MR wire were a foot longer.  That is, I could run the wires attached to the initial x-over parts, unbroken, all the way to the amps' binding posts.  So I'll soon be ordering a couple-dozen feet of Mundorf 'MConnect SilverGold'***...
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-sgw110wh-p-4895
...Teflon-insulated 18g. wire to run to the first inductor and from the last cap of the MR filters.  After that arrives, I'll start that probably-time-consuming project while the amps break-in.

* A-S recommends that new amps with new tubes be conditioned by operating them with 'filaments-only' (actually, the LH switch turns on all filaments and the frontend tubes' high-Voltage) for at least 24 hours; I got about 30 hours on mine.
** SoniCap 0.01uF Platinums and 390KOhm PRP resistors, to create a high-pass filter of 42Hz for the otherwise-filterless MR drivers.
*** Ninety-nine-percent four-nines-pure silver and one-percent four-nines-pure gold
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Apr 2016, 12:49 am
I actually have a question on the Super 7's with low power amps.  I'm running a First Watt Burning Amp 3, which is 25 watts on tap.  Do I even need to put a  cap on the input of my amp to high pass at 100hz?  With only 25 watts, shouldn't the 4 panels be able to run wide open without that cap in the way?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 01:36 am
I actually have a question on the Super 7's with low power amps.  I'm running a First Watt Burning Amp 3, which is 25 watts on tap.  Do I even need to put a  cap on the input of my amp to high pass at 100hz?  With only 25 watts, shouldn't the 4 panels be able to run wide open without that cap in the way?

I'd still run it with the cap. It should be a little cleaner that way and allow the amp to have a little more headroom and better dynamics.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Apr 2016, 02:52 am
Does putting the cap there mess with the phase at all? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 01:10 pm
Does putting the cap there mess with the phase at all?

No.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 20 Apr 2016, 05:15 pm
All parts add a sound (some kind of distortion....however, some distortions are NICE).   I personally would try it both ways if I were listening real loud in a large room.  If you do not listen real loud or have a small room I would not use it.  I use one Neo 10 (four can handle way more power) with no cap and I listen to 100db peaks in a small room.  No distortion, no problem......for 2 years now.  Of course, the cap will help with a big DC surge or whatever.  Everyone is different.  I am not conservative.  I want the best sound possible.  You must listen to find that out.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 05:31 pm
The cap will limit how far the diaphragm will be pushed too. Those drivers won't play much below 100Hz but they are still effected by them and the lower ranges will really push them harder.

A good quality cap like the Sonic Platinum isn't going to take too much away from them.

And in my case, my pre-amp has coupling caps in it anyway. So I either use one output with a 3.3uF Jupiter cap (full range) or another output with a .047uF Platinum (restricted low end).

But hey, try them both ways. Tyson, you are not putting enough power on them to hurt them at all.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Apr 2016, 06:30 pm
Danny what is the cut off with the .o47uF cap?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 06:43 pm
Danny what is the cut off with the .o47uF cap?

It depends on the input impedance of the amplifier.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Apr 2016, 06:54 pm
DM impedance is 104 k , CM impedance is 1.5 M What ever that means  :scratch: :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 20 Apr 2016, 06:55 pm
To calculate the f-3dB point for the single pole high pass filter, the equation is:

f-3dB  = 1/(2*Pi*R*C) where,

R = input resistance of the preamp,
C = series capacitor value.

As an example, a power amp with a 10000 ohm input resistance and the 0.047uf cap will be 3db down at 339Hz.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 20 Apr 2016, 07:10 pm
To calculate the f-3dB point for the single pole high pass filter, the equation is:

f-3dB  = 1/(2*Pi*R*C) where,

R = input resistance of the preamp,
C = series capacitor value.

As an example, a preamp with a 10000 ohm input resistance and the 0.047uf cap will be 3db down at 339Hz.

Do you mean power amp?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 20 Apr 2016, 07:12 pm
Yes.  Fixed it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 07:26 pm
Hey guys, drop in your values and get a quick answer: http://www.pronine.ca/capimp.htm
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Apr 2016, 08:00 pm
The calculator gave me 32 hz with the .047uF, would it be better to use say a .01uF which would give about 150 hz with my amp?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Apr 2016, 08:07 pm
Danny, thanks for the info!

The calculator gave me 32 hz with the .047uF, would it be better to use say a .01uF which would give about 150 hz with my amp?


That's what I do.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 Apr 2016, 08:32 pm
Hey guys, drop in your values and get a quick answer: http://www.pronine.ca/capimp.htm

I must be doing something way wrong here. When I input my power amp's 100 kOhm input impedance and say I want an F3 of 80Hz the calculator tells me i need a 5000000002uF cap.

Granted, physics is not my strong suit but that doesn't make any sense  :scratch:

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Apr 2016, 08:38 pm
I had same problem till I figure out that after you click on calculate you have to click on page and it will change to the correct value.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Apr 2016, 08:43 pm
The calculator gave me 32 hz with the .047uF, would it be better to use say a .01uF which would give about 150 hz with my amp?

Yes.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 20 Apr 2016, 08:49 pm
I must be doing something way wrong here. When I input my power amp's 100 kOhm input impedance and say I want an F3 of 80Hz the calculator tells me i need a 5000000002uF cap.

Granted, physics is not my strong suit but that doesn't make any sense  :scratch:

Mike
Mike,
You need a 0.02uf cap for 80Hz with a 100K ohm input.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 Apr 2016, 08:57 pm
Mike,
You need a 0.02uf cap for 80Hz with a 100K ohm input.

Rich,

Thanks. I still wonder why I'm not getting that answer though.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 20 Apr 2016, 09:01 pm
This time the calculator worked. It gave me the .02uF answer.

Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Apr 2016, 09:08 pm
Thanks Danny and Tyson
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 20 Apr 2016, 11:09 pm
Here is another chart easy to use.  Use it for higher order xovers too. 

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp#ccc
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Apr 2016, 02:17 am
I've been running my Super 7's without the line level cap for the past couple of days, and I have to say I like it.  Clearer and more transparent.  I guess no cap is better than a good cap....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Apr 2016, 02:29 am
I've been running my Super 7's without the line level cap for the past couple of days, and I have to say I like it.  Clearer and more transparent.  I guess no cap is better than a good cap....

I get that a little as well. Unless you start playing them pretty hard or putting a lot of power on them and then they tend not to like it too much. It depends on the music input too. All vocals or instrumental and and less is always more. Music with a lot of hard hitting lows might not be as clean without the cap. It is always best to let your ears be the guide.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Apr 2016, 03:40 am
I'm mainly listening to classical music, so not a lot of thumping bass there :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Apr 2016, 04:20 pm
Question on the 56uF Erse in the crossover - can I replace that with Sonicap Gen 1's?  I have a 2 pairs of 10uF and a pair of 15uF of the Sonicap Gen 1's that iI could use.  That gives me 35uF per side.  Could I need to order another 20uF cap to get to 55uF?  Or how close to the original 56uF value do you have to get?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Apr 2016, 05:31 pm
Question on the 56uF Erse in the crossover - can I replace that with Sonicap Gen 1's?  I have a 2 pairs of 10uF and a pair of 15uF of the Sonicap Gen 1's that iI could use.  That gives me 35uF per side.  Could I need to order another 20uF cap to get to 55uF?  Or how close to the original 56uF value do you have to get?

I'm not a big fan of using dissimilar values to make a larger one. The dissipation rates vary with cap size and it can and will cause some phase shift because of it. I can even measure that with my Clio.

And since that cap value is in a notch filter that is all pass to ground, then the quality of the cap is much less of an issue.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Apr 2016, 05:45 pm
OK, I'll leave it alone... Thanks Danny.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2016, 05:06 am
OK, I figured an update is in order.  I've recently swapped out 2 things in my speakers, the Sonicaps to ClarityCap MR's and the 1Mh Erse coil to a Jantzen 1mH wax foil coil. 

Results?  The caps are still burning in, but so far it's been a step sideways as far as I can tell at this point.  Disappointing (so far). 

The Jantzens, on the other hand, are the real deal.  An immediate (and big) improvement over the Erse perfect lay coils I had in there before.  Specifically with high frequency clarity, imaging, clarity between an initial note strike and it's reverb (this was muddier before, particularly with things like pianos, cymbals, triangles, etc).  Overall it just allows the creation of a more realistic space, and the instruments sound more realistic within that better defined space. 

I'm shocked.  Honestly this is the reverse of what I expected.  I expected the caps to have a big impact and the coils to have a small change.  But it's the opposite. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 5 May 2016, 04:33 pm
I assume you mean Clarity cap MR and not Multicap MR.  Did you do all the caps or just one?  And if one, which one and what value?  How long did you burn in the caps?  Did you use a bypass on the MR cap. 

What gauge of coil did you use?  Was it on the tweet or midrange?  Did you go into the inside of the coil and out the outside?

Please see my post on page 2 of this thread for my coil gauge recommendations.

Sonicaps bypassed by Platinums are pretty good.  The caps are the last thing I would change.  There are better caps but there are way better coils and way better wire.  This is what I would change first.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2016, 04:59 pm
Yes, ClarityCap, not Multicap.  Thanks for pointing that out, fixed it.

I used a 16ga 1.0mH on the midrange only.  I wanted to try it out and see if it made any difference while keeping as many other things the same as possible.  After this successful result I've also ordered all 14ga Jantzen Wax/Foils to replace all 3 inductors.  Those are still on the way to me, I can't wait to get them all in.  I went with 14ga because they were the closest match to the DCR of the current coils.  I attach the inner coil lead to the amp side, and the outer foil to the driver side. 

For caps, I replaced the 10uF tweeter cap and the 15uF midrange cap with the ClarityCap MR.  No bypasses on these caps.  I have about 40 hours on them so far.  So still a long way to go on those. 

I also (yesterday) replaced the Erse shunt cap with Clarity Cap ESA's (half step below the MR Series).  This is bypassed with a ClarityCap MR.  My thinking and focus is that vibration is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and these caps and the Jantzen coils both go to extreme lengths to deal with that very issue.  I suspect its this lack of vibration that allows so much more sound staging and room/ambience information through.  PRaT also increases significantly - these things boogie!

I ran the speakers with pink noise all night for the past 2 nights and things have changed a bit more.  When I said the caps were a step sideways, I meant this - the ClarityCaps had more ambient information, attack, clarity, and transparency.  But the Sonicaps had better tone even though they were a bit more occluded.  That's what I meant by trade off.  But I've noticed today (after the pink noise burn in) that the ClarityCap MR's have relaxed quite a bit and are no longer edgy.  They are still not warm and laid back, but they are much more relaxed from a tonal standpoint.  And the ambient information and sound staging have actually gotten better. 

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 5 May 2016, 05:19 pm
On my single Neo 10 the 14 gauge Jantzen Wax coil was much better than the 16 gauge......but the real treat was going to 12 gauge....much more clarity, space, dynamics, tone, everything (yes, boogie factor...through the roof!).  You should order the 12 gauge and try them...even if the DCR is less, it is not much less and in my system the difference is dramatic (I went from 16 gauge Erse to 16 gauge Jantzen (slightly higher DCR than Erse) then to 14 gauge Jantzen and then to 12 gauge Jantzen).  For some reason I liked the 16 gauge on the tweets instead of 14 gauge (cannot remember what I heard now).

I like to place my crossover parts on cardboard which is on a platform isolated from the speaker with more cardboard.  Cardboard sounded better than various other damping materials.

One way to juice up a cap is to add a flavorful cap like a copper foil Jupiter as a bypass.....this is what I do on my Rike cap on my midrange and also across my Sonicap on my tweeter (I also use WA Quantum chips on the caps and also bypass the Sonicap with my modified Wima cap for more speed).  Pic of my xover on second page.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 5 May 2016, 05:40 pm
Audiophile cardboard.  :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 5 May 2016, 05:49 pm
Another pleasant one liner from our resident curmudgeon.  What he does not like (most of my ideas especially) he has to make a snide remark to. 

What makes you happy?  Laughing at others?  I feel sorry for you.  Love is all there is!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 May 2016, 06:01 pm
I need to compare the Jantzen wax foil inductors with a standard foil inductor to hear if there is any difference there. If you guys also make that comparison I will be interested in your observations.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2016, 06:35 pm
I have an Alpha Core foil inductor I tried previously in the midrange spot that I didn't like as much as the Erse.  So I stuck with the Erse.  Until I heard the Jantzen's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 May 2016, 06:52 pm
The thing that strikes me, as I listen to Analog Productions SACD - The Best of the Doors, is how heavily blues-influenced the Doors are.  We always hear about their mystical poetic side.  But on the S7's you get that driving propulsiveness that just gets lost on a lot of other speakers.  Bass guitar is much more clear and varied, the keyboards are distinctly on the right and don't smear the other instruments, drums are thumping along just left of center with a lot of drive and precision, electric guitar is over on the left and again just clear as a bell.  It's so nice to hear all the musicians clearly and be able to appreciate how each one contributes to the overall song.

Oh, I should note that sometimes the guitar and keyboards switch places, from song to song.  That's cool.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 5 May 2016, 11:35 pm
Yes indeed Tyson. Pianists and guitarists are often first and foremost Blues players, if not Jazz. Guitarist Robby Krieger came out of that generation of guitarists, both American and British, almost obsessed with Blues music. However, he had an unusual (for a Rock Band guitarist) amount of Jazz in his playing as well. Pianist Ray Manzarek not so much, being pretty much a Blues player. But live I thought they had a problem (I saw them twice, in '68): Manzarek was really limited because he had to play the bass parts on the album (by session great Jerry Scheff, Elvis Presley's 70's bassist) with his left hand; those bass parts were a big part of The Doors sound and style, and keyboard bass is no substitute for a real electric bass, especially when played by as great a bassist as Scheff! I've never read why they didn't just get a real bass player, like every other Rock band of the time. The odd thing to me is how dissimilar The Doors music basically was from Jim Morrison's lyrics. By the way, Jim was a very charismatic and engaging presence on stage. A lot of sex appeal!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Keithh on 6 May 2016, 12:36 am
Just put in Jantzen Wax foils in my Wedgies last Monday and the difference is quite dramatic. Totally agree with Tysons listening impressions. Don't know if burn-in applies to coils but it
is hard to believe they could much get better. Funny, didn't think the Wedgies could get much better with the stock Erse coils.
 I used 14 gauge for the LGK's and 16 gauge on the tweeter with inputs connected to the inner foil.
Might just have to see what the LGK 1.0 sounds like with a wax foil.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 6 May 2016, 12:48 am
Just put in Jantzen Wax foils in my Wedgies last Monday and the difference is quite dramatic. Totally agree with Tysons listening impressions. Don't know if burn-in applies to coils but it
is hard to believe they could much get better. Funny, didn't think the Wedgies could get much better with the stock Erse coils.
 I used 14 gauge for the LGK's and 16 gauge on the tweeter with inputs connected to the inner foil.
Might just have to see what the LGK 1.0 sounds like with a wax foil.
Thanks for the report Keith, Tyson, Rick.  I will be giving this a try.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 28 May 2016, 11:06 pm
Just up graded the rest of my x-over, Alpha Core coils and replaced the caps in the notch filter with Sonicaps. I'll let them burn in and report back.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=143813)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jun 2016, 02:41 am
Mike, that looks NIIICCCEEEEE!!!  I go back and forth on whether to get the Jupiters or stick with my Clarity Cap MRs.  Right now I have my preamp set up to sound pretty warm, so I think the ultra clear MRs are a really good match for my system at the moment.

OK, time for an UPDATE on the Jantzen Wax/Copper/Foil inductors.  I had to special order the sizes I needed from Jantzen.  I got 14ga all around and replaced all 3 inductors for each speaker.

HOLY SHIT!!!!!  I had no idea that stupid freaking inductors could make such a difference.  Wow, I am hearing details and musical flow and just a deep musical clarity I've never heard in my system.  These things are for real.  Seriously glad I swapped them in. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 2 Jun 2016, 03:34 am
You HAVE to use 12 gauge on the midrange....way, way, way better than 14 gauge.  I thought it would just give me a little more warmth and dynamics....no, everything, I mean everything was way better.  I know they are custom order, and not cheap (but not expensive) but your ears will be very happy.

Did you custom order the 14 gauge Jantzens through Parts Express?  How long did it take to get them?  How much did each value cost?  Total cost? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jun 2016, 06:32 pm
I ordered from http://www.hificollective.co.uk but only because they were faster and more responsive than Parts Express.  No one has these sized coils so they are all special orders.  Took about a month to get them once the order was placed. 

You mention 12 gauge, but why stop there?  Why not go for 8 gauge?  Any reason you settled on 12?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 2 Jun 2016, 06:47 pm
You might ask the mfg to give you a Q factor for each coil.  It is the way to tell how the parasitic resistance and capacitance of the coil affects it's operation in a circuit.  Usually the higher Q units are preferred for high frequency operation, depending on where it is in the circuit.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jun 2016, 06:53 pm
HAL, yes - the reason I settled for 14ga was the DCR was the closest to the DCR of the 16ga Erse coils they were replacing.  So what happens if you go with something like the 8ga, which doesn't match up as well with the original coils?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 2 Jun 2016, 06:57 pm
It is a trade-off between lowering the DCR of the coil and increasing the inter-winding capacitance C.

The Q factor usually is high for low C and low DCR in the inductor.  It is something RF engineers use to chose coils for circuits.  Equally applicable in this case.

High Q generally means a better inductor.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jun 2016, 08:50 pm
I can't find Q or capacitance values for these coils anywhere.  Maybe someone on this thread knows what they are? 

My bigger concern would be getting too far away from the original coils DCR.  Doesn't that affect attenuation levels of the signal passing through it?  So if you make the midrange choke an 8ga, should you also make the tweeter choke an 8ga to ensure DCR goes up or down by the same amount?  Seems like it would just be easier to do what I did - choose all the chokes to be similar DCR to the original circuit so there's no issues.  But maybe DCR at these levels of difference only affect things minutely?  That's the real question - how much does a change to a lower gauge coil (and resultant lower DCR) actually affect things in the real world? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 2 Jun 2016, 09:08 pm
My experience with crossover is that you are best off by simply matching the DCR of the original inductor.  Going to a larger gauge inductor is like dropping ohms on an in line resistor.  I've seen Danny tweek circuits by as little as .5 ohms to voice speakers.  Since no one knows his crossover as well as he does, I'd wait for his response or send him a PM.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Jun 2016, 09:39 pm
Let me clarify a couple of things.

First of all the inductor you guys are using on the Super 7 has a DCR of around .295 ohms in 16 gauge. A 14 gauge would be .188 ohms and a 12 gauge would be .12 ohms. This is going off of a Alpha Core inductance sheet. Brand to brand will differ a little but is pretty close.

My experience with slightly larger inductors on woofer circuits is that for each time you go up one gauge you pick up about 1/10th of a db in the ranges below 200Hz with a first order style curve to it. So not much difference at 200Hz but a slight lift as you move down in range. The total peak difference being about 1/10th of a db.

So moving up two gauges would lift you about 1/20th of a db.

But with the Neo 10's rolling off pretty heavy below that range you would not likely see any difference in frequency response.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 3 Jun 2016, 03:06 am
I just ordered a set of 12ga Alpha Cores for the midrange and 16ga Jantzens on the tweeters to try. I did it this way to eliminate the need for a custom order. Parts were purchased here in the USA.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 3 Jun 2016, 11:47 pm
Parts Express has 14 gauge 1.2 mh Jantzen wax coils in stock.  You can unwind them for smaller values.  Inductance meters are <$40 if you don't have one.

http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-12mh-14-awg-copper-foil-wax-coil-crossover-coil--255-565
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Jun 2016, 11:56 pm
Parts Express has 14 gauge 1.2 mh Jantzen wax coils in stock.  You can unwind them for smaller values.  Inductance meters are <$40 if you don't have one.

http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-12mh-14-awg-copper-foil-wax-coil-crossover-coil--255-565

Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Jun 2016, 12:18 am
"The 99.9998% pure copper foil used in Jantzen Audio's Cross Coil Series inductors is the basis for the Wax Coil. Insulated with 60 micron special-quality paper, the foil is precision-wound tightly and then impregnated with Jantzen Audio's proprietary polymolecular paraffin wax"

Above is the ad copy for the Jantzen wax coil.  So, you are getting the exact same paper dielectric and the exact wax and exactly making them the same and they will sound as good or better?  Jantzen claim 4 9s on the regular coils but 5 9s on these wax ones.  You have scientific proof otherwise?

The Jantzen's sound fantastic and are available now.  How will your "new custom Erse" ones sound?  You won't know till you A/B with Jantzen.  Please buy some Jantzens to have as reference so when you make your custom ones you will really know something.  I want the best sound....not just something "made in America".  I personally hope your new fangled custom "super copper" ones will sound better than Jantzen.....hey, I always want something better.  Go Man Go.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jun 2016, 01:45 am
"The 99.9998% pure copper foil used in Jantzen Audio's Cross Coil Series inductors is the basis for the Wax Coil. Insulated with 60 micron special-quality paper, the foil is precision-wound tightly and then impregnated with Jantzen Audio's proprietary polymolecular paraffin wax"

Above is the ad copy for the Jantzen wax coil.  So, you are getting the exact same paper dielectric and the exact wax and exactly making them the same and they will sound as good or better?  Jantzen claim 4 9s on the regular coils but 5 9s on these wax ones.  You have scientific proof otherwise?

The Jantzen's sound fantastic and are available now.  How will your "new custom Erse" ones sound?  You won't know till you A/B with Jantzen.  Please buy some Jantzens to have as reference so when you make your custom ones you will really know something.  I want the best sound....not just something "made in America".  I personally hope your new fangled custom "super copper" ones will sound better than Jantzen.....hey, I always want something better.  Go Man Go.

I have a copy of an e-mail exchange involving a man that bares the last name of the company. He says they have never tested the quality of the Copper and have never had it tested. They just have to trust in their suppliers. He doesn't feel like the difference can really be detected by the human ear. And he basically said if his customers are happy then they really don't care what the purity really is of the Copper.

Independent tests showed that at least one particular run tested was no where near advertised levels. 

Yes, Erse did have test run on everyone else's coils.

I have listened to their wire wound coils and compared them to the Erse coils that were advertised as being the same. Clearly they did not sound the same. So they did not instill a lot of confidence in their product to me.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Jun 2016, 03:41 am
Nothing you just quoted or said has anything to do with how the Jantzen wax coils sound.  We are now 4 for 4 people testing and finding the Jantzen's to sound way, way, way better than the Erse's.  I trust my ears, I trust the ears of others.  I do not trust Erse's tests or comments (they want to sell their products....are they objective?....do they listen?.....hardly).  When will you listen to the Jantzen wax coils so you can see/hear what they really do?  Never?  You just keep going on and on about copper purity.  Open minds explore and experiment and are willing to be wrong.  Closed minds defend.  I want even better coils.  I hope you can bring us some....meanwhile my Jantzen wax coils bring me lots of enjoyment.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jun 2016, 04:16 am
Nothing you just quoted or said has anything to do with how the Jantzen wax coils sound.  We are now 4 for 4 people testing and finding the Jantzen's to sound way, way, way better than the Erse's.  I trust my ears, I trust the ears of others.  I do not trust Erse's tests or comments (they want to sell their products....are they objective?....do they listen?.....hardly).  When will you listen to the Jantzen wax coils so you can see/hear what they really do?  Never?  You just keep going on and on about copper purity.  Open minds explore and experiment and are willing to be wrong.  Closed minds defend.  I want even better coils.  I hope you can bring us some....meanwhile my Jantzen wax coils bring me lots of enjoyment.

I didn't say anything about how they sound. They may sound great.

I didn't care for the owners response.

Regardless of how good the wax dielectric is, and I am sure it is great, comparing like made coils confirmed the testing made by Erse. And that comparison, plus the owners response tends to make me believe that the only thing going for the wax film coils is the wax film. And anyone open minded enough to have a look at what they really are should realize that.

Enjoy what you have. I see room for possible improvement. But that's just me. I always shoot for making things better. It's what I do.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Jun 2016, 07:08 am
Actually, if you are open minded, you will realize that making anything is way more complex and subtle than you may realize.  Everything you do to something changes the sound.  The foil purity, the foil direction, the foil thickness, the wax, the paper, the heat applied, the tension of the winding machine, the curing, the bobbin in the center, the direction of winding, etc. all contribute to the final sound.  I tried the 12 gauge wax paper Jensen coils and they suck big time.  I hope your custom Erse ones are better than the Jantzens.......but there is really absolutely no way to know what the final result will be till you listen.......and if it is not as good as the Jantzen, then what was the thing/things that did not allow the best sound?.....you might have to try many, many versions to arrive at something worthwhile.   

Jupiter copper foil development:  "Every aspect of the capacitor construction was evaluated during the 4 year development process. Even the smallest details were addressed which resulted in significant improvements in sonic performance. Wax with very special sonic characteristics, better damping and thermal characteristics was chosen as a perfect match. Further, new lead termination technique has allowed the music to flow more naturally. Without exception, every detail has been tailored to this specific copper capacitor design."

Years ago my friend Phil wanted to have some custom polystyrene 1uf 100V caps made (for use in modifying Acoustat electrostats).  He was working for Sumiko at the time and Sumiko had access to really good tin foil.  So, Phil sent this foil off to 4 different cap manufacturers along with some Mogami wire to use as leads and his own favorite solder.  So all the various capacitor winding companies had to do was add their own polystyrene (some say all came from one factory in Germany) and wind them and solder the leads on using the same solder and wires.....well, guess what?......they all sounded different.

One thing is for certain:  Your custom Erse wax coils will not sound like the Jantzen wax coils.  Which one wlll be more transparent?  No one has any idea....no one.

Meanwhile, we can all get a fantastic upgrade by getting Jantzen Wax foil coils.....they are simply amazing.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: cab on 4 Jun 2016, 01:27 pm
Just because "everything" affects the "sound" doesn't mean "everything" is audible. And let's also keep in mind that what one person prefers is not what the next person may prefer. There is no "best", only different.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jun 2016, 03:44 pm
Just because "everything" affects the "sound" doesn't mean "everything" is audible. And let's also keep in mind that what one person prefers is not what the next person may prefer. There is no "best", only different.


Have to disagree.  Most of the times different is just a sideways move.  But sometimes things are just better.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jun 2016, 04:34 pm
If I think I see a way to make something sound better then I'll give it a shot. I've made a career out of it. No sense in settling now.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Jun 2016, 04:21 pm
I'm with Danny on this one - if we can get a better sounding coil from Erse for whatever reason, then we all benefit.  In the meantime I'm glad I have the Jantzens in place.

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Jun 2016, 05:41 pm
I'm with Danny on this one - if we can get a better sounding coil from Erse for whatever reason, then we all benefit.  In the meantime I'm glad I have the Jantzens in place.

I agree too , but, it'd be  cool  for Danny to try the Jantzens  so he's got something  to compare the new ones to when they are  done. If  you guys all feel the  Jantzens are better than the  Erse Xo's, not much point comparing the new ones  to the  Xo's...

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Jun 2016, 06:20 pm
I agree too , but, it'd be  cool  for Danny to try the Jantzens  so he's got something  to compare the new ones to when they are  done. If  you guys all feel the  Jantzens are better than the  Erse Xo's, not much point comparing the new ones  to the  Xo's...

jay

As I read this thread, it appears the Jantzen wax foil inductors have only been compared to the Erse wire wound inductors. I would be interested in how the Jantzen's compare to other foil inductors.

When discussing inductors are wire wound and foil in two separate categories such that comparing them against each other is an apples and oranges comparison (i.e. all foil inductors sound better than any wire wound inductors)?  Or is there some crossover such that the best wire wound are better than the (worst/mid) foil?

Mike

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 6 Jun 2016, 10:39 pm
I just looked at the spec of the 8 gauge Jantzen wax coil and the thickness of the copper is much thicker....this is not good.  You want thin copper to get the best transparency and highs.  I would not bother with the 8 gauge whatsoever.....if you want lower gauge then stack two 12 gauge together that have twice the value on top of each other (two 2mh coils in parallel = 1 mh).  Two 12 gauges in parallel equal nine gauge. 

Just try the 12 gauge for your midranges and be amazed!  I am the only one on the Danny planet that has tried them.  14 gauge is so yesterday.....he he.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 21 Jun 2016, 05:20 pm
Dear All,

I just wanted if allowed to post a picture of the fantastic line arrays from GR Research with the servo drives

The combination of open baffle, line array, extreme short decay creates really an amazing combination it is really something...

I would like to thanks Danny and all the persons who are involved in this circle. With platforms such as Audiocircle it is possible to speed up the process of finding your way into audio (not only in the high end sector of it).

Thanks Miguel


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145329)

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 21 Jun 2016, 05:49 pm
Miquel,
Way to go!!!!  Man that has to sound good.  Congrats....I know it has been a long journey. 

Now, here are the critical remarks......please duck if you only want praising.  Thanks for taking my advise and having all three woofers face forward.....and also physically aligning the voice coils......however, because you have an H-frame right next to and in front of the main baffle and right next to the tweeters.....well, that is a big no no.  You have highs bouncing off the outside walls of the H-frame and messing up imaging and coherency.  If you used a U-frame then most of the problem would disappear and you could put matching colored felt on the rest of that side of the U-frame.  I know you want this to look good....and it does....but a simple partial solution would be to put a half inch thick piece of felt all the way along the outside of the tweeters up to the level of the top of the H-frame.  This felt would kill the response of the highs to the outside and therefore they would not hit the H-frame baffle as much.  But this is a bandaid that will just give you so much.  You could also try moving the woofers back and using the phase control on the servo amps. 

None the less.....I am sure it sounds amazing.  But you know me....always trying to make it better.  I hope you get the Jantzen wax foil coils (12 gauge is a must for the midranges) for it.....now that will blow your mind (no exaggeration here).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 21 Jun 2016, 06:07 pm
Thanks very much,

Will move the servo drives back (takes 10 seconds) I am still in the early testing... , not ready to rebuild the structure of the servo drives into a U form...

I have to move forward with the sound panels...for the acoustics of the room

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 21 Jun 2016, 06:32 pm
If those are the prototypes that I heard at Danny's last year, and they certainly look like it, you've never heard anything like them- and Mr. Gonzalez has an amazing set of speakers.  Not the Wilson's, not the TAD's, not the Magico's, -nothing that I've ever heard were that good. 
Could something make them better?  Yeah, sure.  But other than a few of the guys that had actually been in that living room, everyone else is just guessing. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Jun 2016, 07:28 pm
Miquel,
Way to go!!!!  Man that has to sound good.  Congrats....I know it has been a long journey. 

Now, here are the critical remarks......please duck if you only want praising.  Thanks for taking my advise and having all three woofers face forward.....and also physically aligning the voice coils......however, because you have an H-frame right next to and in front of the main baffle and right next to the tweeters.....well, that is a big no no.  You have highs bouncing off the outside walls of the H-frame and messing up imaging and coherency.  If you used a U-frame then most of the problem would disappear and you could put matching colored felt on the rest of that side of the U-frame.  I know you want this to look good....and it does....but a simple partial solution would be to put a half inch thick piece of felt all the way along the outside of the tweeters up to the level of the top of the H-frame.  This felt would kill the response of the highs to the outside and therefore they would not hit the H-frame baffle as much.  But this is a bandaid that will just give you so much.  You could also try moving the woofers back and using the phase control on the servo amps. 

None the less.....I am sure it sounds amazing.  But you know me....always trying to make it better.  I hope you get the Jantzen wax foil coils (12 gauge is a must for the midranges) for it.....now that will blow your mind (no exaggeration here).

Ric, I am not sure where you come up with some of the advice you throw out there.

If a U shaped cabinet were used for the woofers then the side panel would be just as long and create just as much reflective surface. Plus a U shaped baffle causes a lot of other issues that are large disadvantages verses the H frame. Resonance issue for one are a big one.

Secondly, no felt is need on the edges of the tweeter line. The upper ranges tend to beam and are not effected by the sides. The lower ranges cancel out at 90 degrees off axis. So his woofer tower is in a bit of an open window area where there is no reflection issue.

So you might want to take some off axis measurements of some of your open baffle speakers using the Neo 3 to learn a little more about what's going on there.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Jun 2016, 07:31 pm
Miguel,

Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 21 Jun 2016, 07:54 pm
Danny, a U shaped frame would have less sticking out the front.....that is obvious.   This is, of course, aligning the voice coils.  It's the reflective surface in the front of the main speakers that is the main problem...less so to the rear.  I personally would not even have a U-frame (the less stuff near the main speaker the better).....you get plenty of low bass with the three 12s on an open baffle.  Heck, I had plenty of bass with two on an open baffle.  Depends on the room and how loud you listen and to what kind of music you listen to as to how much woof you need.  I bet if Miguel put his three woofs on an open baffle it would sound way, way better......not in pure low bass range or power.....but he does not listen to 110 db power rock.

Here is a link to a review of a speaker that uses 2 12 inch servo woofs (maybe yours?...they look similar) on an open baffle and this guy thinks the bass is incredible and deep: http://www.dagogo.com/the-beatnik-bops-on-over-to-novato

Another link where you can see the pic of part of the woof at the bottom of the page:
http://www.spatialaudio.us/lumina

You really need to try felting....It makes more difference than you could ever imagine.  You only know something when you listen.  Measurements only take you so far.  I have felted every speaker that I have ever made (the whole baffle right up to the drivers) and it ALWAYS makes an improvement.....even without other things in the way.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Jun 2016, 08:14 pm
Danny, a U shaped frame would have less sticking out the front.....that is obvious.   This is, of course, aligning the voice coils.  It's the reflective surface in the front of the main speakers that is the main problem...less so to the rear.  I personally would not even have a U-frame (the less stuff near the main speaker the better).....you get plenty of low bass with the three 12s on an open baffle.  Heck, I had plenty of bass with two on an open baffle.  Depends on the room and how loud you listen and to what kind of music you listen to as to how much woof you need.  I bet if Miguel put his three woofs on an open baffle it would sound way, way better......not in pure low bass range or power.....but he does not listen to 110 db power rock.

You really need to try felting....It makes more difference than you could ever imagine.  You only know something when you listen.  Measurements only take you so far.  I have felted every speaker that I have ever made (the whole baffle right up to the drivers) and it ALWAYS makes an improvement.....even without other things in the way.

Ric, The woofers play up to a crossover point of only 160 to 180Hz. Those wavelengths are too long to have issues reflecting off of the edges of the H frame. Those are still in omni directional ranges. Even at its highest frequency range we are talking about wavelengths that are over six feet long.

And again, aligning the voice coils for wavelengths this long isn't going to give you anything plus or minus from one being inverted. I covered this more thoroughly in another thread a little while ago. Go back and re-read it.

I also sent Miguel many sheet of No Rez that I am sure will line these cabinets.

And please stop recommending for my customers to use a flat baffle verses an H frame. There is no advantage in doing so and it really limits the low frequency output and eats up amplifier head room.

And I have experimented with felting baffles and I try a variation of felt or foam on baffle areas with almost every speaker I work on to see and identify surface reflection issues. In this case there really is no baffle left for the customer to add felt to. It is nothing but a frame on the tweeter side. And if you read carefully my last response regarding this then you might understand why it would have no effect on this speaker.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 21 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm
Miguel,

Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks. 

Thanks this is good news for sure I am willing to post pictures of the line force array speakers... I am willing to do it with pleasure because your creation really deserve nice pictures (not like the one I have posted at 90 degrees angle by the way...).

I am traveling for a month, once I come back we can do it properly.

One of the unsuspected surprises for me about those speakers (among many other things...) is that they are non fatiguing. I do not know if it is because of the excitement or what.

My idea is when I am back is to install the insulation panels being built here in Panama with the audio system (and for sure any help is welcome)...

Once done I need to compare seriously the following

1) Line Force Array with Servo drives with LIO from Vinnie Rossi

with

2) Line Force Array with Servo drives with the following preamp Aum Acoustics LDR Based
Passive Preamplifier with the following amplifier KR Kronzilla VA 680.

I have started the test but I am not able to come to a conclusion as of now (the LIO from Vinnie Rossi has really been also a serious surprise).

Once again thanks for pushing the envelope of what is possible in the field of reproduction of music (and also all the others participants in the forums)...I really hope you can develop in the near future a solution with line arrays, it is really something...

Thanks Miguel
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 21 Jun 2016, 11:38 pm
Speaking of felt......look on page 2 of this thread.  Mike Eastman.....with my coaxing added felt to his waveguided Neo three on his Serenity 7 speakers with good results.  The waveguide on the NX-Oticas has a hard edge as it meets the baffle.  This will lead to massive diffraction (exaggeration slightly).  If you put a very small ring of felt on the baffle right around the waveguide so the felt sticks very slightly over that edge then the sound will be GREATLY!!!! improved.  This I have found true over and over again.  Never fails.  Try it and know something.....or resist and know nothing.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: rajacat on 21 Jun 2016, 11:50 pm
Hmm.... maybe I'll try that with my speakers. :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jun 2016, 12:49 am
Speaking of felt......look on page 2 of this thread.  Mike Eastman.....with my coaxing added felt to his waveguided Neo three on his Serenity 7 speakers with good results.  The waveguide on the NX-Oticas has a hard edge as it meets the baffle.  This will lead to massive diffraction (exaggeration slightly).  If you put a very small ring of felt on the baffle right around the waveguide so the felt sticks very slightly over that edge then the sound will be GREATLY!!!! improved.  This I have found true over and over again.  Never fails.  Try it and know something.....or resist and know nothing.

You are not telling me something new here. I do this constantly. Felting the edges of my new waveguide was used extensively in the design and development.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/aftersanding.jpg)

You work with it until the felt has no effect. And in this case the finished product had a flat curve with no felt. On or off made no difference.

And in the NX-Otica there is little to no effect of felting around it. It's too big of a wave guide and the radius is too gradual and the transition to the baffle is real smooth.

You know, instead of speculating this stuff constantly, you can just ask me and I'll tell you what the result is.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jun 2016, 12:56 am
And another thing. The baffle is often part of the waveguide. And sometimes adding felt can cause a dipped area to occur. Just because it absorbs sound doesn't always mean that is a good thing.

Oh, and when a wave guide like the one on the NX-Otica is used it allows the tweeter to play MUCH lower. Those longer wavelengths don't react the same to edge or surface reflection. It plays low enough to get into an omni range, and there is a transition range there where the edge shape and or felt is very minimized just like the output of a woofer. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 22 Jun 2016, 01:13 am
Danny,
You say results.....I believe you are talking measurements.  I am talking listening.  Folks, believe your ears....not words from me or anyone.  Believe your ears......experiment and find out for yourself.  That is what Jay did when he turned around the woofer......he heard better sound.  Danny says it would not make a difference.  Jay believes his ears.  Do you believe your ears?  Do you want better sound?  If yes, then you need to experiment and find out for yourself.  There is no other way.  No one on this earth has all the answers.  Listen to everyone.....believe no one.  Believe your ears!  I have no doubt that felting around the waveguide on the NX-Oticas would improve the sound.  Try it and find out for yourself.....do not believe me.....do not believe anyone....trust your own ears!  In life, it is trust your heart.....in audio....it is trust your ears.

Unless someone asks me a direct question this is my last statement about felting, time aligning, running woofers in the same direction and open baffles.  You all know what I believe.  I have poured you a drink......some will scorn....some will fight....some will taste.....some will sip.....some will spit out.....some will devour....some will celebrate....some will praise.  Be that as it may.....blessings to all.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 22 Jun 2016, 01:34 am
Danny,
You say results.....I believe you are talking measurements.  I am talking listening.  Folks, believe your ears....not words from me or anyone.  Believe your ears......experiment and find out for yourself.  That is what Jay did when he turned around the woofer......he heard better sound.  Danny says it would not make a difference.  Jay believes his ears.  Do you believe your ears?  Do you want better sound?  If yes, then you need to experiment and find out for yourself.  There is no other way.  No one on this earth has all the answers.  Listen to everyone.....believe no one.  Believe your ears!  I have no doubt that felting around the waveguide on the NX-Oticas would improve the sound.  Try it and find out for yourself.....do not believe me.....do not believe anyone....trust your own ears!

Unless someone asks me a direct question this is my last statement about felting, time aligning, running woofers in the same direction and open baffles.  You all know what I believe.  I have poured you a drink......some will scorn....some will fight....some will taste.....some will sip.....some will spit out.....some will devour....some will celebrate....some will praise.  Be that as it may.....blessings to all.
[eating popcorn emoticon]

I trust Danny's ears more than almost anybody I know. Yes, he uses measurements, but his ears are the final say so.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 22 Jun 2016, 02:07 am
If those are the prototypes that I heard at Danny's last year, and they certainly look like it, you've never heard anything like them- and Mr. Gonzalez has an amazing set of speakers.  Not the Wilson's, not the TAD's, not the Magico's, -nothing that I've ever heard were that good. 
Could something make them better?  Yeah, sure.  But other than a few of the guys that had actually been in that living room, everyone else is just guessing.

Luckily I was there with Scott, Danny and Gary.  The only speakers I heard since 1979 that finally met all my wants in a speaker system.  When I heard them, I think they had the opposing H-Frame 3x12s.  Amazing to say the least.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jun 2016, 02:09 am
Danny,
You say results.....I believe you are talking measurements.  I am talking listening.  Folks, believe your ears....not words from me or anyone.  Believe your ears......experiment and find out for yourself.  That is what Jay did when he turned around the woofer......he heard better sound.  Danny says it would not make a difference.  Jay believes his ears.  Do you believe your ears?  Do you want better sound?  If yes, then you need to experiment and find out for yourself.  There is no other way.  No one on this earth has all the answers.  Listen to everyone.....believe no one.  Believe your ears!  I have no doubt that felting around the waveguide on the NX-Oticas would improve the sound.  Try it and find out for yourself.....do not believe me.....do not believe anyone....trust your own ears!  In life, it is trust your heart.....in audio....it is trust your ears.

Unless someone asks me a direct question this is my last statement about felting, time aligning, running woofers in the same direction and open baffles.  You all know what I believe.  I have poured you a drink......some will scorn....some will fight....some will taste.....some will sip.....some will spit out.....some will devour....some will celebrate....some will praise.  Be that as it may.....blessings to all.

I think the folks around here will trust the designer that not only measures but listens as well. You still offer only speculation. If you want to give it a shot I'll sell you a NX-Otica kit and you can see if your speculation holds true over what I have measured and heard. Then you  can try it for yourself.

And again there is a lot you are not taking into account. I covered most of it already and have tried to explain it to you but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: grimace on 22 Jun 2016, 02:47 am
Danny, nice example of showing patience and being humble.  You are a class act.  Also, nice to see people disagreeing about something and not demonizing the other person.  Kind of rare nowadays unfortunately...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 22 Jun 2016, 03:13 am
Dear All,

I just wanted if allowed to post a picture of the fantastic line arrays from GR Research with the servo drives

The combination of open baffle, line array, extreme short decay creates really an amazing combination it is really something...

I would like to thanks Danny and all the persons who are involved in this circle. With platforms such as Audiocircle it is possible to speed up the process of finding your way into audio (not only in the high end sector of it).

Thanks Miguel


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145329)

Miguel,

Welcome and you lucky dog  :green:. My grandson and I got to listen to those speakers at Danny's and I have to agree with Scott and Rich (HAL). Those are seriously the best I have ever heard. I would tell you to enjoy listening but with those it would be impossible not to.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 22 Jun 2016, 03:38 am
I think the folks around here will trust the designer that not only measures but listens as well. You still offer only speculation. If you want to give it a shot I'll sell you a NX-Otica kit and you can see if your speculation holds true over what I have measured and heard. Then you and try it for yourself.

And again there is a lot you are not taking into account. I covered most of it already and have tried to explain it to you but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

When Bill Johnson of Audio Research Corp. was still alive he would make appearances at ARC dealer's shops to talk about his products with those shop's clientele. At one such appearance I attended, Bill told a story I find appropriate to repeat here. In the late 70's Bill sent a new model pre-amp to Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound magazine for a review, and soon heard back from Harry, who told him the pre-amp was defective. Bill asked him to send the pre-amp back, he would take a look at it. Upon it's return he did just that, and found the pre-amp to be working fine. Bill called Harry to investigate the matter, and learned that Pearson had in preparation for evaluating the pre-amp utilized a new tweak spreading through the high end, the shorting plug. A shorting plug is a regular ol' RCA plug that has had it's hot and ground legs soldered together; when inserted into an unused input jack, it shorts that input to ground, thereby preventing any noise from entering the pre-amp through that unused input. A good idea, one I use to this day. But Harry, lacking even the most basic electronic knowledge, had inserted shorting plugs into the pre-amps unused OUTPUT jacks! Uh, yeah, that will make a pre-amp act "defective" alright!

The moral of this story obviously being, a little knowledge is, as the old expression goes, a dangerous thing. Professional audio designers have always used measurements to evaluate the basic correctness of a circuit, cross-over, driver's frequency response, whatever. That's not the end of the design process, but no professional designer does so without taking many, many measurements. The educated ear is the final arbitrator, but the notion of the irrelevance of technical measurements to the sound quality of an audio product is one created by subjective reviewers like Harry Pearson. The "real" audio critic J. Gordon Holt, founder/owner/reviewer of Stereophile Magazine, being a trained electronic engineer, used measurements regularly in his reviews. Stereophiles current editor, John Atkinson, continues to do so. Gordon, unlike all the other professional reviewers in the U.S. in the 1960's, also listened at length to the device under review, and described it's sound character and quality to his readers. He single-handedly created subjective reviewing, and Harry Pearson and his Absolute Sound Magazine single-handedly destroyed it's credibility. End of history lesson, and of story with a moral, one I believe not lost on y'all ;-).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 22 Jun 2016, 03:47 am
Thanks very much for the welcome and kind words...

I am glad that you share the view that the envelope has been pushed with those speakers...

I would say we should be glad that entrepreneurs at human scale can develop audio products that improve the audio field. In many industries, change only happens trough mega corporations. It is surprising when you think about it knowing that hearing or audition is a major sense for the human being.

Miguel
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 22 Jun 2016, 03:50 am
Miguel,

Welcome and you lucky dog  :green:. My grandson and I got to listen to those speakers at Danny's and I have to agree with Scott and Rich (HAL). Those are seriously the best I have ever heard. I would tell you to enjoy listening but with those it would be impossible not to.

Mike

Thanks very much for the welcome and kind words...

I am glad that you share the view that the envelope has been pushed with those speakers...

I would say we should be glad that entrepreneurs at human scale can develop audio products that improve the audio field. In many industries, change only happens trough mega corporations. It is surprising when you think about it knowing that hearing or audition is a major sense for the human being.

Miguel
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Jun 2016, 03:58 pm
Miguel,

Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks.

For sure  !
Don still talks about  hearing those speakers at Danny's place last fall, bet they are incrediable :ber:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jun 2016, 05:40 pm
Suddenly, I have panel envy :P  Congrats Miguel! 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 22 Jun 2016, 07:53 pm

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)
Suddenly, I have panel envy :P  Congrats Miguel!

The combination of open baffle + line array + extremely shorts decays can be very addictive...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 22 Jun 2016, 08:11 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)
The combination of open baffle + line array + extremely shorts decays can be very addictive...

Shhhh... Don't tell the DEA :lol:

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 22 Jun 2016, 10:57 pm
 :D. Sorry.  Late to the party,   Can you buy these speakers or kits only ?  I have a set of Super V's and the bass is the reason the neighbour knocks on my door  after a session.   Ha.   I don't answer.  :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Jun 2016, 11:23 pm
:D. Sorry.  Late to the party,   Can you buy these speakers or kits only ?  I have a set of Super V's and the bass is the reason the neighbour knocks on my door  after a session.   Ha.   I don't answer.  :D

If the drivers are made available again then I can build another pair. They use the Neo 10 and a custom Neo 3.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 23 Jun 2016, 02:59 am
 :D.  Why the shortage ?   :duh:   :D  is the world running out of stuff to make things ?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 23 Jun 2016, 04:24 am
I just ordered a set of 12ga Alpha Cores for the midrange and 16ga Jantzens on the tweeters to try. I did it this way to eliminate the need for a custom order. Parts were purchased here in the USA.

Just wanted to provide an update on the inductor upgrade:

The sound is much heavier, thicker, and visceral. Male voices, in particular, have much more weight to them. My speakers now explosive dynamics, the mid-bass is deeper, and the overall sound simply has more authority. That's not surprising given the massive 12 ga. Alpha Core inductor on the midrange. Oh yeah, and the sound stage increased. The detail is the same, but now some of the micro details have now become macro details. It's quite a different presentation, for sure, with greater tonal accuracy. Previously, my system would have been labeled as super clean and perhaps a tad clinical, but not anymore. My system sounds like a tootsie pop -- there's a chewy, delicious center inside.   

So far, I'm very pleased with the results.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jun 2016, 03:46 pm
You said it better than I did :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 23 Jun 2016, 04:04 pm
Suddenly, I have panel envy :P  Congrats Miguel!

Tyson,

I would say that is still better than having the other envy that starts with a "P" :lol:

I have the same feeling with YOUR speakers, I finally get my custom Super V's from Ruben which are beautiful and sound wonderful. Then I find out he is building you Super 7's.  and all I can think about is 'why didn't I think of that :duh:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jun 2016, 05:14 pm
I still have a pair of Super-7's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jun 2016, 05:15 pm
Tyson,

I would say that is still better than having the other envy that starts with a "P" :lol:

I have the same feeling with YOUR speakers, I finally get my custom Super V's from Ruben which are beautiful and sound wonderful. Then I find out he is building you Super 7's.  and all I can think about is 'why didn't I think of that :duh:

What other P word could you possibly mean?  Hahaha.  Yes it's true, I got the last pair of Super 7's ever built.  I was very lucky because they had been my holy grail speakers ever since hearing them at RMAF 3 years prior.  And I joke about panel envy with Miguel, but really I know there's no way I can fit speakers that size into my room.  The Super 7's are the very biggest I can use and I just got lucky that I could grab a pair before they went away entirely.  My advice to anyone with a moderately sized room is to make an offer to Danny for his pair post haste.  They are so amazing....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 24 Jun 2016, 12:34 am
 :D.  Danny ,, what's the no dicker sticker on those bad boys ?  :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jun 2016, 12:54 am
:D.  Danny ,, what's the no dicker sticker on those bad boys ?  :D

I'd take 12 grand for them.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 24 Jun 2016, 03:17 am
That's a crazy bargain considering that they kick the living shit out of every speaker I heard at RMAF for 10 years straight. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jun 2016, 01:41 pm
And retail on them is $20,000.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Jul 2016, 03:59 pm
Time for a quick update on my crossover upgrades.  For the record, I have changed out every part in the crossover.  What I have now are:

Clarity Cap MR's for the tweeter and midrange caps.
Clarity Cap ESA and MR for the other cap
Mundorf M-Resist bifilar resistor
Jantzen Copper/Foil/Wax 14ga Inductors in all positions
VH Audio Unicrystal OCC copper wire

Overall the sound has taken a large step up and I am super happy.  A few notes about each change, now that I've had a bit more time to listen to everything.

Caps - changing caps had a different effect that I thought.  Moving from the Sonicaps to the MR's was an improvement in clarity, transparency, micro dynamics and sound staging, but a step down in terms of tonal warmth.  Basically the MR's sound more clear, while he Sonicaps sound more pleasant. 

Resistor - I was surprised that changing the resistor had any effect at all, but it did.  Slightly better clarity.  That's about it.

Wire - OMG, the VH Audio OCC wire is a freaking amazing discovery!  It's the best wire I've heard, regardless of price.  And it's CHEAP (relatively speaking).  Can't believe how incredibly good it is.

Inductors - moving to the 14ga Jantzen copper/foil/wax inductors was easily the biggest single improvement.  Pretty much every category of sound improves.  Warmth, heft, clarity, dynamics (macro and micro), separation of voices and instruments, percussive attack, well you get the picture.  Highly recommended.

Side note - I have a dedicated amp driving the top end of my Super 7's, a First Watt Burning Amp 3, which I started with Sonicaps on the input board (only caps in the signal path), and then moved to Clarity MR caps, and have recently put in Jupiter Copper/Wax/Paper caps in there.  After burn in, holy crap!  These caps by themselves were a bigger improvement than all the other upgrades.  They are awesome, and I was lucky that I only needed a .22uf value for my amp.  I'm thinking of maybe getting some for use in my Super 7 crossover, but holy shit are they expensive in 10uf and 15uf values.  Hmmm, maybe I'll try bypassing my MR caps with some small value Jupiters instead....sheesh, this hobby is expensive!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 13 Oct 2016, 02:44 am
Claritycap has a new improved version of the MR called CMR.  Suppose to have a mo betta way of connecting the wire to the cap.  Available now from Parts Connexion.  I have not seen anyone who has posted on the "improved?" sound.  About the same pricing as the "old" one.  Now red instead of blue.....will they sound more red?......Enid....please help us!?!

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/cmr.php
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Oct 2016, 06:34 am
Yeah, they are also  making a  CSA series as well  hence the  clearence prices at PC for the past   bit.
From the  CMR data sheet (didn't look to see if this is now up on PC):

"ClarityCap has taken the science behind audio performance seriously for over
25 years. We have researched, tested, and verified the performance of many
prototypes, working together with leading Universities and respected audio
industry figures. We bring to market only those features that contribute
tangible benefits. It has been eight years since the introduction of our wellregarded
MR and ESA ranges. Improving on these products has taken time.
ClarityCap’s unique CopperConnect™ technology addresses a
hitherto unexplored area of capacitor performance. Over the years dielectric,
electrode and lead wire materials have all been extensively optimized.
However, the connection between capacitor electrodes and wire leads has always
relied on a thermal arc spray of tin-zinc. This spray process results in hundreds of
thousands of oxidized grain boundaries across the capacitor’s end. These anomalies introduce distortion and phase shifts at
boundary crossings and propagation impedance that increases with capacitor diameter.
Our new CopperConnect™ technology embeds a copper litz lattice across the diameter of the end connection. This
dramatically reduces grain boundary crossings and signal path resistance. With improved conduction across the diameter, the
aspect ratio may in turn be altered to employ a larger diameter and a narrower film stock with reduced ESR. The philosophy of
eliminating as many crystal boundaries as possible is extended to the use of premium grade 1.0mm2 tinned oxygen free copper
leads. The new CMR range also incorporates the special processing parameters that in our existing MR range have proved to reduce
self-propagated microphonics that degrade audio performance. The combined result is a capacitor design with a new level of audio
performance."


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hugh on 13 Oct 2016, 03:40 pm
We are currently testing those new caps in our Seraphim Prime.

Will report back once we're done.
Claritycap has a new improved version of the MR called CMR.  Suppose to have a mo betta way of connecting the wire to the cap.  Available now from Parts Connexion.  I have not seen anyone who has posted on the "improved?" sound.  About the same pricing as the "old" one.  Now red instead of blue.....will they sound more red?......Enid....please help us!?!

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/cmr.php
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 24 Feb 2017, 04:10 pm
I can’t believe I’m posting this but I am hoping someone can help. I have had my Super-7s on Sound Anchor bases with HRS Nimbus feet between the bases and speakers since I acquired them 2 years ago. I want to try the bases supplied with the speakers. I was sent 8 ¼” diameter Hex Bolts 1 ¾” long to secure the bases to the speakers. These bolts will not thread in - they are too large.

I bought 12/24 and 10/24 2” long Machine Screws today. Neither will thread in; the 10/24 engages maybe a couple of threads and then stops dead in its tracks. The local fastener stores do not have Hex Bolts below ¼” diameter.

I asked Danny about the correct size bolt – he informed me that he received the incorrect size bolts with his pair of Super-7s but does not remember the correct size.

So, for you Super-7 owners who are using the Super-7 bases, anyone else have this issue and if so, do you remember the size bolt you used?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Feb 2017, 04:18 pm
I can’t believe I’m posting this but I am hoping someone can help. I have had my Super-7s on Sound Anchor bases with HRS Nimbus feet between the bases and speakers since I acquired them 2 years ago. I want to try the bases supplied with the speakers. I was sent 8 ¼” diameter Hex Bolts 1 ¾” long to secure the bases to the speakers. These bolts will not thread in - they are too large.

I bought 12/24 and 10/24 2” long Machine Screws today. Neither will thread in; the 10/24 engages maybe a couple of threads and then stops dead in its tracks. The local fastener stores do not have Hex Bolts below ¼” diameter.

I asked Danny about the correct size bolt – he informed me that he received the incorrect size bolts with his pair of Super-7s but does not remember the correct size.

So, for you Super-7 owners who are using the Super-7 bases, anyone else have this issue and if so, do you remember the size bolt you used?

I think the bolts that I had to buy for them were metric.

I unscrewed the threaded insert (unscrews with an Allen wrench) and took it with me to the hardware store. That made it pretty easy to find the right screws.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 24 Feb 2017, 04:55 pm
Try 8mm.

I ran into a similar issue with the spike feet that comes with the kits. I thought they were 1/4"-20 so I used 1/4" hardwood inserts (I built the bases out of red oak instead of MDF). The spikes would not thread in, they acted just like you are describing. Turns out they were 8mm instead of 1/4".

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 24 Feb 2017, 05:10 pm
Problem solved. I did not notice until I removed the insert at Danny's suggestion that I have four 1/4" Hex Bolts for one speaker and four machine screws (who knows what size) for the other. Go figure. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 22 Apr 2017, 11:11 pm
I still have a pair of Super-7's.

As I do.   :green:

My hearing has deteriorated significantly the last three-or-so years, but I still love the sounds of my partially improved S7s.  The 40-Watts-into-4 Atma-Sphere M60Mk. 3s...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2017Jan07_from%20sweetspot_1500w_zps1ixbgto0.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/0%20Atma-Sphere/2016%20M-60s/2017Jan07_from%20sweetspot_1500w_zps1ixbgto0.jpg.html)
...still sound great.  I have yet to finish replacing the wiring and inductors in the S7s, and as I get older I wonder if I ever will.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Apr 2017, 03:14 am
I'm sort of at that point now, but re: my DAC.  I know my system could sound better with a better one, but I love the sound right now so damn much that I'm just not motivated at all to change anything. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 25 Apr 2017, 06:39 pm
After reading a bunch of post on coupling and isolating speakers I decided to play around with my speakers. I had some plastic furniture feet on my speaker per a recommendation by Danny as I didn’t want to use the spikes that came with the speaker because I was afraid the might damage my tile floor. I started by replacing the feet with some Mapleshade brass footers I had laying around. The sound got a little more focused. As my floor is suspended and according to what I had read I should decouple them. I built a platform out of some 4x4 maple I had left over from another project and place them on some Iso block and set the speaker with the brass footers on top. Not finished the platforms yet, thought I try them out first. Still had the better focus but the extra hight raised the soundstage higher than I like, so I changed the angle of the speakers to compensate, sound stage came down, focus was the same but what changed was, before my highs were a bit forward now their back in line with the rest of the music. I like the change but I don’t really know why this change happened? Maybe someone can suggest why. The only thing I can think of is that it changed the way the speakers interact with the acoustics of my room.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161382)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161381)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Apr 2017, 07:11 pm
All of that stuff will have varying effects. It really isn't de-coupling though. It is coupling. And in some cases you are adding a damper.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 25 Apr 2017, 09:33 pm
I’ll chime in here as I have been recently experimenting with speaker positioning and isolating the Super-7s. I had my speakers on spiked Sound Anchor bases with HRS Nimbus feet between the bases and the speakers. I installed the bases provided with the speakers in order to be able to move them around easily. I installed the bases with spikes initially to compare them with my own isolation configuration. I have a suspended wood floor with carpet. There is no comparison at least in my room with my floor. With the Super-7 bases installed with spikes I can feel the bass being transmitted into the floor and feel it at my listening position about 8 feet away. With the speakers on the SA bases and HRS feet there is little to no bass energy felt in the floor and of course that is evident in the quality of bass and up the frequency spectrum as well. After determining the best position for the speakers I can’t wait to go back to my isolation configuration – the best bass I have ever heard.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 26 Apr 2017, 05:19 pm
I've been experimenting with those new Clarity caps.  I put a pair of CMR caps in my tube preamp replacing teflon V-Caps and found them to be very close and in some ways a little better.  A lot cheaper than V-caps!

I put CSA caps in a new tube amp build and they seem to bridge the gap between the old ESA and MR caps.  Still warmer sounding than the MR/CMR caps.

In my Mini Strata crossovers the CSA worked great on the mid range driver but threw a blanket on the tweeters.  :scratch:  I had to go back to Sonicaps on the tweeters and for fun I bypassed them with a Russian teflon FT-3 cap to great effect!  My minis have never sounded so good! 

My take on the newer caps is they are an improvement over the older versions.  The biggest benefit being a little better resolution and improved dynamics.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 26 Apr 2017, 06:37 pm
I'm still super happy with the Jupiter cap bypass on the Clarity MR caps.  The big gain IMO is tonal richness and variety - it's a lot easier to hear differences between instruments from a tonal perspective. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bdp24 on 27 Apr 2017, 04:08 am
There is a really excellent isolation product designed and built by Max Townshend in the U.K. It is unfortunately not cheap, but very. very effective. The isolation is provided by what Max has named the Seismic Pod, and is available singly, in sets, and bolted onto speaker bases and component shelves. The Pod is a spring, the "value" of which (there are about a half-dozen models) is determined by the weight intended to be placed upon it, the spring inside a bellows which traps the air inside it, a hole in the top of the bellows sleeve allowing a certain amount to escape. If that doesn't make sense (and it probably doesn't!), you will understand more clearly if you watch the video Max has posted on You Tube, in which he explains and then demonstrates the Pods. You'll be glad you watched it, but whether or not you are willing to pay what Townshend Audio is asking for them is another matter!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Sep 2017, 10:55 pm
Just a quick (I hope) note to let you know that I still have and LOVE my Super7s.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168687)
Still haven't finished rebuilding the x-overs and rewiring...maybe this nonsummer*.

Have sold my Audio Physic Avanti III speakers...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168688)
...that I improved substantially and also the fabulous-sounding c-j ET250S hybrid poweramp...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168689)
...so there's no going back for me!


* It's NEVER winter in Phoenix.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 19 Sep 2017, 03:19 am
I hear you!  Many times in the high end, it's about different flavors.  But not the Super 7's.  They are just flat out better that other speakers :P  :thumb: :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 19 Sep 2017, 12:28 pm
"But not the Super 7's.  They are just flat out better than other speakers"

Except for maybe my LS-9s, Tyson, especially now that I have my new crossovers (Jensen inductors) sitting on the floor ready to be hooked up. Pictures to follow soon.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 19 Sep 2017, 03:05 pm
"But not the Super 7's.  They are just flat out better than other speakers"

Except for maybe my LS-9s, Tyson, especially now that I have my new crossovers (Jensen inductors) sitting on the floor ready to be hooked up. Pictures to follow soon.

I've heard the LS9's in both OB and boxed config, and for me (mostly classical), it's still the Super 7's by a fair bit. 

Now, on the other hand, those Mockingbird Audio line arrays Danny did a few years ago pretty much crush the Super 7's, IMO.  In every category - hahahaha.  But I can barely fit the Super 7's in my space (and could barely afford them).  The Mockingbirds were just way too big (and I couldn't afford them anyway). 

I've done the cap/coil change to Jupiters and Jantzens (copper foil in wax paper).  It's a substantial improvement, especially in tone and overall naturalness.  I think it's a combo of better materials (copper is just better than other foils) and vibration control (the paper/wax does a great job keeping everything very still and very damped).

Don't get me wrong, the LS-9s are great speakers, and if I listened to more rock and/or percussive music, they'd pull even with the 7's, and even surpass them in a few ways (micro and macro dynamics and overall scale).  I love big speakers, and the LS 9's are not only physically big, but they also sound huge. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 19 Sep 2017, 04:35 pm
I live with a pair of LS9s, and the 7's are better speakers.  There are some full orchestra passages where they are close, especially deep strings or bassoons, but I'd swap in a second.  Also, the 7's are much easier to install in a room.  Alas, the 7's were never available as a kit... so a really big advantage goes to the 9's in price. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 21 Oct 2017, 05:44 pm
Looking for any help other Super-7 owners can give me. First Watt J2s and F6s are appearing for sale in various websites. I have been contemplating trying either of these but have never had the opportunity to hear them. I currently have a Marantz SC11S1 and Dodd tube preamp. For whatever reason the Dodd is not compatible with my Marantz SM11S1 amp (long story) so I have thought about getting something that would be an improvement over the Marantz amp and hopefully allow me to use the Dodd with it.

In the long run I intend to audition the LIO DHT, ARC REF6, and Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamps to replace my current preamp. I had considered a FW F7 at one time but I am concerned with its low impedance spec which indicates it may not work well with tube preamps. I realize I may be putting the cart before the horse here but its due to the cost of the FW amps being much much lower than the preamps I am considering. Also hope that I may be satisfied using the Dodd with the FW amps.

Any advice you guys can offer will be appreciated.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 21 Oct 2017, 05:53 pm
Any interest in building your own amp?

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#M125 (http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#M125)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 21 Oct 2017, 05:56 pm
If you are looking for an amp to go with a Dodd pre, I'd recommend..... a Dodd amp.  If you can be patient, one will come up for sale.  They are easy to work on (perhaps with the exception of his battery 6qb5 amp) and universally well thought of. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 21 Oct 2017, 09:36 pm
THROWBACK,
Should yours be called the LS-X line array speakers, since they are open baffle and running the 3x12" servo sub arrays?  The LS-9 were always the fully boxed version of the line array.

Just a thought, since it is a bit confusing.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 22 Oct 2017, 12:46 pm
HAL,
I better let Danny answer that one (LS-9 or LS-X?). All I know is that they are terrific speakers.

The Super-7's are also terrific speakers. Are they better than the 9/X? Perhaps, but I don't know how anyone could tell since no one listens to speakers, only audio systems in vastly differing environments. I have made my system sound different (mostly better) by changing: speaker wires (now using Marigo); solder (ditto, Marigo); amplifier output and driver tubes; speaker crossover components; speaker placement (mains and subs); sub PEQ settings; phono cartridge loading, VTA, AZ. And I ain't through yet! Maybe new amps? Clearly there are impedance-matching problems with my Atma OTLs. Would solid state amps be better? Maybe biamping with an electronic crossover? Hmmm? Oh yeah, and what about . . . ?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 22 Oct 2017, 12:58 pm
THROWBACK,
Hmmm...  Maybe yours should be the LS-X9 since it is your experimental speaker.  Kinda like the X aircraft from NASA.  :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 22 Oct 2017, 01:10 pm
So what about the Super 7 is difficult to duplicate? It uses Neo 10s, Neo 3s, and GR OB subs. Are all the drivers standard available versions? So it would be the waveguide, crossover, and enclosure dimensions that matter. I know Danny can't offer it as a kit, so waveguide dimension and construction would be the most difficult part.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 22 Oct 2017, 01:41 pm
So what about the Super 7 is difficult to duplicate? It uses Neo 10s, Neo 3s, and GR OB subs. Are all the drivers standard available versions? So it would be the waveguide, crossover, and enclosure dimensions that matter. I know Danny can't offer it as a kit, so waveguide dimension and construction would be the most difficult part.
I would have liked to see the S7 offered as a kit with a simple cardboard cutout matching the shape of the waveguide.  You could use that to hand sand a waveguide onto a one inch insert to be glued into a cutout on the front baffle. Or even easier, cut out sections and laminte them.  Time consuming, but not rocket science. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: kingdeezie on 22 Oct 2017, 02:26 pm
Is Serenity Acoustics still in business? I thought I read before that the kit issue was because SA owned the design. If they are no longer an entity, what's the harm?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Oct 2017, 11:16 pm
THROWBACK,
Hmmm...  Maybe yours should be the LS-X9 since it is your experimental speaker.  Kinda like the X aircraft from NASA.  :)

LOL, kind of a  half breed,  yeah the  SL9's were in ported boxes, not open but he LSX used a different version of the woofers  (IIRC),  I think  Danny had a  small run of them mdade for the  LSX pair   buklt for Mocking bird.  I like the   LS(X     :)

for yo uguys wanting super 7's, don't overlook the NX  line.  Danny has commentd  that he feels they  meet even better the Super 7 in some  regards .  Yeah, the  7's  will be faster in the mids withe Neo 10's but   likely don't have the midrange punch of the  NQ's nor the deep waveguide of the  NX line that allows the Neo 3 to play  down deep.   A draw back is you need separate subs but if you've got the space.....

I'm not  playing down the   S7's  at all, I know they are amazing  ,  just saying   don't  under estimate the NX, talk to Danny about them

jay


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Oct 2017, 03:02 pm
corndog71-
Thanks for the suggestion but I am not a DIYer. I want to try a Class A solid state amplifier such as one of the First Watts before considering a tube amp.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Oct 2017, 03:07 pm
S Clark-
Thanks for the reply. I'm a little hesitant to try another Dodd component based on my experience with the preamp. Also I believe the Dodd amps are tube and in some cases mono-blocks, neither of which I want to try at this point. Nothing against mono-blocks just trying to minimize the number of rack shelves.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Oct 2017, 03:23 pm
I've heard and/or built most of the First Watt amps.  IMO the Aleph J and the J2 are the nicest sounding amps.  However, the very best amp Nelson ever designed is not on the product page - it's called the Burning Amp 3 (or BA3 for short).  IMO, it gives you the musical enjoyment and tonal beauty of the Aleph and J2, while also keeping the transparency and punch of the F5 amp.  After trying a bunch of them on my Super 7's, the BA3 was the clear winner, IMO. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Oct 2017, 04:06 pm
HAL,
I better let Danny answer that one (LS-9 or LS-X?). All I know is that they are terrific speakers.

The Super-7's are also terrific speakers. Are they better than the 9/X? Perhaps, but I don't know how anyone could tell since no one listens to speakers, only audio systems in vastly differing environments. I have made my system sound different (mostly better) by changing: speaker wires (now using Marigo); solder (ditto, Marigo); amplifier output and driver tubes; speaker crossover components; speaker placement (mains and subs); sub PEQ settings; phono cartridge loading, VTA, AZ. And I ain't through yet! Maybe new amps? Clearly there are impedance-matching problems with my Atma OTLs. Would solid state amps be better? Maybe biamping with an electronic crossover? Hmmm? Oh yeah, and what about . . . ?

I've always felt like that amps were holding those back. And wiring all the drivers in series totally shifted the crossover point much higher and the values of the crossover were way off because of the impedance change.

If you go to a new set of amps then be sure to go back and re-wire the drivers into the correct series parallel groupings. You should note a significant improvement.

And I wouldn't even consider an electronic crossover with these.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Oct 2017, 04:11 pm
Looking for any help other Super-7 owners can give me. First Watt J2s and F6s are appearing for sale in various websites. I have been contemplating trying either of these but have never had the opportunity to hear them. I currently have a Marantz SC11S1 and Dodd tube preamp. For whatever reason the Dodd is not compatible with my Marantz SM11S1 amp (long story) so I have thought about getting something that would be an improvement over the Marantz amp and hopefully allow me to use the Dodd with it.

In the long run I intend to audition the LIO DHT, ARC REF6, and Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamps to replace my current preamp. I had considered a FW F7 at one time but I am concerned with its low impedance spec which indicates it may not work well with tube preamps. I realize I may be putting the cart before the horse here but its due to the cost of the FW amps being much much lower than the preamps I am considering. Also hope that I may be satisfied using the Dodd with the FW amps.

Any advice you guys can offer will be appreciated.

I still own a pair of Super-7's and one of my favorite amps with them are these little chip amps that I built for next to nothing.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124981.msg1317309#msg1317309

And with the high sensitivity of the Super-7's the low powered chip amps go a long way.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Oct 2017, 04:14 pm
So what about the Super 7 is difficult to duplicate? It uses Neo 10s, Neo 3s, and GR OB subs. Are all the drivers standard available versions? So it would be the waveguide, crossover, and enclosure dimensions that matter. I know Danny can't offer it as a kit, so waveguide dimension and construction would be the most difficult part.

The tweeters were a custom version made just for Serenity Acoustics. But our new GR Neo 3 tweeters are made just like them and would work as drop in replacements. And I have a lot of them in stock now.

If you guys can find someone to replicate the cabinets then I do have everything else that you'd need.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Oct 2017, 04:18 pm
Is Serenity Acoustics still in business? I thought I read before that the kit issue was because SA owned the design. If they are no longer an entity, what's the harm?

The drivers became un-attainable for nearly two years. All of their designs used those drivers. So they call it good. It is a tough market in those price ranges anyway. And too much of that segment of the market isn't about performance, but status and prestige.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Oct 2017, 04:30 pm
LOL, kind of a  half breed,  yeah the  SL9's were in ported boxes, not open but he LSX used a different version of the woofers  (IIRC),  I think  Danny had a  small run of them mdade for the  LSX pair   buklt for Mocking bird.  I like the   LS(X     :)

for yo uguys wanting super 7's, don't overlook the NX  line.  Danny has commentd  that he feels they  meet even better the Super 7 in some  regards .  Yeah, the  7's  will be faster in the mids withe Neo 10's but   likely don't have the midrange punch of the  NQ's nor the deep waveguide of the  NX line that allows the Neo 3 to play  down deep.   A draw back is you need separate subs but if you've got the space.....

I'm not  playing down the   S7's  at all, I know they are amazing  ,  just saying   don't  under estimate the NX, talk to Danny about them

jay

Jay's right. The Super-7's, NX-Otica and NX-Treme are all really good but different. Speed advantage in the mid-range goes to the Super-7 but not by a lot. It is a sharper and crisper mid-range than the NX-Otica or NX-Treme. The NX models have a little more body in the mid-range and more of an analog sound compared to the Super-7's.

And the NX models play lower and cross to the subs lower. Not a big deal on the surface as they both produce a flat response real easily. But drums and other instruments in the 100Hz to 200Hz range have a little more nature sound and a little more body, but also a lot of speed.

The waveguide in the NX models is bigger and it allows the tweeter to play a lot lower. So there is some advantage there. And while the off axis response (horizontally and vertically) are great with both, the NX models are a little smoother horizontally.

But for me a real advantage for the NX models is the smaller baffle size and improved imaging and sound stage layering. I am really into that transparent layered sound stage.

Like I said, all are really good, but just different. Personally though I am more in love with listening the NX models. Imaging and vocal ranges do it for me more in those.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 25 Oct 2017, 04:13 am
The tweeters were a custom version made just for Serenity Acoustics. But our new GR Neo 3 tweeters are made just like them and would work as drop in replacements. And I have a lot of them in stock now.

If you guys can find someone to replicate the cabinets then I do have everything else that you'd need.

I could replicate the cabinet pretty close from photos. It doesn't look all that difficult. The waveguide would be the most difficult. I guess that changing the dimensions too much would change the sound.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Oct 2017, 04:39 pm
If you guys really get serious about wanting to build some Super-7's then I do have a prototype baffle that I can send to whoever has the ability to replicate it.

I also can make a deal on a finished pair that I still have in stock.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Oct 2017, 05:15 pm
I've had a few guys asking me about doing the baffles....    if there were  some  interest  we'd  do it but to do one or two pairs  would be costly

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 26 Oct 2017, 04:43 pm
Maybe down the line a bit. I think I would need to build the speaker in phases. Build the OB subs first and live with them a while. It would give me an opportunity to try out a bunch of different drivers for the mids/highs to see what I like. SWMBO would not like >$3000 outlay in amps and drivers all at once to build the Super-7s.  :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Nov 2017, 06:54 pm
Another reason I love my Super 7's.  We're watching Mildred Pierce on the big screen last night.  There's a few scenes toward the end that feature opera singing, specifically coloratura, which is a crazy hard skill only a few sopranos ever master.  Even though it's streamed and compressed audio (via Amazon Prime video), it sounded breathtakingly beautiful. 

That's what I love about the Super 7's, they take a scene like that, which could be harsh and grating because the vocals overload the drivers, and they make it beautiful and highly emotional.

In fact, I'll go further.  I've heard a TON of speakers in my lifetime and the Super 7s are the only ones I've heard that can do operatic singing properly. Every other system, the speakers turn hard or gritty or simply overload when a soprano is going full voice and really leaning into the note.  The Super 7's not only retain their composure, they actually bring out the emotion and beauty. 

Kudos Danny, your speakers are phenomenal and continue to impress me even with ridonculously difficult material. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Nov 2017, 07:05 pm
I'm glad to know you are enjoying them.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Nov 2017, 07:28 pm
I'm glad to know you are enjoying them.  :thumb:

Indeed I am.  I think the 'magic' is really a result of the mids and tweeter being made of the same material, having the same shape, and being physically aligned on the baffle.  With something like opera voice or even solo violin, this makes a HUGE difference and puts the Super 7 in a different league than cone/dome speakers, or any other speaker that doesn't have that level absolute seamlessness between mids/highs. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Nov 2017, 07:42 pm
Indeed I am.  I think the 'magic' is really a result of the mids and tweeter being made of the same material, having the same shape, and being physically aligned on the baffle.  With something like opera voice or even solo violin, this makes a HUGE difference and puts the Super 7 in a different league than cone/dome speakers, or any other speaker that doesn't have that level absolute seamlessness between mids/highs.

The problem then is that it tends to ruin you and nothing else is the same. So I may have contributed to making audio shows more disappointing than fun. But that is what happens when you reach this level.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 29 Nov 2017, 07:52 pm
I went to see 4 Opera this year including the last one ,the Girls of the Golden West .Nothing like a live orchestra and Opera.Here I am ?now i’m really want to hear the super 7 ,come on Jay ,make it happen.

Thanks

Lap
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 29 Nov 2017, 08:03 pm
These drivers have redefined SOTA to me.  Hope Jay can make it happen for folks.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Nov 2017, 08:14 pm
I went to see 4 Opera this year including the last one ,the Girls of the Golden West .Nothing like a live orchestra and Opera.Here I am ?now i’m really want to hear the super 7 ,come on Jay ,make it happen.

Thanks

Lap

I still have a pair that I could let go of.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 29 Nov 2017, 08:42 pm
I still have a pair that I could let go of.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Sigh......

They sure sounded incredible at RMAF. Combined the strengths of the Super V (Openess, Wide soundstage, Easy sense of power, OB Bass, etc etc etc) along with the airy detail of the LS6/9, and then a pure midrange on top of that.

Fantastic Speakers. Everything I heard played on them was top notch.

Still haven't hit the Lottery, but someday....  :green:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Nov 2017, 11:20 pm
Sigh......

They sure sounded incredible at RMAF. Combined the strengths of the Super V (Openess, Wide soundstage, Easy sense of power, OB Bass, etc etc etc) along with the airy detail of the LS6/9, and then a pure midrange on top of that.

Fantastic Speakers. Everything I heard played on them was top notch.

Still haven't hit the Lottery, but someday....  :green:

The beauty of the Super 7's is that while they are expensive, the other equipment you use doesn't have to be.  Particularly your amp, it can be a low powered, less expensive design because it only drives from 200hz on up.  Add in a transparent, sweet sounding preamp with a musical DAC and you're all set.  They are also pretty unfussy about placement in a room. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: rgcards on 4 Dec 2017, 10:22 pm
Danny,
What are the baffles on the Super 7's made of,  MDF? Do they need yo be CNC cut or just carefully constructed? thanks

Rg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Dec 2017, 10:58 pm
Danny,
What are the baffles on the Super 7's made of,  MDF? Do they need yo be CNC cut or just carefully constructed? thanks

Rg

They are made from MDF. And the baffles were CNC cut. The wave guide makes it a bit tricky to make by hand.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: LittleWoodenBoy on 5 Dec 2017, 01:05 am
Is the wave guide a secret proprietary curve, or are there drawings or equations available?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Dec 2017, 03:36 am
Is the wave guide a secret proprietary curve, or are there drawings or equations available?

I have the original prototype test baffle if someone wants to borrow it and have it programmed.

And I still have one fully assembled pair in my listening room.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 5 Dec 2017, 04:09 am
I have the original prototype test baffle if someone wants to borrow it and have it programmed.

And I still have one fully assembled pair in my listening room.
Hmmmm.  Let me make some inquiries and give you a call.  I'm seriously interested in taking you up on that.  Give me a couple of days.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 7 Dec 2017, 05:37 pm
OK, I've got a shop with a CNC that can do the job.  Next question is demand. 
Obviously, price is a determining issue, and that's related to quantity.  But I'm interested in simple interest...
Anyone interested if it turns out to be cheap???
Either PM me or post here.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 7 Dec 2017, 06:02 pm
OK, I've got a shop with a CNC that can do the job.  Next question is demand. 
Obviously, price is a determining issue, and that's related to quantity.  But I'm interested in simple interest...
Anyone interested if it turns out to be cheap???
Either PM me or post here.
I don't think I will ever be able to accomodate a separate speaker and servo subs in H frame(lack of spousal approval) so I won't be able house the OB line source should it become available, this is the closest I am likely to get.  I would be building these as an alternate mid/tweet section for my current H frames, count me in as interested .

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 7 Dec 2017, 06:55 pm
If it isn't too expensive, I would be interested. Would it just be the top front baffle with the waveguide? Since building this is at least a year out, I don't want to store much more than the front baffle.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 7 Dec 2017, 09:18 pm
I’m in  for the top parts since I have a pair of sub from jay already  :thumb:

Thanks

Lap
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 7 Dec 2017, 10:35 pm
I would be interested also

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 7 Dec 2017, 10:48 pm
If it isn't too expensive, I would be interested. Would it just be the top front baffle with the waveguide? Since building this is at least a year out, I don't want to store much more than the front baffle.
Yep, I'm just looking at the front baffle at this time. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: cleestedwood on 8 Dec 2017, 02:38 am
I would also be interested .
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 8 Dec 2017, 02:40 am
......maybe. Gotta see what all is entailed. There is a part of me that is willing to "break up" my Super V's - use the woofs in a new enclosure and see if there is any interest in the other drivers. I would imagine I would need a "flat pack" for a new OB Woofer section and the new Neo's would be in a separate enclosure on top of that.

Of course, then there is the whole crossover issue......

EDIT: or are we talking about a single sheet that includes the Woofers as well?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 8 Dec 2017, 02:41 am
 I would also be interested in front baffle.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 8 Dec 2017, 03:07 am
Since captainhemo is building 12" H-Frame flat packs, can do like I did and just reuse the servo drivers and amps setup and leave the Super-V's alone.  Can always be rebuilt later as needed.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 8 Dec 2017, 03:34 am
Since captainhemo is building 12" H-Frame flat packs, can do like I did and just reuse the servo drivers and amps setup and leave the Super-V's alone.  Can always be rebuilt later as needed.

Just a thought.
There's that whole "storage" issue. I already have enough Stereo/Speaker C**p laying around - don't need any more. I have several sets of speakers that are not in use stashed in various locations. Besides, I think that the Super 7's are a strong candidate for a "forever" speaker. If I can swing the right amplification, I'm quite certain that they will outperform the current room they are in, and likely any room I am likely to have in the future.

(I got a kick out of my last Audio Group GTG - almost everybody said that having a properly sized listening room was an absolute deciding factor on Home purchase. I'm seeing a lot of fairly large rooms - at least 20' x 20'+)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 8 Dec 2017, 03:44 am
I am thinking more about being able to sell the Super-V's to a new owner when the Super-7's are done and working.  I used the servo sub parts until I was sure and then rebuilt the Super-V's that Dan bought, then put new parts in the new sub cabinets. 

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 8 Dec 2017, 03:59 am
I am thinking more about being able to sell the Super-V's to a new owner when the Super-7's are done and working.  I used the servo sub parts until I was sure and then rebuilt the Super-V's that Dan bought, then put new parts in the new sub cabinets.
Makes sense  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Nick77 on 8 Dec 2017, 12:06 pm
What size room would they require? Do they need room to breath like the SuperV?

Is the only pair in Tx located with Danny?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Dec 2017, 02:35 pm
What size room would they require? Do they need room to breath like the SuperV?

Is the only pair in Tx located with Danny?

They will work okay in a small room if you can get them three feet or more out into the room. We made Super-V's work well at the shows in a room that was only 13' by 19'. I wouldn't put them in a room much smaller.

And I do have a completed pair of the Super-7's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Dec 2017, 02:37 pm
For you guys interested in building a pair of Super-7's. I have everything you need minus the cabinets. Parts cost for everything is in the $3,500 range, but that includes it all.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Shakeydeal on 8 Dec 2017, 03:33 pm
They will work okay in a small room if you can get them three feet or more out into the room. We made Super-V's work well at the shows in a room that was only 13' by 19'. I wouldn't put them in a room much smaller.

And I do have a completed pair of the Super-7's.

How much for that completed pair, or is that something you don't want to advertise?

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Dec 2017, 04:22 pm
How much for that completed pair, or is that something you don't want to advertise?

I'll take 10k for this pair plus shipping and I do have shipping creates.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 8 Dec 2017, 04:44 pm
Besides, I think that the Super 7's are a strong candidate for a "forever" speaker.

Yes.  Oooohhh yes!

Some other things that are great about the Super 7's that rarely gets mentioned - They are big speakers but they work well in small rooms.  Because the are OB, they also work well in non-symmetrical rooms.  Because they are fairly directional, they work well even close to side walls.  They are tall but also narrow and not deep, so physically they fit into a room pretty well. 

They are also the opposite of the "ruthlessly revealing" speakers that "show you how poor the rest of your system is".  They are one of the most detailed speakers I've ever heard, but they are not analytical at all.  So they allow you to actually enjoy the sound of your system, regardless of how "good" or "bad" the rest of your system is.  When you are ready to get higher end equipment, they scale right up.  So the rest of your system might evolve, but the Super 7's will likely stay put. 

If you're comparing them to the Super V's, the Super 7's beat them in areas like soundstage depth, scale, imaging, microdynamics, tone, transparency, refinement, and just sound 'bigger'.  The integration of mids/highs is also much better.  The bass is the same, of course. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 8 Dec 2017, 04:46 pm
For you guys interested in building a pair of Super-7's. I have everything you need minus the cabinets. Parts cost for everything is in the $3,500 range, but that includes it all.

That is why it will take few years for me to get them built. $3500 is too big a chunk for a one year outlay if I want to stay married. Build the subs one year and use with my existing speakers, get 4 Neo 10's and the 2 Neo3's the next year, then get the final 4 Neo 10's and the crossover components the third year.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Shakeydeal on 8 Dec 2017, 05:03 pm
Quote
If you're comparing them to the Super V's, the Super 7's beat them in areas like soundstage depth, scale, imaging, microdynamics, tone, transparency, refinement, and just sound 'bigger'.  The integration of mids/highs is also much better.

Well I guess that makes my Super Vs hammered dog shit......

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 8 Dec 2017, 05:17 pm
Well I guess that makes my Super Vs hammered dog shit......
(http://www2.b3ta.com/dailymailheadlineordogshit/correct.jpg)
But very good sounding dog shit... with great bass.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Shakeydeal on 8 Dec 2017, 05:43 pm
(http://www2.b3ta.com/dailymailheadlineordogshit/correct.jpg)
But very good sounding dog shit... with great bass.

Well it's not like I've ever played in the upper echelon, but I have owned several speakers in the 10-15K price range and my hammered dog shit is their equal or better.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 8 Dec 2017, 06:01 pm
Well I guess that makes my Super Vs hammered dog shit......

Not true.  The Super V's are great speakers.  The Super 7's are just once-in-lifetime exceptional speakers, IMO. 

Put another way, I'd totally agree with you, the Super Vs compete with $10k-$15k speakers, easily.  But the Super 7's are a $20k speaker that compete with $50-$100k speakers.  Of course we're seriously in the land of diminishing returns here, but that's what I hear.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 8 Dec 2017, 06:24 pm
I'll take 10k for this pair plus shipping and I do have shipping creates.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Maybe if I sell a car? Anybody interested in a 300Z TT?  :green: j/k

Screaming good price for what these speakers compare with. Gotta figure out a reasonable way to work something out. Sell my Super V's & my LS6's , then come up with some cash.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 8 Dec 2017, 11:45 pm
Well it's not like I've ever played in the upper echelon, but I have owned several speakers in the 10-15K price range and my hammered dog shit is their equal or better.
Hey Shakey, I saw that photo and just had to post it.   
The SuperV's are obviously great speakers, winning best in show by several noted critics.  They are giant killers and have been since their emergence.  But as good as they are, the 7's are better.  The Super V's are high end speakers.  Dog shit??? C'mon.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: JerryM on 9 Dec 2017, 07:15 am
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

Gosh I miss Gary.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Dec 2017, 03:37 pm
Gosh I miss Gary.

Me too man.  :cry:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 22 Dec 2017, 09:45 pm
Sorry, but the local company with CNC manufacturing capability isn't really interested in such a small run.  Thought I might have a cost efficient supplier... :(
Those looking for a Super 7 DIY option will have to look elsewhere. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gab on 22 Dec 2017, 10:12 pm
Sorry, but the local company with CNC manufacturing capability isn't really interested in such a small run.  Thought I might have a cost efficient supplier... :(
Those looking for a Super 7 DIY option will have to look elsewhere.

How large a quantity would get him interested? And what would the cost be per panel for that quantity?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 22 Dec 2017, 11:25 pm
I was talking about 24 panels, and got no quote.  I was hoping for <$200 per panel. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Keithh on 23 Dec 2017, 03:27 pm
Since it sounds like there are no plans for the Super 7, it it basically the same as the Super V plans except for
the baffle? We have CNC machines at work and now have a 20x60 paint booth with a guy that can put
incredible painted finishes on MDF.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Dec 2017, 04:25 pm
I think there might be some other options for baffles.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 23 Dec 2017, 10:38 pm
Since it sounds like there are no plans for the Super 7, it it basically the same as the Super V plans except for
the baffle? We have CNC machines at work and now have a 20x60 paint booth with a guy that can put
incredible painted finishes on MDF.

The Super V and the Super 7 are not the same size. The Super 7 is much larger so all of the panels have to be different that the Super V.

What are you thinking Danny?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Dec 2017, 04:22 am
The Super V and the Super 7 are not the same size. The Super 7 is much larger so all of the panels have to be different that the Super V.

What are you thinking Danny?

I am thinking of exploring a few more sources for baffles.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 31 Dec 2017, 04:26 am
sorry,  deleted
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: johnnybravo on 31 Dec 2017, 05:56 am
Count me in as interested and willing to share in a baffle/cabinet buy.. And parts kit buy too, duh  :D
Was looking at the PureAudio 15 Quintet? for next year but think I may prefer the S7s.
Keith in Houston
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 31 Dec 2017, 01:14 pm
Danny,
Do all of these Wave Guides need to be different depending on the speaker it is used in? Or has your Wave Guide design evolved over the years to a standard Wave Guide.
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Dec 2017, 02:31 pm
Danny,
Do all of these Wave Guides need to be different depending on the speaker it is used in? Or has your Wave Guide design evolved over the years to a standard Wave Guide.
Steve

Each wave guide effects the response differently. So any change requires a change in crossover design to adjust for it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 31 Dec 2017, 05:35 pm

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173600)

Danny,
Trying to find a decent picture of the wave guide, it does look complicated.

About 1/2" to the right and left of the speakers there is an edge. Is this there for audio reasons or is it just a channel for the speaker grill?
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 31 Dec 2017, 06:08 pm
Seeing Steve's picture and vaguely going off of memory on what the back side of the baffle tweeter waveguide looks like got me wondering something for folks brainstorming on how to most efficiently get the needed machining done.

Rather than getting the entire baffles machined/milled to accommodate the tweeter waveguides, could just the raised portions (front and back) around the tweeter be machined (smaller part sizes than even the wedgie baffles, I think?  Most realistically from MDF?) with a fitment/placement guide for both pieces included on flat baffle dimensional plans like those for the rest of the GR kits? 

I'm thinking the rest of the baffle looks like par for the course compared to many of the other kits (drill/saw/router work), then the OEM-made waveguide bits could be glued into the proper position on the user-made baffles.  The end result would be a kit form that Danny could stock in TX that takes up very little additional warehousing space, minimizes materials cost and shipping around otherwise larger baffle pieces, and would still keep the kit something that would fit in compact shipping boxes with the rest of the parts/drivers for final delivery to customers?

I think the advantage to this approach on this specific kit, as opposed to trying the same with the wedgie/otica waveguides is that one doesn't need to make a more complex part (from a manufacturing perspective) flush-mountable front plate/mounting bracket for the tweeter, in this case it sits in an MDF sandwich to both end up waveguided and keep all the planar drivers on the same plane front-back?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Dec 2017, 06:41 pm
I just found a web page of an audio dealer, Care Audio selling Super 7s both new and demos. Here is a link http://care-audio.com/loudspeakersprd
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 31 Dec 2017, 07:31 pm
Seeing Steve's picture and vaguely going off of memory on what the back side of the baffle tweeter waveguide looks like got me wondering something for folks brainstorming on how to most efficiently get the needed machining done.

Also from earlier in this thread (#49). It looks pretty plain from the back.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173605)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 31 Dec 2017, 07:34 pm
I just found a web page of an audio dealer, Care Audio selling Super 7s both new and demos. Here is a link http://care-audio.com/loudspeakersprd

My Guess is they have one demo for $10,000.00 and can make you one for for $20,000.00. Very good pricing considering how good they are.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 31 Dec 2017, 07:55 pm
Also from earlier in this thread (#49). It looks pretty plain from the back.

Sorry that I didn't remember/see that picture earlier in the thread.  That kind of shoots my idea down, as it looks like the back side tweeter waveguide is machined out of/in to the back of the baffle board.  For some reason I had it in my head that it was proud of it.

Carry on, folks.  :oops: :duh:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Joemamma on 1 Jan 2018, 01:19 am
If this ever comes to fruition, sign me up, I would ultimately like to have a pair of these down the line.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 1 Jan 2018, 01:46 am
Just need enough people to be  onboard.... we'll do it at that point.
I have to take the  prototype baffle from Danny , make  a 3D model and 2D drawoing   then  go from there.    There is some other stuff I'm  working on withthiese  drivers rifht now and I want to see the  results first

Just    hang tight

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 1 Jan 2018, 01:48 am
My Guess is they have one demo for $10,000.00 and can make you one for for $20,000.00. Very good pricing considering how good they are.

It looks more like they are trying to sell something that they don't have. They didn't even take a picture of the pair that they have, if they have a pair. That picture was one of mine that they cropped. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 1 Jan 2018, 03:39 am
Just need enough people to be  onboard.... we'll do it at that point.
I have to take the  prototype baffle from Danny , make  a 3D model and 2D drawoing   then  go from there.    There is some other stuff I'm  working on withthiese  drivers rifht now and I want to see the  results first

Hey Jay, you have my attention, can you share any info on the "other stuff"?  Interested in the Super 7 baffle as well.

Happy New Year,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 1 Jan 2018, 04:25 am
I’m on board jay  :thumb:

Lap
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 1 Jan 2018, 05:37 am
Jay,

You can count me in for a pair or two of the baffles also.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gab on 1 Jan 2018, 09:36 pm
Jay - I am on board for a pair of baffles as well. I heard these at LSAF the one year they were there and it was the best at the show and perhaps the best I have heard anywhere. And I have LS6s as my reference.

gab
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 1 Jan 2018, 09:36 pm
I just found a web page of an audio dealer, Care Audio selling Super 7s both new and demos. Here is a link http://care-audio.com/loudspeakersprd

Well, looks like this company is out of business. I emailed their customer support a few days ago and didn't get a response. With the holiday didn't think much of it.

So today I tried calling in and the phone has been disconnected. Then I looked at their New Year special and it was for 2017 not 2018 :scratch:

Now, if my modified Super V's only were the same size as the Super 7 I would be golden with Jay's plan. Otherwise I will have to start from scratch except for the woofers.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 1 Jan 2018, 10:56 pm
Are the BG Neo10s that are available at Parts Expresss the same as the ones used in the Super 7? If not will they work or is modification required, either of the drivers or the crossover?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 1 Jan 2018, 11:40 pm
I am interested in a pair of baffles also.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Jan 2018, 12:03 am
Hey Jay, you have my attention, can you share any info on the "other stuff"?  Interested in the Super 7 baffle as well.

Happy New Year,
Ed

Hey Ed,  HNY to you  and  everyone else   as well  :beer::xmas:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 2 Jan 2018, 03:10 am
I am interested in a pair of baffles also.
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Jan 2018, 04:51 am
Just  a bit  of an update for those interested. 
I've done up a  model  with  some mods to the original baffle and a  dxf.  They  have been submitted  for programming and cutting  .   Hopefully will have a  prototype done  fairly soon that  I can get down to  Danny  for   testing

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gab on 27 Jan 2018, 05:24 am
Just  a bit  of an update for those interested. 
I've done up a  model  with  some mods to the original baffle and a  dxf.  They  have been submitted  for programming and cutting  .   Hopefully will have a  prototype done  fairly soon that  I can get down to  Danny  for   testing

jay

Thank you Captain!

gab
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: johnnybravo on 29 Jan 2018, 12:06 am
Thanks for the update.   :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 29 Jan 2018, 01:06 am
 :D parts to build out,,,, 3500 or so.  Panels ?? Might have to jump.   :D
       Always been interested in this trans-d ....... :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Jan 2018, 07:20 am
:D parts to build out,,,, 3500 or so.  Panels ?? Might have to jump.   :D
       Always been interested in this trans-d ....... :D

Danny's got a fully built, gorgeous silver  pair he  offered up for  $10k (see his post onthe previous page)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

With all the time/labour involved in finishing a  set  to that level, jump on   these

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 29 Jan 2018, 02:49 pm
 :D time is what I do have,,,,ha.  Budget minded as you know. Just need that baffle. Are you just going to make a top piece to sit on the dual sub box ? That would work ,,,, :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Jan 2018, 04:43 pm
If you are going to build the S7's, do yourself a favor and go straight for the Jantzen wax/paper/copper foil inductors.  I also prefer the ClarityCap MRs bypassed with Jupiter copper foils.  Both caps are great, but the real magic is the Jupiters, IMO.  If you can afford it, just get Jupiters as your full sized caps and forgo the CarityCaps (or Sonicaps) completely.  Jupiters are so good, they do not need to be bypassed, if you use them as your main caps. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Jan 2018, 05:59 pm
Are you just going to make a top piece to sit on the dual sub box ? That would work ,,,, :D

Something  like that

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Jan 2018, 06:03 pm
If you are going to build the S7's, do yourself a favor and go straight for the Jantzen wax/paper/copper foil inductors.  I also prefer the ClarityCap MRs bypassed with Jupiter copper foils.  Both caps are great, but the real magic is the Jupiters, IMO.  If you can afford it, just get Jupiters as your full sized caps and forgo the CarityCaps (or Sonicaps) completely.  Jupiters are so good, they do not need to be bypassed, if you use them as your main caps. 

Yeah, I like those Copper foil Jupiter caps too. But it will be $2,440 for the four caps needed.  :(
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Jan 2018, 06:11 pm
Yeah, I like those Copper foil Jupiter caps too. But it will be $2,440 for the four caps needed.  :(

No doubt!  Although I do think the Jupiters are as good (and maybe better) than the Dueland caps and those are 2x to 4x more expensive than the Jupiters!!!!

The ClarityCap MR bypassed with the Jupiters gets you pretty darn good sound, too.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 29 Jan 2018, 07:03 pm
 :D you guys sure know your stuff.  4 caps cost 2400 bucks .... ?  Say what ?
        Danny.  You have the parts to build these ,, right ?  Just checking.  If those 4 caps add
            2400 bucks plus the 3500 plus the wood ,   Hummmmm :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: kingdeezie on 29 Jan 2018, 07:43 pm
Just for my own curiosity, if this Super-7 rebirth comes to fruition, can you listen to these speakers in the mid/near-field? I have been enjoying my set up more currently, having moved to sitting about 5-6 feet away from my speakers.

Would sitting that close with the Super-7 not work correctly?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Jan 2018, 07:43 pm
:D you guys sure know your stuff.  4 caps cost 2400 bucks .... ?  Say what ?
        Danny.  You have the parts to build these ,, right ?  Just checking.  If those 4 caps add
            2400 bucks plus the 3500 plus the wood ,   Hummmmm :D

Yeah, I have everything in stock to build out a set, and I have a completed set.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Jan 2018, 07:46 pm
Just for my own curiosity, if this Super-7 rebirth comes to fruition, can you listen to these speakers in the mid/near-field? I have been enjoying my set up more currently, having moved to sitting about 5-6 feet away from my speakers.

Would sitting that close with the Super-7 not work correctly?

Not a problem.

The crossover was designed with 1 meter (39") and 56" measurements to the mic. So the drivers have blended seamlessly by that distance.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 29 Jan 2018, 08:11 pm
 :D. Ok,  give her hell Jay.  Get a few slip-on baffles made to sit on the sub boxes and I'm in. 
        Sorry Danny,   I'm a little slow on the take.  4 caps are an extra 3 grand my $ ?  Don't think I'll be
             doing that .....  :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 29 Jan 2018, 10:27 pm
:D. Ok,  give her hell Jay.  Get a few slip-on baffles made to sit on the sub boxes and I'm in. 
        Sorry Danny,   I'm a little slow on the take.  4 caps are an extra 3 grand my $ ?  Don't think I'll be
             doing that .....  :D

The crossover parts that Danny designed these with don't cost near that much.

Tyson was just telling you what he has done and is suggesting the much more expensive caps instead.

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 29 Jan 2018, 11:07 pm
I agree with Tyson I upgraded to the Jupiter Foil with Sonicap bypass, but I use Alpha Core coils. Pricy but in my opinion well worth the $, really a step up.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Jan 2018, 11:12 pm
Don’t get me wrong, the stock parts are great!  But if you are the type of person that likes to upgrade things, then the Jantzens and Jupiters are what you should look at.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 30 Jan 2018, 12:21 am
I'll take 10k for this pair plus shipping and I do have shipping creates.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

If you are going to build the S7's, do yourself a favor and go straight for the Jantzen wax/paper/copper foil inductors.  I also prefer the ClarityCap MRs bypassed with Jupiter copper foils.  Both caps are great, but the real magic is the Jupiters, IMO.  If you can afford it, just get Jupiters as your full sized caps and forgo the CarityCaps (or Sonicaps) completely.  Jupiters are so good, they do not need to be bypassed, if you use them as your main caps.

Danny. Does the completed pair already have the Jupiter's?

That would be a hell of a deal......
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 30 Jan 2018, 04:00 am
 :D 3500 for standard parts ,  2400 for better caps ,  $$ for sub boxes and baffles ,, shipping ,, am I missing something ?   That's if you want the very very best of the best ?  Am I correct ?   I can't imagine 4 caps costing that much ?  Is this right ?  Please post a breakdown for all interested parties ,,please.  Thanks  :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Jan 2018, 04:52 am
We're running the  Clarity  CMR's  / CSA's and a mix of  Jupiter/dueland bypass caps  inthe  NX-Treme networkss.  The setup also  has a mix of  Jantzen wax/copper foils in the mid /high pass filters.   It's  a great signature  but I think we may  try   some  Jupiter  bypasses onthe  high pass cap for the  tweter,  not so sure   we can say the  duelands are a  perfect match.    Would have loved to have  gone straight Jupiter coppers but again, the cost is hard to fathom  :(  still  far less  than going say   all dueland

I'm not sold onthe  Jantzen's  yet....I've done  some  direct  A/B  comparisons with the   Gortz Alpha core foils  vs the  Jantzen   12 ag  wax/copper  foils.but that is just   MHO.   I didn't feel there was a    big ,  if any ,  difference here except a hughe  cost increase and  long lead time.  When I did that  comparison, the inductor on the midrange was the only component I swapped, no othe rchange.  Inductors both had a denent  amount of hrs on them.   Obviously YRMV.   

jay


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 30 Jan 2018, 06:39 am
All air core coils (especially good ones) need to be oriented so the signal goes into the inside of the coil and comes out the outside.....big difference.  Make sure you do the same with all coils you A/B or you are not hearing what is possible.  I experience the best sound by having the coils sit on a piece of cardboard.  This isolates the coil from whatever is underneath and adds some damping.  Those big 12 gauge coils are heavy....they are not going anywhere.  You can use a tiny amount of Amazing goop underneath them and also underneath the cardboard to secure them better.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156997)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Jan 2018, 05:18 pm
Yeah, they are all orientated correctly.  No cardboard but  sitting on a  nice  pile of  Dap

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 30 Jan 2018, 05:25 pm
Sweet,can't wait  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: studiotech on 30 Jan 2018, 11:51 pm
All air core coils (especially good ones) need to be oriented so the signal goes into the inside of the coil and comes out the outside.....big difference. 


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156997)

We're talking AC signal here, not DC.  There's no "going in one side and coming out the other."

Greg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Jan 2018, 02:06 am
I think you've got it backwards, if I put my meter on the output of my amp it's D/C.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: studiotech on 31 Jan 2018, 02:24 am
I think you've got it backwards, if I put my meter on the output of my amp it's D/C.

Whaaaat?  You're pulling my leg, right? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Jan 2018, 02:47 am
All electronic equipment operates off D/C, it takes the A/C and converts it to D/C. How else do you explain battery powered amps they don't take D/C and covert it to A/C that would require massive transformer like the one used in off grid inverters. But hey do a quick Google and check it out.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: JDUBS on 31 Jan 2018, 03:04 am
All electronic equipment operates off D/C, it takes the A/C and converts it to D/C. How else do you explain battery powered amps they don't take D/C and covert it to A/C that would require massive transformer like the one used in off grid inverters. But hey do a quick Google and check it out.

This is incorrect.  My lenco turntable had an AC motor.

-Jim
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 31 Jan 2018, 03:24 am
We're talking AC signal here, not DC.  There's no "going in one side and coming out the other."

Greg


There are things in audio that can be heard to be different but the audible difference is not measureable.  All wires sound different....and all wires sound different depending on which direction you orient them......this cannot be measured but can be heard......same with "coil directionality".  In fact, there are way more things that cannot be measured that make a difference than those that can be measured.  However, in order to know this, you have to have an open inquisitive mind and be willing to do very tweaky controlled listening experiments (not blind A/Bs or double blind.....these tests are for those that don't believe in differences)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Jan 2018, 03:34 am
JUBS,  Thats true, but all the electronic circuits are still D/C and studiotech was talking about the output of a amp into a speaker which is always D/C.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 31 Jan 2018, 03:45 am
The output of an amplifier driven by DC power is an AC signal.  DC would only push the speaker cone to one position and then back when turned off like a square wave.  Not very good to listen to.  You may see a small DC offset on the output, but put the meter in AC mode and play something and you will get an AC signal.

Music signals very with time and that is the definition of an AC signal. 

If you would like a demonstration, put an AC coupling cap at the output of the amp.  This will block all DC and you will still hear music when it is played though the speaker.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Jan 2018, 04:04 am
Hal, your right, how does a battery powered amp work? Does it convert to D/C to A/C at some point? So A/C amps take the A/C convert it to D/C for the circuits than converts the D/C back to A/C for the output signal?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 31 Jan 2018, 04:06 am
There's a great story about Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg running a 60 hz signal to his Moscode 300 amp, hooking a blender up to the outputs,... and then proceeded to make margaritas for his audience.  Amplifier outputs are AC.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 31 Jan 2018, 04:24 am
Hal, your right, how does a battery powered amp work? Does it convert to D/C to A/C at some point? So A/C amps take the A/C convert it to D/C for the circuits than converts the D/C back to A/C for the output signal?

A battery amp bypasses the AC to DC conversion step of a power supply and uses the battery DC directly. 

Think of an amp as a copy machine that makes a bigger copy of the input by modulating the DC power supply in the output stage with the input signal. DC is turned into AC. 

Scott's example is a perfect one.  Same idea used by PS Audio for the Power Plant series of AC power regenerators. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 31 Jan 2018, 02:41 pm
Thanks Hal for the info, cleared up my misunderstanding on that  :duh:  Thank you studiotech for bring it up so that could happen.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 31 Jan 2018, 02:58 pm
Glad to help! 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: studiotech on 1 Feb 2018, 12:20 am
Thanks Hal for the info, cleared up my misunderstanding on that  :duh:  Thank you studiotech for bring it up so that could happen.  :thumb:

Glad you're straightened out there.  I was getting worried.  Just remember, audio alternates.  Up and down, like a sine wave, but more complex.

You've probably been measuring DC offset or something on the output of your amps, which is something you most certainly do not want to be there.

Greg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: studiotech on 1 Feb 2018, 12:24 am

There are things in audio that can be heard to be different but the audible difference is not measureable.  All wires sound different....and all wires sound different depending on which direction you orient them......this cannot be measured but can be heard......same with "coil directionality".  In fact, there are way more things that cannot be measured that make a difference than those that can be measured.  However, in order to know this, you have to have an open inquisitive mind and be willing to do very tweaky controlled listening experiments (not blind A/Bs or double blind.....these tests are for those that don't believe in differences)

That's fine, but don't explain it in misleading terms.  That only adds to the voodoo of the process.  You can have you own opinions, but not your own facts.

Greg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 21 Feb 2018, 12:40 am
Any updates? 8)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 21 Feb 2018, 03:20 am
Patience,  they are coming      :lol:
Danny does  have a  moddded/upgdated  bafflle  now..  I'm  sure he'll be   doing some testing soon    :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: para7452 on 21 Feb 2018, 09:50 pm
Pretty interested myself. Love my V1s, but would love more airy, speed, layers. I'd keep the sub cabinets intact, and would build a new upper cabinet for the B&G drivers that would sit on top. If the baffle thing works out, that is.

Oh, hi Danny. Long time. Thanks for all of the help with the construction a few years ago. Wow how time flies.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 22 Feb 2018, 12:08 am
Patience,  they are coming      :lol:

Haha, patience, right Jay :lol:

Would it be possible to let us know what the outer dimensions of the baffle are?  I want to verify it won’t be too tall for my application.

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Feb 2018, 05:58 pm
I was able to  shorten it a bit, it's right around the 30"  mark   at this  point.
Am also working on some side wings that will match up  withthe subs

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 22 Feb 2018, 06:01 pm
I was able to  shorten it a bit, it's right around the 30"  mark   at this  point.
Am also working on some side wings that will match up  withthe subs

jay

Thanks Jay!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: para7452 on 5 Apr 2018, 01:31 am
I thought that I'd throw out a "any news on the baffle front?" follow up to keep this thing going. Plus, I'm really interested and curious...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 6 Apr 2018, 04:39 pm
Yeah,  was supposed to get  an updated baffle  yesterday, hoping it will arrive today  so I can get it  off to danny. 


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 6 Apr 2018, 06:48 pm
Well, I finally did it - got the Jupiter Copper caps for the 10uf and 15uf positions in my crossover.  Over $2k for the 4 caps needed, holy crap that's expensive.  Feels weird to have caps that cost more than my amp.

Oh, speaking of amps, I finally got my tube amp up and running (and quieted down) so I can use it in my system again.  VTA ST70 using the octal input boards and coupling caps upgraded to Jupiter copper caps too.  Very, very nice synergy with the Super 7s.  For my tastes, this is easily the best my system has ever sounded. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 6 Apr 2018, 09:49 pm
Yep, that's serious money for caps.  I'll be interested in reading your take on them after a bit of break in. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 7 Apr 2018, 01:06 am
I agree with Tyson the Jupiter copper foil cap although expensive were well worth in my option.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 7 Apr 2018, 04:16 pm
Well, I finally did it - got the Jupiter Copper caps for the 10uf and 15uf positions in my crossover.  Over $2k for the 4 caps needed, holy crap that's expensive.  Feels weird to have caps that cost more than my amp.

Oh, speaking of amps, I finally got my tube amp up and running (and quieted down) so I can use it in my system again.  VTA ST70 using the octal input boards and coupling caps upgraded to Jupiter copper caps too.  Very, very nice synergy with the Super 7s.  For my tastes, this is easily the best my system has ever sounded.

Wow  :o
Congrats  tyson,  hope   you  enjoy    !! Looking forward to hearing  impressions, especially if you  can listen  with the same gear as  what you  had  when  using the  Jupiter bypassed MR's

jay

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 7 Apr 2018, 08:49 pm
Caps should be here Tuesday, I'll solder them in and start the long, long, long burn in process. 

I have ClarityCap MRs bypassed with .22uf Jupiters in there right now.  So I'll be able to directly compare the 2.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 11 Apr 2018, 01:32 am
Jupiter 10uf and 15uf copper/paper/wax caps came in today.  Just got them soldered in.  Listening to my first few tracks right now.  DAYUM!  These are a huge, huge, huge step up over the ClarityCap MRs (bypassed with .22 Jupiters) that I was using before. 

It's like switching from speaker wire made out of aluminum to speaker wire made out of very good copper.  Which, in a way, is exactly what I did.  At this point, as far as I can tell, there's not any aluminum foil in any cap anywhere in the signal path.  Except maybe in my Auralic Vega, but I'm fine with that, for now - hahaha!

Anyway, a bit more info on the sound change - DETAILS!  They just jump out at you.  I feel like I've never heard this level of detail before, on any system.  It's at the same level as what I normally hear from top-level headphones.  And everything sounds much BIGGER!  More life size.  Hell, maybe even larger than life (which I love).  Downsides?  They clearly need some burn in, as they are a bit rough/gritty sounding with zero burn in.  But even the grittiness isn't irritating, rather it just presents everything with a "Tom Waits" sort of vibe. 

I'll report back as things develop. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Apr 2018, 03:26 pm
If only those caps were cheaper.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 11 Apr 2018, 07:07 pm
If only those caps were cheaper.

Or smaller!  Here's some pics to give an idea of their size.




First unpacking, you can see they dwarf the Bluray case I had on hand:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_2524.jpg)






Here they are compared to the ClarityCap MR that they are replacing.  The ClarityCap MR is already a very big cap.  The Jupiters are just huge:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_2525.jpg)





And here's what the crossover looks like after installing them.  That's a LOT of copper in my crossover now!!!

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_2526.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Apr 2018, 05:22 pm
Yeah, cheaper would be cool.
At least  in a  two way network, there  isn't  a large value  high pass bundle leading into the  midrange  leg,  can't imagine the   cost  if a guy were trying to   include that   :(
Yeah, they  look huge,  I know how big the  Clarity MR's are, they (the Jupiter's)  remind me of the  Dueland PIO Coppers

jay. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Apr 2018, 06:14 pm
Yeah, cheaper would be cool.
At least  in a  two way network, there  isn't  a large value  high pass bundle leading into the  midrange  leg,  can't imagine the   cost  if a guy were trying to   include that   :(
Yeah, they  look huge,  I know how big the  Clarity MR's are, they (the Jupiter's)  remind me of the  Dueland PIO Coppers

jay. 

Jupiters only go up to 15uf, so you'd have to cluster several together to get a larger value.  At $720 each, that adds up quick. 

On the other hand, Dueland CAST POI copper caps go up to 40uf, and those are $3300 each.   :wtf:

That's one thing I love about the Super 7's, active bass.  It solves a whole lot of problems all at once.  And ONE of those problems is it gets rid of the massive bass->mid cap completely.  Much better sound, and way cheaper, especially when dealing with premium quality cap prices.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: OzarkTom on 12 Apr 2018, 08:22 pm
I bought Dueland Alexander caps one time, they finally sounded great, but first 500 hours, pure fatigue.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 16 Apr 2018, 08:38 pm
Jupiter 10uf and 15uf copper/paper/wax caps came in today.  Just got them soldered in.  Listening to my first few tracks right now.  DAYUM!  These are a huge, huge, huge step up over the ClarityCap MRs (bypassed with .22 Jupiters) that I was using before. 

It's like switching from speaker wire made out of aluminum to speaker wire made out of very good copper.  Which, in a way, is exactly what I did.  At this point, as far as I can tell, there's not any aluminum foil in any cap anywhere in the signal path.  Except maybe in my Auralic Vega, but I'm fine with that, for now - hahaha!

Anyway, a bit more info on the sound change - DETAILS!  They just jump out at you.  I feel like I've never heard this level of detail before, on any system.  It's at the same level as what I normally hear from top-level headphones.  And everything sounds much BIGGER!  More life size.  Hell, maybe even larger than life (which I love).  Downsides?  They clearly need some burn in, as they are a bit rough/gritty sounding with zero burn in.  But even the grittiness isn't irritating, rather it just presents everything with a "Tom Waits" sort of vibe. 

I'll report back as things develop. 

After about 5 hours these turned nasty - shallow, etched, flat and spitty sounding.  I’m at about 30 hours now and still pretty rough.  Sigh.  How long is full burn in?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Apr 2018, 09:02 pm
After about 5 hours these turned nasty - shallow, etched, flat and spitty sounding.  I’m at about 30 hours now and still pretty rough.  Sigh.  How long is full burn in?

Sadly those caps should take a long time to burn in. I am sure they recommend 400 to 500 hours.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 16 Apr 2018, 09:04 pm
Sadly those caps should take a long time to burn in. I am sure they recommend 400 to 500 hours.

Kinda makes me want to pull out my solid state amp to use during the burn in.  Save some of the tubes life. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Apr 2018, 09:07 pm
Kinda makes me want to pull out my solid state amp to use during the burn in.  Save some of the tubes life.

That's what I do when burning something in. Hook up a SS amp and leave them playing almost 24/7. I turn them down real low at night then louder during the day when everybody is gone. That will get you there in about 3 weeks.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 16 Apr 2018, 09:47 pm
I found they didn't start coming onto their own until at least 300 hrs and very close 400 hrs they were pretty close to 95%.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 1 May 2018, 03:53 pm
Yeah,  was supposed to get  an updated baffle  yesterday, hoping it will arrive today  so I can get it  off to danny. 


jay
Figured I'd throw out the usual query and see if there have been any changes/updates to the possibility of the Super-7's as a kit/flat pack.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 1 May 2018, 05:11 pm
Figured I'd throw out the usual query and see if there have been any changes/updates to the possibility of the Super-7's as a kit/flat pack.

I just received a new baffle to measure and test with. It looks real nice and rear mounts all of the drivers. Jay could probably post a few pics of it.

So it is in the works.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 May 2018, 12:05 am
I just received a new baffle to measure and test with. It looks real nice and rear mounts all of the drivers. Jay could probably post a few pics of it.

So it is in the works.
Great to hear!  Looking forward to this one
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 May 2018, 01:15 am
Reworked the   Neo3 waveguide a bit with these and put all the Neo 10's in waveguides as well.  Should  hopefully smoothen out he  Neo3 even more  and  extend the  low end of the Neo10's  by a bit 
All drivers are flush mounted in recess's on rear  side of baffle, inner driver  pockets are cut so  drivers  sit up tight to the rear face of the  waveguides.   Driver  mounting screw holes are all pre-drilled for easy assembly.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179555)   (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179556)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179557)   (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179558)

A couple of the  drawing/rendering as well
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179560)  (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179561)

the drawings look a bit skewed, it's  just the perspective
jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 2 May 2018, 01:37 am
Sweet :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 2 May 2018, 01:41 am
You rock Jay!  Very nice.  You mentioned earlier it is about 30” tall, did this change?  Would you share the width as well?  I guess Danny will determine the wing dimensions during tests and measurements.

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 2 May 2018, 01:56 am
...and all y'all thought you had it bad trying to veneer one little tweeter waveguide...  :lol: :green:

Glad to see progress made!  Also, interesting to consider that this would give Danny an opportunity to maybe tweak the design with an asymmetrical wing pattern.  If the baffle width lines up with the "standard" width of the H-frame servo woofers, this build could end up about as easy to put together for folks as a Super-V, with the preformed upper baffle and all.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 May 2018, 02:09 am
You rock Jay!  Very nice.  You mentioned earlier it is about 30” tall, did this change?  Would you share the width as well?  I guess Danny will determine the wing dimensions during tests and measurements.

Thanks,
Ed

Thanks Ed.  There is a basic   shape idea for the wings already and I actually added .5" to each side of the  baffles so they can fit into dado's in the wings.  The inner  dimension between the wings will be  13", same as the inner dimension of the  subs.
I've actually been   working on a way  to have these   bolt onto  the  upper module of  our modular sub towers instead of the  normal top panel.   the  top section wigns would also be  1.25"  Medex to match the   subs    the baffle would be inset into the  wide wings the  same as the top/bottom module  panels so a grill  could be  straight up from  sub  bottom to    top of top section.
IIRC,  the baffle is  just under  29",  I'll open the   file up this eve  to be sure  (watching  the  games right now)

jay

Edit:  yes Ed, they are  713 mm   ( just  over  28 " ) right now.  there  may need to be an adjustment   still depending on how we implemnet the wings.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 May 2018, 02:38 pm
...and all y'all thought you had it bad trying to veneer one little tweeter waveguide...  :lol: :green:

Glad to see progress made!  Also, interesting to consider that this would give Danny an opportunity to maybe tweak the design with an asymmetrical wing pattern.  If the baffle width lines up with the "standard" width of the H-frame servo woofers, this build could end up about as easy to put together for folks as a Super-V, with the preformed upper baffle and all.  :thumb:
I can't imagine that task. I'd guess some form of Automotive-quality paint or spray on coating would be the norm on something this complex.

I have no clue on veneer on something this complicated. Is it possible to use a flat black spray on the waveguides, then veneer completely around them? I imagine they would be problematic at the edges right next to the waveguides.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 May 2018, 06:42 pm
Or just paint the baffle black and put a grill over the drivers.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gab on 2 May 2018, 06:49 pm
Danny - will you be planning a kit with just the baffles, drivers, and crossover components WITHOUT the bass drivers and servo amps?

gab
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 2 May 2018, 07:20 pm
Well, I just measured my top panel of my Super Vs which are longer than the stock panel and they are 25" x13". Do you think there is any way I could get all the drivers in that space? I know I could figure out a way to cover the current driver hole and make the face solid so I could start over but not sure everything will fit?

Greg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 May 2018, 08:51 pm
Well, I just measured my top panel of my Super Vs which are longer than the stock panel and they are 25" x13". Do you think there is any way I could get all the drivers in that space? I know I could figure out a way to cover the current driver hole and make the face solid so I could start over but not sure everything will fit?

Greg

Hey greg
there is enough room  on these that if you  were to cut a  slice off below the  bottom Neo 10  and the  "crown off the top, you  could get to  25"|
I don't  know how your SV baffles are fastened in place but you'd have to get them out of there.
the other thing is,  danny   has not  done  final measurements onthese,  stome changes  may still occur.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 3 May 2018, 12:34 am
I can't imagine that task. I'd guess some form of Automotive-quality paint or spray on coating would be the norm on something this complex.

I have no clue on veneer on something this complicated. Is it possible to use a flat black spray on the waveguides, then veneer completely around them? I imagine they would be problematic at the edges right next to the waveguides.

I kid, I kid! :lol:  Seriously, though, although duratex and grills would make a perfectly fine and simple solution, I would put money down that someone among the very talented woodworkers that hang around here will figure it out and make it happen.  For craftspeople well advanced into their art, this is the sort of challenge that makes the process fun and exciting, if for no other reason than to see if it can be done.

Putting the cart back behind the horse, I just think it is really cool that this project is moving along and more people will hopefully soon be able to enjoy these speakers.  This is a speaker design that was here and gone far too soon!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 3 May 2018, 01:39 am
Hey greg
there is enough room  on these that if you  were to cut a  slice off below the  bottom Neo 10  and the  "crown off the top, you  could get to  25"|
I don't  know how your SV baffles are fastened in place but you'd have to get them out of there.
the other thing is,  danny   has not  done  final measurements onthese,  stome changes  may still occur.

jay

Jay, my thought was to just fill the hole that P-Audio driver is in and use the existing baffle. I just don't know if the drivers will fit in the space I have available, like I said I only have 25" in height max. I don't think I can take them out. Ruben made them and they are perfect, I would hate to mess them up by ripping them apart.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 May 2018, 02:08 am
Jay, my thought was to just fill the hole that P-Audio driver is in and use the existing baffle. I just don't know if the drivers will fit in the space I have available, like I said I only have 25" in height max. I don't think I can take them out. Ruben made them and they are perfect, I would hate to mess them up by ripping them apart.

Greg
Not sure how you'd ever  machine them   while they are inthe cabinet, theres a  lot of stuff going on  withthese.
I'd leave them alone. not worth   possibly  causing   damage

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: GETRDUN on 3 May 2018, 08:36 am
Jupiter 10uf and 15uf copper/paper/wax caps came in today.  Just got them soldered in.  Listening to my first few tracks right now.  DAYUM!  These are a huge, huge, huge step up over the ClarityCap MRs (bypassed with .22 Jupiters) that I was using before. 

It's like switching from speaker wire made out of aluminum to speaker wire made out of very good copper.  Which, in a way, is exactly what I did.  At this point, as far as I can tell, there's not any aluminum foil in any cap anywhere in the signal path.  Except maybe in my Auralic Vega, but I'm fine with that, for now - hahaha!

Anyway, a bit more info on the sound change - DETAILS!  They just jump out at you.  I feel like I've never heard this level of detail before, on any system.  It's at the same level as what I normally hear from top-level headphones.  And everything sounds much BIGGER!  More life size.  Hell, maybe even larger than life (which I love).  Downsides?  They clearly need some burn in, as they are a bit rough/gritty sounding with zero burn in.  But even the grittiness isn't irritating, rather it just presents everything with a "Tom Waits" sort of vibe. 

I'll report back as things develop.

I have some Clarity CMR's coming for speaker crossovers, and after reading your post on the Jupiter caps, I hope they will be better SQ than the MR's. I do have some Jupiter's in my tube amps and they do sound the best so far! I could also hear some gritty and rough sounds when they were first installed.

I just wish these copper foil caps were much, much cheaper! lol

Any advice on if I should try to add some smaller value copper foil caps to the CMR's for a bypass?

Can't wait to hear your impressions once they burn in well  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 3 May 2018, 05:14 pm
Jay, my thought was to just fill the hole that P-Audio driver is in and use the existing baffle. I just don't know if the drivers will fit in the space I have available, like I said I only have 25" in height max. I don't think I can take them out. Ruben made them and they are perfect, I would hate to mess them up by ripping them apart.

I went backed and looked at what you are talking about, you are right, no way for me to do that myself. I don't think there is any way I can cleanly take the old piece off the way Ruben did it. I think I would end up chipping the paint.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 May 2018, 05:29 pm
Copper cap updates - I got my wife to allow me to run the speakers in with pink noise at night at low volumes, so things are moving a little bit faster now.  I wish these stupid things were cheaper, too.  At least they are less expensive than the Duelands. 

As of right now, the Jupiters are still in that "good but not great" area that happens for a while during burn in.  I'm confident they'll continue to "open up" as I get more time on them, because they did the same thing when I put smaller Jupiter caps into my tube amp. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 3 May 2018, 05:32 pm
I have some Clarity CMR's coming for speaker crossovers, and after reading your post on the Jupiter caps, I hope they will be better SQ than the MR's. I do have some Jupiter's in my tube amps and they do sound the best so far! I could also hear some gritty and rough sounds when they were first installed.

I just wish these copper foil caps were much, much cheaper! lol

Any advice on if I should try to add some smaller value copper foil caps to the CMR's for a bypass?

Can't wait to hear your impressions once they burn in well  :thumb:

From my experience the CMR's are just a bit more transparent over the MR's.  I've read a lot of good things about those copper caps.  I think I may pick up a pair for my tube preamp to compare to the CMR's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 May 2018, 06:43 pm
I went backed and looked at what you are talking about, you are right, no way for me to do that myself. I don't think there is any way I can cleanly take the old piece off the way Ruben did it. I think I would end up chipping the paint.

Yeah,  kind of figured they'd be tough to   take apart  hence  suggesting to leave well enough alone, don't want to damage thoose  beauties  :nono:

Using the  Clarity CMR's on the high pass and mids in Don's  NX-treme  networks. Have them bypassed with  Sonicap Platunum (high pass cap)  and Jupiter  coppers (mids).  Would have liked to  have   all  Jupiter coppers but that  100uf bundle  on the mids just puts it out of reach :(

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: GETRDUN on 5 May 2018, 01:46 am
What do you guys think about this idea---> I am seriously considering having these copper foil capacitors made for both speaker crossovers (100VDC) and electronics (600VDC). I do have some good leads for getting this accomplished!

Perhaps you guys would like to state the values you would like to have. I want to be able to offer these CF caps at a very reasonable price. Most all of these manufactured CF caps are way over priced!!! I am hoping to get some prices on different values soon.

Your thoughts and input would be appreciated!

Thanks,

John







Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: GETRDUN on 8 May 2018, 01:33 am
Hmmm, 3 days later and not 1 response? Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this. Didn't mean to get off subject here, just assumed some would be happy to hear that they could save $$$$ and get great sounding CF caps!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 May 2018, 02:23 am
Hmmm, 3 days later and not 1 response? Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this. Didn't mean to get off subject here, just assumed some would be happy to hear that they could save $$$$ and get great sounding CF caps!  :popcorn:

There might be a few skeptics out there. A lot goes into making a cap to make it sound really good.

Values? Prices?

You might want to have to trail runs made of a few values for testing and comparing.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: GETRDUN on 8 May 2018, 02:55 am
There might be a few skeptics out there. A lot goes into making a cap to make it sound really good.

Values? Prices?

You might want to have to trail runs made of a few values for testing and comparing.

Hi Danny! Yes I agree about the skepticism!!

I am well aware of the process that goes into making a top notch capacitor! I was just curious as to which values would be most useful here. I understand that there are a lot of different values for both speakers and electronics. Was just trying to get a feel of the most popular values.

Perhaps I can send you some samples to evaluate in your electronics? PM me your values, and we can go from there.
I have already sampled some, and they are great!

John G.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: rollo on 8 May 2018, 04:00 pm
Copper cap updates - I got my wife to allow me to run the speakers in with pink noise at night at low volumes, so things are moving a little bit faster now.  I wish these stupid things were cheaper, too.  At least they are less expensive than the Duelands. 

As of right now, the Jupiters are still in that "good but not great" area that happens for a while during burn in.  I'm confident they'll continue to "open up" as I get more time on them, because they did the same thing when I put smaller Jupiter caps into my tube amp.


  Tyson 500 hours be patient. The Duelund CAST took about 700 hours to stop changing. Sucks however it is what it is. Hang in there.


charles
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 May 2018, 05:29 pm
Hmmm, 3 days later and not 1 response? Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this. Didn't mean to get off subject here, just assumed some would be happy to hear that they could save $$$$ and get great sounding CF caps!  :popcorn:

I actually  meant to reply to this and got  sidetracked,.
Pretty hard to pick values as so many   are used in different applications. I  know 9 , 10 ,  12,  15 uF  could  be popular.... 
I'd love to try  a pair in my Dodd pre at output  caps... think I can  probably get by with a 1uf on each channel but I'd have to do the math to be sure

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: GETRDUN on 9 May 2018, 09:59 pm
I actually  meant to reply to this and got  sidetracked,.
Pretty hard to pick values as so many   are used in different applications. I  know 9 , 10 ,  12,  15 uF  could  be popular.... 
I'd love to try  a pair in my Dodd pre at output  caps... think I can  probably get by with a 1uf on each channel but I'd have to do the math to be sure

jay

Hi Jay!

Thanks for your interest! Just let me know the value you would need. I should have some pricing soon for higher values like you mentioned.

My goal here is to offer these CF caps at good pricing and still produce a world class capacitor!

Best,
John
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 May 2018, 08:02 pm
Danny, any chance you have a graph of the Super 7's impedance?  I'm about to hook up the amp linked below (Jeff Korneff 45 SET DHT amp) and wanted to make sure I didn't need to do something filter the bass from the signal or something like that:

http://www.tubeaudiolab.com/id237.html

I know that the panels impedance spikes at around 125 hz, I was wondering if that causes problems for tube amps, as they generally like to see fairly flat impedance in a load.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 May 2018, 08:14 pm
Danny, any chance you have a graph of the Super 7's impedance?  I'm about to hook up the amp linked below (Jeff Korneff 45 SET DHT amp) and wanted to make sure I didn't need to do something filter the bass from the signal or something like that:

http://www.tubeaudiolab.com/id237.html

I know that the panels impedance spikes at around 125 hz, I was wondering if that causes problems for tube amps, as they generally like to see fairly flat impedance in a load.

There are no impedance spikes in these things.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Super%207%20new%20tweek%20impedance.jpg)

It's pretty flat.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 May 2018, 08:30 pm
Oh that is awesome news.  THANKS!!!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 May 2018, 09:16 pm
Korneff 45 SET arrived and we are cooking with gas!  So far everything looks and sounds good. I'll test the headphone output when I get back home this evening. 


It's pretty low gain compared to my other amps.  Luckily I have plenty of gain in the rest of my system so it's fine.  2 Watts seems plenty with the Super 7s.


Sounds amazing so far!


(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_2577.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: tull skull on 10 May 2018, 09:28 pm
Looks great Tyson. Did you have Min build it or did you get a kit?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 11 May 2018, 02:15 am
Looks great Tyson. Did you have Min build it or did you get a kit?

Bought it used, from Mark, here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157325.0

I'm listening now and its really a great sounding amp.  Definitely among the best tube amps I've ever heard.  Somehow you have this amazing tone at the same time there's a striking clarity.  And dynamics!!  The Beethoven piano sonata I'm listening to actually made my jump a few minutes ago. 

I can see how, in a larger room, you might run out of gas.  But in my medium sized room it's startlingly lifelike in it's dynamic swings and jump factor.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: tull skull on 11 May 2018, 03:55 am
Congrats!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HT cOz on 11 May 2018, 04:07 am
Wow Tyson, thats a great pickup!!!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 11 May 2018, 11:55 pm
What's amazing is just how CLEAR it is.  It's not warm sounding at all.  Just clear, like a bunch of low level grunge just got wiped away, all at once. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jul 2018, 04:59 pm
Another update on the Jupiter Caps - for a long while they were sounding pretty meh.  Like seriously they did not sound like an improvement over the prior caps I had in the speakers (ClarityCaps bypassed with small Jupiters). 

Then I read somewhere on another thread that film caps in general need to be run in at high volume.  So late last week I had 3 hours to myself at home and I put on pink noise and ran the volume up to 90db on my SPL meter (damn that's LOUD) and just let them go for 3 hours like that. 

Net result?  OK, now they are a clear step up over the prior setup.  There's not a fundamental change in tone or clarity or presentation, it's like it's the same "type" of sound, but simply better in all ways.  Better clarity, better tone, better imaging, better everything.  For example, the hardest test of any speaker I can imagine is solo soprano at realistic volumes.  Most speakers break up or get ragged sounding especially when the singer really leans into a note.  But not the Super 7s.  They've ALWAYS been world class with really difficult music like this.  But now they are even better.  It's just so CLEAR, like you can hear all the nuance in their singing, even when they are going full throttle.  It's really, really impressive. 

I'm still not sure it was worth the $2.5k it cost to do the cap upgrade, but it is an improvement for sure.  I'll see if I can get some more VERY LOUD pink noise break in for them over the next few weeks.  In fact I might be able to get some done today, while we're out of the house doing 4th of July parade and fireworks.....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jul 2018, 05:41 pm
Thanks for the update. I had a feeling those caps would come around. Price of admission is pretty high though. The same can be said for the Dueland caps. Great caps, but man they're pricey.

Speaking of the Super-7's again...

I have dissembled my listening system and won't have a new one built for a while. The new listening room at the new shop will be 16 feet wide and 38 feet deep.  :thumb:  But it will take a lot of work to build it into the ideal dedicated room that I need it to be. It's being torn down to bare studs.

So this gorgeous pair of Super-7's are setting idle, covered up in a corner, and not being played.  :duh: 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

I need to find a new home for this pair. They deserve to be playing for someone. Make me a serious offer and I might take it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 4 Jul 2018, 07:40 pm
Thanks for the update. I had a feeling those caps would come around. Price of admission is pretty high though. The same can be said for the Dueland caps. Great caps, but man they're pricey.

Speaking of the Super-7's again...

I have dissembled my listening system and won't have a new one built for a while. The new listening room at the new shop will be 16 feet wide and 38 feet deep.  :thumb:  But it will take a lot of work to build it into the ideal dedicated room that I need it to be. It's being torn down to bare studs.

So this gorgeous pair of Super-7's are setting idle, covered up in a corner, and not being played.  :duh: 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

I need to find a new home for this pair. They deserve to be playing for someone. Make me a serious offer and I might take it.
Danny - what are the specifics on these speakers again? (Which x-over parts do they have)

Also, what are the physical dimensions and weight? Shipping them out here would be expensive.....

 :drool:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jul 2018, 11:02 pm
Danny - what are the specifics on these speakers again? (Which x-over parts do they have)

Also, what are the physical dimensions and weight? Shipping them out here would be expensive.....

 :drool:

Super-7's that were my personal pair. Caps are all Sonicaps and the tweeter circuit has Sonicap Platinum by-pass caps.

I have shipping creates for them and could probably get them shipped to CA for about $500 to $600.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Jul 2018, 03:18 pm
Update on the Super 7's with Jupiter copper caps - was watching the Criterion Collection remaster of Rumble Fish last night (early Coppola).  The Super 7's are now so clear, so transparent, you can actually hear with this movie that all of the sound work was done later, in a different acoustic than where the scenes are taking place onscreen.  Not hugely distracting or anything, but wow that's some transparency!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Cheeseboy on 12 Jul 2018, 10:08 pm
Just do it John. I think it’s time for a change

Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 12 Jul 2018, 10:44 pm
Just do it John. I think it’s time for a change

Steve
Yeah, I'm this close to pulling the trigger. If I could magically make LS6's and Super V's sell at reasonable prices (locally - greater SoCal/Central Cal areas - can't imagine trying to ship them. I drive around all the time and can practically deliver them anywhere in the area), it would be a done deal.

On the other hand, I'm getting the Frankenspeakers dialed in pretty close - sounding better and better all the time, plus they give me HT/2 channel versatility that I would have to work out with the 7's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Cheeseboy on 13 Jul 2018, 01:39 pm
Just drive around with them in the back of the truck. Like the speaker man in the van.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 13 Jul 2018, 05:12 pm
Just drive around with them in the back of the truck. Like the speaker man in the van.
Should I paint my Sequoia white, buy a trench coat, and a pair of cheap sunglasses?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Jul 2018, 06:18 pm
Yeah, I'm this close to pulling the trigger. If I could magically make LS6's and Super V's sell at reasonable prices (locally - greater SoCal/Central Cal areas - can't imagine trying to ship them. I drive around all the time and can practically deliver them anywhere in the area), it would be a done deal.

On the other hand, I'm getting the Frankenspeakers dialed in pretty close - sounding better and better all the time, plus they give me HT/2 channel versatility that I would have to work out with the 7's.

I'm using my NX-Oticas & servo subs in a combo 2-channel/HT system. All it took was adding an HT receiver with pre-outs and a sealed sub(s). I connect the L&R main pre-outs from the HT receiver (in my case a Marantz SR-7009) to one of the 2 channel pre-amp inputs. If your 2 channel pre-amp has HT by-pass inputs, use those. If not, you can use any pair of inputs.

The key is setting the volume on the 2 channel pre-amp so the HT receiver controls the master volume when watching movies. To do this you will need to know how to set the volume for the chosen pair of pre-amp inputs. If you use a passive or zero (unity) gain pre-amp, you would turn the pre-amps volume all the way up for HT use. If your pre-amp has gain, you will need to know what volume setting corresponds to zero gain (i.e. for my PS Audio Stellar pre-amp a volume level of 76 corresponds to zero gain so that is the volume level I have the pre-amp set to when watching movies). You don't have to be perfect, just close enough so the HT receiver's setup program can level match all your speakers.

The sealed (or ported if you prefer) sub(s) are connected to the subwoofer output(s) of the HT receiver.

I don't use a center channel speaker for HT. The NX-Oticas (and Wedgies before them) are so clean I can hear the dialogue perfectly fine without a dedicated center channel speaker. Besides, there isn't a center channel speaker that can come close to matching my mains so why muddy the system with a mismatch?

When watching movies, all your normal 2 channel gear is on as well as the HT receiver and the receiver is controlling the master volume.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 13 Jul 2018, 06:56 pm
I'm using my NX-Oticas & servo subs in a combo 2-channel/HT system. All it took was adding an HT receiver with pre-outs and a sealed sub(s). I connect the L&R main pre-outs from the HT receiver (in my case a Marantz SR-7009) to one of the 2 channel pre-amp inputs. If your 2 channel pre-amp has HT by-pass inputs, use those. If not, you can use any pair of inputs.

The key is setting the volume on the 2 channel pre-amp so the HT receiver controls the master volume when watching movies. To do this you will need to know how to set the volume for the chosen pair of pre-amp inputs. If you use a passive or zero (unity) gain pre-amp, you would turn the pre-amps volume all the way up for HT use. If your pre-amp has gain, you will need to know what volume setting corresponds to zero gain (i.e. for my PS Audio Stellar pre-amp a volume level of 76 corresponds to zero gain so that is the volume level I have the pre-amp set to when watching movies). You don't have to be perfect, just close enough so the HT receiver's setup program can level match all your speakers.

The sealed (or ported if you prefer) sub(s) are connected to the subwoofer output(s) of the HT receiver.

I don't use a center channel speaker for HT. The NX-Oticas (and Wedgies before them) are so clean I can hear the dialogue perfectly fine without a dedicated center channel speaker. Besides, there isn't a center channel speaker that can come close to matching my mains so why muddy the system with a mismatch?

When watching movies, all your normal 2 channel gear is on as well as the HT receiver and the receiver is controlling the master volume.

Mike
Thanks for the input - I'll have to go through it carefully. My setup for HT currently is VERY simple so that SWMBO can run everything with the DirecTV remote. Bottom of the line Yamaha with no pre outs. That would be the first thing I'd have to replace.

Old setup included a Lexicon MC-12v4 (no HDMI) running to a Classe CAV 150 6 channel amp, and my 2 channel Pre had HT bypass, so it was a piece of cake.  Center, sides, and rear channels went to the Classe, and the Front L/R were hooked up to Mono Blocks - just turn on the right Amp(s), and I was good to go.

Now I'd have to find a HT receiver that isn't too pricey and has Pre outs to run to the Classe for surround duties......... more $$$$$
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 14 Jul 2018, 01:36 am
As long as you are not looking for the latest and greatest, you can find HT receivers with pre-amp outputs for around $400 new. I bought a Denon for my grandson a couple months ago for $430 with pre-amp outputs. It was last years model but still new in box at a hefty discount. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2018, 04:11 pm
As long as you are not looking for the latest and greatest, you can find HT receivers with pre-amp outputs for around $400 new. I bought a Denon for my grandson a couple months ago for $430 with pre-amp outputs. It was last years model but still new in box at a hefty discount.
Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.

I did some research - looked at Denon's current lineup, and you have to start spending some pretty serious money before Pre outs show up.

Hoping to hear good news this week on a separate matter which would make this much easier........ :popcorn:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Jul 2018, 04:32 pm
Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.

I did some research - looked at Denon's current lineup, and you have to start spending some pretty serious money before Pre outs show up.

Hoping to hear good news this week on a separate matter which would make this much easier........ :popcorn:

The trick is to find a dealer that sells overstock, older models that are still new, open box, and/or refurbished. Locally I go into the Magnolia Design Center (inside Best Buy) and ask them what they they can get that fits my needs. The salesperson searches the computer to see what is available either in one of their warehouses or at another store. There is usually something available somewhere that fits my needs and is within my budget. Over the years I have picked up a number of AVRs this way at about half their retail price.

For this kind of discount they were not the current models. They were either last year's model or even 2 year old models that had not sold and were taking up space.

You should be able to find 1 or 2 year old models to fit the requirements you listed. Where you might have a problem with older models would be if you wanted something that was also HDMI 2.2 compliant.

On the web there are other dealers. I would have suggested Spearit Sound but they have gone out of business.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Jul 2018, 04:56 pm
Amazon quite often carries  refurbs   and  / or  discontinued  receivers.
I've seen  some prety decent  prices on the  trading post/home theater at times as well.   Might  be  worth  watching  a bit

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 16 Jul 2018, 05:29 pm
I'm looking for a 5.1 receiver with pre outs as well, last time I looked it was pretty expensive to get a Denon with this.

I wonder if other brands have less expensive models with pre outs. Or if there is a 5.1 processor out there without built in amps. This would keep one from buying something they aren't going to be using anyway.

Greg
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 16 Jul 2018, 05:49 pm
https://www.accessories4less.com/ (https://www.accessories4less.com/)

They sell refurb products. They have good pricing on AVRs, although stock does vary. All Marantz models have preouts.

For an inexpensive processor check out Outlaw audio.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 16 Jul 2018, 06:50 pm
https://www.accessories4less.com/ (https://www.accessories4less.com/)

They sell refurb products. They have good pricing on AVRs, although stock does vary. All Marantz models have preouts.

For an inexpensive processor check out Outlaw audio.

 Wow! Thanks WC,

I just found this Integra 7.2 receiver for $200.00. Integra is designed for custom installers so this receiver has 7.2 pre outs which is fantastic for the price. It upscales to 1080P but I'm wondering if it will pass thru 4k? I would think so but I'm not sure about that.

What a great site for setting up a system on a tight budget. For me, I'm just not that into TV or surround sound but for this kind of money I might as well set a system up.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/intdtr304/integra-dtr-30.4-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-thx-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html#!more
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Jul 2018, 07:30 pm
https://www.accessories4less.com/ (https://www.accessories4less.com/)

They sell refurb products. They have good pricing on AVRs, although stock does vary. All Marantz models have preouts.

For an inexpensive processor check out Outlaw audio.
Yeah, surfed their website before (when I was contemplating a new Pre/Pro s couple of years back) and doing it again for this project. Did some research on them and while most had good things to say about them, I read a few horror stories. Causes me to pause and contemplate other options. Nearest Magnolia is 100 miles away. Not sure a standard Best Buy has knowledgeable staff and/or access to stock that could point me in the best direction.

Still gotta figure out how I could get all of this to easily work. Thought about just swapping out speaker cables, but that doesn't work either. Still plotting.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: para7452 on 21 Jul 2018, 06:10 am
I had an Onkyo Integra back in 1988. It was excellent. It rocked the military barracks in Germany. And now we have moved on. This is the Super 7 area. So what is going on with Super 7 updates? I love me some V1 and Super V action, but what the hell? Baffles? Dimensions? Capacitor values? You know, that sort of thing. Danny. What's up?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: para7452 on 21 Jul 2018, 04:34 pm
Okay, before anyone calls me out on that, I definitely need to apologize. I was in a strange place last night, and am very sorry.

 I'm looking forward to more information on hopefully converting my V1s to Super 7s with the new baffles and drivers, there hasn't been much movement on that as of late.

So I beg forgiveness for my outburst. All audio ideas get us closer to "IT". Audio Grail.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 21 Jul 2018, 05:39 pm
Okay, before anyone calls me out on that, I definitely need to apologize. I was in a strange place last night, and am very sorry.

 I'm looking forward to more information on hopefully converting my V1s to Super 7s with the new baffles and drivers, there hasn't been much movement on that as of late.

So I beg forgiveness for my outburst. All audio ideas get us closer to "IT". Audio Grail.

Don't feel bad, I was a little annoyed too ;) 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 21 Jul 2018, 06:51 pm
Don't feel bad, the thread definitely took a turn for awhile. It happens sometimes and it was helpful to several of us.

Boy, those Super 7s sure are nice speakers :thumb: I just wish there was a way I could convert my Super Vs but it just won't work.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jul 2018, 10:40 pm
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.

I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.

Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 24 Jul 2018, 10:45 pm
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.

I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.

Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.

Woot!  Sounds like more people are going to be able to experience the Super 7 goodness :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jul 2018, 02:29 am
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.

I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.

Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.

Yup,  pretty  close  as is with latest models  ....

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 25 Jul 2018, 02:55 pm
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.

Do you have any pictures?
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jul 2018, 03:25 pm
It'll be very similar to this....

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182778)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182779)

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gab on 25 Jul 2018, 04:23 pm
What kind of wings are going to be attached (if any) and what is approximate dimension of the baffle? Thx

gab
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jul 2018, 04:48 pm
Wings will be similar to the  top of the  original Super 7's.   That baffle  is  roughly 700 x  330 mm  (not including the little  arc at the top)

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Jul 2018, 05:05 pm
What kind of wings are going to be attached (if any) and what is approximate dimension of the baffle? Thx

gab

The side wings look like the production Super 7 just chopped off above the servo subs. The lengths of the sides and the asymmetrical top to bottom design works really well. The Neo 10's produce a super smooth response and roll off.

Here is the latest test baffle. The center section where the tweeter mounts is removable so it can be altered easily or swapped in an out with another one for testing. 

(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/Super7newbaffletesting.jpg)

(http://www.gr-research.com/pics/Super7newbaffletesting2.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 25 Jul 2018, 05:27 pm
So can this sit on top of a dual 12 H-frame like the NX-Otica MTMs?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 25 Jul 2018, 05:46 pm
This is very exciting and at the same time frustrating. 

I'm really enjoying my Mini Stratas especially now that I have some decent amps to drive them. (VTA M125 monoblocks)   Rereading this thread has got me thinking about selling my minis to pay for the Super7 baffles. 
But it's tough selling a speaker nobody's heard of.  Not to mention they are ridiculously heavy!  First world problems, I know.

It would be nice to add the Super7 baffles to my OB subs.  Would tidy up my listening room for sure. 

Looking at the original Super7's it appears the upper baffle is as tall or taller than the sub section.  Doesn't that raise the tweeter way up over the listening position?  Would a lower base for the baffle help at all?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jul 2018, 05:46 pm
So can this sit on top of a dual 12 H-frame like the NX-Otica MTMs?

Yup.
for guys  who don't  already  have subs,  I've been    working the idea of  having these drop  directly on the  top of  one of our modular sections or possibly  having  a different  top  for   the non modular  duals,  .

Corndog,   I'm betting you'll like the  tweeter in the  waveguide up a bit, lifts the soundstage to a  more  relilistic  level like the  NX  series.  The off axis  performance is exellent.   Looks  a  little  "wierd"  at  first but I  haven't  heard  any  negatives from  anyone  running the   NX  series speakers


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jul 2018, 09:05 pm
Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.

I did some research - looked at Denon's current lineup, and you have to start spending some pretty serious money before Pre outs show up.

Hoping to hear good news this week on a separate matter which would make this much easier........ :popcorn:
Still trying to figure out how to swing this - a simple enough solution that my wife can turn everything on/off simply with a single remote for HT, and not having to undo/redo all my connections for 2 channel.

I'm wondering if anybody here can answer some questions on AVR's or best to post on the HT subforum (or AVS for that matter)

First one would be on how your basic AVR with preouts works - If I run front L/R via RCA preouts, can I leave the other channels connected to the speaker terminals  for center & surrounds and allow the AVR to supply power to them? Is there any delay?

 :scratch:

I'm still seeing the only solution as completely disconnecting the RCA's from the AVR and connecting a separate set from 2 channel rig every time I want to listen to 2 channel (my ModWright LS100 needs to be on in order for the HT bypass to wok - the hours on the tubes would add up very quick. We watch LOTS of TV. Also have to run the main amp an awful lot). That would be a PITA.....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 25 Jul 2018, 09:25 pm
If you run the front L/R via RCA preouts,  you can I leave the other channels connected to the speaker terminals  for center & surrounds and allow the AVR to supply power to them. That is not a problem. I am running like this currently until I finish all my amp builds. There is not any delay as long as the AVR has been setup properly. During set up of the AVR the distances and levels are determined and the delays are set for the channels.

If you want to not run your preamp unless you are not listening to 2 channel music, I would use another set of speakers to use with multichannel/TV watching instead of plugging/unplugging cables regularly. You then have 4 main speakers, which also may not be best for domestic bliss.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jul 2018, 09:39 pm
If you run the front L/R via RCA preouts,  you can I leave the other channels connected to the speaker terminals  for center & surrounds and allow the AVR to supply power to them. That is not a problem. I am running like this currently until I finish all my amp builds. There is not any delay as long as the AVR has been setup properly. During set up of the AVR the distances and levels are determined and the delays are set for the channels.

If you want to not run your preamp unless you are not listening to 2 channel music, I would use another set of speakers to use with multichannel/TV watching instead of plugging/unplugging cables regularly. You then have 4 main speakers, which also may not be best for domestic bliss.
That's my current setup, and something I am trying to get away from.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 25 Jul 2018, 09:40 pm
I run my HT in 2 channel mode.  Gets rid of the need for even an AVR at all.  With the Super 7s, I really don't miss the other channels.  I'd rather have 2 astonishingly great 2 speakers over "merely good" 7.1 channels.  The good news is that it would simplify things for your wife EVEN MORE, which is probably a nice thing for her. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 25 Jul 2018, 09:45 pm
I run my HT in 2 channel mode.  Gets rid of the need for even an AVR at all.  With the Super 7s, I really don't miss the other channels.  I'd rather have 2 astonishingly great 2 speakers over "merely good" 7.1 channels.  The good news is that it would simplify things for your wife EVEN MORE, which is probably a nice thing for her.
Interesting suggestion, but don't think it would work for us. Among other things, one of the main things my AVR does as serve as a switching device between multiple devices - Bluray, DirecTV, Roku, Playstation, and Google Chrome. I also like having a CC for dialog (when seated other than PRIME center listening position)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 25 Jul 2018, 10:00 pm
Interesting suggestion, but don't think it would work for us. Among other things, one of the main things my AVR does as serve as a switching device between multiple devices - Bluray, DirecTV, Roku, Playstation, and Google Chrome. I also like having a CC for dialog (when seated other than PRIME center listening position)

Super 7s are going to be more clear than a CC, even out of the prime spot (based on my experience).  Re: multiple sources, I see what you mean there.  I have 3 sources - a 4k bluray player with Netflix, Hulu and Amazon streaming built in, a Roku for Filmstruck, and my music server.  All plug into an Auralic Vega DAC which does the sound switching for me.  Since I only have 2 video inputs, they both plug into the back of my projector, which has 2 HDMI inputs. 

Maybe you should simplify your # of inputs by getting rid of some of those too :lol: :lol: 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 25 Jul 2018, 10:09 pm
That's my current setup, and something I am trying to get away from.

Other options to share a pair of mains you could manually switch cables around, get a switch box where all you have to do is turn a knob, get a new SS preamp with HT bypass, or burn through tubes on your existing Modright pre.  :wink:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 25 Jul 2018, 10:44 pm
Wings will be similar to the  tp of the  original Super 7's.   That baffle  is  rougly 500 xx  330 mm

jay

Hey Jay, is 500 mm a typo?  Driver dimensions suggest it has to be more than 25”.  I can make anything up to 26”, maybe 27” work sitting on top of my H frames, anything taller I will have to consider whether I want to try them on some sort of stand.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Jul 2018, 03:46 am
Hey Jay, is 500 mm a typo?  Driver dimensions suggest it has to be more than 25”.  I can make anything up to 26”, maybe 27” work sitting on top of my H frames, anything taller I will have to consider whether I want to try them on some sort of stand.

Best,
Ed

Me?   a typo?     ,  never   :lol:

yeah,  should be 700 x 330 mm (not including the  arc at the top).... can't  even  blame the  keyboard  on that  one... wrong  hand  !!

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Oscillate on 26 Jul 2018, 07:39 pm
Is this Super 7 variation going to be offered as just the top half of the speaker (MMTMM)
or is it going to be a full open baffle inclusive of the woofer section?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: PDR on 26 Jul 2018, 11:59 pm
My guess is youll be able to order either way.


This thread is stupid.....I'm sure its gonna cost me money
and an explanation to my wife.... :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Jul 2018, 04:19 am
My guess is youll be able to order either way.


This thread is stupid.....I'm sure its gonna cost me money
and an explanation to my wife.... :lol:

 :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 27 Jul 2018, 02:28 pm
Yes, this is all Danny and Jay's fault.

It never ends. :duh: :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Jul 2018, 03:07 pm
Yes, this is all Danny and Jay's fault.

It never ends. :duh: :thumb:

Sure it does, it ends with the Super 7 :P  At least that's what I tell myself  :o
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Jul 2018, 03:13 am
A few  pics  of the  anticipated results with  side panels.  Panels are  modeled after the original S7
s at the same   position....


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182840)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182845)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182848)


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 28 Jul 2018, 01:54 pm
Sure it does, it ends with the Super 7 :P  At least that's what I tell myself  :o

I told myself that with the Wedgie  :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 28 Jul 2018, 02:37 pm
I told myself that with the Wedgie  :lol:
+1  :oops: :lol: :lol:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 28 Jul 2018, 03:05 pm
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.

I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.

Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.

Without asking you to lay all your cards on the table for no reason other than to satisfy my curiosity, any hints as to what it took to solve the tweeter baffle problem without the protruding wave guide?  Unless I'm looking at the latest renders and missing something, it looks like the tweeter waveguide is asymmetrical?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 28 Jul 2018, 03:18 pm
Me?   a typo?     ,  never   :lol:

yeah,  should be 700 x 330 mm (not including the  arc at the top).... can't  even  blame the  keyboard  on that  one... wrong  hand  !!

jay

So roughly 27-1/2" x 13" . I take it 27-1/2" is the height. What's the height at the center of the tweeter?

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jul 2018, 04:00 pm
+1  :oops: :lol: :lol:

Best,
Ed

But in this case it's really true.  For me at least.  The Super 7 stopped my speaker upgrade-itis cold.  Partly because I'd hit RMAF for 10 years (and 2 more years since then), and I've never heard a better speaker than the Super 7 except for line arrays (which I could never fit in my space).  So yeah, for any reasonably sized room, the Super 7s are it, pretty much the pinnacle at least for me.

Why?  Why are the Super 7s so good?  3 reasons.  First, the Neo10 is flat out the best midrange driver out there.  There I said it.  Controversial maybe, but true.  Next is the fact that the Neo10 and Neo3 are made of the same material and have the same geometry, allowing a seamlessness between mids/highs that is simply not attainable with other speakers.  3rd is the servo OB bass.  IME that bass outclasses the upper portion of other speakers Danny's designed, but with the Super 7 it's a perfect match - world class bass plus world class mids/highs is pretty damn amazing.   

So for me anyway, I have no desire to upgrade my speakers.

Now, however, they did kick off a round of upgrades to my associated equipment that cost me a fair bit  :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: JDUBS on 28 Jul 2018, 04:16 pm
So roughly 27-1/2" x 13" . I take it 27-1/2" is the height. What's the height at the center of the tweeter?

Mike

Wouldn't it be ~27.5" / 2?  Looks like its right in the center, vertically and horizontally.

-Jim
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jul 2018, 04:26 pm
Wouldn't it be ~27.5" / 2?  Looks like its right in the center, vertically and horizontally.

-Jim

Looks offset toward the top by an inch or so (at least to these eyes).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Jul 2018, 05:23 pm
Without asking you to lay all your cards on the table for no reason other than to satisfy my curiosity, any hints as to what it took to solve the tweeter baffle problem without the protruding wave guide?  Unless I'm looking at the latest renders and missing something, it looks like the tweeter waveguide is asymmetrical?



The wave guide  has been a continuous evolution, the  hardest partis tht it  is a bit different for each design depending on  baffle  dimensions.
When  we did the  single Neo 3 single  Neo 10  in waveguides, the results were exellent,with both drivers  mounted on the rear and each in their own  waveguide.  Unfortunately, as  Danny  posted earlier in this thread, when   we did the same with   the drivers of the S7, it had  some very  negative effects on the Neo3. 
Now we've got the  Neo10's on the front sunk to a depth that works  with the  Neo3   in the  waveguide.  We've been able to  keep the  wave guide shallow enough  to allow for a  deep  tweeter mount on the rear but  still  deep enough to allow for a   low  cross over point .

So roughly 27-1/2" x 13" . I take it 27-1/2" is the height. What's the height at the center of the tweeter?

Mike

Mike,   
 14.2 " to  tweeter  center

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 28 Jul 2018, 05:36 pm
Thanks Jay

That’s as pictured, without a bottom, correct?

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Jul 2018, 05:48 pm
Thanks Jay

That’s as pictured, without a bottom, correct?

Mike


yes

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 28 Jul 2018, 06:49 pm
That’s as pictured, without a bottom, correct?

Where would one place the crossover? Will you guys offer a matching, separate box behind the baffle with pre-drilled holes for wires and binding posts? Or does the kit consist of solely of baffles, drivers, and crossover parts?

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Nick77 on 28 Jul 2018, 08:14 pm
Without reading the whole thread, I was wondering how much room these need? Would 14x18 work?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jul 2018, 08:32 pm
Without reading the whole thread, I was wondering how much room these need? Would 14x18 work?  :popcorn:



My room is 12x20 and they work exceptionally well in it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mresseguie on 28 Jul 2018, 09:25 pm
The number of pages in this thread is intimidating....has a total cost for flat pack + drivers + crossover parts + ?? = $$$$ been worked out yet?

Michael
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jul 2018, 09:31 pm
The number of pages in this thread is intimidating....has a total cost for flat pack + drivers + crossover parts + ?? = $$$$ been worked out yet?

Michael

True - maybe we should split the Super 7 Kit posts into a separate thread....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: WC on 28 Jul 2018, 10:53 pm
The number of pages in this thread is intimidating....has a total cost for flat pack + drivers + crossover parts + ?? = $$$$ been worked out yet?

Michael

Drivers are roughly $3500. So the upper baffle/flat pack, crossover parts, and misc speaker parts costs would need to be added in.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Jul 2018, 03:53 pm
Drivers are roughly $3500. So the upper baffle/flat pack, crossover parts, and misc speaker parts costs would need to be added in.

Note, that  estimate   on the drivers  would  include the  4  SW12 16FR's and  2  A370PEQ servo amps

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 29 Jul 2018, 05:49 pm
I was gonna say if you have the OB subs then it won't cost that much.  I'm already saving my pennies.  :bounce:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2018, 06:06 pm
You’re still looking at $1,800 for the drivers plus crossovers, wire, tube connectors, flatpacks, shipping, and finishing. Definately a significant savings over building the H-Frames too but still a chunck of change.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 29 Jul 2018, 06:12 pm
You’re still looking at $1,800 for the drivers plus crossovers, wire, tube connectors, flatpacks, shipping, and finishing. Definately a significant savings over building the H-Frames too but still a chunck of change.

True.  But a hell of a lot cheaper than $20K!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 29 Jul 2018, 09:52 pm
True.  But a hell of a lot cheaper than $20K!

You got that straight  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 29 Jul 2018, 11:51 pm
Thanks for the update. I had a feeling those caps would come around. Price of admission is pretty high though. The same can be said for the Dueland caps. Great caps, but man they're pricey.

Speaking of the Super-7's again...

I have dissembled my listening system and won't have a new one built for a while. The new listening room at the new shop will be 16 feet wide and 38 feet deep.  :thumb:  But it will take a lot of work to build it into the ideal dedicated room that I need it to be. It's being torn down to bare studs.

So this gorgeous pair of Super-7's are setting idle, covered up in a corner, and not being played.  :duh: 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)

I need to find a new home for this pair. They deserve to be playing for someone. Make me a serious offer and I might take it.
Danny, I was looking to see if there was a photo showing the Plate Amp(s) and their enclosures for these, but didn't see one. By chance, do you have a photo of one or both?

(trying to see the setup and how easy it would be, in my room, to swap out RCA's from the HT vs the 2 channel rig)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 30 Jul 2018, 12:38 am
Yup.
for guys  who don't  already  have subs,  I've been    working the idea of  having these drop  directly on the  top of  one of our modular sections or possibly  having  a different  top  for   the non modular  duals,  .

I'd love to see the mock up of this.  I have H-Frames that I built, so they suck.  I'd replace them with yours if I decided to build out the Super 7.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Jul 2018, 12:51 am
I'd love to see the mock up of this.  I have H-Frames that I built, so they suck.  I'd replace them with yours if I decided to build out the Super 7.

hey  Alfred  :wave:
I'm also working on something  else to do  withthe  S7's that may interest you.   patience....... I'm getting there  with this , it's taking me   a bit  longer  than I'd expected......

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Aug 2018, 01:40 pm
Took the plunge and ordered Danny's Super 7's. Can't wait. Now I need to get serious about moving my current speakers.


Thanks Danny! Eagerly looking forward to these speakers. I remember how much I enjoyed them at RMAF.

Oh, and....

Happy Birthday Danny! :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: soundofrockets on 2 Aug 2018, 02:31 pm
Congrats John.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Aug 2018, 02:32 pm
Took the plunge and ordered Danny's Super 7's. Can't wait. Now I need to get serious about moving my current speakers.


Thanks Danny! Eagerly looking forward to these speakers. I remember how much I enjoyed them at RMAF.

Oh, and....

Happy Birthday Danny! :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:


Congrats!!  You are going to LOVE those speakers. I think this brings us up to 8 official Super 7 Owners in this thread now :thumb:

And Happy Birthday Danny!!!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Aug 2018, 03:08 pm
Congrats  John  :beer:

Happy  birthday  Danny   :beer:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 2 Aug 2018, 04:09 pm
I think this brings us up to 8 official Super 7 Owners in this thread now :thumb:

I'm looking forward to joining that group in the coming months!  :beer: :rock: :hyper:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: JBELT01 on 2 Aug 2018, 05:24 pm
Happy birthday Danny!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Aug 2018, 06:32 pm
Happy birthday Danny!

Thanks, I'm 52 today.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 2 Aug 2018, 08:23 pm
Happy Birthday young'un  :thumb:

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 Aug 2018, 05:01 pm
I got a new toy :)  If you remember a couple of months ago I got a Korneff 45 SET amp that I was loving (produces about 2 watts):

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_2577.jpg)


Well I loved it so much I decided I needed to find out what a higher powered SET amp might offer.  So I picked up an Almarro a318b here on AC, which is an SET capable of producing 20 watts.  10x the power of my Korneff 45!  I also modded the Almarro.  I bypassed the volume control and the input selector switch.  So it's a pure power amp not an integrated anymore.  It already had some teflon coupling caps installed by the previous owner, but the output caps were crap so I dropped some .22uf Jupiter Copper Foil Wax Paper caps instead.  I also replaced the good-but-not-great RCA and Sylvania input tubes with Tung Sols (best sounding tubes around IME).

Oh man, it now sounds as good as it looks.  Beautiful:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_0328.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 3 Aug 2018, 06:14 pm
Tyson, you inspired me to check out the Jupiter caps on my custom-made VTA M125 monoblocks.  I heard an immediate increase in soundstage.  Singers seemed to have dropped back a few more feet.  But at the same time something was off.  I'm sure they just need to break in.  Not looking forward to breaking them in but at the same time appreciating the positives now. 

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/826/41296787114_96aee51a0a_c.jpg)
 (https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W)   (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79446895@N00/)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HT cOz on 3 Aug 2018, 06:15 pm
Looking great
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 Aug 2018, 06:44 pm
Tyson, you inspired me to check out the Jupiter caps on my custom-made VTA M125 monoblocks.  I heard an immediate increase in soundstage.  Singers seemed to have dropped back a few more feet.  But at the same time something was off.  I'm sure they just need to break in.  Not looking forward to breaking them in but at the same time appreciating the positives now. 

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/826/41296787114_96aee51a0a_c.jpg)
 (https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W)   (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79446895@N00/)

Yes, they take about 500 hours to fully burn in.  Some things sound immediately better (details, clarity), other things will sound wonky for the first 100 hours or so.  The Jupiters are weird, thy go from sounding very open, to very muffled (but still smooth), to gritty, to harsh, and you're thinking "wait, I paid how much for these things????"  But once you get through that, you're still not done!  Because from hour 100 to around hour 200 they stop sounding actively bad and now sound actively mediocre.  You'll spend a lot of time thinking "Wait, these caps aren't bad but they certainly aren't great, they sound kinda meh".  Push through that.  After 200 hours they start to improve and they just keep getting better and better and better till around 500 hours then they level out. 

Only caps I've had that were as bad for burn in were the old Black Gate electrolytics that were used in power supplies.  Those took forever too and they would sound downright nasty at times. 

Anyway, you might want to put in some cheap tubes in your amps during the burn in process.   I keep several Sovtek, Svetlana, new production Tung Sol tubes around for just this purpose. 

Oh, and nice amps!  I have the stereo version of those amps, they sound great.  I imagine the monos sound even better!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Aug 2018, 09:51 pm
Congrats John.
Thanks Sunil! Really looking forward to these.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Aug 2018, 09:55 pm
Congrats!!  You are going to LOVE those speakers. I think this brings us up to 8 official Super 7 Owners in this thread now :thumb:

And Happy Birthday Danny!!!
Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Aug 2018, 09:57 pm
Congrats  John  :beer:

Happy  birthday  Danny   :beer:

jay
Thanks Jay! Love all the hard work you've done with Danny on trying to bring these out in Kit form. I think they're pretty special speakers.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 3 Aug 2018, 11:23 pm
Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.

I think don may be considering  letting these go to a  new home.  The designer  chimes in   regarding them in this  thread...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=146403.msg1566535#msg1566535

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 Aug 2018, 11:50 pm
Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.

That's the beauty of the Super 7 design - since the bass is always handled by the superb active section, you are free to choose a smaller, more refined, more beautiful amp for the mids/highs.  The reason most "reference level" tube amps are so expensive is because they have to be over-built in order to drive the bass in a full range speaker.  Since your new Super 7 speakers don't need any bass at all from the tube amp, you can get reference level performance in a much smaller and less expensive main amp. 

That, plus the 97 db efficiency and the flat 8 ohm impedance make the Super 7 just about the most tube-friendly speaker load around :thumb:  Seriously, you will never ever need more than 30 good tube watts with this design.  Hell I can get pretty damn loud with just 1.5 watts from my Korneff 45.  I would never have believed it if I hadn't experience it in my own system over the past few months.  Anyway, you're at the beginning of a VERY fun audio journey :D 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 6 Aug 2018, 06:27 pm
Danny,  I noticed in your old pic of the Super 7's you have your big blue amps there.  Even though they are pretty efficient, can they handle that kind of power?  I was just wondering since my tube amps are around 140w/ch.  I also have a 60w/ch stereo tube amp I can use.  I only bring this up because Tyson seems content with way less power.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Aug 2018, 07:12 pm
Danny,  I noticed in your old pic of the Super 7's you have your big blue amps there.  Even though they are pretty efficient, can they handle that kind of power?  I was just wondering since my tube amps are around 140w/ch.  I also have a 60w/ch stereo tube amp I can use.  I only bring this up because Tyson seems content with way less power.

They sounded great with those amps, but I had plenty of power to spare. Nothing wrong with having a lot of power. It's just a lot more expensive to produce a lot of power cleanly.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 9 Aug 2018, 04:56 pm
Hey Danny, I've noticed that with the Super 7 Neo 10 drivers, it's not really necessary to limit the low frequencies that you send to them - they sound fine and they don't get damaged, even when sending very loud/dynamic full frequency signals to them. 

Why is that?  With other speakers, it's often necessary to high pass the midrange driver or the driver can get damaged - what is it about the Neo 10's that makes them not need that?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Aug 2018, 09:07 pm
Hey Danny, I've noticed that with the Super 7 Neo 10 drivers, it's not really necessary to limit the low frequencies that you send to them - they sound fine and they don't get damaged, even when sending very loud/dynamic full frequency signals to them. 

Why is that?  With other speakers, it's often necessary to high pass the midrange driver or the driver can get damaged - what is it about the Neo 10's that makes them not need that?

Drivers have mechanical limits and thermal limits.

The Neo 10's simply run out of mechanical travel pretty easily and simply can't move enough air to produce lower ranges. And unlike cone drivers they won't bottom out or beat themselves up if driven too hard in a lower range. The diaphragm will move as far as it can and that's it. So they just physically won't play down very low.

And each driver can handle about ten watts or so with a full range signal without hurting them at all. Times four drivers they'll be playing pretty loud before they are even being driven hard.

Limiting the low end signal does help a little and minimizes diaphragm movement. You guys just aren't playing them hard enough for it to matter too much.

Thermally they can handle 100 watts each easily and continuously if the power is clean. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Aug 2018, 01:08 am
Drivers have mechanical limits and thermal limits.

The Neo 10's simply run out of mechanical travel pretty easily and simply can't move enough air to produce lower ranges. And unlike cone drivers they won't bottom out or beat themselves up if driven too hard in a lower range. The diaphragm will move as far as it can and that's it. So they just physically won't play down very low.

And each driver can handle about ten watts or so with a full range signal without hurting them at all. Times four drivers they'll be playing pretty loud before they are even being driven hard.

Limiting the low end signal does help a little and minimizes diaphragm movement. You guys just aren't playing them hard enough for it to matter too much.

Thermally they can handle 100 watts each easily and continuously if the power is clean. 

Interesting!  So, 10 watts per panel, with 4 panels that's 40 watts continuous (not peaks!) before they even start to sweat.  Hmm, lets see how loud that is.  Since they're 97db efficient, 1 watt is making 97db at 1 meter.  2 watts is 100db.  4 watts is 103db.  8 watts is 106db.  16 watts is 109db.  32 watts is 112db.  So 40 watt is around 113db.  Continuous!!!  Holy shit!

Yeah, you are right, I'm not playing them anywhere near their limits :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2018, 01:22 am
Interesting!  So, 10 watts per panel, with 4 panels that's 40 watts continuous (not peaks!) before they even start to sweat.  Hmm, lets see how loud that is.  Since they're 97db efficient, 1 watt is making 97db at 1 meter.  2 watts is 100db.  4 watts is 103db.  8 watts is 106db.  16 watts is 109db.  32 watts is 112db.  So 40 watt is around 113db.  Continuous!!!  Holy shit!

Yeah, you are right, I'm not playing them anywhere near their limits :thumb:

Yeah, but by 2 meters you're down 6db from the distance doubling.

That's still really loud.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: nrenter on 10 Aug 2018, 03:06 pm
Danny,

Just curious...When you were designing the Super 7 (and / or redesigning the DIY version), why didn't you go with a thin vertical MM T MM arrangement to minimize baffle width (kinda like the wedgie)? Why the compact horizontal arrangement? Was there a sonic advantage or was it simply to better aesthetically sit atop the OB sub?

- Nicholas
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 10 Aug 2018, 03:47 pm
Danny,

Just curious...When you were designing the Super 7 (and / or redesigning the DIY version), why didn't you go with a thin vertical MM T MM arrangement to minimize baffle width (kinda like the wedgie)? Why the compact horizontal arrangement? Was there a sonic advantage or was it simply to better aesthetically sit atop the OB sub?

- Nicholas

I could be wrong but I think the acoustic centers of the pair of  Neo10 stacked lengthwise below and above the tweeter in a waveguide would be too far apart.
Additionally, the "all in one" design is really  nice,  saves the footprint of having  separate subs .

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2018, 08:46 pm
Danny,

Just curious...When you were designing the Super 7 (and / or redesigning the DIY version), why didn't you go with a thin vertical MM T MM arrangement to minimize baffle width (kinda like the wedgie)? Why the compact horizontal arrangement? Was there a sonic advantage or was it simply to better aesthetically sit atop the OB sub?

- Nicholas

Jay is correct. The acoustic centers would be so far apart that they'd have to cross to the tweeter at 900Hz or less for that to work. That wouldn't be possible.

Good question though.

And on their sides they do match the width of the servo subs pretty well. It worked.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: nrenter on 10 Aug 2018, 09:03 pm
Cool. Since we're on the subject, what about something like this (not to scale)?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183274)

How would this impact wave propagation? Significantly different than the current Super-7 design?

I think about the "swarm" approach of the Tekton Design Impact Monitor.

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/718tek.promo_.jpg)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-impact-monitor-loudspeaker

I haven't heard it...but the measurements don't look awful (regardless of how ridiculous is looks).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2018, 09:16 pm
Cool. Since we're on the subject, what about something like this (not to scale)?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183274)

How would this impact wave propagation? Significantly different than the current Super-7 design?

I think about the "swarm" approach of the Tekton Design Impact Monitor.

(https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/718tek.promo_.jpg)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-impact-monitor-loudspeaker

I haven't heard it...but the measurements don't look awful (regardless of how ridiculous is looks).

That's an interesting idea.

I had to go lay the drivers out and take some measurements of that. If I lay the Neo 10's edge to edge then they make a 14.75" diameter square. So they would need a 15" baffle.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 11 Aug 2018, 12:19 am
That's an interesting idea.

I had to go lay the drivers out and take some measurements of that. If I lay the Neo 10's edge to edge then they make a 14.75" diameter square. So they would need a 15" baffle.

... so you're saying you might have found a use for 15" OB servo woofers after all?  :wink: :green:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: 2bigears on 11 Aug 2018, 03:22 am
 :D is this a more the better thing ?  Could one 15" per side work with this if ? 
         KISS kinda thing ?    :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Aug 2018, 04:58 pm
:D is this a more the better thing ?  Could one 15" per side work with this if ? 
         KISS kinda thing ?    :D

The moving mass goes up a lot with larger cones and so does control.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Aug 2018, 05:05 pm
You guys could stack Neo 8's around a Neo 3 like that and have a baffle that is 11.5" total width.

That would get you down to a crossover point of about 850Hz to 1kHz from the Neo 8's to whatever the other drivers are.

You could then stack a pair of Neo 10's under and above that group and make it work. That would be quite a stack of Neo's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 16 Aug 2018, 08:45 pm
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running.

First of all, they were packed extremely well and showed up in perfect condition. Managed to get the tops off and some of the extra goodies out of the boxes, then move them inside by myself.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183440)


At that point, I decided I needed to wait for another pair of hands to help get them out of their crates, so I had to wait.....grrrrrrr.

It was worth the wait....


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183441)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183442)
(Ignore all the extra wires - still experimenting )

These Speakers are GORGEOUS!

Danny also sent along the custom Folsom Chip Amp for me to try out.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183443)

It took a bit to get everything up and running, mostly due to operator error.

WOW!

I mean just WOW!  :o :o

I am still working on placement with PEQ off to get the Bass and soundstage  to the best compromise before I start trying to dial in the bass. I know I have some work ahead of me, but so far I am just blown away.

Air. Detail. Speed. - These are the first descriptors that come to mind with regard to differences from my old setup.

I'll report back with updates, but for now I have a houseful of Relatives about to show up, and I have to get things cleaned up.  :banghead:

THANKS DANNY!!!  :thumb: :wave:



Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Aug 2018, 01:11 am
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running.

It took a bit to get everything up and running, mostly due to operator error.

WOW!

I mean just WOW!  :o :o

I am still working on placement with PEQ off to get the Bass and soundstage  to the best compromise before I start trying to dial in the bass. I know I have some work ahead of me, but so far I am just blown away.

Air. Detail. Speed. - These are the first descriptors that come to mind with regard to differences from my old setup.

I'll report back with updates, but for now I have a houseful of Relatives about to show up, and I have to get things cleaned up.  :banghead:

THANKS DANNY!!!  :thumb: :wave:

Welcome to the club!  Seriously, the Super 7's are a once in a lifetime opportunity to own a TRUE world class speaker for (relatively) chump change.    I'm really curious to hear your ongoing impressions of them as you get them more and more dialed in.  My own experience is that they are not super fussy with positioning or with upstream equipment - they sound good almost no matter what you have or where you put them.  But when you improve those other things, the Super 7's just scale up effortlessly.

AND you're gonna have a lot of fun playing around with different amps for the top sections   :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 18 Aug 2018, 02:20 am
Tyson, I have read your praise of the Spatial X2s which I own.  Wonder how you would compare them to the Super-7s.  I think the AMT wide range driver is really good in the X2s, and after making some position changes I'm getting better bass, and overall they sound amazing to me.  Best sound I've had so far.  But still think bass impact could be better.  Have been thinking of getting some flat packs and associated parts for a couple of GR dual OB subs.  But maybe the Super-7 instead?

Jeff 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Aug 2018, 03:06 am
Tyson, I have read your praise of the Spatial X2s which I own.  Wonder how you would compare them to the Super-7s.  I think the AMT wide range driver is really good in the X2s, and after making some position changes I'm getting better bass, and overall they sound amazing to me.  Best sound I've had so far.  But still think bass impact could be better.  Have been thinking of getting some flat packs and associated parts for a couple of GR dual OB subs.  But maybe the Super-7 instead?

Jeff 

IMO the AMT is the best tweeter in the world (or that I've ever heard), and the waveguided OB Neo3 in the Super 7 is the 2nd best tweeter in the world :P  On the other hand, I think the Neo 10 might just be the best midrange driver in the world.  However the X2 mid driver is no slouch!!  And Clayton did an amazing job integrating them.  Bass, well no question the Super 7 bass is just in a higher class. 

Put another way, everything that the AMT driver covers is better than the Super 7.  Everything that the AMT does not cover, the Super 7 is better.  IMO and IME and all that.....

Does that help?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 18 Aug 2018, 04:54 am
Yes quit a bit, thanks.  At a minimum I can improve the bottom end with GR OB bass.  Beyond that it sounds to me the Super-7 might be better overall. Need to figure the net cost of making the change. The hassle of changing is part of the calculation, because I’m very happy with the X2s.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Cheeseboy on 18 Aug 2018, 05:43 pm
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running.

First of all, they were packed extremely well and showed up in perfect condition. Managed to get the tops off and some of the extra goodies out of the boxes, then move them inside by myself.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183440)

When is our crew from No Cal coming to visit? 

We can’t wait to hear them. I’m so happy for you.

Cheese


At that point, I decided I needed to wait for another pair of hands to help get them out of their crates, so I had to wait.....grrrrrrr.

It was worth the wait....


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183441)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183442)
(Ignore all the extra wires - still experimenting )

These Speakers are GORGEOUS!

Danny also sent along the custom Folsom Chip Amp for me to try out.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183443)

It took a bit to get everything up and running, mostly due to operator error.

WOW!

I mean just WOW!  :o :o

I am still working on placement with PEQ off to get the Bass and soundstage  to the best compromise before I start trying to dial in the bass. I know I have some work ahead of me, but so far I am just blown away.

Air. Detail. Speed. - These are the first descriptors that come to mind with regard to differences from my old setup.

I'll report back with updates, but for now I have a houseful of Relatives about to show up, and I have to get things cleaned up.  :banghead:

THANKS DANNY!!!  :thumb: :wave:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 18 Aug 2018, 06:40 pm
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running....

Congratulations!  I remember what is now years ago hearing you plant the seeds in your head about someday getting a pair of these, and trying to talk yourself in to them sooner rather than later.  There are a lot of folks here at AC that I admire in their pursuit of this hobby, showing what really great things one can have with a good measure of patience and perseverance.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 18 Aug 2018, 08:13 pm
When is our crew from No Cal coming to visit? 

We can’t wait to hear them. I’m so happy for you.

Cheese


Thanks. Been trying to figure it out and trying to see if the Weekend of Sept 28/29 or Oct 6/7 might work for everybody.
We have one extra bed and 1 Futon in an Office.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Cheeseboy on 19 Aug 2018, 06:20 am
I’ve got an inflatable. I’ll check the dates. Early oct would be better for me.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 27 Aug 2018, 04:24 pm
Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.

Hey Danny,  any news on this?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Aug 2018, 05:01 pm
Hey Danny,  any news on this?

Erse never got anywhere with it. They couldn't get a wax paper film to work.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 30 Aug 2018, 12:37 am
OK, time for more fun!  Here's my latest pickup:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_0423.jpg)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/IMG_0424.jpg)


Its an Inspire MB12 single ended pentode amp designed by Dennis Had.

Do you guys know who Dennis Had is?  He was the founder of Cary Audio and the designer of all their gear.  But the company grew too big & he got fed up working at a big company so he quit/retired.  These Inspire amps are basically him just experimenting in his garage with cool ideas that they wouldn’t let him do at Cary.

The coolest things about these amps is that they are built to be able to tube roll like mad. 

For example, the Rectifier can be a type 80, 5y3, 5u4, 5v4, or a 5ar4.

The input tube can be a 6bx7, a 6sl7 or a 6sn7.

And craziest of all, output tubes.  They can be a 6v6, el84, 6L6, EL34, 6AR6WA, 6CA7, KT66, KT77, KT88, KT120, KT150, 6550, 807, 350B,  and a few others that escape me at the moment.

The KT150 gives about 14 watts, the KT88/6550 gives 12 watts, the EL34/6L6/KT66/KT77/6CA7 give about 7 watts, the EL84 gives 2 watts.

So, uhm yeah..... I'm gonna have a BLAST tube rolling!!!  I have a TON of pentode output tubes, a bunch of 6sn7 (and 6sl7) input tubes, and a fair number of rectifiers too.  We'll see how it sounds. 

I'll say this, I dropped in a some vintage GE 6SN7 input tubes, some new production Gold Lion KT77s and a pair of vintage Tung Sol 5U4G rectifiers and it sounds exceptional right out of the gate.  Man, these amps can boogie!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 30 Aug 2018, 04:59 am
I had a Dennis Had Inspire.  Great amp, you will love yours.  Only reason for selling mine, current speakers need more power.



(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183849)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183850)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183851)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 30 Aug 2018, 03:56 pm
What tubes did you roll in it?  And which ones did you settle on as the best sounding?  Here's what I have for output tubes:

Tung Sol 6V6GT (2) Old Production
National Union 6V6GT (2)

Phillips (Dupont) EL84 (2)

Tung Sol 6AR6WA (3) Old Production

National Union 807 (2)

Russian 6N3CE (6)

Electro Harmonix EL34 (6)
Mullard EL34 (2) New Production
Svetlana EL34 (2)

Gold Lion KT66 (6)

Gold Lion KT77 (2)

Black Treasure KT88 (6)
Gold Lion KT88 (5)
Sovtek KT88 (3)
Penta Labs KT88-SC (5)

Tung Sol KT150 (2) New Production
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 30 Aug 2018, 04:57 pm
When I bought the amp my speakers were Tonian Labs Classic 12.1S and a couple of tube combinations I liked best were 1967 vintage Holland 6V6GT output tubes with Psvane CV-181 input driver and Brimar 5Z4GY NOS rectifier, or NOS Zenith 6V6G coke bottle output tubes with the same CV-181 or Raytheon JAN 6SN7GT, and a RCA 5Y3 rectifier.

Later I used the amp with Spatial M3 Triode Masters and tubes I liked best were JJ KT88 or Genalex Gold Lion KT77 output tubes and the CV-181 with a vintage RCA 5U4G rectifier.  With the amp I had, the choice of rectifier had a large impact on the sound.  That's not true on the more recent amps Dennis is making. 

You have a lot more output tubes to try, should be fun.  The only others I had were JJ 6V6S and they didn't sound as good as the 6V6's I mentioned above.

There is a forum dedicated to these Dennis Had amps on Audio Aficionado.  It's very long but lots of information on tubes others are using.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=24170&page=488



 




Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 30 Aug 2018, 05:39 pm
Thanks!  Everyone says the new production CV-181 is a great tube, I should probably break down and buy a pair.

My amps were built in 2014 (got them used), so I think mine are still pretty sensitive to rectifier tube changes.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 31 Aug 2018, 01:07 am
I just sold a pair of Dennis Had Inspire mono blocks and they were very very good amps. If they would have had just a bit more power I would have kept them.

I really like them a lot!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Aug 2018, 01:44 am
It sounds like we need to get a few more of you guys into some 97db sensitivity Super-7's so you can use your favorite low powered tube amps.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 31 Aug 2018, 02:27 am
It sounds like we need to get a few more of you guys into some 97db sensitivity Super-7's so you can use your favorite low powered tube amps.

Yeah, or pick up some  more  ooomph   
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159401.0

 :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: gregfisk on 31 Aug 2018, 05:51 am
It sounds like we need to get a few more of you guys into some 97db sensitivity Super-7's so you can use your favorite low powered tube amps.

Well, my Super Vs are 97db efficient correct? In my 20'x30'x10' room I seem to need at least 35wpc with tube amps and much more with the solid state amps I have tried. I will say that I like to listen loud at times and of course there are the older recordings that generally aren't recorded as loud.

The Dennis Had Inspire QMB-25 Mono Blocks are rated at 25wpc and they could almost do what I needed them to do. Just a bit more would have been perfect. These amps, like I mentioned are very nice sounding and very quiet as well.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 31 Aug 2018, 06:02 am
Well, my Super Vs are 97db efficient correct? In my 20'x30'x10' room I seem to need at least 35wpc with tube amps and much more with the solid state amps I have tried. I will say that I like to listen loud at times and of course there are the older recordings that generally aren't recorded as loud.

The Dennis Had Inspire QMB-25 Mono Blocks are rated at 25wpc and they could almost do what I needed them to do. Just a bit more would have been perfect. These amps, like I mentioned are very nice sounding and very quiet as well.

I had the V-2s and I agree, they really do need about 30 watts or more (similar to your experience with the Super Vs).  But the Super 7s are different - they do a lot better with low power amps. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 31 Aug 2018, 01:12 pm
Dang Greg, you have a pretty big room. That's great man, but you will need a little more power to fill a room that big.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: emailtim on 15 Oct 2018, 09:43 pm
Erse never got anywhere with it. They couldn't get a wax paper film to work.

=(
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Oct 2018, 06:10 pm
I just measured and tested Jay's latest CNC cut baffle for these and it worked great.

We can now re-release these as a kit.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Oct 2018, 06:39 pm
I just measured and tested Jay's latest CNC cut baffle for these and it worked great.

We can now re-release these as a kit.

Great!!   Price and options?  Full speaker and monitor version
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Oct 2018, 06:41 pm
Great!!   Price and options?

I think I can put all the parts together including some Platinum by-pass caps for the tweeter circuit and still keep the whole kit under $3,900.

Jay is working on the flat pack cost right now.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Oct 2018, 06:45 pm
I think I can put all the parts together including some Platinum by-pass caps for the tweeter circuit and still keep the whole kit under $3,900.

Jay is working on the flat pack cost right now.

So drop $1,600 for a total of $2,300 if you already have dual H-Frames and amps?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Oct 2018, 07:00 pm
So drop $1,600 for a total of $2,300 if you already have dual H-Frames and amps?

Yes.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 16 Oct 2018, 07:32 pm
Danny,
Do you have a picture of the final revision? Any measurements?
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Oct 2018, 07:37 pm
Great!!   Price and options?  Full speaker and monitor version

Gonna need to be patient for a bit longer Mike.  I'm  not  going to set any prices until  all parts are programmed,  full sheets laid out, and   costs determined. 

On a good note,  we  plan to get  going on  these    basically right away

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Oct 2018, 07:56 pm
Danny,
Do you have a picture of the final revision? Any measurements?
Steve
[/
quote]


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185570)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185571)


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Oct 2018, 07:58 pm
Gonna need to be patient for a bit longer Mike.  I'm  not  going to set any prices until  all parts are programmed,  full sheets laid out, and   costs determined. 

On a good note,  we  plan to get  going on  these    basically right away

jay

Jay,

No problem. Can you tell me what the final dimensions are for the monitor? I’m curious if they will fit nicely (no overhang) on my current H-Frame cabinets or if I need to build  new ones.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Oct 2018, 08:17 pm
Mike
they'll be   15.5"  wide  once the wings  are in place,  they won't be  nearlly  as deep as your   H-frames... I'll look up the  actual wing depth at the bottom  in  a bit for you.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 16 Oct 2018, 08:33 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 16 Oct 2018, 11:42 pm
 right around  7.5"  deep Mike

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 17 Oct 2018, 12:54 am
right around  7.5"  deep Mike

jay

Really, that's it? The wings are that shallow?  Wow, is that going to be stable as a monitor once the drivers are installed?

Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 Oct 2018, 04:25 am
Could put them on  a  larger base if  people  want  that but then  we are  adding  height.

Nothing  is  set in stone  with this monitor version yet

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 17 Oct 2018, 12:08 pm
Hi Jay
can you paint them also?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm
Hi Jay
can you paint them also?


As in   sending you  a finished  cabinet ?   Yes, we can do that  and we have a  couple  different  levels of finishers we use, costs  vary.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 17 Oct 2018, 12:39 pm
Sweet,i saw what you do with Rich cabinet.let me know when you ready.
where you order jupiter cap from?and what value of the cap you guy replacing with?

thanks

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Oct 2018, 12:44 am
You bet  Lap

Jeff over  at  SonicCraft  carries them  as  does  PartsConnexion

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 18 Oct 2018, 04:28 am
15.5" wide is perfect for my subs.  7.5" is pretty shallow.  I would definitely be afraid of bumping into them.  Maybe you could extend the bottom inch or so of the wings and add a small bridge in between.  Basically something to help anchor the top section to the subs.

And hopefully it doesn't mess up the sound. :scratch:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 18 Oct 2018, 11:09 am
You can just drill a couple of holes and bolt them to the subs. Or screw them down.
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 19 Nov 2018, 04:53 pm
Had a mini GTG at my place over the weekend. Cheeseboy and Soundofrockets (Steve and Sunil) came by for a couple of days to give the Super 7's a listen. And they brought toys!
They arrived Saturday afternoon and after meeting for lunch in Avila Beach, we headed to my place and started playing. Unfortunately, it was less than ideal at the beginning as they are apparently at a critical phase in the construction across the street as they were working on Saturday. This (and more) is about 300 feet from my house:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187043)

Fortunately, they stopped at about 5 PM and we could actually hear the system pretty well instead of fighting over the Excavators, Backhoes, and tractors. We listened to a couple of pieces to get a baseline established, but we were all anxious to try these out, so they got swapped in pretty quickly - forgive the lousy logistics - cable length issues.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187044)

If you look closely in the background are Sunil's Kismet Odyssey Amp's. The power cables are some that Steve brought that are from VooDoo Cable.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187051)


Wow. What a difference!

Nothing but praise for these things. Even Anne said they were clearly superior. I will be facing some tough decisions on what direction to go. Wish I could just magically swap a bunch of good amps in and out of my system and see if there is something even better (in the right price range  :green:), but I think it might be hard to beat these. No contest - Knockout winner!
We also tried Sunils ModWright Oppo 105 w/Bybees vs my ModWright 205. Also an easy winner, but something really weird as the output levels were completely different.  :scratch: :dunno: Does the Rectifier Tube in the ModWright Power Supply make that much difference?

Ah well, time to start saving pennies again.

Thanks Soundofrockets and Cheeseboy! Good to see you guys again. Hope the Super 7's were what you were expecting. That's a tough drive to make just to come listen for a few hours. Great lunch and dinner though, which didn't hurt things at all, and there was some good wine consumed.

See you guys next time!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: soundofrockets on 19 Nov 2018, 10:13 pm
Thanks for hosting us - John and Ann.

And accommodating our idiosyncrasies

I would agree with your assessments of the amp and 105/205 comparisons.  I thought about it a lot on our way back home -  Steve also agreed that something was simply not right with the 105 -  was the difference due to different rectifier tube and newer power box with perhaps better umbilical cord??

I have some more thinking to do regarding which direction to go from here - upgrade LS9s or Super7 or maybe Super 10!!!!!

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Oscillate on 20 Nov 2018, 03:13 am
"or maybe Super 10!!!!!"

Wait a second! ...did I miss something!?
What are 'Super 10'?  :scratch:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 20 Nov 2018, 03:57 am
"or maybe Super 10!!!!!"

Wait a second! ...did I miss something!?
What are 'Super 10'?  :scratch:
He lusts after more Bass. Instead of 5 Neo’s and 2 OB (“Super 7”), why not 3, 4, or more 12” OB per side.

 :guitar: :rock: :bounce:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Nov 2018, 04:03 am
He lusts after more Bass. Instead of 5 Neo’s and 2 OB (“Super 7”), why not 3, 4, or more 12” OB per side.

 :guitar: :rock: :bounce:

Hell yeah!!  Hahaha.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 20 Nov 2018, 03:00 pm
After doing some room and sub modeling, decided on a new location for the servo sub towers in my listening room. 

Avoosl came over for the sub tower movement and driver rewire to test them with all the sub drivers facing forward.   Updated the time delay between the subs and lines to work with the new sub positioning.  Audibly much improved over the original response in the low end from the original positions.

Will be making new room response measurements to see what needs adjustment. 

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182740)

Hal has a six pack of 12" H-Frame OB's. Anybody want to go for 8.   :P
Steve

From the "The Megaliths open baffle line array speakers" thread.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Nov 2018, 03:48 pm
A friend of mine once mounted a bunch of large woofers into the wall. His whole house would shake, his Dad was not a lover of that.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Nov 2018, 06:49 pm
A friend of mine once mounted a bunch of large woofers into the wall. His whole house would shake, his Dad was not a lover of that.

I had a friend that mounted 12 subwoofers in the floor, which used his whole basement as the "enclosure" for the subs - it's called an Infinite Baffle sub.  IMO a stack of OB servo subs sounds faaaarrrrr better. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 2 Dec 2018, 10:09 pm
JIC anyone might be interested, my Super-7s...
 https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141060.180
...are surplus and will be for sale, but they're not quite available right now, as one bass amp hums.  Jeff Glowacki said that's easily fixable--his, too, hummed--so I'll be sending both amps back the week of Dec. 05.
After the hum from the bass amp grated on me long enough, I found an affordable pair of Quad 2905s, having had and loved their predecessors, the ESL989.  I also bought PS Audio BHK300 monoamps, and I'm thrilled with the system's transparency and overall sounds.  I have no shipping coffins so can't ship them, but I will transport them some distance.  Virtually all crossover parts have been replaced, and excellent AQ speakercable is captive.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187516)
(Pls pardon the dust; they've been standing around for most of a year.)

If you're at all interested at $8K plus shipping or simply want more pics, e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Dec 2018, 12:47 am
Yeah, I am not  fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound. The Erse inductors sound much cleaner. And if you want a good foil inductor the Alpha Core or Erse foil inductors are very nice.

I was recommending this kit to someone and re read some of this thread.  Interesting that Jantzen had their copper tested after these remarks and indeed they tested exactly as they say.....99.9% copper.  At the end of the following link you see the results of this test.  By the way, I do not agree with their stance that OFC copper is not better than pitch copper for audio use.  However, their copper does measure what they state.....as to the sound.....well, so far everyone is happy.

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Information-on-copper-wire-and-copper-foil.pdf
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Dec 2018, 01:12 am
JIC anyone might be interested, my Super-7s...
 https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141060.180
...are surplus and will be for sale, but they're not quite available right now, as one bass amp hums.  Jeff Glowacki said that's easily fixable--his, too, hummed--so I'll be sending both amps back the week of Dec. 05.
After the hum from the bass amp grated on me long enough, I found an affordable pair of Quad 2905s, having had and loved their predecessors, the ESL989.  I also bought PS Audio BHK300 monoamps, and I'm thrilled with the system's transparency and overall sounds.  I have no shipping coffins so can't ship them, but I will transport them some distance.  Virtually all crossover parts have been replaced, and excellent AQ speakercable is captive.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187516)
(Pls pardon the dust; they've been standing around for most of a year.)

If you're at all interested at $8K plus shipping or simply want more pics, e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net.

I am sure the Quads are great.....however, you never really heard what the Super 7 can do.  If the picture represents the last incarnation of your xover....then you are not getting at all what can be gotten.  You need a 12 gauge foil coil on the midrange and the other coils must be foil coils as well.....way more info and transparency.  Then all the caps can be upgraded to better ones.....and the speaker wire is just 16 gauge OFC solid core wire.  No way 16 gauge wire can pass great high frequencies.  You need to rewire all the drivers.  The xover will suck hardmounted to the bass module.  Just unscrew it and put a piece or two of cardboard underneath......probably blow you mind.  You can also damp the midrange drivers with small pieces of constrained layer damping material.......I did this to my single Neo 10 and it improved the sound.  Now, even with all the mods in the world and better parts....it still might not be to you liking....but no way would I listen to those wonderful drivers implemented the way you have them.  Every single thing you do affects the sonics.  Unless everything is done all out....you are missing the magic.  Implemented with great xover parts, wire and tweaking these drivers are amazing.  Also, I would have both woofers facing forward, as well.  I bet it would sound better......someone....please try this in your Super 7.

If I were to make this speaker I would mount the 2 or 3 servo woofs on their own open baffle and sit them next to the panels and have the voice coils all aligned.  Yes, I know it would not play as loud.....however, Spatial is selling a $25K speaker with just two of these 12 inch servos on an open baffle and at the show they played them dang loud.  I would make a separate stand for the mids/highs and have the passive xover on another stand so it would not vibrate with anything.....but, what the heck, I am a perfectionist.  I want musicians in the room!

Example of what I describe is here:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=142235.0

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Dec 2018, 01:15 am
I was recommending this kit to someone and re read some of this thread.  Interesting that Jantzen had their copper tested after these remarks and indeed they tested exactly as they say.....99.9% copper.  At the end of the following link you see the results of this test.  By the way, I do not agree with their stance that OFC copper is not better than pitch copper for audio use.  However, their copper does measure what they state.....as to the sound.....well, so far everyone is happy.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142235.0

I have customers that have gotten mixed results from batch to batch. I have copies of some e-mail exchanges with Jantzen that did not instill a lot of confidence to me on this. And it is Copper from China. But there are also customers that are very happy with the results.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 4 Dec 2018, 06:36 am
I am sure the Quads are great.....however, you never really heard what the Super 7 can do.  If the picture represents the last incarnation of your xover....then you are not getting at all what can be gotten.  You need a 12 gauge foil coil on the midrange and the other coils must be foil coils as well.....way more info and transparency.  Then all the caps can be upgraded to better ones.....and the speaker wire is just 16 gauge OFC solid core wire.  No way 16 gauge wire can pass great high frequencies.  You need to rewire all the drivers.  The xover will suck hardmounted to the bass module.  Just unscrew it and put a piece or two of cardboard underneath......probably blow you mind.  You can also damp the midrange drivers with small pieces of constrained layer damping material.......I did this to my single Neo 10 and it improved the sound.  Now, even with all the mods in the world and better parts....it still might not be to you liking....but no way would I listen to those wonderful drivers implemented the way you have them.  Every single thing you do affects the sonics.  Unless everything is done all out....you are missing the magic.  Implemented with great xover parts, wire and tweaking these drivers are amazing.  Also, I would have both woofers facing forward, as well.  I bet it would sound better......someone....please try this in your Super 7.

If I were to make this speaker I would mount the 2 or 3 servo woofs on their own open baffle and sit them next to the panels and have the voice coils all aligned.  Yes, I know it would not play as loud.....however, Spatial is selling a $25K speaker with just two of these 12 inch servos on an open baffle and at the show they played them dang loud.  I would make a separate stand for the mids/highs and have the passive xover on another stand so it would not vibrate with anything.....but, what the heck, I am a perfectionist.  I want musicians in the room!

...


Thx Ric.  The x-over is a work in process; I simply quit on it when the bass-amp hum wore me out.  The caps are SoniCap 'propylenes bypassed with LARGE SoniCap Platinums.

And those musicians came along with the Quad 2905s and PSAudio BKH300s.   :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 4 Dec 2018, 03:46 pm
FWIW, Sonicaps are film caps, not polypropylenes
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Dec 2018, 11:51 pm
From what I remember the Sonicaps are metalized Polypropylene film caps.......so, yes, they are polyprops.  All polyprops are film caps....some metalized, some pure film and foil.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Dec 2018, 12:13 am
I think I might have been confusing polypropolyene with electrolytics.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Dec 2018, 12:59 am
Thx Ric.  The x-over is a work in process; I simply quit on it when the bass-amp hum wore me out.  The caps are SoniCap 'propylenes bypassed with LARGE SoniCap Platinums.

And those musicians came along with the Quad 2905s and PSAudio BKH300s.   :D

I know what you mean re: noise.  For me it wasn't the sub amps, it was the darn 97db efficient mid/tweet.  ANY bit of noise in my upstream equipment was ruthlessly exposed.  Plagued me till I did 2 things.  First, got a PS Audio P10 and plugged everything into it.  2nd, figured out that I simply had too much gain between my preamp and my amp.  Kept my high gain preamp, but bought a low gain main amp and ah, silence!!! 

If you do get the sub hum tamed, I highly recommend trying some Jupiter copper caps in the bypass positions on your crossovers.  I went 100% Jupiters in my crossover, but IMO it wasn't worth the $$.  You can get 90% there with just putting them in the bypass position. 

Over time, noise can drive you bonkers. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: danvprod on 5 Dec 2018, 01:07 am
I had the same problem with my Super Vs re: Noise. Fixed it with a P.I. Audio Buss, TWL power cables, rewiring my mains outlet, removing the 300B amps I had in my system and replacing them with a Neurochrome (Mod-86) amp and being very careful about wire routing. My A370 amps still hum, but its transformer hum (not coming through the speakers). I can hear it *just barely* from my PLP, but as soon as the music starts, it gets masked.

I've worked hard to make my room as quiet as possible this past year, which is a double-edged sword. I had an older MacPro tower in there, which was the primary noise source. That got replaced with a silent mac mini. All of my spinning drives were replaced with SSDs as well. I've done a lot with acoustic treatment both outside my room (I'm in a finished attack and was able to wrap my space in Prodex and further insulate the walls and ceiling. So all this is well and good, but you start exposing other noise sources as you get to that last 5% or so.

After all that work was done, the next loudest noise source was actually my NEC monitor connected to my Mac Mini. That was replaced with a much quieter ViewSonic monitor early this year. Now what's left is the slight hiss that comes through the P-Audio co-axial drivers and the transformer hum from A370 amps. I haven't done a background noise measurement in a few months, but I should repeat that. I've experimented with isolation transformers between the A370s and the output of my PS Audio DAC. They seem to help with the overtones of mains noise that are coming through the 12" subs -- 60/120/180/240 Hz.

But you can end up driving yourself crazy trying to chase all this stuff done, and as I said, as soon as the music starts playing, it is all masked. But that is much of the fun of this hobby, isn't it? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Dec 2018, 01:10 am
I had the same problem with my Super Vs re: Noise. Fixed it with a P.I. Audio Buss, TWL power cables, rewiring my mains outlet, removing the 300B amps I had in my system and replacing them with Neurochrome amp and being very careful about wire routing. My A370 amps still hum, but its transformer hum not coming through the speakers. I can hear it *just barely* from my PLP, but as soon as the music starts, it gets masked.

Nice.  For me I had to do a P10 because I found my voltage at the wall was consistently 125 to 126 steady state, and who knows how much it went up to with microsurges.  I do know that before the P10 my system was chewing through audio tubes at an alarming rate, so I got it because it lets me re-set the voltage output to a nice easy 118 that my tube equipment loves.  Haven't had a tube go bad in the last 6 months, that's pretty much a record for me....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: orientalexpress on 5 Dec 2018, 03:26 pm
Thx Ric.  The x-over is a work in process; I simply quit on it when the bass-amp hum wore me out.  The caps are SoniCap 'propylenes bypassed with LARGE SoniCap Platinums.

And those musicians came along with the Quad 2905s and PSAudio BKH300s.   :D
I have Quad 57 and Quad 63 ,I love them even more GR open baffle bass . :o
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Dec 2018, 04:15 pm
  Haven't had a tube go bad in the last 6 months, that's pretty much a record for me....

Nor have I :P    ( sorry man, couldn't  resist   :lol:  )

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 11 Dec 2018, 05:31 am
Probably I'll soon be returning my S7s to my main system, replacing at least temporarily the Quads.  The bass amps are at Sonic Craft being recapped.  Until they return, I'll be using my 15" Rythmik SWs that are driven by the stereo signals as woofers.  My goal is to listen to the MR and treble to see how relatively good it is.

My problem is that I have two fine speaker systems--Quad 2905s and Serenity S7s--and two pairs of monoamps--BHK300s and Atma-Sphere M-60s--and I don't yet know which pairs to keep and which to sell.

We'll see.   :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 16 Jan 2019, 07:10 pm
Probably I'll soon be returning my S7s to my main system, replacing at least temporarily the Quads.  The bass amps are at Sonic Craft being recapped.  Until they return, I'll be using my 15" Rythmik SWs that are driven by the stereo signals as woofers.  My goal is to listen to the MR and treble to see how relatively good it is.. My problem is that I have two fine speaker systems--Quad 2905s and Serenity S7s--and two pairs of monoamps--BHK300s and Atma-Sphere M-60s--and I don't yet know which pairs to keep and which to sell.

We'll see.   :)


Minor update--never did run the S7s with the Rythmik SWs; too busy with other stuff.. The Quads are still in my system, now being driven very capably by 140-Watt Atma-Spheres, the MA-1s.. (The PSA BHK300s are for sale.). These are 2007-era III.1s that I found, affordable, on USAudiomart.. Just received some upgrade parts--coupling and PS-bypass caps, connectors, etc.--from Sonic Craft that I'll install over the next week.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189176)

Meanwhile, the S7 bassamps are still at Sonic Craft but should be here in a week.. My plan is to install the S7s in place of the Quads and driven by the MA-1s--at least initially; I still have the EXCELLENT-sounding M-60s--and hear what I hear.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Jan 2019, 09:11 pm
Made some upgrades to my Dennis Had "Inspire" monoblocks.  Rewired them with UPOCC/Teflon signal wire, low mass high purity copper Furutech binding posts and low mass pure copper ETI female RCA input jacks.  The improved clarity and liveliness is really addictive.   It's amazing how the Super 7s just let you hear every single little improvement in your upstream equipment.  Even something as minor as RCA, wire and binding post improvements. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Jan 2019, 05:13 am
NM,  deleted

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Jan 2019, 04:30 pm
Made some upgrades to my Dennis Had "Inspire" monoblocks.  Rewired them with UPOCC/Teflon signal wire, low mass high purity copper Furutech binding posts and low mass pure copper ETI female RCA input jacks.  The improved clarity and liveliness is really addictive.   It's amazing how the Super 7s just let you hear every single little improvement in your upstream equipment.  Even something as minor as RCA, wire and binding post improvements.

I think people under estimate how much difference those things can make. Just upgrading the wiring in a speaker and changing out the binding posts to tube connectors can be very surprising. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jan 2019, 04:52 pm
While I was in there I also bypassed all the power supply caps with the 600v Miflex Copper foil caps.  Man, those things are nice, and waaaaayyyy cheaper than the Jupiter caps.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Jan 2019, 09:10 pm
While I was in there I also bypassed all the power supply caps with the 600v Miflex Copper foil caps.  Man, those things are nice, and waaaaayyyy cheaper than the Jupiter caps.

I find the Miflex KPCU--copperfoil/paper&'propylene/oil--caps to be the best-sounding caps ever heard.  In my two pairs of A-S OTL amps, they're highly resolving, tonally slightly warm, and with a wonderful soundstage...AKA resolving, musical, and seductive.

Couplers in M-60/3.3 are 0.15s in these amps with lower-value load resistors.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189639)

Couplers (0.1s) and frontend-PS-bypass (0.47) in the MA-1.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189640)

Available at Sonic Craft.  http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/miflex-kpcu-c-301_453_455
(No affiliation; just a happy customer.)

I used two 1uF SoniCap Platinums per amp for output-stage bypasses and will be adding a pair of 470/160 Blackgates to each MA-1 as bypasses.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 24 Feb 2019, 09:42 am

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191102)

The Atma-Sphere MA-1s still sound sublime--and I think even more resolving with a few-hundred hours on the Miflex caps--with the '2905s, but the S7 amps are back and I'm itchin' to get the the S-7s running.. Unfortunately I'm in the middle of replacing powercords in the whole system and have a minor mess already...without adding another pair of speakers to the musicroom.. Will start the S-7s with the MA-1s and switch the M-60s in later.. The S-7s are waiting patiently.   :)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191103)
Bassamps are in the Red Line cartons.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Angaria on 24 Feb 2019, 03:23 pm
Very interested to hear your comparison vs the stats - for blackness and clarity I haven't heard a typical cone that can match quads.  You're one of the few who could A/B them with planar magnetics.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 2 Mar 2019, 10:35 pm
Very interested to hear your comparison vs the stats - for blackness and clarity I haven't heard a typical cone that can match quads.  You're one of the few who could A/B them with planar magnetics.

Might get the S-7s running this WE, but, as one can see in the pic, I don't have any 'extra' space in front so will have to move the Quads.  We'll see.   :)
Title: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: jeffreybehr on 5 Mar 2019, 10:39 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191640)
FINALLY got around to walking and sliding the Quads away* and the '7s in place;  everything worked perfectly.

Have them standing on Wagner/DiversiTech 2" pads...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191641)
...with an angle-adjusting screw in the rears.. My normal slouching position in my recliner has my ears at least a foot below the center of the tweeter, so the systems are tilted slightly to point the tweeters downward at my face.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191642)
The slab-steel stands I built (rather amateurly) when the '7s were new; I really didn't like the looks of the 'flying-nun' feet.

With the systems not being connected for about a year, the sounds were a tad rough initially, but within a couple hours, the '7s were sounding good to very good.. They sound a good bit like the Quad '2905s except the '7s have better-defined and more-extended bass.. I left the 140-Watt Atma-Sphere MA-1s in place; today I'll switch in the M-60s.

Will be doing a few things to finish them.. Each x-over will get a couple new inductors and a new, heavy, damped-granite doublefloor, and I'll rewire the drivers with a combination of 18g. Mundorf Silver-Gold and 23g. Neotec UPOCC-silver-in-Teflon..  Am currently using hardwired (to the x-over) AQ GO-4 15g. speakercable; will probably replace that with (probably) custom cable made with the 18g. Mundorf and 23g. Neotec.

I do believe I'll be selling the Quads.   :?

* ...sort of; they're parked behind and to the outsides of the '7s.  Probably they're great reflectors with all that plastic film.
Title: My Super-7s v. my Quad '2905s
Post by: jeffreybehr on 7 Mar 2019, 05:34 am
First, I am surprised these S7s sound as good as they do with VERY little--maybe 30 hours--break-in after being still for a year.. And to think they'll get better over the next few months! The two speakers sound remarkably similar, and they should IMO--they're both high-quality, thin-film-driver, point-source, open-baffle speakers. 

In the treble, the S7s sound to me just like the Quads, that being excellent--transparent, NOT edgy, extended enough for me--simply VERY nice. 

The midrange of the S7s is, I think, a tiny bit less transparent, a teency bit less revealing of the complexities of the music..  This difference is so small that I'm not sure it exists, and if it exists, it may be more from lack of break-in than anything else.
Subequent note.  I believe one reason the MR is as transparent as it is is that there are no hi-pass filter caps in the network--and, after all, there's no capacitor that sounds as good as no capacitor.   :roll:

The bass is where the big differences are.. The S7s are significantly more resolved, extended, and powerful than the Quads.. The Quads are adequately powerful in the upper- and midbass but disappear quickly in the bottom octave.. The S7s' bass quantity varies significantly depending on where one sets the two bass-amp level controls; mine are set so that the woofers' output does not make the lower MR sound thick (IMO, of course).. (Both low-pass filters are set to c. 80Hz.)  The bass is quite resolved and integrated with the MR in my opinion; for instance, one can hear the fuzzy harmonics of massed bass fiddles in an excellent orchestral recording; with the Quads, not so much.. The S7s sound quite natural performing this magic of combining different systems to play the sounds of ONE instrument.. The Quads require a subwoofer for a system to have much bottom-octave energy..

The S7s driven by my 45-Watts-into-4 Atma-Sphere M-60s are somewhat more lively dynamically, I think, compared with the Quads driven by the Atma-Sphere 140-Watt MA-1s.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191725)

All in all, I'm amazed that I gave up all this last year; I must have been REALLY annoyed by the bassamp hum-buzz.. BTW the bassamps are dead quiet after having their main-PS caps replaced.

I'll be replacing a few parts in the crossovers and rewiring the system in the near future, but none of that will change the basic excellence of the Super-7s.. TYVM Danny; they're better than I thought.   :D   :green:   :D   :green:   :D
Title: Re: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: lacro on 7 Mar 2019, 02:11 pm
Have them standing on Wagner/DiversiTech 2" pads...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191641)

A Black marker pen will get rid of the blue. They look a whole lot better in black.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 7 Mar 2019, 04:37 pm
Jeff, your experience exactly mirrors mine.  The OB servo bass is world class and very few speakers can match the super's in the bass.  Then throw in the world class mids/highs and you have an unbeatable combo.  There are other speakers out there that can match the mids/highs of the Super 7s (the quads, the Martin Logan Statements, the Spatial Audio X2, the King Speakers), but none of them have the top-to-bottoms excellence of the 7s.  It's just amazing what Danny's been able to achieve with this design.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 7 Mar 2019, 05:14 pm
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
Title: Re: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: SteveKi on 7 Mar 2019, 05:57 pm
These are the production Super-7's?

Didn't somebody say that on these speakers both Sub woofers faced out?
Steve

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191640)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 7 Mar 2019, 06:06 pm
Nice comparison with the Quads. I guess I am a bit sceptical regarding the Super 7 being as revealing and transparent as electorstats. I would see it more like a Maggy in that regard.

The neo 3 is a great, natural, non fatiguing, tweeter, but for me, not the very last word in detail retrieval. So I would expect the same with the mid drivers. Still very good. 

Steve, if you had an active crossover and the desire, it would be interesting to try the Super 7 woofers with the Quads. I know, that's a bit of work and we just want the music, ha. BTW, how is the image height on the Super 7s?

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 7 Mar 2019, 06:37 pm
Nice comparison with the Quads. I guess I am a bit sceptical regarding the Super 7 being as revealing and transparent as electorstats. I would see it more like a Maggy in that regard.

The neo 3 is a great, natural, non fatiguing, tweeter, but not the last word in detail retrieval. So I would expect the same with the mid drivers.

Steve, if you had an active crossover and the desire, it would be interesting to try the Super 7 woofers with the Quads. I know, that's a bit of work and we just want the music, ha. BTW, how is the image height on the Super 7s?

Rocket Ronny

Have you heard the Neo3 horn loaded and in OB config?  It really amps up that tweeter's performance.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 7 Mar 2019, 09:00 pm
I believe at Captainhemo's place. I thought they were open baffle.

Myself, I prefer the highs on the Super Vs over the Neo 3s. Now others feel the opposite. So it's more of a personal thing I guess. Either choice is good really.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: jeffreybehr on 8 Mar 2019, 12:56 am
These are the production Super-7's?

Didn't somebody say that on these speakers both Sub woofers faced out?
Steve

Don't know what anyone else said, but these bass systems are stock and in original condition.
Title: Re: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Mar 2019, 12:57 am
These are the production Super-7's?

Didn't somebody say that on these speakers both Sub woofers faced out?
Steve

No, the original SA  versions did not, one was forward, one  was  rearward. 
I've got them both facing   forward in the new   ones

jay
Title: Re: THEY're UP and running!
Post by: jeffreybehr on 8 Mar 2019, 01:02 am
A Black marker pen will get rid of the blue. They look a whole lot better in black.

TYVM, lacro; never thought of that.   :)
Title: Re: My Super-7s v. my Quad '2905s
Post by: pk on 8 Mar 2019, 06:37 am
Hi Jeffreybehr,

Thanks a lot for the extended review of the S7s - Your setup looks absolutely amazing!

I have never had a chance to hear any of the B&G Neo drivers, but I am very interested in knowing more about the S7s, so I would very much like to hear: Do they have the same punch as cone drivers in the low mids? I ask because I mostly play rock, and fear missing out on that part.

Thanks a lot!

Best regards
Peter
 

First, I am surprised these S7s sound as good as they do with VERY little--maybe 30 hours--break-in after being still for a year.. And to think they'll get better over the next few months! The two speakers sound remarkably similar, and they should IMO--they're both high-quality, thin-film-driver, point-source, open-baffle speakers. 

In the treble, the S7s sound to me just like the Quads, that being excellent--transparent, NOT edgy, extended enough for me--simply VERY nice. 

The midrange of the S7s is, I think, a tiny bit less transparent, a teency bit less revealing of the complexities of the music..  This difference is so small that I'm not sure it exists, and if it exists, it may be more from lack of break-in than anything else.
Subequent note.  I believe one reason the MR is as transparent as it is is that there are no hi-pass filter caps in the network--and, after all, there's no capacitor that sounds as good as no capacitor.   :roll:

The bass is where the big differences are.. The S7s are significantly more resolved, extended, and powerful than the Quads.. The Quads are adequately powerful in the upper- and midbass but disappear quickly in the bottom octave.. The S7s' bass quantity varies significantly depending on where one sets the two bass-amp level controls; mine are set so that the woofers' output does not make the lower MR sound thick (IMO, of course).. (Both low-pass filters are set to c. 80Hz.)  The bass is quite resolved and integrated with the MR in my opinion; for instance, one can hear the fuzzy harmonics of massed bass fiddles in an excellent orchestral recording; with the Quads, not so much.. The S7s sound quite natural performing this magic of combining different systems to play the sounds of ONE instrument.. The Quads require a subwoofer for a system to have much bottom-octave energy..

The S7s driven by my 45-Watts-into-4 Atma-Sphere M-60s are somewhat more lively dynamically, I think, compared with the Quads driven by the Atma-Sphere 140-Watt MA-1s.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191725)

All in all, I'm amazed that I gave up all this last year; I must have been REALLY annoyed by the bassamp hum-buzz.. BTW the bassamps are dead quiet after having their main-PS caps replaced.

I'll be replacing a few parts in the crossovers and rewiring the system in the near future, but none of that will change the basic excellence of the Super-7s.. TYVM Danny; they're better than I thought.   :D   :green:   :D   :green:   :D

Title: Re: My Super-7s v. my Quad '2905s
Post by: jeffreybehr on 8 Mar 2019, 07:46 am
Hi Jeffreybehr, Thanks a lot for the extended review of the S7s - Your setup looks absolutely amazing! I have never had a chance to hear any of the B&G Neo drivers, but I am very interested in knowing more about the S7s, so I would very much like to hear: Do they have the same punch as cone drivers in the low mids? I ask because I mostly play rock, and fear missing out on that part.

Thanks a lot!

Best regards
Peter

The lower-MR region is carried mostly by the bass systems, and based on the music some friends bring over, I think they would do very well on rock.  Perhaps other owners of S7s can opine on this.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 8 Mar 2019, 01:24 pm
I play mostly rock and R&B and the lower MB sound fantastic on my system, especially since I upgraded my electronics.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 8 Mar 2019, 03:46 pm
One neat trick you can do with the Super 7s.  Since the bass woofers transition to the mid panels around 200hz, ALL of the bass is handled by those super powerful big ass woofers.  So they are outstanding for rock because of this.  Better than any other OB system I've heard, and as-good as even the best sealed box speakers. 

OK, here's the trick.  If you want greater clarity/precision to vocals, turn the crossover point down a little bit.  If you feel "vocals are a bit thin", then turn the crossover point up a little bit and it fills in the lower mids very nicely.  Man I love having flexible, tunable speakers :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 8 Mar 2019, 05:18 pm
Quote
I mostly play rock, and fear missing out on that part.

Why not get a rock speaker like the JBL M2s or 708s.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 8 Mar 2019, 09:22 pm
Why not get a rock speaker like the JBL M2s or 708s.

Rocket Ronny

Or just do what I do - have 2 systems!  My "rock and roll" system is upstairs and I jam out to it with my daughter frequently (Klipsch Heresy IIIs) and my ultra-audiophile system is downstairs, and I usually listen to classical/jazz/movies down there.  That way each system is optimized for the music it plays, no compromises, no tradeoffs. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 8 Mar 2019, 11:52 pm
Why not get a rock speaker like the JBL M2s or 708s.

Rocket Ronny

Because they are not Open Baffle... :wink:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 9 Mar 2019, 04:02 am
Quote
Because they are not Open Baffle... :wink:

Ha, but that's the point. Open Baffle speakers don't make the best rock speakers. They are best musical gateway teleporters, but a box speaker with wave guides or horns make the best rock speakers.

Quote
Or just do what I do - have 2 systems! 

Exactly, or two speaker pairs. Myself, I had my truck stereo be my rock system as it was very direct and impactful.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: ebag4 on 9 Mar 2019, 05:34 am
Ha, but that's the point. Open Baffle speakers don't make the best rock speakers. They are best musical gateway teleporters, but a box speaker with wave guides or horns make the best rock speakers.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. 

The OB servo subs along with the NX Otica MTMs are formidable speakers for any genre I have thrown at them with about 75% of that being classic rock.  They have left me wanting for little.  The V1 was/is an outstanding rock speaker as well, my son is still running those. 

Once you get to this caliber of speaker you are not getting night and day differences, you are really getting into individual preferences.

Best,
Ed

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: pk on 9 Mar 2019, 09:48 am
Hi Jeffreybehr, Mikeeastman, Tyson, Rocket_Ronny, and Ebag4,

Many thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

Best regards
Peter

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 9 Mar 2019, 08:18 pm
OK, silly question time.

The Super 7 Cabinet is almost 16" deep (front to back). I am repositioning EVERYTHING again in attempt to solve a few things (cabling being the primary one) and am measuring the distance from the speaker to the front wall (the one behind the speakers as you look from the listening position towards the speakers).

I'm trying some of the various theories on speaker position in rooms and want to make sure I'm starting in the right place.

Since Bass is the main thing on this, I am guessing that the center position between the front and rear firing woofers is the measurement I want to use.

Is that right?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 10 Mar 2019, 01:45 am
Quote
You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

To clarify. Open baffle speakers such as the Super 7, Electrostats, Super Vs, etc. are the speakers for me. They present a telaport audio experience like no other IF set up right. IE: positioned well into the room - at least 6' but 12' my goal - unless back wall specially treated, with no gear in that space. They add a sense of air and space due to their design that I liken to tubes vrs. solid state.

What they can give up, verses what I would call a rock speaker, like a wave guide or horns with a large woofer, is a sense of direct IMPACT and FORCEFULL character. They better portray the EDGE, or EXCITEMENT, of rock n roll in my opinion. Now the Super Vs offer up tremendous impact and force, of which I am happy with, but not to the same extent of what a large rock speaker would.

Of course, that's just my thoughts, YMMV. 

Rocket - Open Baffle - Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 10 Mar 2019, 07:31 pm
The '7s have always had a tad more treble energy than I and my tonally-way-off ears liked, especially when the tweeters are pointed at my face.. When I had sited them recently, I had adjusted the rake to about 2-1/2 degrees (top closer to my face).. Last nite I decreased that to about 1-1/2 degrees* and the treble decreased a bit, to the about-just-right amount.. More tweaking will be needed, as the air-conditioning tech moved my couch and I think it ended up about an inch not centered.  The speakers' distances are measured to be within about an eighth-inch from my nose, but sitting in the sweetspot, I feel a little uncentered in the room.. We'll see where the furnidents are.   :?

In this pic the speakers' 1-1/2-degree rake is barely visible.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191855)
(Still waiting for those new powercords.)

* Measured, but it's still an approximation.

BTW, I use a Bosch DLR130 laser-based Distance Measurer for these measurements.. Its claimed accuracy is, IIRC, to 1/16", and my shaky measurements, when repeated, are within about an eigth-inch. (I measure with the base of the unit against my chin.). Even its successor, the DLR130K, is discontinued, but one can get them on eBay, which I did for my 2nd and 3rd.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=bosch+dlr130&ul_noapp=true


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 10 Mar 2019, 08:42 pm
I owned the Super Vs for about 2 1/2 years and I thought they were one of the best Rock speakers I have ever heard. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 11 Mar 2019, 04:04 pm
Quote
I owned the Super Vs for about 2 1/2 years and I thought they were one of the best Rock speakers I have ever heard.

I can see that. No doubt they are great. If a person had them, or Super 7s, etc. closer to the wall than I tend to, you would have less of the air and space that I talked about and would be more immediate sounding, if lacking soundstaging comparatively speaking.

Regarding using my truck for more immediate sounding audio. Here is a hint of what was going on. These are my back fill speakers with sub. Can you say "Shake and Bake". That Pioneer sub was great.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191924)

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 16 Mar 2019, 08:27 am
Got the new powercord installed and the room mostly picked up.. Looks not half bad, huh!?!?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192146)

Powercords, 18 and 22 feet long, are a new cable custom designed by Jeff Glowacki of Sonic Craft.. It's composed of six 11g. conductors and can be wired as 8g. times 3 (mine) or c. 6g. times 2, that is, without an earth conductor*..  It's not shielded.. Each conductor is assembled with 6-9s-pure OFHC copper in several different strand sizes, litz insulated; then the bundle is insulated with generic 'teflon'.. It's all wrapped in an attractive black braided cover.. I sent them two pairs of AQ NRG 1000 ends to use; they're made with red copper and are heavily plated with silver.
https://www.audioquest.com/ac-power/ac-power-plugs/nrg-1000-wall-plug

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192139)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192140)

* That's not nearly as weird as it may seem; some of our equipment has only TWO pins in its IEC power inlet.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Mar 2019, 03:43 pm
Got the new powercord installed and the room mostly picked up.. Looks not half bad, huh!?!?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192146)


 :thumb: :thumb:
Bet is sounds  great

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Mar 2019, 04:09 pm
Jeff,
Look a lot neater/cleaner.  Very nice!  BTW, your toe in matches mine exactly.  When the 7s are dialed in, I've never heard another speaker as capable of transporting you to a venue/space as them.  Spooky realism.  Have you done any upgrades to the crossover components on yours?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Mar 2019, 09:30 pm
Jeff, Look a lot neater/cleaner.  Very nice!  BTW, your toe in matches mine exactly.  When the 7s are dialed in, I've never heard another speaker as capable of transporting you to a venue/space as them.  Spooky realism. 

Have you done any upgrades to the crossover components on yours?

TYVM.

Yes; details are in prior posts, but it's a LONG thread, huh!?!?!?

Tweeter: 10uf series cap is 9.9uF of Sonic Craft's Platinum (Teflon-alloy-film/tin-foil) caps.. The shunt 0.39mH inductor is original.
MR: series inductor is a 1.0mH Bridgeport copper-foil.. Shunt 15uF cap is a 13uF SoniCap Gen1 (metallized-'propylene) plus 2 1uF Platinums.
Tuning network: resistor is a 12W. noninductive Mills MRA-12.. 54- (or 56)uF cap is now 54uF of SoniCap Gen1s plus a 0.33uF Platinum.. Inductor is original.

Wiring is original.  I'm likely to replace the MR wiring with 18g. Mundorf Silver/Gold-in-Teflon and the tweeter wiring with 23g. Neotec UP-OCC silver-in-Teflon.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192242)

I have four thick, heavy granite tiles to (hot?)glue the components to.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192245)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192243)
They'll be isolated from the bassbox with Herbies large BabyBooties.

The hardwired speakercable is AQ's GO-4, a 15g., all-best-copper cable with DBS.

I think the crossover rebuild/speaker-rewire will be a summer project; I need to spend more time this spring SELLING things.   :?
Quad '2905s, anyone?  Butler TDB-5150 5-channel, hybrid powamps, anyone?...etc....  :roll:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Mar 2019, 09:36 pm
:thumb: :thumb:
Bet it sounds  great

jay

TYVM.. It's still a project, but I'm getting there...  :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Mar 2019, 10:43 pm
Hate to mention this but,   I'm afraid it never ends    :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Mar 2019, 10:59 pm
Jeff, if you're going to look at upgrading caps, I'd recommend checking out the Miflex Copper caps from Jeff at Sonic Craft.  They are just as good as the Jupiter Copper/Paper caps for a lot less money. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Mar 2019, 11:12 pm
Jeff, if you're going to look at upgrading caps, I'd recommend checking out the Miflex Copper caps from Jeff at Sonic Craft.  They are just as good as the Jupiter Copper/Paper caps for a lot less money.

I agree on the KCPU's 5-star quality; I use them as coupling and frontend-hi-Voltage-supply-bypass caps in both pairs of Atma-Spheres I have.. In fact, the trios installed in the MA-1s are the FIRST cap upgrade I could CLEARLY hear the results of upon power-up..  The 'problem' with these 600VDC caps is their relatively large size--they're larger, for instance than the Teflon-film SoniCap Platinums.. 
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192246)
The upper is a 0.47/600, while the two smaller ones--notice I didn't use 'small'--are 0.1s.

I might use some as bypasses in the MR filters.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 3 Apr 2019, 04:34 am
FINALLY, after more than five years of ownership, I'm getting around to finishing the crossovers.. A couple years ago I found some high-mass granite tiles that I had narrowed to which I added some Dynamat damping material; the x-over parts will lie upon that.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192836)

I've already improved all-three caps and one coil, but I imagine more will change, such as fitting some Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil caps where appropriate..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192837)

 Will likely be using Mundorf Silver/Gold 18g. for wiring the MR drivers and Neotec 23g. UP-OCC-silver-in-Teflon for the tweeter.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 4 Apr 2019, 10:54 pm
I'm still blinking and panting...just ordered the replacements-for-the-replacement 10uF tweeter-hi-pass and 15uF (10 + 4.7) MR-lo-pass-shunt caps from Sonic Craft, all Miflex copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oils.. The 10s are almost 4" in diameter!!
http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/miflex-kpcu-c-301_453_455

Will be keeping at least temporarily the Bridgeport MR-series coil.. Will be replacing the tweeter-shunt coil with a new 20g. Solen (ordered directly from Solen in Canada) in hopes of decreasing slightly the somewhat-too-much treble energy*.. Will also be removing the 0.33uF SoniCap Platinum bypass cap from the MR-network 54uF cap.

Will be using Neotec 23g. UP-OCC-silver-in-Teflon wire to and from the tweeter and Mundorf 18g. Silver/Gold on the MR drivers.. Each pair of MR drivers will get its own 18g. run to and from the x-over components; the paralleling will occur at the connections to the x-over.

I still prefer the sounds of the S7s to those of the Quad '2905s, so the speakers and my further enjoyment of them are worth the money. 


* Do keep in mind that these are MY damaged ears and my hearingaids and and not YOURS.   :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 4 Apr 2019, 11:04 pm
Jeff, I agree, stock, the 7's are a bit lit up in the treble.  I found that it was really a function of the stock caps more than the drivers.  I think if you have any treble sensitivity at all, you are going to be VERY HAPPY with the copper caps in there.  If the caps and new inductors don't quite get you there, look at the Jantzen Wax Paper Copper Foil inductors as the final piece to get you to utterly natural sound. 

BTW, here's a recent pic of what my upgraded crossovers look like.  I have Jupiter Caps but honestly I think the Miflex coppers might be better.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192589)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 4 Apr 2019, 11:10 pm
I'm still blinking and panting...just ordered the replacements-for-the-replacement 10uF tweeter-hi-pass and 15uF (10 + 4.7) MR-lo-pass-shunt caps from Sonic Craft, all Miflex copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oils.. The 10s are almost 4" in diameter!!
htt


You may need some bigger granite tiles for the new crossover.  8)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 5 Apr 2019, 12:01 am
While it’s really tempting to upgrade parts in my Super-7’s,  I’m in no hurry as they sound crystal clear.  I’ve got around 100 hours or so on them and Tyson was right.  They’re getting better! 

My X-Statiks are ridiculously great for well under $2K.  The Super-7’s easily compete with speakers I’ve heard costing well over $20K!  Danny is the man!  :thumb: 

Oh, and Jay is the man for providing excellent quality cabinets! :green:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 5 Apr 2019, 08:10 am
You may need some bigger granite tiles for the new crossover.  8)

Maybe.   :)   I'll be doing a full-size layout before the caps arrive.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Apr 2019, 12:49 pm
(I measure with the base of the unit against my chin.).
The best way is to setup a mic stand when you measure your in room response and use the laser on the side of the speaker cabinet to the mic on the stand.  This way it's a fixed point. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: THROWBACK on 5 Apr 2019, 01:23 pm
Jeffrey Behr
You said: "I agree on the KCPU's 5-star quality; I use them as coupling and frontend-hi-Voltage-supply-bypass caps in both pairs of Atma-Spheres I have.. In fact, the trios installed in the MA-1s are the FIRST cap upgrade I could CLEARLY hear the results of upon power-up..  The 'problem' with these 600VDC caps is their relatively large size--they're larger, for instance than the Teflon-film SoniCap Platinums.."

I too have a pair of MA-1s (old style).
1. Could you tell me the sonic benefits?
2. Where did you get the KCPUs (cost)
3. Any tricks for putting them in?

Thanks,
Chuck 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Apr 2019, 01:58 pm
Jeffrey Behr
You said: "I agree on the KCPU's 5-star quality; I use them as coupling and frontend-hi-Voltage-supply-bypass caps in both pairs of Atma-Spheres I have.. In fact, the trios installed in the MA-1s are the FIRST cap upgrade I could CLEARLY hear the results of upon power-up..  The 'problem' with these 600VDC caps is their relatively large size--they're larger, for instance than the Teflon-film SoniCap Platinums.."

I too have a pair of MA-1s (old style).
1. Could you tell me the sonic benefits?
2. Where did you get the KCPUs (cost)
3. Any tricks for putting them in?

Thanks,
Chuck 

Miflex KPCU caps are here - http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/miflex-kpcu-c-301_453_455

They work just like any other bypass cap - pull out the old cap and put in the new one with the same value. 

You know how much I love the Jupiter copper caps, the Miflix are even better and for half the price. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Apr 2019, 06:31 pm
I couldn't deal with the cost/space requirements of those monster caps so I've gone with the   Soniccap G1's  bypassed withthe  Miflex coppers.
A while back I did some  direct comparisons of  a 12 ga Gortz Alpha Core foil inductor and a  12 awg Jantzen wax / foil inductor.... all I was doing was swapping the single inductor Nothing else.
 I  swapped them out numerous times with lengthy  listening periods   on  each . They  are so similar that  I could not   say I preferred one over the other.   This inductor was  the  low pass component  (direct signal path)  for  a pair of  M165NQ's.   it was paired witha   sonicap g1 / Jupiter copper bypass cap -> shunt.
for  this reason,   the S7 network here will use the   Gortz Alpha core copper foil  inductors 
Will  likely be wiring in  Neotech 16 awg / teflon UPOCC


It would be  cool one day to be able to have a fully upgraded pair with al lthe  "Botique stuff"  and a  pair similar to what  we're  building  and  do some  full speaker  swaps
jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Apr 2019, 06:55 pm
I couldn't deal with the cost/space requirements of those monster caps so I've gone with the   Soniccap G1's  bypassed withthe  Miflex coppers.
A while back I did some  direct comparisons of  a 12 ga Gortz Alpha Core foil inductor and a  12 awg Jantzen wax / foil inductor.... all I was doing was swapping the single inductor Nothing else.
 I  swapped them out numerous times with lengthy  listening periods   on  each . They  are so similar that  I could not   say I preferred one over the other.   This inductor was  the  low pass component  (direct signal path)  for  a pair of  M165NQ's.   it was paired witha   sonicap g1 / Jupiter copper bypass cap -> shunt.
for  this reason,   the S7 network here will use the   Gortz Alpha core copper foil  inductors 
Will  likely be wiring in  Neotech 16 awg / teflon UPOCC


It would be  cool one day to be able to have a fully upgraded pair with al lthe  "Botique stuff"  and a  pair similar to what  we're  building  and  do some  full speaker  swaps
jay


That's not the Danny way though.  You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Apr 2019, 07:01 pm

That's not the Danny way though.  You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.

What are talking about?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Apr 2019, 07:11 pm
What are talking about?
What are you talking about?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Apr 2019, 07:17 pm
What are you talking about?

You kill me man.

Hey, if you come to LSAF you'll have a good time.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Apr 2019, 07:20 pm

That's not the Danny way though.  You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.

:wt:
Always poking  eh ?
Obviously nothing  constructive to saty so why bother ?

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Apr 2019, 07:27 pm

That's not the Danny way though.  You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.

You lost me here.

Jay was talking about comparing two different brands of foil inductors. If you want to know which one sounds better to you, you would want to keep everything else the same and have the only difference be the inductors.

Are we saying the same thing in two different ways?

Mike


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Apr 2019, 07:34 pm
He is just always a skeptic about anything he can't get his head around. He is probably still trying to figure out that ERS paper we showed him a few years ago.

If he makes it to LSAF then Dave and I will have some fun with him letting him hear some cable swapping and stuff.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: PDR on 5 Apr 2019, 09:30 pm
Yeah.....he a funny guy, always the best.....until the next best.....and then the next best.... :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Apr 2019, 10:20 pm
Yeah.....he a funny guy, always the best.....until the next best.....and then the next best.... :lol:

I think at this point he doesn't even need to listen to the speakers or the amps - just look at the measurements and you'll end up with the best!!  :lol:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 6 Apr 2019, 12:21 am
 :|
Title: Received the new Miflex copperfoil caps; they sure are BIG!
Post by: jeffreybehr on 10 Apr 2019, 06:33 am
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193093)

The pic above includes 10-, 4.7-, 0.68-, 0.33-, and 0.22uF Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil capacitors, all 600VDC rated, and a CD for comparison of sizes.. Weights of the first two are 5 pounds, 15.5 ounces (2.707Kg) and 2 pounds, 14 ounces (1.294Kg).

Each Super-7 crossover will contain two of the 10s, one 4.7, and several other 'normal'-size caps and chokes, all on the 11"wide-by-12"-deep granite tile.  Also received the Mundorf Silver/Gold 18g. wire to use on the MR panels.  Initially I'll use the existing AQ GO-4* speakercable now in use.  Later will make and use double-18g. S/G (for MR) and 23g. Neotec Silver-in-Teflon (for treble) cables to connect to the amps.
More later.   :D

* 15g.-times-two, all-best-copper, DBS-system cable.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 10 Apr 2019, 01:17 pm
 :o
Ok, now I understand why those 10uF caps cost $350.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Apr 2019, 07:32 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193093)

The pic above includes 10-, 4.7-, 0.68-, 0.33-, and 0.22uF Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil capacitors, all 600VDC rated, and a CD for comparison of sizes.. Weights of the first two are 5 pounds, 15.5 ounces (2.707Kg) and 2 pounds, 14 ounces (1.294Kg).

Each Super-7 crossover will contain two of the 10s, one 4.7, and several other 'normal'-size caps and chokes, all on the 11"wide-by-12"-deep granite tile.  Also received the Mundorf Silver/Gold 18g. wire to use on the MR panels.  Initially I'll use the existing AQ GO-4* speakercable now in use.  Later will make and use double-18g. S/G (for MR) and 23g. Neotec Silver-in-Teflon (for treble) cables to connect to the amps.
More later.   :D

* 15g.-times-two, all-best-copper, DBS-system cable.

It will take about 500 hours for those caps to fully burn in.  But once they do, bliss!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 10 Apr 2019, 08:00 pm
Tyson. I have not followed the cap talk. What would you call bliss. Are these caps a significant increase in sound? Thanks

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Apr 2019, 08:15 pm
Tyson. I have not followed the cap talk. What would you call bliss. Are these caps a significant increase in sound? Thanks

Rocket Ronny

They are as good as the Jupiter Copper/Wax/Paper/Foil caps for a lot less money.  Maybe even better than the Jupiters. 

For example the Jupither 10uF cap is $500, the MiFlex is $350. 

Only thing I like better about the Jupiters is they offer 12uF, 13uF and 15uF values while the Miflex top out at 10.  So personally I'd use the Miflex for anything up to 10uF and the Jupiters only for stuff over 10uF. 

BUT, I should also add, that if you don't have the $$ for these ridiculous caps, that using Sonicap Gen 1 for your 10uf and 15uf caps and bypassing them with 0.1uF Jupiter or MiFlex caps will get you 85% of the way there, from an ultimate quality standpoint. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 10 Apr 2019, 09:17 pm
It will take about 500 hours for those caps to fully burn in.  But once they do, bliss!

More like an hour in my experience.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Apr 2019, 09:43 pm
More like an hour in my experience.

Yes, what's remarkable about the Super 7's is how they just get better and better and better as you put better parts in them, or use better upstream equipment with them.  So far, the 7's have never been the bottleneck in my system.  Looking around at what else is out there, I'm guessing they never will be.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 3 May 2019, 06:48 pm
Have had over a dozen fellow audiofools, most from our audio club, to my house over many days the last couple weeks, in small groups. 
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194208)

The sounds of the system was universally praised, with many calling it the best of mine they've ever heard and some the best they've ever heard.

Have installed this week a PS Audio P20 2000VA power regenerator.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194209)

The system sounds even better now.   :D    :D    :D    :D   :D 

Still haven't installed the Miflex KPCU copper-foil caps in the crossovers.   :oops:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: emailtim on 4 May 2019, 06:02 am
....  Still haven't installed the Miflex KPCU copper-foil caps in the crossovers.   :oops:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/08/d3/c708d342fa91c401736910206b921502.jpg)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 6 May 2019, 07:16 pm
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/08/d3/c708d342fa91c401736910206b921502.jpg)

Well, been sort of busy with a bunch of audio-club visitors over four days and then installing and siting a new PS Audio P20 power regenerator.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194315)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 26 May 2019, 03:35 pm
Here is something that Super-7 owners may want to check - tightness of the mounting screws on the Neo-10 and Neo-3 drivers. I found that all of them needed to be tightened to some degree. I did not torque them beyond barely finger tight. In my case it was obvious that the screws were not tight enough – I would have stopped if they were snug when initially checked. The impact on image focus and overall detail and clarity is amazing. I checked the woofer mounting screws also but found most were already snug.

It may be something just applicable to my pair – they were shipped to Wisconsin to the first owner; then to me in North Carolina. I have spent a lot of time working with speaker position so they have been moved around quite a bit.

Anyway just wanted to share this in case you hadn’t thought of checking this – may take your speakers to another level if the screws are not snug.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 26 May 2019, 07:22 pm
Here is something that Super-7 owners may want to check - tightness of the mounting screws on the Neo-10 and Neo-3 drivers. I found that all of them needed to be tightened to some degree. I did not torque them beyond barely finger tight. In my case it was obvious that the screws were not tight enough – I would have stopped if they were snug when initially checked. The impact on image focus and overall detail and clarity is amazing. I checked the woofer mounting screws also but found most were already snug.

It may be something just applicable to my pair – they were shipped to Wisconsin to the first owner; then to me in North Carolina. I have spent a lot of time working with speaker position so they have been moved around quite a bit.

Anyway just wanted to share this in case you hadn’t thought of checking this – may take your speakers to another level if the screws are not snug.

Well, thank you very much Bernardo!  I'll check mine today.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 26 May 2019, 07:26 pm
Here is something that Super-7 owners may want to check - tightness of the mounting screws on the Neo-10 and Neo-3 drivers. I found that all of them needed to be tightened to some degree. I did not torque them beyond barely finger tight. In my case it was obvious that the screws were not tight enough – I would have stopped if they were snug when initially checked. The impact on image focus and overall detail and clarity is amazing. I checked the woofer mounting screws also but found most were already snug.

It may be something just applicable to my pair – they were shipped to Wisconsin to the first owner; then to me in North Carolina. I have spent a lot of time working with speaker position so they have been moved around quite a bit.

Anyway just wanted to share this in case you hadn’t thought of checking this – may take your speakers to another level if the screws are not snug.
Thanks for the reminder!

When I first got mine, I checked all of them and found several were loose, but I haven't re-checked since then. Probably a good idea to look at them again.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 26 May 2019, 10:09 pm
I had the same thing happen ,I thought it was  do to the shipping.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 19 Jun 2019, 12:27 am
Well, thank you very much Bernardo!  I'll check mine today.

I finally checked mine and found the '10s' screws required about one full turn and the '3's maybe a quarter turn.. I turned each screw NOT tight, fearing I'd strip the 'threads' in the MDF panel.

-------------------------------------------------

FWIW, I've decided to keep my 135-Watts-into-4 Atma-Sphere MA-1s and sell the 45-Watts-into-4 M60s*.. The M60s are current versions (3.3s) while the MA-1s are 'only' 3.1s, but I feel the MA-1s are more flexible with that higher power..  And since A-S OTL amps can operate well on fewer output tubes (OTs), in pairs of course, I removed all the Chinese OTs and then (for at least summers in the desert) installed and balanced each amp with only three pairs of Russian Winged-Cs.. Got to use all the stainless-steel damping blocks I've ordered for various amps.   :)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195676)

Am still using Tung-Sol oval-plate 'N7s in the V1 pair and BRIMAR CV-1988/6SN7GTY curved-plates in the other three positions.. The amps again sound glorious with the Super-7s.

BTW, the 3.3 versions of the MA-1** with the MOSFET-based Constant-Current Source adds that no-longer-used-as-a-CCS tube V3 to the pairs of V1s to make three 'N7s in parallel for the first Voltage-gain stage.

* As much as I LOVE the Super-7s, I still fantazize about having a pair of Revel Ultima2 Salon2s.. That fantasy was renewed by my reading Larry Greenhill's rereview of them in the current issue of 'Stereophile'.. Oh well...I suppose if my pairs of Quad 2905s, Atma-Sphere M60s, and Vienna Acoustics Mahlers, and a Butler TDB 5150 poweramp and BPT balanced-power p-con were SOLD, I could afford them.   :)   :(   :|   :(   :) 

** and any other A-S OTL amps with five frontend tubes, I suppose, but I'm not familiar with the MA-2 and -3.
.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 19 Jun 2019, 01:11 am
Now that there's more Super 7 kits being sold/built, I'm surprised we don't have more activity on this thread.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 19 Jun 2019, 01:33 am
Now that there's more Super 7 kits being sold/built, I'm surprised we don't have more activity on this thread.

Some of us are still saving up for the drivers and crossover. I may get my monitors done in time to be a Christmas present to myself.  :eyebrows:

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 19 Jun 2019, 03:39 am
Hopefully  soon Tyson,   have shipped out    a number  of  pairs    and then built one here.  I know some are close to being     reday  to play tunes.
I've  got  some  comments  coming   soon,   trying to get  my  grills done before  I post  final   pics/impressions  etc but   always seem to be working on something  else.. not  complaining,  just    saying  why   I've been delayed.

I  am  enjoying them  though  !!

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 19 Jun 2019, 09:45 pm
I'm slowly building mine out.  I haven't decided if I am going to paint the sides before gluing them up or paint them afterwards.  Right now I am just making sure I don't make any silly mistakes like failing to install the magnets before gluing everything up. lol  Also, I do most of my work outside and the weather in Georgia has not been particularly cooperative over the past 2 weeks or so.

Part of my problem is that I have a pair of the NX-Ottica monitors so I am not in a big rush to get the Super 7s done.  These things sound amazing.

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 19 Jun 2019, 10:09 pm
I'm slowly building mine out.

We demand build pics!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 20 Jun 2019, 03:03 pm
I just had mine painted. Not sure when I will get to assembling them.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195771)

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Jun 2019, 03:18 pm
I just had mine painted. Not sure when I will get to assembling them.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195771)

Beautiful!  Trust me, assembly is a snap.  Just make sure to install your woofers before you put on the NoRez.  And you might want to drill some holes in the top platform to route your hookup wire through, from the bottom of the speaker up to the top platform.  Use short screws for the midpanels, if they are too long they can punch through the back of the baffle which you don't want. 

Other than that, they just sort of snap together, super easy. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 20 Jun 2019, 03:30 pm
I just had mine painted. Not sure when I will get to assembling them.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195771)

Looks great  man   :thumb:

I've been asked this a couple times so  here's a heads up for others assembling these,   use the gaskets behind the Neo10's,.  The recesses were cut  to accomadate them.  You'll need to trim a little rectangle out of each gasket  to fit around the terminals as there is only  room for a thin strip of the gasket to get by them not the   full gasket width.  I just used  a  razor blade to make 2 little  cuts then  bent the piece up and sliced it off .

Also, use the pre-installed gaskets on the front face of the  GR Neo3's.  finally, don't forget   to install the  yarn/wool in the 2 outer  rows on the front of the  Neo3

Like Tyson  says, a small hole in the top of the sub section right near the  rear of the baffle is great for passing c/o wiring up.  I was going to pre-drillthese for everyone but  wasn't sure  everyone would  want to   go that  route so   we omited them.  I actually  placed mine  right in spot where they come up through the c/o board.
for the Neo10 mounting screws .5 to .625"   will be fine.  I actually  threaded  each  of the  Neo10 mounting  screw holes  (think I used  M4 machine screws) so  I was able to get  some nice  allen / hex drive  screws
jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 24 Jun 2019, 11:55 pm
A question for Super-7 owners. I asked Danny for the recommended setting for the A370PEQ Delay/Phase Control for the Super-7s. He does not have it documented but does state it should be the same for all Super-7s. Mine is set at 0, which is where it was when I received them from the first owner.

Anyone have a different setting or have experimented with this feature? If so please describe how you determined the best setting.

Asking because a friend says it can make an improvement when set correctly.

Thanks for any input.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 25 Jun 2019, 12:41 am
A question for Super-7 owners. I asked Danny for the recommended setting for the A370PEQ Delay/Phase Control for the Super-7s. He does not have it documented but does state it should be the same for all Super-7s. Mine is set at 0, which is where it was when I received them from the first owner.

Anyone have a different setting or have experimented with this feature? If so please describe how you determined the best setting.

Asking because a friend says it can make an improvement when set correctly.

Thanks for any input.

I've set mine to zero also, and that's after experimenting with it at both the 90 degree and the 180 degree settings.  Zero is where it sounded and measured best in my setup.

EDIT:  I double checked later and this post is wrong - my phase setting was at 90 degrees, not zero.  Sorry!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jun 2019, 12:55 am
I have mine  at 13 clicks back from  180.   At zero, I get  a  lot of cancelation near the  the cross over  range  and   they sound thin.

I've got to do some  sweeps one of these  days but    have run through this   a  few  times with different  sets of ears and keep coming back  to  that.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 25 Jun 2019, 01:14 am
I also have mine set at zero.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 25 Jun 2019, 02:19 am
I have mine  at 13 clicks back from  180.   At zero, I get  a  lot of cancelation near the  the cross over  range  and   they sound thin.

I've got to do some  sweeps one of these  days but    have run through this   a  few  times with different  sets of ears and keep coming back  to  that.

jay

I'm going to give that a try!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jun 2019, 03:05 am
I'm going to give that a try!

Wouldn't have thought  this  would make a  difference but remember,  with the new  kits  both  SW12's  face forward.  There  are  a few  other  subtle changes   too  inclding a  differnt  wave guide  ( this wouldn't effect  the phase  stting  for the  bottom end)  and slightly deeper set Neo10  (this may  have a very slight  effect  but  I wouldn't think  much).
Be interested to know  what  some of the   folks running  the  new  S7 monitors have  the phase set  at.

jay

jay

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 26 Jun 2019, 02:50 pm
Wouldn't have thought  this  would make a  difference but remember,  with the new  kits  both  SW12's  face forward.  There  are  a few  other  subtle changes   too  inclding a  differnt  wave guide  ( this wouldn't effect  the phase  stting  for the  bottom end)  and slightly deeper set Neo10  (this may  have a very slight  effect  but  I wouldn't think  much).
Be interested to know  what  some of the   folks running  the  new  S7 monitors have  the phase set  at.

jay

Checked my settings last night & I was wrong earlier in this thread.  My phase setting is not set at zero it was set to 90 degrees.  Sorry about that!

"13 clicks from 180 degrees" is actually pretty close to where I had it set at 90 degrees.  It sounds really similar just based on program material.  I'll run some sweeps later today & see how it measures vs 90 degrees. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 26 Jun 2019, 05:38 pm
I’m pretty sure mine are set to 180°.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Vedder323 on 26 Jun 2019, 05:46 pm
Ron here from NRD. Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to measure the phase of the sub, does it need to be measured with other sub playing at the same time? Im going by distant memory here but I could swear I tried measuring the phase with just one sub and it didnt do jack?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 26 Jun 2019, 05:58 pm
Ron here from NRD. Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to measure the phase of the sub, does it need to be measured with other sub playing at the same time? Im going by distant memory here but I could swear I tried measuring the phase with just one sub and it didnt do jack?

Phase should be set to whatever gets you the smoothest transition between the Neo10s and the subs.  You gotta do it one speaker at a time.  Actually, once you have it dialed in for 1 speaker, the same setting should apply to the other. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 26 Jun 2019, 06:56 pm
yup and if it's not right, you'll lose  spl   in the crossing region due to cancellation between the  Neo 10 ( or whatever  driver  you're crorssing to) and the  sub section.
If  one is playing music on the Super 7's , say some acoustic guitar, and   someone rotates the  phase   setting, it's really easy to hear the body/life disappear

Ideally,  you'll measure the speaker on it's own to determine the -6 db point.  Then, measure the sub on its own, match the   overall response  spl  to the speaker with  the volume control (sub amp)  and  then using the c/o setting, match the -6 db point of the speaker.   Next, measure the speaker  & sub  together and note the result at the  cross over point, it should be raised  to   match the overall response.    If it does not,  adjust   phase   to reduce the cancellation.

fine tune from there

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Vedder323 on 26 Jun 2019, 08:05 pm
Well, my mind just got blown. This entire time I thought the phase relationship was from sub to sub, and now realized its from mains to sub... LOL

I have been doing it wrong the entire time!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 26 Jun 2019, 10:28 pm
Well, my mind just got blown. This entire time I thought the phase relationship was from sub to sub, and now realized its from mains to sub... LOL

I have been doing it wrong the entire time!

Once I learned this this past year, it took my system to another level. It was evident at LSAF where many people said the system was the best they have heard it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 26 Jun 2019, 11:07 pm
This kind of information should be available in a video sticky.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 27 Jun 2019, 04:06 am
Super-7 friends - I have an A370PEQ Delay/Phase Control setting for you to try - 3 clicks to the left of the 90 degree position.

Let me know if that works for you.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Jun 2019, 01:53 pm
I use REW to dial in the phase setting. The setting is different in different rooms and usually for each speaker. There is no one correct position for the phase control.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 27 Jun 2019, 03:03 pm
I use REW to dial in the phase setting. The setting is different in different rooms and usually for each speaker. There is no one correct position for the phase control.

Mike
That's what I thought as well. Distance to boundary walls for the drivers, distance to the primary listening position, as well as the crossover to other drivers are all factors, and that differs to each system (room treatments also factor in which include things besides dedicated acoustic products [GIK, ASC, etc] such as building materials and other factors).

Tell me more about how you use REW to adjust phase..... :green:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Jun 2019, 03:09 pm

Tell me more about how you use REW to adjust phase..... :green:

In a nutshell, see   post above  , #650

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 27 Jun 2019, 03:13 pm
Anyone have any pics or instructions they can give on wiring the Speekon connectors to both the amps and the subs?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Jun 2019, 04:13 pm
That's what I thought as well. Distance to boundary walls for the drivers, distance to the primary listening position, as well as the crossover to other drivers are all factors, and that differs to each system (room treatments also factor in which include things besides dedicated acoustic products [GIK, ASC, etc] such as building materials and other factors).

Tell me more about how you use REW to adjust phase..... :green:

Check out this thread. The phase control issue starts at reply #25

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159295.20

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 27 Jun 2019, 05:36 pm
What do you have the crossover set to?
TIA,
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Jun 2019, 05:44 pm
Steve,

That is something else that will vary depending on the in-room response of the Neo-10s. It is probably going to be somewhere between 150-200Hz. This is another place REW comes in handy. You can visually see where the Neo-10s are 6dB down in your room then you can see what the subs are doing and adjust the crossover accordingly. Don't know about other folks but I can read a graph much more precisely than I can hear the crossover point.

REW is free and it's not hard to learn the basics. The only cost is a decent measurement mic, about $80. Just be sure to get a USB powered mic.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Jun 2019, 07:18 pm
I will add that to cross in the 150 to 200Hz range that the position of the crossover dial might be in the 80 to 100Hz position.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Jun 2019, 07:07 pm
What do you have the crossover set to?
TIA,
Steve

Both mine are set to around 95Hz, but as Danny writes above, the acoustical output goes up much further than that.. I have no high-pass filters on the MR drivers, but still they have VERY little output below 200Hz; if one has the woofer's filter point too low, the system will sound thin and, IMO, unattractive.

I still simply LOVE the sounds of my S7s--they're truly full-range, VERY clean, wonderfully rich and warm without ever sounding thick, and very spacious.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH Danny for creating this speaker system and TYVM Jeff Glowacki of Sonic Craft for recommending it years ago.. I still remember that trip back to Phoenix from Albuquerque in a storm that started out rain but turned into snow in northern AZ..

Have finally specified the new speaker cable to Sonic Craft; will be four conductors of 18g. Mundorf Silver/Gold and two of 23g. Neotec OCC-silver-in-Teflon.. Conductor lengths will be enough to run unbroken wire all the way to drivers, broken only as required by the X-over components.. I believe this will inspire me to finally rebuild the x-overs (again!) using mostly Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil caps..  They're BIG!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196036)

Here's a pic of one of my latest Atma-Sphere MA-1 poweramps; I'm experimenting with using fewer tubes for summer, and they sound just fine with only three pairs of tubes..  Oh ya...I decided to keep these MA-1/3.1s instead of the M60/3.3s.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196031)

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 28 Jun 2019, 07:57 pm
So jeffreybehr and SoCalWJS – do you mind stating what position you have set for the A370PEQ phase control?

Sounds like Mike and Jay are the only ones to have set this control correctly on the Super-7s.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 28 Jun 2019, 09:12 pm
So jeffreybehr and SoCalWJS – do you mind stating what position you have set for the A370PEQ phase control?

Sounds like Mike and Jay are the only ones to have set this control correctly on the Super-7s.
I've been all over the place - 0, 90, 180, & places in between. Not completely thrilled with any of them. I have a problematic ("compromise") setup in my house. Not a dedicated 2 channel room - far more focused on Home Theater - I can get away with that. WAF. She loves TV as much as I do and wants to listen to good sound while watching. So I'll just go out on a limb and say that having a 60" Plasma smack dab in the middle of the speakers (on a rack/equipment stand, albeit low) is a hard obstacle to overcome.

I have a multitude of room treatments and move them around any time I have a new "Theory" on what will help the most. I'll pull out the OmniMic & REW next week and play around again, but it's tough to overcome a major issue I have. Maybe I can take some pictures to try to show what I am trying to deal with (besides the TV) when I'm taking measurements.

What I am happy with is the depth IN FRONT of the speakers, but I have little/no depth behind........yeah, the TV. Thing weighs 100+ pounds, so I can't just lift it off the mount in order to listen.  :banghead:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Jun 2019, 09:16 pm
I've been all over the place - 0, 90, 180, & places in between. Not completely thrilled with any of them. I have a problematic ("compromise") setup in my house. Not a dedicated 2 channel room - far more focused on Home Theater - I can get away with that. WAF. She loves TV as much as I do and wants to listen to good sound while watching. So I'll just go out on a limb and say that having a 60" Plasma smack dab in the middle of the speakers (on a rack/equipment stand, albeit low) is a hard obstacle to overcome.

I have a multitude of room treatments and move them around any time I have a new "Theory" on what will help the most. I'll pull out the OmniMic & REW next week and play around again, but it's tough to overcome a major issue I have. Maybe I can take some pictures to try to show what I am trying to deal with (besides the TV) when I'm taking measurements.

What I am happy with is the depth IN FRONT of the speakers, but I have little/no depth behind........yeah, the TV. Thing weighs 100+ pounds, so I can't just lift it off the mount in order to listen.  :banghead:

I'd recommend getting an Epson 5040 projector, it does UHD and 4k and can mount on the ceiling or a on a shelf on a wall.  Image wise, it's AWESOME to have a 100 inch screen.  Acoustically it's even BETTER because you get rid of the glass on the wall and when you're not using the screen, it rolls up out of the way. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 28 Jun 2019, 09:35 pm
I'd recommend getting an Epson 5040 projector, it does UHD and 4k and can mount on the ceiling or a on a shelf on a wall.  Image wise, it's AWESOME to have a 100 inch screen.  Acoustically it's even BETTER because you get rid of the glass on the wall and when you're not using the screen, it rolls up out of the way.
I actually have an older 1080p projector (and an even older 720p). Also problematic - how to mount? Again, I'll try to get photos at some point. Basically the mount would put it in the middle of "The Great Room" and would be a PITA to mount (certainly stuff that I don't want to do myself). No provisions for power or cable there. Basically, the room was designed for everything to be put in one way. Prewired for speakers. Power to a ceiling mount. Fairly easy for everything. Problem is I put the stereo in and listened to it. It was BAD. Adjusted everything. Not any better. Wife readily agreed to spin everything 90 degrees. MUCH better, but have to overcome a "built-in" shelf/entertainment "alcove" on one side.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Jun 2019, 10:26 pm
So jeffreybehr and SoCalWJS – do you mind stating what position you have set for the A370PEQ phase control?

Sounds like Mike and Jay are the only ones to have set this control correctly on the Super-7s.
Oh really?

Mine are at zero.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 28 Jun 2019, 10:33 pm

Have finally specified the new speaker cable to Sonic Craft; will be four conductors of 18g. Mundorf Silver/Gold and two of 23g. Neotec OCC-silver-in-Teflon.. Conductor lengths will be enough to run unbroken wire all the way to drivers, unbroken only as required by the X-over components.. I believe this will inspire me to finally rebuild the x-overs (again!) using mostly Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil caps..  They're BIG!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196036)

Looking forward to your build thread for the crossover re-build.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 29 Jun 2019, 04:16 am
I actually have an older 1080p projector (and an even older 720p). Also problematic - how to mount? Again, I'll try to get photos at some point. Basically the mount would put it in the middle of "The Great Room" and would be a PITA to mount (certainly stuff that I don't want to do myself). No provisions for power or cable there. Basically, the room was designed for everything to be put in one way. Prewired for speakers. Power to a ceiling mount. Fairly easy for everything. Problem is I put the stereo in and listened to it. It was BAD. Adjusted everything. Not any better. Wife readily agreed to spin everything 90 degrees. MUCH better, but have to overcome a "built-in" shelf/entertainment "alcove" on one side.

You can get one that does HDMI via Wifi so you only need to plug in for power.  I think it's the 5040UB model if I'm not mistaken.  Just put a shelf on the wall at the back of the room (if you can) and put the projector on the shelf.  Doesn't need to be ceiling mounted. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 29 Jun 2019, 04:06 pm
jeffreybehr-
Your response suggests that you have your Delay/Phase control set correctly – how did you determine the 0 setting is best?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 29 Jun 2019, 10:26 pm
jeffreybehr-
Your response suggests that you have your Delay/Phase control set correctly – how did you determine the 0 setting is best?

I use a phonic PAA2 Personal Audio Assistant which is, among other things, a third-octave real-time analyzer..
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/phonic-paa2

I determined that when driven with broad-band pinknoise, the overall output in the perhaps-three octaves of upper-bass/lower-MR was lower in energy at ANY phase setting other than Zero.. This analyzer also allows me to set the woofer LP-filter point to the right frequency and the woofer level to the right point.. I wouldn't be without it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 29 Jun 2019, 11:41 pm
You can get one that does HDMI via Wifi so you only need to plug in for power.  I think it's the 5040UB model if I'm not mistaken.  Just put a shelf on the wall at the back of the room (if you can) and put the projector on the shelf.  Doesn't need to be ceiling mounted.
Mmmmmmm.....no can do. The "rear wall" is 35+ feet from the location the screen would likely be, and is the kitchen which is a wall of cupboards - no shelves.

(also part of my acoustical issues - the volume of space I am trying to fill is enormous - not all of it is listening area. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and 10 feet from the primary listening position, but I have a 20' x 30' space behind [with 10' ceilings])


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196070)

**forgive the image quality - had to improvise**

In the image above, the space I use is described as the "Great Room". You can see that there is a "Media Niche" along the left wall. The original plan was to put all the equipment in that space with speakers to either side. It sounded like cr@p! I got to rotate everything 90 degrees and the speakers and TV are along the wall at the top of the image. The "Great Room" is about 15 1/2 feet across (plus the "Media Niche" - almost 2 feet deep), but the open space behind my chair is very large. Many problems, but ones that I can deal with better, just does mot lend itself to a projector.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 30 Jun 2019, 05:09 am
Mmmmmmm.....no can do. The "rear wall" is 35+ feet from the location the screen would likely be, and is the kitchen which is a wall of cupboards - no shelves.

(also part of my acoustical issues - the volume of space I am trying to fill is enormous - not all of it is listening area. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and 10 feet from the primary listening position, but I have a 20' x 30' space behind [with 10' ceilings])

**forgive the image quality - had to improvise**

In the image above, the space I use is described as the "Great Room". You can see that there is a "Media Niche" along the left wall. The original plan was to put all the equipment in that space with speakers to either side. It sounded like cr@p! I got to rotate everything 90 degrees and the speakers and TV are along the wall at the top of the image. The "Great Room" is about 15 1/2 feet across (plus the "Media Niche" - almost 2 feet deep), but the open space behind my chair is very large. Many problems, but ones that I can deal with better, just does mot lend itself to a projector.

Tough room.  If it were me I'd put the projector on the ceiling, even if i had to pay someone to do it.  Getting rid of the TV would be a bigger upgrade, acoustically, than a new DAC or Power amp or very nice cable would be.  Of course the WAF on that might be very low, although that's something I personally no longer have to worry about (#silverlinigs).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: soundofrockets on 30 Jun 2019, 07:13 am
The exact suggestion by me to him - but keep the wife as well!!!

Ceiling mounted projector in its own enclosure that retracts into the attic when not in use.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: RoadTripper on 30 Jun 2019, 10:50 am
Short throw projector?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 30 Jun 2019, 05:50 pm
Short throw projector?
I've seen the "Super Short throw" ones and I'm keeping an eye on them. Very specific placement requirements though.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 30 Jun 2019, 06:34 pm
Quote
Tough room.

I would want to try putting the speakers on the south end of the great room where the two chairs are.

Rocket Ronny
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 30 Jun 2019, 11:45 pm
Come on guys--SIX consecutive off-topic posts.  PLEASE go talk in a projector forum.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jn316 on 1 Jul 2019, 12:04 am
Come on guys--SIX consecutive off-topic posts.  PLEASE go talk in a projector forum.

How about this deal: They quit talking about his room on this thread if you quit using large, bold font. Deal?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 1 Jul 2019, 12:58 am
Come on guys--SIX consecutive off-topic posts.  PLEASE go talk in a projector forum.
OK - but I thought I was trying to figure out the way to get the best possible sound out of my Super 7's in my room in the Super 7 Thread, dealing with the circumstances that I have.

Sorry.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 1 Jul 2019, 04:57 am
Mellow out  guys,  it's all good.    Just  like the   fonts  don't matter niether do the   posts... it'll  go back  to the  s7s  as  soon  as  someone has  something  to post  about  them,   not  a  big  deal

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jul 2019, 09:29 pm
Bringing things back on topic.  In my quest to remove ALL non-copper parts from the signal path and replace them with better quality copper parts, I've gotten one of the last major pieces removed and replaced - the RESISTORS in the crossover. 

Buh-bye Mills M-Resist Supreme (a nice resistor, actually) and HELLO Path Audio copper resistor:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196109)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 1 Jul 2019, 09:30 pm
How about this deal: They quit talking about his room on this thread if you quit using large, bold font. Deal?

NO.  What's off-topic about highly readable fonts?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 1 Jul 2019, 10:53 pm
Buh-bye Mills M-Resist Supreme (a nice resistor, actually) and HELLO Path Audio copper resistor:

OK, so you got to tell us if you're hearing any sonic differences after installing these resistors.


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 1 Jul 2019, 11:06 pm
OK, so you got to tell us if you're hearing any sonic differences after installing these resistors.

Of course!  Although I have to say I'm still in awe of the improvements I got a few days ago from simply tightening down my midrange panel screws (and tweeter screws).  Thank you to whoever suggested that initially, it made a SUBSTANTIAL improvement in focus, microdynamics and image precision.  I've actually had to re-adjust my subwoofer settings to match up with the new sound I'm getting from the mid panels.

Anyway, give me a couple days to run a signal through the speakers to run in the new resistor and I'll report back.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 1 Jul 2019, 11:55 pm
NO.  What's off-topic about highly readable fonts?

Sent a quick PM regarding using fonts on the forum, just to clutter the thread as little as possible with truly off-topic content.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 2 Jul 2019, 12:12 am
Tyson-

Thanks for posting about the improvement made by tightening the Neo mounting screws. One or two mentioned tightening them but did not state whether it resulted in the same kind of improvement I got. I did not tighten any screw more than maybe 1/8 of a turn. Wondered if anyone else had the same experience.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 2 Jul 2019, 01:22 am
Tyson-

Thanks for posting about the improvement made by tightening the Neo mounting screws. One or two mentioned tightening them but did not state whether it resulted in the same kind of improvement I got. I did not tighten any screw more than maybe 1/8 of a turn. Wondered if anyone else had the same experience.

Since the tightness of the mounting screws makes so much difference and since MDF doesn’t stand up to repetitive loosening and tightening, would installing threaded inserts for mounting the drivers be appropriate?

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Jul 2019, 04:25 am
Since the tightness of the mounting screws makes so much difference and since MDF doesn’t stand up to repetitive loosening and tightening, would installing threaded inserts for mounting the drivers be appropriate?

Mike

I thought of that, but on my pair of Super 7's I feel like there's just not enough room on the mdf to mount an anchor or any kind of insert, really.  The drivers are just too close together and the MDF is too skinny. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: aldcoll on 2 Jul 2019, 04:53 am
Since the tightness of the mounting screws makes so much difference and since MDF doesn’t stand up to repetitive loosening and tightening, would installing threaded inserts for mounting the drivers be appropriate?

Mike
  You might look into using super glue added to pre drilled then dried holes.   Works well

Alan
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Endo2112 on 2 Jul 2019, 01:40 pm

Also, the new design is made from Medex which is actually denser than MDF by a substantial margin. Tyson, i'm a big fan of the Path's myself and run them in my big purples, extremely neutral in my opinion, I'm sure you'll like them.

On another related note, I was at the Captain's for a listen on Saturday as he's been playing with the settings on his subs, WOW!! what a difference a few careful clicks can make. I don't want to speak for him but in my opinion his tightening up of the lower base region has really enhanced the midrange, which was already excellent, it pays to play!!

Cheers,

Don
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 2 Jul 2019, 01:59 pm
  You might look into using super glue added to pre drilled then dried holes.   Works well

Alan

Do we just put superglue over the holes or try to somehow force it down into the holes (which are really small). 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Peter J on 2 Jul 2019, 02:10 pm
I think to consolidate MDF fibers in threaded screw holes in finished speakers it would be best to lay on back and apply with a toothpick,  a small artist's brush or similar. Don't want to fill hole, but sort of line the interior wall. A little goes a long way.


Medex is MDF, albeit a more highly refined variant. I suspect nearly all MDF and HDF is NAUF (no additional urea-formaldehyde) rated now. That ship sailed some years ago in the US.

http://www.roseburg.com/Product/medex/

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Jul 2019, 03:34 pm
I think to consolidate MDF fibers in threaded screw holes in finished speakers it would be best to lay on back and apply with a toothpick,  a small artist's brush or similar. Don't want to fill hole, but sort of line the interior wall. A little goes a long way.


Medex is MDF, albeit a more highly refined variant. I suspect nearly all MDF and HDF is NAUF (no additional urea-formaldehyde) rated now. That ship sailed some years ago in the US.

http://www.roseburg.com/Product/medex/
How about just applying some glue (superglue? Wood Glue? Gorilla Glue?) to the threads of the screw and allowing it to "Drip" down the threads, then screwing it back in?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Peter J on 2 Jul 2019, 03:49 pm
How about just applying some glue (superglue? Wood Glue? Gorilla Glue?) to the threads of the screw and allowing it to "Drip" down the threads, then screwing it back in?


This would seem to me a workable plan. Wood glue or even Elmer's glue would be my preference, maybe even thin it a bit with water. I'd view this as light duty thread locker, but one really doesn't want to solidly glue screw in place as it would likely bring threads with it should it ever need removal. Then you'd have an even bigger problem.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Jul 2019, 04:00 pm

This would seem to me a workable plan. Wood glue or even Elmer's glue would be my preference, maybe even thin it a bit with water. I'd view this as light duty thread locker, but one really doesn't want to solidly glue screw in place as it would likely bring threads with it should it ever need removal. Then you'd have an even bigger problem.
When I originally tightened down the screws on the S7's after they arrived, I thought about using glue to keep them from loosening again, but that was my concern - if I ever needed to remove/replace a Driver in the future, how much damage would that cause?

Locktite?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 2 Jul 2019, 05:08 pm
I think to consolidate MDF fibers in threaded screw holes in finished speakers it would be best to lay on back and apply with a toothpick,  a small artist's brush or similar. Don't want to fill hole, but sort of line the interior wall. A little goes a long way.


Medex is MDF, albeit a more highly refined variant. I suspect nearly all MDF and HDF is NAUF (no additional urea-formaldehyde) rated now. That ship sailed some years ago in the US.

http://www.roseburg.com/Product/medex/

Yes, Medix is a   more refined form of  MDF.  It  is slightly  more dense than  "standard"  MDF  and it  is  far more  resistant  to  edge chipping/breakage  etc.  It  machines    cleaner (better finish)  and  is moisture  resistant  which  makes it more  dimensionally  stable.

Once  characteristic  I've   put to the test is  it's ability to hold  a thread ( not pull).   All the  mounting holes for Neo's in  my S7's    have been tapped  and  then  we used M4  machine screws (IIRC  they were M4... I'd have to pull one and  grab the calipers).  No  additional   glue  etc   was used and so far,  no issues.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196129)


From  info page:
No added formaldehyde resin system
Especially suitable in interior applications where moisture is a concern, Medex does succeed in the 6 cycle accelerated aging test
Superior physical properties to standard MDF. Truly high performance screwholding and MOR capabilities, among others



When I originally tightened down the screws on the S7's after they arrived, I thought about using glue to keep them from loosening again, but that was my concern - if I ever needed to remove/replace a Driver in the future, how much damage would that cause?

Locktite?

You  can get  some  Loctite's that  don't   harden, they  just  go  "gummy"  to prevent the  fastners  from loossening up.
If you  want to use something   tougher,   I'd  tap the holes,  then   run a thin line of  CA  on the   screw  or drip a bit into the  hole...  run the screw in  quickly  and then remove it and  let the    CA  dry  in the  threads.  doing tis will let it soak into the   wood somewhat  and   toughen it up.   You'll need to work  fairly  quickly... keep the screw moving   so  the CA doesn't  harden with the  screw in place.    A nut driver  with  the proper  bit  works well.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 Jul 2019, 06:04 am
After tightening the screws on the midrange, I had to turn up the bass to rebalance the subjective sound.  Then I realized that was kind of half-assed, so out comes the measuring tools (a cool FFT program) and I spent some time over the last 2 days dialing in my midrange/bass integration.  I'm glad I did it because a few things became obvious that were not obvious before.

First, my right speaker is too damn close to the wall.  Created a suckout in the 150-300 hz range.  So I moved the speaker away from the wall. 

Next, the phase, crossover settings and EQ settings vary a fair bit between my left speaker and my right.  For my left speaker, phase is "13 clicks from 180 degrees", hehe.  And all EQ focused on a 60hz room mode bass hump (which dialed it down nicely).  For my right speaker, phase is set to zero and no EQ is needed.  Crazy. 

Thirdly, my couch was too far back.  I got better measurements about a foot in front of my normal listening spot, so I moved the couch a foot forward to take advantage of this bit of serendipity. 

How does it sound?  I don't know!  I finished the measuring/settings and had to rush off to have a nice steak dinner grilled by my dad for me and Kira (she loves steak), and now she's in bed and I can't listen, haha.  We'll fire it up tomorrow and see how it sounds.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 3 Jul 2019, 10:43 pm
After tightening the screws on the midrange, I had to turn up the bass to rebalance the subjective sound.  Then I realized that was kind of half-assed, so out comes the measuring tools (a cool FFT program) and I spent some time over the last 2 days dialing in my midrange/bass integration.  I'm glad I did it because a few things became obvious that were not obvious before.

First, my right speaker is too damn close to the wall.  Created a suckout in the 150-300 hz range.  So I moved the speaker away from the wall. 

Next, the phase, crossover settings and EQ settings vary a fair bit between my left speaker and my right.  For my left speaker, phase is "13 clicks from 180 degrees", hehe.  And all EQ focused on a 60hz room mode bass hump (which dialed it down nicely).  For my right speaker, phase is set to zero and no EQ is needed.  Crazy. 

I have always used different settings for each of my speakers with h-frames (V1, Super Vs, NX-Ottica monitors).  My right speaker has a corner to its rear left and my left speaker has a door opening directly to its right.  Both are about 3.5 feet off the front wall.  I plan on breaking out Room EQ Wizard for the first time in 4 years once I get my Super 7s done.

I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196175)


The goal is something like jeffreybehr's pair see here --> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60).

I am able to get a duller, close up reflective finish with a bit of effort without fail each time I have practiced on a spare piece of mdf.

 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 3 Jul 2019, 11:04 pm
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.

Looks great so far! Hopefully, you'll be able to make a lot of progress during this extended weekend.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 4 Jul 2019, 03:16 am
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller).  I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color.  The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.


The goal is something like jeffreybehr's pair see here --> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60).

I am able to get a duller, close up reflective finish with a bit of effort without fail each time I have practiced on a spare piece of mdf.

That's gonna look hot.

I am getting a chance to listen to my pair again, after all the changes & wow they are a lot more punchy sounding.  More clear, too. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 4 Jul 2019, 07:10 pm
Looks great so far! Hopefully, you'll be able to make a lot of progress during this extended weekend.

Ha ha, you know me better than that.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 4 Jul 2019, 08:02 pm
Tyson,
Want to try something radical?  Remove the LCR network in front of the midrange.  Danny put in in there to compensate for some peak or dip because of the size of the panels/wings.......however, more parts usually mucks up the sound.  You could measure first and then listen......then remove the network (just detach the chain anywhere along the path) and listen again......then measure again....and let us know what you hear/measure.  A flatter frequency response is nice....but I will take more transparency and slightly off measurements any day over perfect measurements and less transparency.  I have never done this so it would be interesting for all of us.  Certainly would only take a few minutes to do.  I have been using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for years and it only needs a cap and coil on each driver to get super flat response.....no resistors, no network....very transparent.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Jul 2019, 11:02 pm
Ha, ha, ha... Well, that LRC network is there for a reason. Without it an otherwise flat response will have a broad range peaked area that would make the vocal region pretty hot and forward.

The LCR network is all in shunt. So nothing passing through that part of the circuit actually passes through the drivers. So it isn't going to muck up the sound.

And yes, I have already measured them. I know what the LCR circuit does.

And those drivers need a little more than just a cap and a coil on them to work properly in this design.


Tyson,
Want to try something radical?  Remove the LCR network in front of the midrange.  Danny put in in there to compensate for some peak or dip because of the size of the panels/wings.......however, more parts usually mucks up the sound.  You could measure first and then listen......then remove the network (just detach the chain anywhere along the path) and listen again......then measure again....and let us know what you hear/measure.  A flatter frequency response is nice....but I will take more transparency and slightly off measurements any day over perfect measurements and less transparency.  I have never done this so it would be interesting for all of us.  Certainly would only take a few minutes to do.  I have been using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for years and it only needs a cap and coil on each driver to get super flat response.....no resistors, no network....very transparent.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: nrenter on 5 Jul 2019, 12:59 pm
Tyson,

Not to go too far off topic...but what software / hardware do you use for room measurement?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Ric Schultz on 5 Jul 2019, 11:20 pm
Danny,
I am sure you measured the speaker and you are correct about the measurements.  What I would like is for someone else to listen for themselves without the network and report what they hear and measure.  All parts in series or in shunt affect the sound.  Even the resistor type in the shunt network will affect the sound.  I have never heard any part in a shunt network of any kind that was totally transparent.....except maybe very small values (couple hundred picofarad) of copper foil props from Amtrans.  I am not saying that Tyson or anyone else will like what he hears without the network.........but what if he likes it better?  It does not hurt to try and listen and learn.  I am mostly in the less is more camp as I know from over 40 years of listening tests that nothing is transparent and the less parts we can use.......usually results in better sound.  However, not always.  In this case?  Only those who try with open mind will know.  There can also be other ways to tailor the response other than adding a network....you already know this.  For instance, some people listen to computer audio with a player that has EQ built in.  If they use very little of it, it could be way mo betta than a bunch of distorting passive parts.....maybe.  Then there is felting and baffling and on and on.  Maybe adding a thick felt pad between the midranges would tame this.  There are many paths up the mountain.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Jul 2019, 11:56 pm
Rick,

I am pretty sure none of my customers would have to ask themselves if maybe the speakers would sound better if they had a broad 4db lifted area in the mid-range.

And in an LCR network all that passes (path of least resistance) goes back to the amp. So throwing a lot of money at the latest and greatest parts in that part of the network is not likely to yield much difference. So those aren't a "bunch of distorting passive parts" either. Good quality parts were used even there.

And instead of speculating various curiosities maybe you should buy a pair and then learn some things first hand. 

Quote
Maybe adding a thick felt pad between the midranges would tame this.

That has nothing to do with why there is an area of gain in that range.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 6 Jul 2019, 05:34 am
Tyson,

Not to go too far off topic...but what software / hardware do you use for room measurement?

When I'm in "serious" mode, I have a calibrated Earthworks microphone, a professional mic stand, a mic preamp and HOLM Impulse loaded onto my server.  But honestly that stuff is WAY over the top and not needed for this type of mid/bass/phase integration.  I have the expensive stuff from back in the days I was running fully active speakers & needed very precise measurements to build out crossovers. 

Nowadays, for the mids/bass/phase integration I use the FFT portion of the Studio Six Digital app for my iPhone.  They correct for linearity and phase for the phone's mic and the FFT allows cumulative 4 second averages so you can move things around, measure & see the results in real time.  They also have a good RTA, but I like the readout on the FFT better for this stuff.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 6 Jul 2019, 06:05 pm
Does this look like a correct crossover layout for my super sevens?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196292)
Quote
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 6 Jul 2019, 06:48 pm
Having trouble seeing/ following  how you've got the  LCR filter  configured.   
should be    cap/resistor/coil  (in any order)    in series   then one end of the  LCR filter to  +  midrange, other open  end  to   -

jay

edit.    Looks right, I  was mistaken , it  kind of looks like the  resistor of the LCR  is also connected  to the   +, I see it is not so yo u are  good

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Jul 2019, 07:39 pm
The layout looks fine and everything looks to be connected correctly.

However, that Sonicap in the Neo 10 circuit looks like it is connected to the inductor where there is still varnish on the wire. If you are going to connect it there be sure to clean off the varnish so that you have a clean Copper spot to solder the cap to.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 6 Jul 2019, 08:09 pm
 Thanks Danny, I did scrape it off and soldered it on
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 6 Jul 2019, 08:46 pm
Thanks Danny, I did scrape it off and soldered it on

That'll work.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 8 Jul 2019, 03:46 pm
Finished up and in audio room now. I have a bass suckout in my audio room I need to figure out. 12.5' w x 19.5' long x 8' tall. I have bass traps in the corners, diffusers on front and back wall and combo diffusers,absorbers on the side walls. When I was testing them in my 3 car garage they had tremendous bass even with the garage door open they were vibrating my tools hanging on the opposite wall. Moved into the room the bass seems to really be subdued. I just have the speakers setting on the carpet with no spikes, maybe that is part of the problem.
 The mids and highs sound incredible compared to my VMPS/ RMX speakers. My girlfriend who has no knowledge of audio terminology said " Sounds like there is more air in the room if that makes sense"


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196374)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 8 Jul 2019, 04:45 pm
Finished up and in audio room now. I have a bass suckout in my audio room I need to figure out. 12.5' w x 19.5' long x 8' tall. I have bass traps in the corners, diffusers on front and back wall and combo diffusers,absorbers on the side walls. When I was testing them in my 3 car garage they had tremendous bass even with the garage door open they were vibrating my tools hanging on the opposite wall. Moved into the room the bass seems to really be subdued. I just have the speakers setting on the carpet with no spikes, maybe that is part of the problem.
 The mids and highs sound incredible compared to my VMPS/ RMX speakers. My girlfriend who has no knowledge of audio terminology said " Sounds like there is more air in the room if that makes sense"


Awesome room!!!!!

I don't have Super 7's, but I do have dual servo subs and experienced similar issues you're describing in a room size virtually identical to yours. Double and triple check your wiring and settings. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 8 Jul 2019, 05:24 pm
Thanks Early B. What did you end up for a solution? Hopefully not moving to a different room.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 8 Jul 2019, 05:31 pm
Have you tried moving closer to the speakers to see if that makes a difference?

Also, have you run something like REW to see what's going on?

Are your bass traps effective to 40Hz or below and do you have them in the rear corners as well?

Another thought, have you tried less toe in? I find mine to have the best bass when pointed almost straight ahead, just a little bit of toe-in.

Mike




Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 8 Jul 2019, 05:43 pm
Thanks Early B. What did you end up for a solution? Hopefully not moving to a different room.

It was the wiring for me. User error.

It's highly unlikely that your room is the problem. If the drivers are working properly, what else can it be?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 8 Jul 2019, 06:21 pm
I will try a few things tonight. I dont have REW but I have omni-mic. I have 2 traps on the front wall, one on the back corner and one corner is open to a closet. They are GIK tri-traps with diffuser plates. The reason I am thinking its the room is before I had the VMPS/RMX speakers and 2 additional HSU 15" subs and still had little bass.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 8 Jul 2019, 06:48 pm
I will try a few things tonight. I dont have REW but I have omni-mic. I have 2 traps on the front wall, one on the back corner and one corner is open to a closet. They are GIK tri-traps with diffuser plates. The reason I am thinking its the room is before I had the VMPS/RMX speakers and 2 additional HSU 15" subs and still had little bass.

That and the fact you had a lot of bass in the garage.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Jul 2019, 07:12 pm
You could try removing some , or  all, of the traps  and see what happens.
You  could also try  moving the speakers around  to see if makes any diference.  furniture can also    cause issues.... it all  becomes part of the  equation :(


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 15 Jul 2019, 08:26 pm
I posted some final pics of the  finished Super 7's over   here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.msg1751308#msg1751308

This  is the original prototype  pair so  wanted  to keep   them in that  thread  for people interested in   building a  paor  can see the results.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 17 Jul 2019, 02:51 pm
Bringing things back on topic.  In my quest to remove ALL non-copper parts from the signal path and replace them with better quality copper parts, I've gotten one of the last major pieces removed and replaced - the RESISTORS in the crossover. 

Buh-bye Mills M-Resist Supreme (a nice resistor, actually) and HELLO Path Audio copper resistor:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196109)

Tyson,
Can you post a close up of your crossover and list all of your upgrades.
TIA,
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 19 Jul 2019, 04:35 pm
Tyson,
Can you post a close up of your crossover and list all of your upgrades.
TIA,
Steve

Sure thing - here's a recent pic of the now-crazy amount of copper I have in the Super 7s:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196734)

Wiring is all VH Audio UP-OCC foamed teflon hookup wire.  My previous reference wire was the Neotech UP-OCC w/solid teflon.  The VH stuff is decisively better, IME.

Tweeter 10uf cap is Jupiter copper now, midrange 15uf is Jupiter copper now, the inductors are all Jantzen copper film and wax dielectric, the resistor is a copper Path Audio. 

The only non-copper parts are the film caps I used to replace the 56uF Erse cap that was originally in there.  I would love to put copper there to but that's horribly expensive and I'm not sure it would be a huge improvement since it's not directly in the signal path.  Maybe if I win the lottery one day, we'll find out....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 22 Jul 2019, 03:33 pm
I would like to thank Tyson for being the one that convinced me to purchase the super 7 kit. After reading his RMAF reports over the years and saying he didnt  hear anything he could replace his Super 7s with I was a bit skeptical.  Who knows if this will get me off the speaker merry go round but these are by far the best speakers I have owned. It took me a while with an audio buddy to get them set up properly but now they are simply amazing to me. Too be able to hear textured bass is a luxury I didnt have before. Everything Tyson has said about the speakers is true.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: RoadTripper on 22 Jul 2019, 05:24 pm
Any observations about a break-in period? How many hours do you have on them?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 22 Jul 2019, 08:53 pm
I only have about 3 hours on them so I cant say much about break in period. Did you get yours finished?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Jul 2019, 09:02 pm
Any observations about a break-in period? How many hours do you have on them?

That's really  going to depend upon the components used in  your  networks.   Typically,  you'll notice the biggest  changes  during the  first  100 or so  hours.  some caps  are  going to take  signifigantly  longer  to fully  settle in  but  changes will get  more  and more subtle  as  time    adds up.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Jul 2019, 09:52 pm
I would like to thank Tyson for being the one that convinced me to purchase the super 7 kit. After reading his RMAF reports over the years and saying he didnt  hear anything he could replace his Super 7s with I was a bit skeptical.  Who knows if this will get me off the speaker merry go round but these are by far the best speakers I have owned. It took me a while with an audio buddy to get them set up properly but now they are simply amazing to me. Too be able to hear textured bass is a luxury I didnt have before. Everything Tyson has said about the speakers is true.

I'm glad I didn't oversell them, lol!!  But seriously it's hard to grok just how good these speakers are until you have them in your room and you sit there, mouth agape, going through recording after recording and the clarity, beauty, detail and musical engagement is just off the charts. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Wind Chaser on 22 Jul 2019, 09:54 pm
Sure thing - here's a recent pic of the now-crazy amount of copper I have in the Super 7s:


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196734)

Do you have any more pictures? Front and side views in the room would be nice.  :D :D
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: RoadTripper on 22 Jul 2019, 10:59 pm
Mine are done also. I have probably 10 hours on them. So my statement system is complete (for now). They are très bien. I am open for others' plate amp dials. I am using Jay's phase setting of 17 clicks back from 180.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jul 2019, 07:55 pm
Someone earlier inquired about removing the LCR network from the Neo 10's.

I was building out Mike Lee's center channel and while testing it I decided to drop out the LCR network to show what happens.

(http://www.gr-research.com/measurements/With%20and%20without%20notch%20filter%20on%20the%20Neo%2010s.jpg)

Yeah, removing that circuit would hump up the response in the vocal region and make them very forward and in your face. Not recommended.

But with it in there that baby sure is smooth.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Jul 2019, 11:09 pm
Hey Danny, I noticed someone earlier in the thread had replaced their Erse 56uf caps with 2 smaller 27uf caps in parallel.  Will that cause problems?  Cause 27x2 =  54 uf not 56uf.  Should they add an extra 2uf cap in parallel in order to get to the full 56 uf value?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 23 Jul 2019, 11:35 pm
Hey Danny, I noticed someone earlier in the thread had replaced their Erse 56uf caps with 2 smaller 27uf caps in parallel.  Will that cause problems?  Cause 27x2 =  54 uf not 56uf.  Should they add an extra 2uf cap in parallel in order to get to the full 56 uf value?

In a notch filter like that it isn't going to shift things around too much.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 24 Jul 2019, 01:50 am
In a notch filter like that it isn't going to shift things around too much.

What about having 2 of the 27 uF caps and bypassing them with a .47uf cap?  That would get closer to the 56uf value, or is .47 too large for a bypass in this position?

Or, put another way - what's the rule of thumb for bypass caps?  No more than 10% of the main cap value?  Or 5%?  Or 1%?  I know at a certain point you run into phase issues if you make them too big, but I'm not sure that point is.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jul 2019, 01:51 pm
What about having 2 of the 27 uF caps and bypassing them with a .47uf cap?  That would get closer to the 56uf value, or is .47 too large for a bypass in this position?

Or, put another way - what's the rule of thumb for bypass caps?  No more than 10% of the main cap value?  Or 5%?  Or 1%?  I know at a certain point you run into phase issues if you make them too big, but I'm not sure that point is.

I really don't think you'd notice that much between the 56 and a 54 value in that position.

Rule of thumb in by-passing (for me) is that about a .1uF or smaller moves the phase shift that it creates to at or above 20kHz. Even a .22uF value pushes it up pretty high. At some point it may become audible for some people if it starts getting bigger. Even still, you probably couldn't put your finger on the difference you hear without an A/B comparison.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 24 Jul 2019, 04:08 pm
That helps a lot, thanks Danny!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Aug 2019, 03:09 am
Holy crap,,  the  rest of my household is gone  for  a  few days so...  it is  official    S7   "through their paces"  night....    wow.  New  gear   ( portotypes)   but    lots of  fun and  pretty  dam  loud....  will try  and post  some  pics    later  :)

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Aug 2019, 03:28 am
Holy crap,,  the  rest of my household is gone  for  a  few days so...  it is  official    S7   "through their paces"  night....    wow.  New  gear   ( portotypes)   but    lots of  fun and  pretty  dam  loud....  will try  and post  some  pics    later  :)

jay

Yeah man!  Haha, sometimes in audio we talk about tradeoffs, how one speaker gets you 'this', but another speaker get's you 'that', and it's all about what you can live with.

But sometimes, a piece of gear is just flat out better than the other stuff.  So it is with the Super 7s. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Aug 2019, 10:58 pm
They performed well, we through everything at them from  an early  am   listen  to a  a Vivaldi violin  session to a late night  "in room " performance by Black Sabbath  ( LOL) with the Japenese mastered version of Paranoid".at much higher  than  my  normal  listening level  !!!  Ended up being a 12 hour  listening  session so  there  were  lots of genre's stops along  the way.
Mivera  dropped by so we got to spend the afternoon/evening with a prototype of  his upcoming Pure Music  which was  powered with a pair of the new Purifi modules.  Sounded really damn good!!.

Tyson,  I can't  recall where  you are but at  some point, you  need to get up to Danny's or someone closer  who  has  some  NX - Oticas to hear them,  I think you'll be  surprised.  I'd honestly  have a  tough time choosing one over the other,  the  S7's   are  faster and  I'd say a  bit more detailed in the mid's, plus, they've got the  built in subs which  is  really  nice for some  people.  The Otica's  are  a bit   more "rich"  sounding if that makes sense and probably image  slightly better.....  I don't  have them here  any  longer  so can't do  a/b's .  I'd give the edge tothe Otica's on the  lower mid bass/upper  low  bass ....    not by much, the  Neo10's and dual 12's mate  up  really well once you get them dialed in.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Aug 2019, 11:28 pm
They performed well, we through everything at them from  an early  am   listen  to a  a Vivaldi violin  session to a late night  "in room " performance by Black Sabbath  ( LOL) with the Japenese mastered version of Paranoid".at much higher  than  my  normal  listening level  !!!  Ended up being a 12 hour  listening  session so  there  were  lots of genre's stops along  the way.
Mivera  dropped by so we got to spend the afternoon/evening with a prototype of  his upcoming Pure Music  which was  powered with a pair of the new Purifi modules.  Sounded really damn good!!.

Tyson,  I can't  recall where  you are but at  some point, you  need to get up to Danny's or someone closer  who  has  some  NX - Oticas to hear them,  I think you'll be  surprised.  I'd honestly  have a  tough time choosing one over the other,  the  S7's   are  faster and  I'd say a  bit more detailed in the mid's, plus, they've got the  built in subs which  is  really  nice for some  people.  The Otica's  are  a bit   more "rich"  sounding if that makes sense and probably image  slightly better.....  I don't  have them here  any  longer  so can't do  a/b's .  I'd give the edge tothe Otica's on the  lower mid bass/upper  low  bass ....    not by much, the  Neo10's and dual 12's mate  up  really well once you get them dialed in.

jay

I did hear the Mockingbird Audio line arrays, which I think used the same drivers as the NX-Oticas, yes?  Fabulous speakers.  But, I'd probably still pick the Super 7s even over an incredible speaker like that.  Why?  Because the Super 7s do one thing I've never heard any other multi-driver speaker do - have an absolutely seamless mid/tweeter integration.  I've heard a few that were close, but none that matched the perfection of the Super 7s.  It's a subtle thing, but you tend to notice it more and more, over time, in small ways.  For me, it was with the more challenging material like opera, or old Billie Holiday recordings, or anything put out by Neil Young, Tom Waits or Bob Dylan.  The perfection of the integration allowed these artists to go from "irritating" to very listenable. 

As I like to joke with my buddy Jason, if you visit other forums (like, oh, the Bryston forum), you hear people saying things like "with my new gear, my best recordings sound amazing, but it really exposes how poorly recorded the majority of my collection is".  Or some other tripe like that.  Yes, that's the ticket!  Upgrading makes your music less listenable, haha.  Right now, 70% of your collection is listenable, but if you keep on the upgrade path, you might get that down to only 50%!  Or maybe down to 30%, if you are really lucky!  Haha, it's so freaking stupid.

Anyway, the beauty of the Super 7s is that YOU HEAR EVERYTHING, but the integration and speed is such that it's never, ever in an analytical manner.  Always musical.  Always 100% of your music collection sounds better. 

Hey, have you driven them with tubes?  I found that they really opened up and started to sing when I went to tubes, particularly SET and SEP amps.  Even a 45 amp with 1.5 watts will fill up a room with great sound. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Aug 2019, 11:39 pm
I'll answer this one.

Quote
I did hear the Mockingbird Audio line arrays, which I think used the same drivers as the NX-Oticas, yes?

No, everything is different.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Aug 2019, 11:45 pm
I'll answer this one.

No, everything is different.

Interesting.  Well then I really do need to hear the NX-Oticas.  Hmm, maybe a pair is coming to RMAF this year? 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2019, 12:02 am
Tyson,    if it wasn't so  darn  hot  here I'd  do  that ( try the tubes).... have   access to the  K&K  6C33C SET mono's.  Maybe  when it  cools  off  we'll throw them in for a  bit...  won't have to turn  my furnace on   until January    :)



jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Aug 2019, 05:37 am
Tyson,    if it wasn't so  darn  hot  here I'd  do  that ( try the tubes).... have   access to the  K&K  6C33C SET mono's.  Maybe  when it  cools  off  we'll throw them in for a  bit...  won't have to turn  my furnace on   until January    :)
jay

Well those 6C33C tubes are probably the hottest tubes around, short of an 845 or 211.  Trust me, I know - I'm listening to my Almarro A318B SET right now in my upstairs system (driving Klipsch Forte IIIs) & it uses those tubes.  That thing's a furnace. 

On the other hand, my Dennis Had Inspire monoblocks run a lot cooler (single ended pentode).  Hell, even my 2a3/300b Japanese Elekit runs cooler than the damn 6C33C tubes!  You need a more reasonable tube amp, haha!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 13 Aug 2019, 03:02 pm
This is all very interesting.  I should have my Super 7s up and running by this weekend but I won't be able to a/b them with my NX-Ottica monitors because I am reusing their pair of Neo 3s in the the Super 7s.  I have owned the NX-Otticas for 2 1/2 years now so I should be able to give decent comparisons from memory.  I expect I may have a slightly different take than captainhemo since my pair are monitors and I would never characterize them as being rich - only on rich sounding recordings.  The M165 drivers are the difference here.

The Super Mini with M165 drivers powered by a separate plate amp and a pair of servo h-frames might be the best of both worlds between the Super 7s and NX-Otticas.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Aug 2019, 04:40 pm
The Super 7s really benefit from using copper caps, especially vs teflon caps.  Here's why.  Other speakers that use a cone for a midrange benefit from a teflon cap because a telfon cap sounds fast and transparent, and it sort of 'wakes up' a cone driver in a very nice way.  But the Super 7s are already inherently blazing fast sounding.  So a teflon cap is too much of a good thing & tends to make them sound a touch analytical and a touch thin. 

Copper caps on the other hand bring out the colors/beauty/warmth just a touch, so that the Super 7s now become supreme musical instruments.  If you notice, this is why I've slowly, methodically replaced everything in my Super 7 crossovers with copper.  And the Super 7's are so clear, so transparent, that ANY change you make upstream will have a noticeable impact on the sound. 

In the old days, that meant the expensive Jupiter caps.  But nowadays the new Miflex KPCU caps are cheaper and better than the Jupiters for a .1uf bypass cap. 

If you REALLY want to go all out & hear what the Super 7s are truly capable of, then Danny has some nice large copper caps for sale here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164761.0
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2019, 04:47 pm
Tyson
Those  K&K's are push-pull to,  beasts....
Will see how it goes,  have kind of lost intrest in tubes over the   past  couple years

Alfonso, glad  to hear you're almost   at the finish line with  your  S7's.   You  should be extremely happy with them   :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 22 Aug 2019, 02:59 pm
I finally got these wired up.  They are not complete as I still need to finish the grills and install no rez.  For the crossovers I replaced the two smaller inductors with Mundorf foil inductors.  The midrange has a Jantzen Superior-Z bypassed with MiFlex KPCU.  The tweeter has Jantzen Silver-Z again bypassed with MiFlex.

Quick impressions on imaging and soundstage since they are the first things I listen for. More detail and pics to follow later on:

Imaging: I thought the Super 7 would be a step behind the NX-Ottica in this department because of the baffle size but they are not. The Super 7s midrange is extraordinarily clear and I think the clarity allows it to image just as well as the NX-Ottica despite its increased baffle width. 

Soundstaging: It was immediately apparent to me that soundstage depth is better with the Super 7s - probably due to the increased midrange clarity. I'm not talking about depth as in how far back it seems the sound is being generated from, but also layering - I'll post more about this as the crossovers settle in and I spend more time with the speakers.  Height and width will require more listening for me too but I didn't notice anything lacking on immediate comparison with the NX-Ottica.  The NX-Otticas have been amazing for me in this regard - soundstage width from side wall to side wall and height not just floor to ceiling but seeming as if it curves above you over head on a few recordings of mine. 

This is my fourth open baffle speaker designed by Danny.  I built a pair of V2s with 8 inch servo H-Frames about 6 years ago right when Danny first introduced the smaller 8 inch servos.  They replaced a pair of Volent CL2 Monitors.  I was so impressed by them that I built a pair of Super Vs the next year.  Then I built my NX-Ottica monitors almost 3 years ago. 

My audio chain:
J-River Media Center -->Digigram VX222e -->Schitt Yggdrasil (2nd Gen) -->Hegel H360
I can't remember the exact diminesions of my room but the setup is along the long wall and my room is heavily treated with bass traps and absorption panels at all first reflection points including the ceiling.

FYI: Since I mentioned them.  I still have V2 drivers in very good condition free to anyone who wants to pay shipping.   :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 22 Aug 2019, 03:21 pm
@ AKLegal -- Awesome! Looking forward to hearing more of your impressions once those caps break in. Post lots of pics!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Aug 2019, 03:42 pm
Congrats  AKL  .   Looking  forward to seeing  some  pics.
Enjoy  some  music  man   :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Aug 2019, 04:40 pm
AKLegal, part of why the Super 7s have such great depth and layering is that the backwave coming off the Neo drivers is exactly the same as the front wave.  That's not possible with cone speakers because the cone is concave for the front wave and convex for the rear wave.  Seems like a small thing, but when you're at this level, small things matter :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Aug 2019, 05:08 pm
AKLegal, part of why the Super 7s have such great depth and layering is that the backwave coming off the Neo drivers is exactly the same as the front wave.  That's not possible with cone speakers because the cone is concave for the front wave and convex for the rear wave.  Seems like a small thing, but when you're at this level, small things matter :)

Yep, that stuff really matters.

But the NX-Otica and NX-Treme models set the tweeter back in a 1.5" deep waveguide so that the voice coils and tweeter diaphragm are perfectly aligned on both sides. So those models also share that advantage.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Aug 2019, 05:14 pm
Also, with the H360 integrated having 250 watts, you'll never run out of power! 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 22 Aug 2019, 06:25 pm
Got a question --

Since the Neo10 is out of stock, is there any way to design a similar Super 7 using Neo8's and adding Danny's M165NQ drivers to fill in the lower octaves until a servo sub can take over? Just trying to get 99% of the Super 7 sound based on available stock.

May be a long shot, but figured I'd give it a try...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Aug 2019, 06:54 pm
Got a question --

Since the Neo10 is out of stock, is there any way to design a similar Super 7 using Neo8's and adding Danny's M165NQ drivers to fill in the lower octaves until a servo sub can take over? Just trying to get 99% of the Super 7 sound based on available stock.

May be a long shot, but figured I'd give it a try...

No the Neo 8's won't work in that application. They really are just long tweeters. I have some stuff in the works though. I am working on getting some made.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 23 Aug 2019, 02:37 pm
Also, with the H360 integrated having 250 watts, you'll never run out of power!

I had been toying with the going with lower watt class a monoblocks for about 2 years but I haven't been able to convince myself to do it.  Given how satisfied I am with what I am hearing I would want to audition any amp before I bought it.  I had a H200 that I used with the NX-Otticas for about a month before I found a great deal on the H360.  The Hegel amps and Danny's open baffle designs make an amazing combination.  As crazy as this might sound, given the improvement I had heard moving from the H200 to the H360 I'd consider picking up a H590 lol.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 31 Aug 2019, 12:20 am
Small update.  These things are amazing.  I think the only thing they don't do better than the NX-Otica monitors is disappear into the room.  If the NX-Otticas get you 100% of the way there, the Super 7s get you about 95%.  The Super 7s soundstage depth more than make up for this. 

Any type of woodwind instrument - sax, trumpet, harmonica, bagpipes sound like god's voice on these things.

These are the first speakers I have ever owned that have made my headphones sound like crap in comparison.  Seriously, if I want to listen to headphones I make an effort to not listen to the Super 7s immediately before. 

Initially I had issues with drums sounding weak on the Super 7 so its been about a week and a half long process to dial them in.   My subs were tuned to match the NX-Otticas, which are marverlous with drums, so I had my subs crossover a bit lower since I didn't need them to play as high.  The Super 7 subs need to be crossover a little higher I think and its been a little bit of work finding that perfect setting that gives me that drum "pop" without causing other bass issues in my room.

My room has corner bass traps and absorption behind my tv.  The speakers are about 4 feet off the front wall.  My next project will be building some diffusers to put behind the speakers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198020)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198021)


I already had amp boxes so I re-purposed the two in the flat pack to be crossover boxes.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198022)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198023)

Current System.  Top to bottom. Hegel H360; Audio GD Master 9 (headphone amp); Schiit Yggdrasil; Media PC; Schiit Jotunheim.
Headphones - since I mentioned them sounding like crap: Focal Elex; Sennheiser HD650 (modded); Foster TR-X00

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198024)



Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 31 Aug 2019, 12:42 am
Nice man!  Glad you are digging the Super 7s so much, and welcome to the club :thumb:

One thing, the Super 7s are going to be more sensitive to the TV between them because they don't have the rear "wings" on the inside of the speakers.  You might consider getting rid of the TV and getting a projector instead.  It'll help with that 5% extra disappearing act for the speakers.  Think of it as a video upgrade and an acoustic upgrade at the same time :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 31 Aug 2019, 02:41 am
Alfonso, man, those  look     great, really  nice  job man.
I know   it  was a  bit of  wait  getting    everything   finalized  in this  kit but   so happy to see  your  results.    Would love it  you  threw up a couple of your  pics inthe   S7 flat pack thread   so guys can see  what they  can do with  some    hard  work.

Enjoy  your  speakakers    :thumb: :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 31 Aug 2019, 04:14 am
@AKLegal -- love the re-purposed crossover boxes. Perfect size and looks good, too.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 31 Aug 2019, 05:54 pm
You might consider getting rid of the TV and getting a projector instead.  It'll help with that 5% extra disappearing act for the speakers. 

My Panasonic plasma will leave my house only when it dies and no sooner. Lol.  I'll make any other compromises though.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 1 Sep 2019, 08:16 pm
Alfonso, man, those  look     great, really  nice  job man.
I know   it  was a  bit of  wait  getting    everything   finalized  in this  kit but   so happy to see  your  results.    Would love it  you  threw up a couple of your  pics inthe   S7 flat pack thread   so guys can see  what they  can do with  some    hard  work.

Enjoy  your  speakakers    :thumb: :thumb:

jay

Yeah, I'll try to take some better pics.  My camera phone is actually pretty good but taking pictures in my basement is really difficult.

Thanks for the flat pack and all of your help by the way.  Your hard work and planning made it very easy to put together.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 2 Sep 2019, 06:04 pm
AKLegal, one other thing you might try is to move the speakers a bit wider and toe them in just slightly.  I find the best imaging/soundstage is with them fairly wide and toed in so that the plane of the inside panel of the speaker lines up with my eyes/ears.  Seems like a small change, but in my room, it changed the imaging from 'great' to 'cavernous'. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 3 Sep 2019, 02:14 pm
Tyson, you talked me into trying some Miflex caps to replace my Sonicap bypass caps on my X-overs. How long did yours take to burn in? I usually allow  min 200hr .
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 3 Sep 2019, 02:42 pm
AKLegal, one other thing you might try is to move the speakers a bit wider and toe them in just slightly.  I find the best imaging/soundstage is with them fairly wide and toed in so that the plane of the inside panel of the speaker lines up with my eyes/ears.  Seems like a small change, but in my room, it changed the imaging from 'great' to 'cavernous'.

I'm now toying with some new speaker positions.  The Super 7s react to my room differently than any of my previous speakers so I have been surprised by how they have sounded in a few positions that I long ruled out.  The spot they occupy in the pictures are the default spot for any speakers in my room where they are guaranteed to sound very good - I then start tweaking from there. 

My crossovers are still breaking in but Jantzen superior or silver bypassed with MiFlex KPCU is amazing.  One of the reasons I decided to put the x-overs in a box instead of on the back of the speaker was for future upgrade purposes.  I don't think I will be changing anything out though.   
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 3 Sep 2019, 05:39 pm
Tyson, you talked me into trying some Miflex caps to replace my Sonicap bypass caps on my X-overs. How long did yours take to burn in? I usually allow  min 200hr .

200 hours gets you most of the way there, around 80%.  I'd estimate that 100% burn in occurs around 500 hours. 

Especially during the first 200 hours, the caps will alternate between sounding great, then sounding muffled, then sounding bright.  Eventually they will settle down to where they sound incredibly clear, with only a touch of warmth.  They end up being more detailed and less warm than the Jupiter caps.  Both caps are warm, but the Jupiters are definitely the warmer sounding cap. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 3 Sep 2019, 07:49 pm
I don't listen to any changes in my system till they has min 200 hrs. of burn in. As they are bypassing Jupiter caps maybe I'll get the best of both. 
:D

  Thanks Tyson
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 11 Sep 2019, 10:15 pm
I have about 210 hrs on the caps and they sound great. More subtle detail and the separation is more distinct, with each instrument and voice in its very own space. My system was very engaging before and these caps took it up a couple of notches. I still hear a very slight edge on some female voices, but it’s fading fast.

Tyson, thank you for the recommendation, you were right about them.
 The only part of the X-over I’ve not up graded is the notch filter, Tyson have you up graded it? If so with what and what were your results”
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 11 Sep 2019, 11:05 pm
I have about 210 hrs on the caps and they sound great. More subtle detail and the separation is more distinct, with each instrument and voice in its very own space. My system was very engaging before and these caps took it up a couple of notches. I still hear a very slight edge on some female voices, but it’s fading fast.

Tyson, thank you for the recommendation, you were right about them.
 The only part of the X-over I’ve not up graded is the notch filter, Tyson have you up graded it? If so with what and what were your results”

Great!  I'm so happy the new caps worked out for you.  The thing about the Super 7s, they let you hear EVERYTHING, and after a certain point, even small, incremental changes matter.  Like with caps :) 

I have upgraded my notch filter and my resistor both.  The Mills Supreme I replaced with an AudioPath copper resistor.  And the notch filter caps I replaced the 56uf Erse with a pair of 27uf Clarity Caps in parallel, and then bypassed those 2 caps with a MiFlex Copper 0.1uf. 

And it's just like you stated.  Everything is already great, and making these changes just takes it up another few notches. 

I just spent 3 days at RMAF with some of the very best speaker systems in the world.  And a lot of them were very well set up this year (unlike previous years!).  I come home and honestly nothing at the show even matches the maxed out Super 7s, let alone beats them. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 12 Sep 2019, 12:41 am
I have sonicaps with sonicap bypass cap on the filter. Do you think the Clarity caps would be an upgrade? I think I’ll try the MiFlex bypass and AudioPath resistors at the very least. Did you change the coil?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Sep 2019, 03:02 am
I have sonicaps with sonicap bypass cap on the filter. Do you think the Clarity caps would be an upgrade? I think I’ll try the MiFlex bypass and AudioPath resistors at the very least. Did you change the coil?

I find Sonicaps and Clarity Caps relatively similar in quality.  At least till you get to the MR level of Clarity Caps.  I'm using the Clarity Cap ESA in place of the Erse cap.  The ESA is about Sonicap level. 

Coils, I'm a big fan of the Jantzen wax/paper/foil inductors.  Parts Express has them, but when I ordered mine there was a bit of a wait because they weren't in stock and had to be ordered from the manufacturer. 

I've tried other foil inductors in the past (Mundorf), but I didn't find the Mundorf to be much of an improvement over the stock coils.  However, I find the Jantzen wax/paper/foil to be quite a bit better than the stock inductors and the Mundorfs. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 12 Sep 2019, 03:54 am
I’m using the Alpha Core coils and found them to be nice.  Where did you get the AudioPath resistors and what are their values.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Sep 2019, 04:21 am
I’m using the Alpha Core coils and found them to be nice.  Where did you get the AudioPath resistors and what are their values.

Alpha cores are nice too.  In truth, inductors make less of a difference than capacitors.  I just like the Jantzens because they had a different tone than the other inductors I'd tried.  But, I should point out that not everyone agrees with me re: the sound of the Jantzens so that that into account ;)

I got the name of the resistor wrong.  It's Path Audio, not Audio Path.  You need the 8 ohm version, here - https://www.partsconnexion.com/PATH-77847.html
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Sep 2019, 08:17 pm
We've been  using the  Gortz Alpha  Core inductors inmost of our  buuilds.
About  a year or so ago,   i did some back to back comparisons between the   Gortz and a  Jantzen of exactly the same value/gauge.  All I did   was switch the inductor  each  time,  nothing else   so  it was   obviously  the iductor causing any sonic change   if there  were  any.....   I could not  detect  any.

Both inductors had  a couple hundred hours or so onthem before  the   back and forth comparisons.   It was not just once swap either, numerous swaps were made.

I am not  knocking the  Jantzen's in any way,  I'm  just  noting that  I could not   notice  any difference when all that  was subbed out  was the inductor.

Note,  these comparison's were not  done on the  Super 7's but  rather  a pair of the  NX-Otica MTm's


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Sep 2019, 09:46 pm
I also have three or four other customers that I have told me that they made those same A/B comparisons and did not like the Jantzens inductors at all.

I am pretty sure there is a lot of variance in the purity of the Copper from batch to batch. Some are good and some are bad.

The company that recently made the Copper Caps are working on a wax paper based inductor using high quality Copper. I look forward to checking them out.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 12 Sep 2019, 09:48 pm
I also have three or four other customers that I have told me that they made those same A/B comparisons and did not like the Jantzens inductors at all.

I am pretty sure there is a lot of variance in the purity of the Copper from batch to batch. Some are good and some are bad.

The company that recently made the Copper Caps are working on a wax paper based inductor using high quality Copper. I look forward to checking them out.

If it works out, I am very interested in getting some.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Sep 2019, 09:57 pm
If it works out, I am very interested in getting some.

Me too. I am awaiting samples.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 13 Sep 2019, 10:53 pm
I've got about 275 hrs on the Milflex bypass caps and the edge on female voice is gone, now their smooth as silk and everything just keeps sounding better.
I’ve got it and I have it bad, upgrade fever and it’s all Tysons fault. :thumb: Those  Milflex sound so good I have to try more.
 I’m adding Milflex bypass caps and Path Audio resistors to the notch filter and replacing my speaker cable, rewiring my X-over and rewiring my speakers all with Neotech gold/silver wire. I got a good price on the wire in a group buy, I was going to use it in a dac and amp that got canceled.

I hope to get it all made up and burned in by the time my new all in one streamer, dac and amp shows up next month.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Sep 2019, 11:05 pm
I've got about 275 hrs on the Milflex bypass caps and the edge on female voice is gone, now their smooth as silk and everything just keeps sounding better.
I’ve got it and I have it bad, upgrade fever and it’s all Tysons fault. :thumb: Those  Milflex sound so good I have to try more.
 I’m adding Milflex bypass caps and Path Audio resistors to the notch filter and replacing my speaker cable, rewiring my X-over and rewiring my speakers all with Neotech gold/silver wire. I got a good price on the wire in a group buy, I was going to use it in a dac and amp that got canceled.

I hope to get it all made up and burned in by the time my new all in one streamer, dac and amp shows up next month.

All my fault!  Haha, you made me smile, thanks man :D 

IMO, with the stock parts, the Super 7 was already in the top 5% of all speakers, performance wise.  With each improvement you've made, it gets a bit better and better, till you're in some REALLY exalted company by the time you're done. 

ETA - what new all-in-one is coming your way?  Sounds yummy!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Sep 2019, 11:20 pm
Hope you  picked up  lots of that  Silver/gold Neotech, takes  a ton of runs to build a speaker cable  !
If you  end up needing more,  LMK,  don still has a buch he   would likely sell

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 13 Sep 2019, 11:28 pm
I know I'll need 125 meters, I have 100 meters, I think the other 25M is coming from Don,via someone else.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Sep 2019, 03:54 pm
Cool  8)
You'll love the transparancy of that  wire. I use a  cable between  my  DAC and  amp  made of   the same stuff
  Be careful with it,  it can be tricky to work with until it's braided in to lager   cables. It's delicate stuff  right off the spool.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Endo2112 on 14 Sep 2019, 04:27 pm

The wire is great, it has a wonderful tone and i'm sure that you'll love it, as well as the dac/amp, I've been lucky enough to listen to it 4 or 5 times during it's development and you are in for a treat. It sounds so right that I actually have a tough time telling folks how good it really is, i'm hoping to hear the final version within the next couple of weeks but I can say with almost certainty that you will love it with your speakers.

Cheers,

Don
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Sep 2019, 06:01 pm
The wire is great, it has a wonderful tone and i'm sure that you'll love it, as well as the dac/amp, I've been lucky enough to listen to it 4 or 5 times during it's development and you are in for a treat. It sounds so right that I actually have a tough time telling folks how good it really is, i'm hoping to hear the final version within the next couple of weeks but I can say with almost certainty that you will love it with your speakers.

Cheers,

Don

 :o :o  the illusive one speaks !!!   LOL

:beer:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Sep 2019, 09:24 pm
I'm familiar with the wire, I wired my present amp with it. I keep hearing great things about that new compo set up but as good as my system sounds now,  it's not real to me that it can get that much better, but so for his gear has been as good or better than he's claimed, so I'm ready to have my reality broken.  :o
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Sep 2019, 10:18 pm
I'm familiar with the wire, I wired my present amp with it. I keep hearing great things about that new compo set up but as good as my system sounds now,  it's not real to me that it can get that much better, but so for his gear has been as good or better than he's claimed, so I'm ready to have my reality broken.  :o

Well,  I haven't heard the latest  version with all th latest tweaks/upgrades he's   implemented but  the one I  did hear  was  very  god.   I  was impressed   

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 23 Sep 2019, 03:28 pm
It looks like the NEO 10s are almost going to be double the cost of what they were when they are available again. Sure glad I got my speakers earlier. I still think they are the best money I have ever spent on audio.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Nick77 on 23 Sep 2019, 05:40 pm
It looks like the NEO 10s are almost going to be double the cost of what they were when they are available again. Sure glad I got my speakers earlier. I still think they are the best money I have ever spent on audio.
Nice, I was a day late to the party. 😣
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 23 Sep 2019, 06:47 pm
I put a lot of stuff on hold to get mine while the price was still right.  I've waited on too many deals only to have it go away at some point.

Now if I can just find a great amp at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Sep 2019, 06:58 pm
I put a lot of stuff on hold to get mine while the price was still right.  I've waited on too many deals only to have it go away at some point.

Now if I can just find a great amp at a reasonable price.
I’m a big fan of the Dennis Had ‘Inspire’ amps.  Particularly the single ended pentode mate well with the Super 7 and they also give you a ton of tube rolling options. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Nick77 on 23 Sep 2019, 07:05 pm
I put a lot of stuff on hold to get mine while the price was still right.  I've waited on too many deals only to have it go away at some point.

Now if I can just find a great amp at a reasonable price.

Ya I regret not grabbing those drivers when they were $199.  :duh:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Sep 2019, 07:46 pm
So it'll be $400 per Neo 10?  Damn, that's $3200 for just the midrange drivers. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 23 Sep 2019, 08:15 pm
$370 at a couple places
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 23 Sep 2019, 08:30 pm
Still worth it though.  Even at the increased cost, nothing touches the Super 7s, IME.  For example, this past year at RMAF, I listened to every major room that had full range speaker setups.  The best room was the Prana Fidelity fully active setup, but it was $35k.  And it was close to the Super 7s in some regards, but in most areas the Super 7s are clearly better.  Having the Super 7s at home makes going to shows like RMAF kind of no fun, lol.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Nick77 on 23 Sep 2019, 08:40 pm
Still worth it though.  Even at the increased cost, nothing touches the Super 7s, IME.  For example, this past year at RMAF, I listened to every major room that had full range speaker setups.  The best room was the Prana Fidelity fully active setup, but it was $35k.  And it was close to the Super 7s in some regards, but in most areas the Super 7s are clearly better.  Having the Super 7s at home makes going to shows like RMAF kind of no fun, lol.

Thats awesome! For me hearing some nice expensive speaks and coming home to hohum is a bummer. haha

Hoping to do the Mini's soon. Thats ridiculous they have doubled the price on the driver, hopefully Danny comes thru soon.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 23 Sep 2019, 09:16 pm
Even the minis sound fantastic so you can still get that high end sound at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 23 Sep 2019, 10:40 pm
Thats ridiculous they have doubled the price on the driver, hopefully Danny comes thru soon.

Danny -- can you give us a few more details on what you're working on?? Will your pricing for comparable Neo10's be much more reasonable? 

We know this kind of stuff takes time and you're probably reluctant to reveal too much too soon, but even a liberal ballpark estimate on the possibility of working something out would be helpful. A friend wants to build the Super 7's, but he won't wait forever. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Sep 2019, 03:41 pm
Danny -- can you give us a few more details on what you're working on?? Will your pricing for comparable Neo10's be much more reasonable? 

We know this kind of stuff takes time and you're probably reluctant to reveal too much too soon, but even a liberal ballpark estimate on the possibility of working something out would be helpful. A friend wants to build the Super 7's, but he won't wait forever.

Let's just say that I have tested some samples, and they were off the mark a bit. I am having some changes made and having the diaphragm damped more like the original BG version. I am also going to make a change that I had made to our planar tweeters. I am going to have high purity Copper terminals used instead of having them made from Tin (or whatever). 

I await samples.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 25 Sep 2019, 04:52 pm
Let's just say that I have tested some samples, and they were off the mark a bit. I am having some changes made and having the diaphragm damped more like the original BG version. I am also going to make a change that I had made to our planar tweeters. I am going to have high purity Copper terminals used instead of having them made from Tin (or whatever). 

I await samples.

Thanks, Danny. This is very helpful.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 27 Sep 2019, 07:31 pm
I’m about to upgrade all  the wiring in my system and replace my streamer, dac, amp with an all in one. Now I have a low pass on my sub out that is in between my dac and amp that feeds a Iso Max that feeds my subs.

In my new set up this won’t work, so I was going to either eliminate the low pass all togather or use some  Fmod attenuators inline with the subs. Do I need the low pass? If I use the Fmods what frequency should I use and does it matter if they are  plugged into the Iso Max or into the sub amps?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Sep 2019, 07:57 pm
I’m about to upgrade all  the wiring in my system and replace my streamer, dac, amp with an all in one. Now I have a low pass on my sub out that is in between my dac and amp that feeds a Iso Max that feeds my subs.

In my new set up this won’t work, so I was going to either eliminate the low pass all togather or use some  Fmod attenuators inline with the subs. Do I need the low pass? If I use the Fmods what frequency should I use and does it matter if they are  plugged into the Iso Max or into the sub amps?

You don't need a low pass as your sub amps have a variable low pass crossover already built in. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 27 Sep 2019, 08:02 pm
I’m a big fan of the Dennis Had ‘Inspire’ amps.  Particularly the single ended pentode mate well with the Super 7 and they also give you a ton of tube rolling options.

These look really great.  Sadly the whole whole eBay bidding situation pushes them out of my price range.  Maybe if I can sell my current amps.  It never ends.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Sep 2019, 08:06 pm
These look really great.  Sadly the whole whole eBay bidding situation pushes them out of my price range.  Maybe if I can sell my current amps.  It never ends.

This is probably the best single ended pentode version that he makes, and going $1550 delivered (no bidding).  $1550 for a hand built, point to point wired tube amp from someone like Had is a pretty good deal, IMO:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153649693112

On the other hand, the budget is the budget and if it's out of the budget price range, that's just how it goes...

Edit to add:  Part of the reason I like his design so much is that it only requires 2 output pentode tubes.  My prior pentode tube amps all required 4 output tubes.  The nice thing about the Inspire amp is that I can definitely afford some really nice NOS tubes in pairs, but definitely NOT afford those same NOS tubes as matched quads. 

Add to that the fact that you can roll a ton of different pentodes, that makes it close to the bargain of the century, IMO.  For example, tubes I have already rolled in my amp include:  EL84, 6F6, 807, 6BG6-GA, 6CA7, 6K6, 6V6, 6L6, 6L6GC, EL34, KT66, KT77, KT88, 6550, KT150, and a couple others that escape me at the moment.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 27 Sep 2019, 08:42 pm
Thanks Tyson.  :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Sep 2019, 10:20 pm
I’m about to upgrade all  the wiring in my system and replace my streamer, dac, amp with an all in one. Now I have a low pass on my sub out that is in between my dac and amp that feeds a Iso Max that feeds my subs.

In my new set up this won’t work, so I was going to either eliminate the low pass all togather or use some  Fmod attenuators inline with the subs. Do I need the low pass? If I use the Fmods what frequency should I use and does it matter if they are  plugged into the Iso Max or into the sub amps?

Mike
Are you sure that's how it's setup right now ?   I thought you  had  one leg ging unfiltered to the sub amps and  the other  high passed to the main   amp  for the  S7's ?  ( inline cap)
   If I'm correct  and this is how   it's setup, going  without the high pass  inline cap   will cause the  Neo10's to roll off natually instead of  of having  a cap roll them off... you  should be ok.   I'm running  mine like that as  my  ISO Max trans is  high level input so I need the full signal going  to the   main amp.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Sep 2019, 10:33 pm
I also run my super 7s with a full signal going to the panels.  Never had any issues.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 27 Sep 2019, 11:33 pm
Your right Jay, pretty bad when some eles know your system better than you.  :lol:  Thanks



Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 28 Sep 2019, 01:07 am
I also run my super 7s with a full signal going to the panels.  Never had any issues.
Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Sep 2019, 02:06 am
Your right Jay, pretty bad when some eles know your system better than you.  :lol:  Thanks

Hey Mike,   all good man was  just  making sure   you didn't have some  different config  for some reason....

I  think  you'll really  enjoy  what  you've got  coming down the pipe  :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 28 Sep 2019, 02:07 am
Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.

I run mine full signal to the panels from a Hegel H360.  I'd be more concerned with clipping from a low power amp than any danger from a higher powered one.  Youd be super hard pressed to find an amp that would clip while driving the Super 7s though.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Sep 2019, 02:32 am
Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.

well,   nice thing about the  s7's is they are fairly eficient  so not likely to have to push them overly  hard.    In the case of a very large room  or someone who likes it   extremely  loud, I'd be more concerned with a low powered amp as opposed to a high powered amp.
Like AKL states above, With  a low powered amp you'll likely encounter clipping  earlier and that   is  where the isues  willl  probably  start....
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 28 Sep 2019, 02:37 am
I run mine full signal to the panels from a Hegel H360.  I'd be more concerned with clipping from a low power amp than any danger from a higher powered one.  Youd be super hard pressed to find an amp that would clip while driving the Super 7s though.

That's true!  At 97db efficiency and a flat 8 ohm impedance, they are super easy to drive.  Even listening at an average level of 85db (quite loud), that's only using .07 watts.  And 2 watts will get you up to 100db. 

I use mine in my HT, I've run them at some really insane levels with certain movies, never even a hiccup. 

With my Type 45 amp, it's only 2 watts, I can get close to reference levels for home theater, but at the very, very loudest passages, the amp runs out of gas and stops getting louder.  However, with my 10 watt Inspire monoblock amps, I don't run out of gas. 

If I had a bigger space than my dedicated basement area, I might have to use a 30 watt amp for that level of insanity. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 30 Sep 2019, 06:40 pm
I have tried three different tube amps and a couple solid state amps and my super 7s sound best to me with my Rowland 525 class D monos. I had some friends over this weekend and after each beer the
volume level kept creeping up. At some point when Morphine was playing I checked the DBs with my old trusty Radio shack meter and it was 103 sustained and 109 peaks. They didnt sound strained at all and I know that is not good for the speakers or ears but Damn did they sound good!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Oct 2019, 06:23 pm
I'm starting upgrades to my system and one upgrade is to replace my Mills resistors in my x-over with a PathAudio ones. I just unpacked the PathAudio ones and see there is an extra wire coming out of it, what does it connect to?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 14 Oct 2019, 06:40 pm
I'm starting upgrades to my system and one upgrade is to replace my Mills resistors in my x-over with a PathAudio ones. I just unpacked the PathAudio ones and see there is an extra wire coming out of it, what does it connect to?

Ground.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Oct 2019, 07:03 pm
Helpfull as always, thanks.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Oct 2019, 07:04 pm
What do I ground it to? or do I need to connect it?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: pwag on 14 Oct 2019, 07:13 pm
http://www.pathaudio.eu/

The use of copper tubing allows to drain interferences and this is why we used the third long leadout. It's connected only to the casing, having no contact with the signal transmitted by the resistor. The third leadout should be joined to the ground or "-" speaker input.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Oct 2019, 07:28 pm
Here a pic of my x-over lets start there.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199619)

So the 2 short wires connect same as the resistor now, the long wire goes to?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 14 Oct 2019, 07:32 pm
The 2 short wires on the Path audio are your leads, just like on any other resistor.  The longer, more flexible wire is a shield drain.  You can connect it if you want to, but you don't have to.  Supposedly it's a little more quiet, if you connect it.  I connected mine to the negative wiring in the crossover. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 14 Oct 2019, 07:36 pm
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 15 Oct 2019, 04:58 pm
Mike, I see you have Jupiters bypassed with the Miflix caps.  I've been thinking about bypassing my Jupiter caps too.  How do they sound?  Was it a noticeable improvement over running the Jupiters without a bypass?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 15 Oct 2019, 06:02 pm
I had Sonicap Platinums as bypass caps before. The Miflix were a definite  improvement, more detail and more dynamic. I think you'll like the difference.

As you know with these speaker every change can be heard.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Nov 2019, 12:51 am
I found some pure silver speaker wire in my storage closet and decided to use them for the subs on my Super 7s.  Ordered some new speakOn connectors that had gold plating instead of the steel connectors I had before. 

Got everything in and assembled today.  Hooked it up and.... wow, the lower mids are MUCH clearer and way better integrated with the mid panels. 

It was a bit surprising how much affect it had on the mids, but then again considering how high the subs play up to, it actually makes sense. 

Anyway, lesson learned - the cabling on the subs matters.  If you have generic wire on your subs, try out something better, you might be surprised!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 18 Nov 2019, 03:17 am
Are your silver cables solid core or stranded?  Also, what guage and insulation type?  Just curious. 

I was considering wiring mine with 3’ runs of Kimber 12TC.  Well, I was when I was working.  Have to find a job before I can do anything new to my rig.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Nov 2019, 05:33 pm
Burning in some of the new copper caps being offered at GR Research here. (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165854.0)
Started with the  high pas  filter, have them bypasses with  Miflex  coppers as well.
Getting close to 100 hrs, letting them  play continuously.
Could hear the potential right  out of the gate, more dtail  and depth  but   they were "crsipy" , not overly   enjoyable.


Seem to be improving  quite  a bit now... need some more hours

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Nov 2019, 05:38 pm
Are your silver cables solid core or stranded?  Also, what guage and insulation type?  Just curious. 

I was considering wiring mine with 3’ runs of Kimber 12TC.  Well, I was when I was working.  Have to find a job before I can do anything new to my rig.

Solid Core.  16ga I think.  Based on listening tests, I've not lost and volume or extension going from 12ga generic copper to 16ga pure silver.  I'll pull out my FFT analyzer and run some test tones through the system this afternoon to confirm. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Nov 2019, 05:40 pm
Burning in some of the new copper caps being offered at GR Research here. (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165854.0)
Started with the  high pas  filter, have them bypasses with  Miflex  coppers as well.
Getting close to 100 hrs, letting them  play continuously.
Could hear the potential right  out of the gate, more dtail  and depth  but   they were "crsipy" , not overly   enjoyable.


Seem to be improving  quite  a bit now... need some more hours

jay

I had that style copper cap in the midrange and tweeter position for a long time, and recently bypassed both of them with small Miflex caps.  As great as the big pure copper caps were, using the Miflex to bypass them DEFINITELY improved clarity and focus, particularly in the lower mids. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 22 Nov 2019, 01:40 pm
Built a new crossover. More detail is the immediate result. Have to get some hours on it now.

Jupiter capacitors, Miflex bypass capacitors and Jantzen inductors.
Steve

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201232)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 22 Nov 2019, 05:52 pm
Built a new crossover. More detail is the immediate result. Have to get some hours on it now.

Jupiter capacitors, Miflex bypass capacitors and Jantzen inductors.
Steve

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201232)

I could never find those large gauge Jantzen wax foils in stock anywhere.  I ended up going with some Mundorfs.   
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: maty on 22 Nov 2019, 06:12 pm
Today I have received the Miflex KPCU-01 0.022uF that I want to use to replace the styroflex that I added in my small coaxials. And Mills 5 watt resistors.

The current bypass was an improvement, I hope that these expensive Miflex are another. If not, I will also say so.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 22 Nov 2019, 07:04 pm
I could never find those large gauge Jantzen wax foils in stock anywhere.  I ended up going with some Mundorfs.   

Parts express will special order any value you need.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SteveKi on 22 Nov 2019, 07:25 pm
I could never find those large gauge Jantzen wax foils in stock anywhere.  I ended up going with some Mundorfs.

I ordered from hificollective in the UK. 4 week wait for the 1mh and 3mh. Ordered in July and finally got around to putting it together last week. Too cold now to do a second coat of paint. Then I need to screw down the drivers tighter.
Steve
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Dec 2019, 08:38 pm
I just upgrade my Super7s. I rewired the hi and mids with Neotech Gold/Silver wire  covered in Techflex , ( what a PITA the Techflex is to work with, won’t use that agin ) and replaced the bypass caps and resistors on the notch filters with  Miflex caps and PathAudio resistors.

I also made a new set of speaker cables using a combination of Neotech Gold/Silver and Neotech Silver wire covered in cotton sleeving.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202254)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202255)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 20 Dec 2019, 08:41 pm
I just upgrade my Super7s. I rewired the hi and mids with Neotech Gold/Silver wire  covered in Techflex , ( what a PITA the Techflex is to work with, won’t use that agin ) and replaced the bypass caps and resistors on the notch filters with  Miflex caps and PathAudio resistors.

I also made a new set of speaker cables using a combination of Neotech Gold/Silver and Neotech Silver wire covered in cotton sleeving.

How does it sound?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Dec 2019, 08:55 pm
Just started to burn in, not done any critical listening yet, I like to give it at least a couple days burn in first.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 21 Dec 2019, 12:35 am
OK Tyson you twisted my arm. :lol:    I listen to 5 songs that I’m very familiar with and my first impressions are:

 There is more detail and it’s cleaner and more defined. The sound stage got bigger and more filled in and a little wider with nicer separation. I kind of expected the above to some degree but what I found surprising was the mid bass has much more impact.

I’ll let it burn in a couple of more days and report back.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 21 Dec 2019, 01:48 am
OK Tyson you twisted my arm. :lol:    I listen to 5 songs that I’m very familiar with and my first impressions are:

 There is more detail and it’s cleaner and more defined. The sound stage got bigger and more filled in and a little wider with nicer separation. I kind of expected the above to some degree but what I found surprising was the mid bass has much more impact.

I’ll let it burn in a couple of more days and report back.

A lot of it is probably the wiring!  But some of it is certainly that little Path Audio resistor.  Those are like $30, but WELL worth it. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 21 Dec 2019, 02:24 am
I had over 250 hours on the caps, resistors and speaker cables, which did add some detail and better separation, but there more now and cleaner.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 21 Dec 2019, 02:39 pm
Another change I noticed is that I have to lower the volume 3 or 4 db to play at the levels that are comfortable, I would have expected the opposite as the wire is slightly small gauge then what it replaced.   :dunno:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 6 Jan 2020, 06:18 pm
I’ve got my upgrades done and burned in. I did three upgrades and I burned each one in for at least 200 hrs before tdoing the next upgrade. The first was replacing the Sonic bypass caps on my notch filter in my x-overs with Milflex caps and the mills resistors with Pathaudio resistors. This had the same effect as when I replaced the rest of the bypass caps with Milfex before. There was an increase in detail and a bit more dynamic.
 
The next upgrade was new speaker cables, they are made up of a combination of Neotech gold/silver and Neotech silver wire covered with a cotton sleeve. Agin an increase of detail and the separation got more distinct and  cleaner.

The third was a rewiring of the tweeters and mids with Neotech gold/silver wire. WOW! what a difference that made. I’m sure the two prier upgrades add to this, but still what a jump. The detail is incredible, the separation of the instruments and vocals is very clear and everything is just cleaner sounding. The mid bass has more punch and presence. Everything is more dynamic and  engaging. The change I liked the most, is now the vocals have this silkiness, especially on female voices,  that I just love.

Have to give credit to Danny for designing a speaker that what ever you do to it or the system it just comes though.

I have a new all in one unit coming in the next week to replace all my existing electronics, that is suppose to take all the improvements I’ve made  to the next level, according to someone with a very similar system, I will let you know.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202979)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202980)




Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 6 Jan 2020, 07:28 pm
Mike that looks awesome!  All you need now is some of these and your crossover will look exactly like mine, hahaha!:

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/66cf5404-e7d7-4f4c-a79b-fcd124f273e1_1.a09891deba7104aa14f1a499ebab1983.jpeg?odnWidth=450&odnHeight=450&odnBg=ffffff)

On a more serious note, you are right - the Super 7s are amazing in that they never ever become the bottleneck in your system.  Any change made upstream is heard perfectly clearly through them.  I've made a ton of changes (like you) and keep waiting for them to "top out" and they never do. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: titaniumheads on 8 Jan 2020, 03:58 pm
so I cut the grill frames for my super 7s in half and just covered the woofer section. I like the way it looks. Not a very good picture of them.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203062)

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 8 Jan 2020, 04:01 pm
so I cut the grill frames for my super 7s in half and just covered the woofer section. I like the way it looks.

Good idea. Definitely looks better.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Jan 2020, 05:34 pm
Making me  cry Greg  :( 

At least there's an easy option for  folks    !!

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Lundskovaudio on 4 Feb 2020, 09:35 pm
Hi Danny
I have my ls9 for more than 10 years now. Want to try something else.
Is the super 7 available as kit?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Feb 2020, 12:27 am
Sort of....    Neo 10's are currently unavailable but Danny  is working  on  a replacmement.
Working along  with Danny,  we designed a flat pack  for the Super 7's .   Danny was selling the  electronics side  until the Neo 10  shortage.
I posted some pics of the    first/prototype pair late in  this thread
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0

There are a  few pics   in this (current) thread as well of a couple  pairs that  were built out by customers



jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 26 Feb 2020, 11:05 pm
How does crazy Tyson spend a free Saturday?  I'm glad you asked!  He spends it doing crazy upgrades like this :) 

Backstory.  After taking the top part of my Super 7's to pretty much the limits of what can be upgraded, it occurred to me that the bottom/bass section had been neglected.  And I also realized that the bass section plays up high enough for it to benefit from some love. 

One thing that has always bothered me about the Super 7's is that, as fast as the bass is, it's never "quite" as fast as the blazing fast mids/highs.  I just assumed it was a result of bass waves being larger and thus slower and I just wouldn't be able to fight physics.  Right about that time I found some pure silver speaker wire in my storage closet.  It dawned on me that silver has always sounded very "fast" vs copper wire every time I tried it, but always too bright. 

Wait, thought, what if I use it on just the subs?  Would they sound faster?  Well, only one way to find out.  So I whipped up the wire to some SpeakOn connectors and put it into the system between the amps and the subs.  Oh wow.  Very nice, definitely improved the perceived speed of the bass. 

Next I take a trip to Danny's to upgrade my Klipsch Forte speakers and I bring along my new silver bass wire for him to try out.  I get there, tell him about it and he says he can't use it in his system because there is about 4 feet of copper wire in the subwoofer amp itself and he just pulls it out and uses it, directly connected from the board to the back of the subs.  DANGIT!!!!  Oh well. 

So when I get back home, what do I think to myself?  I think "Hmmm, I wonder if I could just clip out all that internal copper speaker wire in the amp and just hook my silver wire directly to the board itself?"  Yeah, that's not crazy at all!!!  :lol:

Of course that's exactly what I did.  I took some pics to document the process, but I strongly advise you - DO NOT DO THIS as it voids your warranty big time.  I'm waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy past my warrantee period and I'm also quite comfortable with a soldering gun and these types of mods.  If you are not, DO NOT DO THIS. 

For everyone else....

Old copper wire inside the amp:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205258)





Wire clipped out:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205259)








New pure silver wire prepped in a SpeakOn connector:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205260)







Board and wiring prepped for soldering and heat shrinking:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205261)







All done:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205262)


How does it sound and was it worth it?  Sound is much, much better.  The other thing I did at the same time is start to use a pure silver interconnect between my preamp and my sub amp.  These 2 changes together have really elevated the Super 7's performance.  Definitely STILL NOT at the level of the Lineforce, but close the gap by maybe 50%. 

The best improvement, IMO is the integration between the lower mids and the upper bass.  Before I've said on record that the one area of weakness for the Super 7's was the lower midrange power.  Not anymore.  I'm listening to Johnny Cash right now and DAMN his voice sounds INCREDIBLE now.  The sheer heft and power when he goes low is just incredible.  As good as the Lineforce?  Again, not quite.  But MUCH closer. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: DeeJayBump on 26 Feb 2020, 11:35 pm
Awesome, thanks for sharing, Tyson. Congrats on the improvements.

Any specifics on the silver wire you used? Gauge, purity, brand, etc?

Seems like I remember reading somebody here who's had their Rythmik Servo Amps modded by either Folsom or Ric Schultz, though IIRC those mods were component mods/changes/upgrades rather than wire upgrades.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 12:44 am
Awesome, thanks for sharing, Tyson. Congrats on the improvements.

Any specifics on the silver wire you used? Gauge, purity, brand, etc?

Seems like I remember reading somebody here who's had their Rythmik Servo Amps modded by either Folsom or Ric Schultz, though IIRC those mods were component mods/changes/upgrades rather than wire upgrades.

The speaker wire was from an old company that's no longer around - Pure Silver Sound I think they were called.

The interconnect was some old Kimber wire a friend had that I bought raw & then used these connectors to created the pure silver interconnect - https://www.ebay.com/itm/4N-pure-Silver-Star-Line-RCA-Plugs-connectors-2pcs/264506977856?hash=item3d95d82e40:g:MTgAAOSwXeJXc2Xv
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 27 Feb 2020, 01:08 am
Seems like I remember reading somebody here who's had their Rythmik Servo Amps modded by either Folsom or Ric Schultz, though IIRC those mods were component mods/changes/upgrades rather than wire upgrades.

Yeah, here it is:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145931.msg1561304#msg1561304

Hmmm... the silver wire mod is interesting, but probably beyond my skill level.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: DeeJayBump on 27 Feb 2020, 02:00 am
Yeah, here it is:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145931.msg1561304#msg1561304


That's it.  :D  Thanks, Early B.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 27 Feb 2020, 02:19 am
Tyson - you are a Mad Man!

Waaaaaay beyond my skill set.......but I like the idea!  :bowdown:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Zitoun on 27 Feb 2020, 03:20 am
Sort of....    Neo 10's are currently unavailable but Danny  is working  on  a replacmement.
Working along  with Danny,  we designed a flat pack  for the Super 7's .   Danny was selling the  electronics side  until the Neo 10  shortage.
I posted some pics of the    first/prototype pair late in  this thread
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0

There are a  few pics   in this (current) thread as well of a couple  pairs that  were built out by customers



jay


Assuming the Neo10 wil become available in the next few months, what would be the price of the super7 kit including flat pack and no rez ? (approximately).

Thanks
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 27 Feb 2020, 03:26 am

Assuming the Neo10 wil become available in the next few months, what would be the price of the super7 kit including flat pack and no rez ? (approximately).

Thanks

That likely won’t be able to be determined until the Neo10 replacement is finished and it’s price determined.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 03:31 am
Tyson - you are a Mad Man!

Waaaaaay beyond my skill set.......but I like the idea!  :bowdown:

Thanks man, that means a lot coming from you :P 

I do think that a big chunk of the improvement can be had simply from using a silver interconnect between your preamp and the sub amp, and then using a silver speaker cable between the sub amp and the speaker.  I just had to go and be extra crazy by attaching it to the sub amp board itself.

What I realized is that my preamp just has a splitter for the dual outputs.  One goes to the main amp, the other goes to the sub amp.  I'd assumed I could use a generic (blue jeans) interconnect because it was 'just bass', but in fact that generic cable is just as much in the signal path as every other part.  So out it had to go. 

Put another way, treat the subs as high end pieces the same way that you do your main amps and you'll be rewarded with much better sound. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 27 Feb 2020, 03:54 am
Put another way, treat the subs as high end pieces the same way that you do your main amps and you'll be rewarded with much better sound.

Yep. Let's face it -- bass is the foundation of most music. The stronger the foundation, the better the lows, mids and highs will be.

I never understood why speaker manufacturers would design a signature speaker using cheap plate amps to power the bass, or build tri-amp speakers and propose that customers power them with low quality multi-channel amps.       
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 27 Feb 2020, 06:28 pm
Tyson,  what  gauge  wire  did you use for the servo output leads  ?

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Feb 2020, 07:32 pm
Tyson,  what  gauge  wire  did you use for the servo output leads  ?

jay

14ga, which you can see from the pics is actually quite a bit heavier than the stock wire that was inside the amp.  I'd have used 12 ga, but I didn't have any on hand, and also 12ga silver would be hella expensive to buy.  So 14ga is where I settled. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 21 Mar 2020, 11:50 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49684125148_fc300900cd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iGq8ro)Super 7 (https://flic.kr/p/2iGq8ro) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79446895@N00/)

I recently moved my Super 7s to my living room to give them a little more breathing room and activity as they weren’t being used for a while.  It was tricky running them off my Denon AVR-X2500H receiver but after lots of trial and error I got it working.  One of the best things about the Neo drivers is that they are not ruthlessly revealing.  They are very forgiving and still bring a clarity that is really tough to match.  I’ve been playing lots of tv shows, movies, music, and video games and despite not having tweaked the crossover at all they just sound glorious.  Particularly on video games, they really bring them to life with incredible speed and dynamics.  Even my girlfriend has been enjoying them.  (She has accepted me and my hobby since the beginning!).

I know this might not be helpful right now since the neo10 drivers are unavailable but I just wanted to share my appreciation of these once more.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Mar 2020, 05:14 pm
Cool to hear you are both enjoying them  :)

Found your comment   about them not being overly  revealing  interesting....  I'd have to say the exact opposite... my Super7's  continue to amaze people  at how revealing and detailed  they are 
Recently I've spread mine out closer to the side walls   and toe'd them in a bit more,  they have totally disappeared  into the   room and  all we've got  is  sound.  I  was always worried about having them too close to side walls but  they   do not  seem to care

Keep  enjoying them   man

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 22 Mar 2020, 07:26 pm
I didn’t mean to say the 7’s aren’t highly resolving.  They absolutely are.  What I mean is that they sound great even with a $500 home theater receiver.  As in they don’t require a super high end system to sound great.  I’m sure with better gear they’ll sound even better.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 22 Mar 2020, 07:45 pm
I didn’t mean to say the 7’s aren’t highly resolving.  They absolutely are.  What I mean is that they sound great even with a $500 home theater receiver.  As in they don’t require a super high end system to sound great.  I’m sure with better gear they’ll sound even better.

This is true even with Danny’s inexpensive designs. The X-LS Encores I took to the show last year scale really well. They sound great with $500 amps, better with my $5,000 front end, and even better with a $1,000,000 front end.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 22 Mar 2020, 08:20 pm
Yeah, good point  Rob/Mike......    we've made the comment here numerous times..." the speakers are never the limiting factor"

As mentioned  been making a  few changes around here  and  things  just keep  getting better.... kind of wish a fellow who was here   a month or so ago  could hear the Super 7's now....


jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 27 Mar 2020, 09:48 pm
I didn’t mean to say the 7’s aren’t highly resolving.  They absolutely are.  What I mean is that they sound great even with a $500 home theater receiver.  As in they don’t require a super high end system to sound great.  I’m sure with better gear they’ll sound even better.

This mirrors my experience too.  The Super 7s sound good with anything, and just keep getting better and better as you put better gear in front of them.  It's a really neat trick they pull off - highly resolving and detailed, but extremely musical at the same time.  Usually it's either-or, not both.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: daveshear on 22 Apr 2020, 02:54 pm
Are there (4) NEO10's in each Super-7 Speaker? Thanks!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Peter J on 22 Apr 2020, 03:10 pm
Are there (4) NEO10's in each Super-7 Speaker? Thanks!

Yes.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 17 May 2020, 05:48 pm
Given how high the Neo3 is from the floor in the Super 7, has anyone here experimented with leaning your speakers forward?  At my listening postion my ears are about at the level of the very bottom Neo10 and I sit about 10 feet from my speakers.  I angled each of my speakers forward by putting a 1 inch wide 3/4 inch thick piece of mdf under the rear edge.  The sound was immediately fuller, more focused and detailed. 

I am not sure why it took me so long to try this given that I built in a 1/2 inch foward lean into the NX-Ottica monitors (I was a bit anxious about this coming from the shorter Super V's with tweeters just a hair lower than my ears).  So I never really heard the NX-Otticas without a forward lean.

Anyway, if you have a low seat and you sit 11 to 10 feet or less from these amazing speakers this is a cheap enough tweak to try.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: SoCalWJS on 17 May 2020, 07:52 pm
Given how high the Neo3 is from the floor in the Super 7, has anyone here experimented with leaning your speakers forward?  At my listening postion my ears are about at the level of the very bottom Neo10 and I sit about 10 feet from my speakers.  I angled each of my speakers forward by putting a 1 inch wide 3/4 inch thick piece of mdf under the rear edge.  The sound was immediately fuller, more focused and detailed. 

I am not sure why it took me so long to try this given that I built in a 1/2 inch foward lean into the NX-Ottica monitors (I was a bit anxious about this coming from the shorter Super V's with tweeters just a hair lower than my ears).  So I never really heard the NX-Otticas without a forward lean.

Anyway, if you have a low seat and you sit 11 to 10 feet or less from these amazing speakers this is a cheap enough tweak to try.
I think it would depend on the height of your ears in your Primary Listening Position to some degree.

Interesting that you mention this. Shortly after I got my Super 7's, I invited one of my friends from my local Audio Club over hoping for an additional point of view as I moved things around and made various adjustments (He is fairly well regarded as one of the true "Golden Ears" in the group. and not at all shy about giving his opinion). The very first suggestion he made was to raise the back of the speakers and aim the tweeters down a bit. He listened to a certain piece of music (I forget which) and said that the Vocals were "Too High" and likely due to the height of the tweeters.

I later measured the tweeters as around 44" and then the height of my ears when seated as somewhere around 38", so there was a bit of a gap. I then placed a small piece of shelving (covered with a microfiber cloth) under the rear of the speaker. This did result in voices being more focused height-wise. I also pulled out a different chair that was a bit taller (but not as comfortable as my regular chair). Helped in some respects.

On the other hand, I don't think the speakers are anchored to the floor as well, resulting in a decrease in overall focus of instruments.

May work further on it at some point.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 17 May 2020, 08:59 pm
I'm getting ready to go full active with my system and have a question on feeding my sub. I will have only a single out for my sub, will I need a Y splitter or can I just go into one RCA on my Rythmik amp?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 17 May 2020, 09:04 pm
Anyway, if you have a low seat and you sit 11 to 10 feet or less from these amazing speakers this is a cheap enough tweak to try.


Hmmmm.... I don't have Super 7's. Nevertheless, I just measured my tweeter height and it's 48" vs. 38" ear height and I sit 11 feet away from the speakers. I'm gonna try this tonight and report back.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 17 May 2020, 10:01 pm

Hmmmm.... I don't have Super 7's. Nevertheless, I just measured my tweeter height and it's 48" vs. 38" ear height and I sit 11 feet away from the speakers. I'm gonna try this tonight and report back.


You will probably see less benefit since your speakers are tweeter-midrange where as the super 7 is mtm.   I pretty sure that the benefits I hear are more related to getting the top midrange section more into the action since before hand it was shooting way over my head.  Getting the tweeter in line with the ear is the perfect way to make sure the top and bottom mids are even.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 May 2020, 10:41 pm
I'm getting ready to go full active with my system and have a question on feeding my sub. I will have only a single out for my sub, will I need a Y splitter or can I just go into one RCA on my Rythmik amp?

Mike, 
Why only  one output ?   I'd be wanting to keep them in stereo.. I know people say it  doesn't make a  difference (stereo vs non-stereo)  but it does, and especially  with the S7's, the  subs are playing up quite  high.    You need them to  be left/right fed

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 17 May 2020, 11:39 pm
Sorry Jay, I wasn't clear I'm talking about my sealed sub, which is fed off the 7's sub amp outs now, but will have its' own feed completely active. The subs in the 7's will be fed stereo.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 May 2020, 01:23 am
Sorry Jay, I wasn't clear I'm talking about my sealed sub, which is fed off the 7's sub amp outs now, but will have its' own feed completely active. The subs in the 7's will be fed stereo.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 18 May 2020, 01:42 am
So can I feed the mono signal into one RCA in or do I need a Y adaptor?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Early B. on 18 May 2020, 02:54 am
You will probably see less benefit since your speakers are tweeter-midrange where as the super 7 is mtm.   

OK, here's my quick assessment -- 

I lifted the rear of my speakers about one-half inch and used Barbra Streisand's, "You Don't Bring Me Flowers" as my test track. Immediately, the imaging was improved, and when Neil Diamond cuts in, his voice is much deeper. No question about it. I said to myself, "that's gotta be all in my head." So I went back and forth. The difference was clear. Then I put on a few tracks that I'm more familiar with and can't say definitively it made a difference, but I didn't go back and forth with those songs.  I heard enough to keep the rear of the speakers slightly elevated.   
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mlundy57 on 18 May 2020, 02:56 am
So can I feed the mono signal into one RCA in or do I need a Y adaptor?

You can feed it into one. If for some reason, you can't get enough gain on the sealed sub with one input, You can use a Y adapter into two of the subs inputs and get an additional 6dB of gain.

Mike
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 18 May 2020, 03:05 am
Thanks, mlundy57
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: AKLegal on 18 May 2020, 11:18 am
OK, here's my quick assessment -- 

I lifted the rear of my speakers about one-half inch and used Barbra Streisand's, "You Don't Bring Me Flowers" as my test track. Immediately, the imaging was improved, and when Neil Diamond cuts in, his voice is much deeper. No question about it. I said to myself, "that's gotta be all in my head." So I went back and forth. The difference was clear. Then I put on a few tracks that I'm more familiar with and can't say definitively it made a difference, but I didn't go back and forth with those songs.  I heard enough to keep the rear of the speakers slightly elevated.

Cool.  I didnt realize your speakers were that tall either.  I think their lack of an upper woofer threw me off a bit.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 May 2020, 07:19 pm
Thanks, mlundy57

Also IIRC,   only  one of the   inputs  has the auto on circuitry.  This may have changed as the amps have evolved.

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mikeeastman on 23 May 2020, 07:36 pm
As my amps are on 24/7 it shouldn't matter.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Zitoun on 6 Jun 2020, 06:12 am
Hey Guys,

Still WIP, the newborn starts looking like a S7.

Looking at the NX MTM dimensions for the top section, if one of you can help with that I will greatly appreciate.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210009)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210011)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=210010)

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 23 Jul 2020, 08:00 pm
Super 7 owners who have rebuilt their passive crossovers -  I am working on building new crossovers for my speakers. Mine are all original parts. Wanted to ask what type and gauge wire you used for your build on both midrange and treble circuits.

Thanks
Ben


Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 Jul 2020, 08:36 pm
I used  Neotech UPOCC solid core 16 awg   in teflon.  Used it right from  tube connectors  all the way through and  up to drivers.

I know  a couple others  who  done similar  with the   Neotech Silver/Gold blend.   I have not had the chance to compare them  though

jay
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: emailtim on 15 May 2021, 07:39 pm
Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.

Hi Danny,

Did these USA 4-9 copper wax foil inductor coils ever materialize ? 

Thanks much.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 May 2021, 01:46 am
They did.

A pretty good production run of them were made. Here are the values left of that production run.

4.56, 4.63, 5.62, 5.72, 5.86, 5.95, 6.33, 6.49, 6.51, 6.6, 7.76, 7.94, 10.81, 10.82, 10.84, 13.98, 16.08, 16.15, 16.21, 19.55, 21.35

And they are now priced at close out prices.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 13 Jun 2022, 03:47 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=241663)

Finally got around to installing the Jantzen copper wax foil inductors.  I got the 12awg version for the main signal path choke on the midrange circuit.  I also took this opportunity to redo the board which the crossovers would be mounted to.  I previously used an 1/8” melamine board which was a little too thin and occasionally vibrated with the music.  Putting some vibration absorbing pads under the board helped some but still wasn’t ideal.

I wanted to make something sturdier and with vibration control built in.  I found some 12”x12”x3/16” cork tiles on Amazon for around $10.  I also picked up a 2’x2’x1/4” plywood panel at Home Depot for $8.  I cut the plywood into two 12”x12” squares and basically made a sandwich with a cork tile on top and underneath the plywood piece.  To keep it from sliding around I also put a few pieces of strong double sided tape under the crossover. 

I also took this time to properly mount my tube connectors rather than having them float freely.  I just used some 1”x1” wood for that. 

The verdict is that the copper wax coil is a big winner in my book!  The first thing I noticed was percussion was more precise and tactile.  Wood instruments resonated more.  Bass in general was greatly improved.  The overall presentation was a bit warmer but without reducing detail.

I’m so glad I jumped on these kits when I had the chance!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Endo2112 on 13 Jun 2022, 07:59 pm
I think we still have 1-2 kits available actually, reach out to Captainhemo if interested.

Don
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mkrawcz on 13 Jun 2022, 09:27 pm
I’m so glad I jumped on these kits when I had the chance!
I'm jealous!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 14 Jun 2022, 01:52 am
If anyone is interested in a good deal on Jupiter copper foil caps for the Super 7's, mine are on sale for half retail here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182212.msg1913759#msg1913759
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 12 Jul 2022, 11:05 pm
Well, I'm back, not that it matters.  :?

In the last couple years, I've calmed my audiofoolia nersova and have been most of the time just listening, altho I've bought a pair of PS Audio M1200 poweramps.. Those drove the Quad 2905s, and I've been very happy with the results.

BUT...all good things apparently must come to an end, and last WE one of the Quads starting popping, getting louder and louder, so I removed them and reinstalled the Super-7s*.. I used, initially, the M1200s, and the system sounded plenty good--the S7s hadn't been used for maybe 1-1/2 years--but those all-triode, output-transformerless Atma-Sphere M-160s called to me and I soon had those running with only 3 pairs (of the original 7 pairs) in each amp.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242684)

The system has maybe 20 hours on it thru last night, and it sounds VERY good, maybe better than the Quad system at its best.. But since bass quality is easier for me to discern, probably my observations are 'slanted' by the S7s' much-superior bass definition and extention.

In spite of my many notes here about rebuilding the crossovers for the third time, I've yet to do that, with them still playing music thru the mostly Sonicap-Platinum caps.. I still have the big MYFLEX KPCU caps, a pair of small inductors, and the custom-made-by-SonicCraft wiring loom.. The latter is made with Neotec UPOCC-silver and Mundorf silver-gold conductors so certainly will be an improvement over my cobbled-together stuff.. This time Sonic Craft will be building the crossovers on the granite tiles...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242685)
 
I'm really impressed with the overall-high-quality of the music, especially with all the 'new' pieces not yet broken in.   :D

* With my younger, stronger, fellow-audiofool goodbuddy in the hospital, it was a lot of work wrestling all of this around, but this 78-year-old chubby guy managed.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 13 Jul 2022, 04:40 pm
Jeffrey-

Good to hear from this thread's originator.

I am working on improving the bass in my system and room. Did you make any further changes to improve your bass since you posted in 2016?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 13 Jul 2022, 07:29 pm
Jeffrey-

Good to hear from this thread's originator.

I am working on improving the bass in my system and room. Did you make any further changes to improve your bass since you posted in 2016?

TYVM.

No, no changes to the bass end of the S7s.. I installed longer wiring to the bass drivers years ago but used inexpensive 16g.-times-4 stranded wire.. If I have ANY ambition left after installing the new x-overs and new wiring, maybe I'll do that.  And now that I think about it, the 5-1/2"-thick acoustic panels behind the speakers (where the SuperSubs are in the original-post pics) are somewhat new.. When swung away from the walls about 6", they absorb some bass and lots of MR and treble back wave.. Oops--you didn't ask about S7 bass, you asked about bass...I've added two huge bass traps, one at the upper left-hand wall and one at the upper-rear wall.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 13 Jul 2022, 07:54 pm
Did you find installing the large bass traps in the upper left-hand wall and upper rear wall to be worth the cost and effort?

Asking as I am strongly considering large bass traps.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 13 Jul 2022, 08:00 pm
Since the woofers play so high up in the signal (well over 100hz), a good upgrade is to:



It won't add any brightness to the mids/highs, but it will clean up the bass quite a bit. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 13 Jul 2022, 08:16 pm
I have already optimized everything I can think of to do to the servo-amps including wiring, isolation, and control adjustments. I am convinced the highest likely hood of bass improvement lies with either passive or active bass traps or EQ unit instead of the PEQ controls, which I find only slightly effective.

And as long as we are discussing improvements for the Super-7s the number one improvement I have made for the speakers is hands down installing Townshend Seismic Bars under the speakers. Better improvement than all the upgraded crossover components, rewiring the servo-amps, etc. that I have done.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 13 Jul 2022, 11:12 pm
Did you find installing the large bass traps in the upper left-hand wall and upper rear wall to be worth the cost and effort?

Asking as I am strongly considering large bass traps.

Absolutely the height of the 30Hz bass node decreased greatly and the quality of the bass improved...that is, the sounds of, for instance, a string bass became more defined and less flabby.

If you know which end of a hammer to grab, you too can build your own bass traps; all they are are large chunks of fiberglas building insulation contained in some sort of structure and covered in acoustically transparent cloth.. Here's the rear one installed...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242696)

...and the west one installed.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242697)

In process:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242698)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242699)

One thing lots of us amateurs including myself haven't/hadn't thought about--if you don't want your trap(s) absorbing mid and high frequencies, you must cover the fiberglas facing the listening space with some kind of reflective plastic.. My room has plenty of exposed drywall, so absorbing those mids and highs was a goal..  Also, don't mount them ON the walls or ceilings; basstraps work much better spaced away from the hard surfaces.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 13 Jul 2022, 11:18 pm
I have already optimized everything I can think of to do to the servo-amps including wiring, isolation, and control adjustments. I am convinced the highest likely hood of bass improvement lies with either passive or active bass traps or EQ unit instead of the PEQ controls, which I find only slightly effective.

And as long as we are discussing improvements for the Super-7s the number one improvement I have made for the speakers is hands down installing Townshend Seismic Bars under the speakers. Better improvement than all the upgraded crossover components, rewiring the servo-amps, etc. that I have done.

WOW; at 2000 British Pounds for 4 bars, I'll continue to use my own inexpensive isolation pads.  https://www.analogueseduction.net/isolation/townshend-seismic-isolation-bars.html
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 14 Jul 2022, 12:43 am
Actually it is 1000 British Pounds for 4 bars (2 bars per speaker). They are a bargain for what they bring to the table. They smoked the Gaia 1 feet I had under them.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 16 Jul 2022, 03:56 am
So Wednesday I called Mark Sammut of Reno HiFi and left messages.. We finally talked Thursday, noonish, and I discovered that he and Reno HF are now in Phoenix.. I ordered two First Watt J2 poweramps, and Mark delivered them to my house that afternoon since mine is on his way home.. How's THAT for good service?

Here's the system with the J2s in and a bit cleaned up.   :roll:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242773)

Both amps are running in normal stereo but with only one channel per chassis being used..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=242774)

Recall that each is rated at 25WPC into 8 and 13WPC into 4.. I'll be wiring the two channels in each amp in parallel; in that fashion, the 8-Ohm rating is still 25 Watts max. per chassis, but the 4-Ohm rating increases to 50 Watts per chassis...IIRC.

I'll soon be rewiring both into monoamps and making a few improvements (but not as many as in my first pair of these).. More later.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Jul 2022, 06:45 am
The First Watt J2s and the Super-7s, which hadn't been running for about 2 years, are still breaking in, and the system sounds better each day.

Found and ordered today a pair of Atma-Sphere M-60s, version III.3 with V-Caps and the power-supply boost.. Those pure-triode signal paths do indeed call to me. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 18 Jul 2022, 02:14 pm
The First Watt J2s and the Super-7s, which hadn't been running for about 2 years, are still breaking in, and the system sounds better each day.

Found and ordered today a pair of Atma-Sphere M-60s, version III.3 with V-Caps and the power-supply boost.. Those pure-triode signal paths do indeed call to me. 


Have you tried any 2a3 or 300b amps with your Super 7's?  I have and they are pretty magical (and go pretty loud, actually).
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 18 Jul 2022, 07:39 pm
Have you tried any 2a3 or 300b amps with your Super 7's?  I have and they are pretty magical (and go pretty loud, actually).

Years ago I tried Coincident Frankenstein IIs (300B) and WAVAC 805s, but they bored me and I sold them.. (See my original post in this thread.) My best sounds from the S7s were from a pair of somewhat-improved Atma-Sphere M-60s and the larger MA-1s.. I guess that, for me, multiple triodes, NO output transformers, and S7s are VERY musical.. The new M-60s Mk.III.3 might get here this week.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 24 Jul 2022, 07:34 pm
Oh lord!  I'm now fantasizing about a pair of maybe-10-year-old monster-SET amps powered by FOUR 300Bs and rated at 50 or 60 Watts per chassis depending on output tubes!! They're Allnic A-6000s that cost something like $20K in early 2000s and are now rarely seen available used.. Here's some info on them.
https://www.audioresurgence.com/2021/10/allnic-audio-a-6000-review.html
http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/allnic/allnic_6.html

Further complicating my amp choices is that I have a pair of Sanders 10e hybrid e'stats on the way*.. Roger Sanders loves to see these driven with two of his 500WPC-into-8 stereo amps (totaling 2kW into eight), but I think he likes HIGH dynamic range lots more than I do.. I'll be starting with 60 WPC Atma-Spheres** on the panels and PS Audio M700s on the bass.. If the A-S 60s have enough power for the panels (I do NOT listen loudly), probably I'll buy the A-6000s in England if they're still around and sell the A-S 160s.   


* Shipped in 5 cartons via UPS, even with UPS notifying me that all-5 cartons would arrive yesterday the 23rd, only ONE arrived, a bass box.. OOPS has so far found 2 for Monday delivery, but WOW what shitty service!!!!!!!!
** I also have A-S M1s (140Watts into 8 or 4) here and may 'need' them for the 10es; if that happens, the Allnics won't be powerful enough.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mkrawcz on 24 Jul 2022, 07:58 pm
How about a pair of these?  :D
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 25 Jul 2022, 01:57 am
How about a pair of these?  :D
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers

GREAT idea!!!!!! I could buy THREE pairs for my surround system!!!!!!!!!

And I thought the A-6000s were expensive!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: charmerci on 25 Jul 2022, 02:39 am
How about a pair of these?  :D
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers (https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers)


 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 26 Jul 2022, 09:20 am
Getting ready to install the Sanders 10E hybrid-e'stats, some but not all of which has arrived.

Have moved the Atma-Sphere 60s and pads inwards, added outward new PS Audio M700s to drive 10E woofers, and placed dbx speaker-management system atop center stand.. Have a pair of excellent-sounding A-S M1s (140W. into 4 or eight) to use if the 60s lack power.

Prior Martin-Logan hybrid-e'stat centerchannel ('CC') speaker last week had begun ticking at me so removed it.. Will be trying a modest Polk Audio TSi Series CS10 CC speaker when it arrives.. Determined that the multichannel-MUSIC system sounds excellent being defined as having no CC speaker but that movie dialog without a centerchannel is too buried in the 2 front channels for me, so will use the Polk or some other CC speaker for movies and simply remove it from the pre/pro's setup each time I switch.. Takes about 15 seconds..  :)

The A-S 60s are current models (Mk.III.3) and are still breaking in; they sound much better today than Saturday.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Jul 2022, 08:16 pm
This is my first and last note about the Sanders 10E system in this thread.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243214)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243215)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243216)

Bought a pair of PS Audio M700s to drive the woofers; the Atma-Sphere M-60s are driving the panels very well.. The small black-fronted rectangle standing on the right-channel M700 is a maybe-40-year-old Audio Technology model 510 'power meter'.. Of course, it doesn't measure power at all, it senses Voltage and displays results in dB with '0' references of 25, 50, or 100 Watts into 4, 8, or 16 Ohms.. It's very quick responding and is useful for giving one a general idea of how much power the amps are delivering in real time.. The listening level required to get the LEDs up to zero and even to +3dB is unbearably loud, so those 'little' '60s have plenty of power for me.. (Roger Sanders recommends two of his 500WPC-into-8 amps to power this system, one driving the panels and one driving the woofers.)  The dbx speaker-management system, a DriveRack VENU360 model, comes programmed by Sanders for the system and is easy enough to use.

FWIW, the biggest sonic difference between the S7s and the 10Es is the latter's superior bottom-octave energy.. Early in the 20-hours-per-day burn-in, the system is listenable but a little harsh with orchestral violins and trumpets*.. Sanders recommends automated-then-adjusted frequency adjusting and, if the system is still a little bright, a slight treble-down shelf; haven't done those yet.

* and we have to understand that my ears have problematical HF response and that I wear hearingaids.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: wingsounds13 on 29 Jul 2022, 01:08 am
Great to hear about the Sanders 10E.  I have lusted at those speakers for years,  being an aficionado of electrostats since the '80s.  My first set was Acoustat 1+1, followed by Martin-Logan CLS.  I still have both of those but they both need rebuilding.  I have extra panels for the Acoustats, but I fear that new panels for the CLS might be a tad expensive these days.  Of course the interface modules need rebuilding too...  If only I had money.  :o

J.P.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 5 Aug 2022, 07:21 am
After many hours of adjusting, changing, etc., more than 150 hours of burn-in, and lots of listening by me and my Golden-eared friend, I decided that IF the 10Es are better than the S7s, it's by very little and sometimes the S7s are slightly better than the 10s, so the 10s are going back.

Oh well, it was worth the time and effort.. LOVE THOSE Super-7s!!!
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: S Clark on 5 Aug 2022, 01:58 pm
Thanks for this thread.  I've not heard the 10E's, but I'm very familiar with the S7.  I was at the RMAF when Danny introduced them, and they were clearly in the top 2-3 speakers at the show.  If the 10E's are better, wow... :thumb:
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 5 Aug 2022, 03:34 pm
I heard the 10E's and thought they were very good (better than the Martin Logan stuff Sanders used to design for).  The only 2 drawbacks I saw were 1, a very narrow soundstage due to their flat panel design, and 2, the inability to run lower powered tube amps. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 9 Aug 2022, 09:07 am
The Sanders 10es are packed and ready to return to Sanders.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243620)

The S7s are back in the system in new positions, about 1-1/2 feet closer to the listener and about a foot closer together, and sounding excellent again.. I think the Atma-Sphere's V-Cap Teflon coupling caps still need some burn-in, but the amps still sound plenty good.. Here's what the backend looks like now..
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243621)

I've ordered a wide, two-high stand for all this stuff (and more!), so don't have the amps on their granite pads or anything on the floor.

Am about to order a pair of Allnic A-6000 amps.. These are fairly rare--mine will be coming from England!--superb-sounding single-ended amps using four (!) 300Bs in parallel for 60 Watts per chassis if using a particular 300B or 50 Watts if not.. These come HIGHLY recommended by my audio guru.. Will be converting a couple unused 120V. branch circuits into a single 240V. line (see link below).. Also have a bunch of AudioQuest Fog Lifter cable lifters coming, which I'll use on powercords first instead of my 1- , 2-, and 3-high IKEA glass tealights I use now.. Have also ordered some different, inexpensive vibration-absorbing equipment feet; more later on those.

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/21/213426.html
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: dolsey01 on 9 Aug 2022, 06:05 pm
I heard the 10E's and thought they were very good (better than the Martin Logan stuff Sanders used to design for).  The only 2 drawbacks I saw were 1, a very narrow soundstage due to their flat panel design, and 2, the inability to run lower powered tube amps.

I hate to be that guy but :wink:   "I was trading e-mails with Roger Sanders, manufacturer of the Eros Mk.III electrostatic (ESL) loudspeakers, when it occurred to me to ask him about his name. I was struck that he had the same last name as Gayle Sanders, president of another American electrostatic speaker company, MartinLogan. Were they related? "No," replied Roger Sanders, "it's simply a coincidence that we have similar names. I've never even met him. "

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html (https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html)

Roger Sanders = Sanders Sound Systems (Previously Innersound)
Gayle (Martin) Sanders = Martin Logan
Ron (Logan) Sutherland = Martin Logan
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 9 Aug 2022, 06:45 pm
I hate to be that guy but :wink:   "I was trading e-mails with Roger Sanders, manufacturer of the Eros Mk.III electrostatic (ESL) loudspeakers, when it occurred to me to ask him about his name. I was struck that he had the same last name as Gayle Sanders, president of another American electrostatic speaker company, MartinLogan. Were they related? "No," replied Roger Sanders, "it's simply a coincidence that we have similar names. I've never even met him. "

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html (https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html)

Roger Sanders = Sanders Sound Systems (Previously Innersound)
Gayle (Martin) Sanders = Martin Logan
Ron (Logan) Sutherland = Martin Logan

Wow, I totally confused the 2.  Thanks for pointing that out. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: BobRex on 9 Aug 2022, 10:55 pm
If you really want to get pedantic - Roger developed the curved electrostatic panel and decided it wasn't worth the effort.  Gayle (and Ron) took Roger's design and flew with it.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: goryu on 9 Aug 2022, 11:01 pm
Do the super 7's use neo 8's or neo 10's?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Aug 2022, 11:03 pm
Do the super 7's use neo 8's or neo 10's?

Each speaker used four Neo 10's.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mkane on 10 Aug 2022, 02:11 am
 And there missing in action
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: goryu on 10 Aug 2022, 02:47 am
Each speaker used four Neo 10's.

Thanks...
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 12 Aug 2022, 02:41 am
OK, back to our Super-7 systems, please.

The Allnic A-6000 amps--see post 907 above--are ordered, the bank transfer will be issued tomorrow (Friday the 12), and I'm very excited.. I've talked to my electrician about converting two of my dedicated 20A. dedicated lines in a single 24-VAC line, and I'll be using, initially, the original British-standard 1363 outlets, outlet boxes, and powercords.  Tubes supplied are NOS Philips ECL85 input/drivers and a set of Psvanne 300Bs.. I also have a pair of NOS Tesla ECL85s coming.

The retailer is having custom shipping crates built (for £200).  With these 3000Bs in them, max continuous power is 50 Watts per chassis, PLENTY-much for S7s.

More later.. Meawhile my S7s, driven by the new-to-me (and 'stock') Atma-Sphere M-60s, are sounding excellent, and I think the new positioning is the best ever.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 12 Aug 2022, 11:03 pm
The Allnic A-6000 50-Watt, SET monoamps were ordered this week and the bank transfer was done today.. These amps are unique in that they use four 300B D(irectly)H(eated) triodes in parallel and that a pentode is used to drive the 300Bs with as much as 150 Volts (I think that's p-to-p) to get 12-1/2 Watts per tube instead of the normal 8 Watts per tube.. With Emission Labs' 300B-SLXs, the amp will make 60 Watts.. They use Permalloy cores in the output transformer and two chokes (and maybe power t-former too).. Tube complement is an 6GV8/ECL805 triode/pentode plus the 300Bs.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243694)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243695)

They're also graced with an XLR input to accommodate those of us who use only balanced cables.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=243696)

Should be here by end of August.





Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 13 Aug 2022, 01:55 pm
Can anyone tell me whether the resistor in the Super-7 passive crossover is in the signal path to the Neo-3 driver?

Also what is the crossover frequency between the Neo-10s and the Neo-3?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: mkane on 13 Aug 2022, 02:16 pm
 I would think that would depend on sub-adjustments. Dial down at 120 on the plate amp and in real life, measured probably around 175Hz.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 13 Aug 2022, 02:26 pm
Can anyone tell me whether the resistor in the Super-7 passive crossover is in the signal path to the Neo-3 driver?

It is not in the signal path and it’s not on the tweeter circuit.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jaytor on 13 Aug 2022, 03:04 pm
The Allnic A-6000 50-Watt, SET monoamps were ordered this week and the bank transfer was done today..

They're also graced with an XLR input to accommodate those of us who use only balanced cables.

Should be here by end of August.

That looks like a very nice amp.  Congrats.

I wonder about the XLR input though. From the photos in the 6 moons review, it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used, but it's not the sharpest photo so I could easily be missing something. I took a look at it to see if they were using a transformer, but didn't see anything. It could be that the shielded input cable that goes from the input connectors to the input circuit is actually a balanced cable, but it doesn't look like it too me. Perhaps there is an option to add an input transformer.

At any rate, beautiful amp.



Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 13 Aug 2022, 03:12 pm
Thank you corndog.

mkane - I am asking for the crossover frequency between the midrange and treble drivers, not between the bass and midrange.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 13 Aug 2022, 08:25 pm
That looks like a very nice amp.  Congrats.

I wonder about the XLR input though. From the photos in the 6 moons review, it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used, but it's not the sharpest photo so I could easily be missing something. I took a look at it to see if they were using a transformer, but didn't see anything. It could be that the shielded input cable that goes from the input connectors to the input circuit is actually a balanced cable, but it doesn't look like it too me. Perhaps there is an option to add an input transformer.

At any rate, beautiful amp.

TY and TY.

"... it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used".. I expect that's correct; I'll know in a couple weeks.. But that makes sense, as it's a single-ended amp and has no 'use' for the negative-polarity half of the balanced signal.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 13 Aug 2022, 09:01 pm
I have a tube preamp that's the same way.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jaytor on 14 Aug 2022, 03:14 pm
TY and TY.

"... it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used".. I expect that's correct; I'll know in a couple weeks.. But that makes sense, as it's a single-ended amp and has no 'use' for the negative-polarity half of the balanced signal.


It looks like there is plenty of room to add an input transformer on the XLR inputs. If you are using a balanced preamp, you might consider seeing if they will add one for you. I am using a Jensen transformer in my 300B PSET amps and it sounds great.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 20 Aug 2022, 08:39 pm
It looks like there is plenty of room to add an input transformer on the XLR inputs. If you are using a balanced preamp, you might consider seeing if they will add one for you. I am using a Jensen transformer in my 300B PSET amps and it sounds great.

OK...I'm a little foggy here...what is the benefit of a transformer if the amp NEVER uses the negative waveform?
------------------------------
For whatever it's worth, I'm getting typical-for-this-dealer noncommunications on his progress of building shipping cases and actually shipping the amps.. Oh well...his previous behavior warned me.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: BobRex on 20 Aug 2022, 09:39 pm
I think you are getting a little confused.  The amplifier MUST use the negative wave, otherwise you have a rectifier (half wave at this point).  Keep in mind a single ended signal carries the full signal (positive and negative) on one line.  I would think that if you connected a balanced output from a pre or DAC via a true balanced cable, you are going to have problems.  Are the Allnic pre outs true balanced or are they cheating there?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: HAL on 20 Aug 2022, 10:45 pm
The negative polarity is just the original signal 180deg inverted in phase.   The positive polarity is the original signal. 

Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 21 Aug 2022, 03:25 am
I think you are getting a little confused.  The amplifier MUST use the negative wave, otherwise you have a rectifier (half wave at this point).  Keep in mind a single ended signal carries the full signal (positive and negative) on one line.  I would think that if you connected a balanced output from a pre or DAC via a true balanced cable, you are going to have problems.  Are the Allnic pre outs true balanced or are they cheating there?

WOW; I think both of us are really confused.. First, ALL the musical info is included in the complete positive-polarity wavefom and also the complete negative-polarity waveform; neither signal is half-wave, both are full-wave.. Single-ended amplifiers use only the positive-polarity waveform; that's why they're called single-ended instead of balanced or push-pull.. The line-level negative-polarity waveform is never used even if it's sent down a balanced cable and inputted thru an XLR connector.. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see the negative pin grounded with a 100K resistor.

I'm using a Marantz pre/pro, and even tho it does have balanced inputs, I don't know if it's truly balanced (all the way thru) or if the negative-polarity waveform of the balanced signal is created at the output stage simply to 'have' balanced outputs.

Read HAL's beautifully concise explanation above if you're still confused.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jaytor on 22 Aug 2022, 03:11 pm
With a differential input (such as using a input line transformer), the audio signal is the difference between the two input signals (+ and = phase) and is independent of the ground connection. This can provide two advantages. 1) any common mode noise, such as what might be picked up by the interconnect, is eliminated, and 2) any noise or offset between the ground connection at the source and the amp is ignored (minimizing any ground loop problems).

If your pre/pro and your amp are plugged into the same outlet or conditioner, and your interconnects are fairly short, these advantages are not significant, and you are probably better off using single ended connections. I believe that most good RCA interconnects will work better than a comparably priced XLR cable if you are not using the negative phase signal. RCA interconnects are designed assuming that the common ground will also be used as the signal return. XLR interconnects are not designed with this in mind.

But if you plan to (or ever expect to) place your amplifier near your speakers and separate from the rest of your gear, the ability to take full advantage of balanced connections might be worthwhile.

I use 7M balanced interconnects from my preamp to my monoblock amps, and while they are plugged into the same dedicated circuit, the outlet (for my right amp) is on the other side of the room from my preamp. Balanced interconnects sound noticeably better with a blacker background and better overall sound quality. Looking at the signal to the driver stage (after the input transformer for balanced) on my amp with my inexpensive oscilloscope showed an obvious reduction in background noise.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 10 Sep 2022, 07:39 pm
OK, back to Super-7s.. Here they are including my new lowboy backend-equipment stand and my new/old pair of Allnic A-6000 PSET poweramps.. The empty bay will be occupied by the incoming AudioKineses stereo SWARM subwoofer-system amps.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=244690)

The Allnics didn't stay there long after one tube shorted and destroyed the fuse holder and fried the pair of resistors attached to that 300B socket.. Parts coming.. Reinstalled my Atma-Spere MA-1s but again with only 4 pairs of output tubes (instead of 7), and the system sounds GLORIUS.. Still haven't had the x-overs rebuilt or gotten the super-duper wiring harness installed.. These parts-improved MA-1s are still the finest-sounding poweramps I've ever heard.  :)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Tyson on 10 Sep 2022, 10:07 pm
I've found that the Super 7's are never the limiting factor in my system.  No matter what equipment I throw at them, they always show exactly what the upchain gear is doing. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 24 Sep 2022, 07:05 am
Made some progress at finding a poweramp better sounding than my much-improved Atma-Sphere MA-1s.. Here are a couple candidates...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245054)
...being the Opera Consonance Cyber 845S (left) and the deHavilland 845-G.. One of the Operas quit working and I'll have it repaired next week.. The deHs sound very-good to excellent but did not dethrone the Viva Auroras...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245055)
...which have a richness, wholeness, 'roundness'--but NOT thickness--that I've never heard.. They also are very resolving and spacious.

I'm still waiting for a few inexpensive parts for the Allnics, and I'm anxious to hear them..  Almost bought ANOTHER pair today!  My late, loving wife called me Mr. Excess for good reason.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Sep 2022, 12:08 am
Have REdecided NOT to buy the 120VAC H-6000s in Virginia since I already have a pair (of 230VAC versions) and I now do not wish to pursue the Emission Labs 300Bs, which, with a filament-suppy-resistor change, makes the A-6000s' max power 60 Watts.. Will send my pair to Sonic Craft for repair and upgrades.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245174)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 1 Oct 2022, 07:27 pm
Have REdecided NOT to buy the 120VAC H-6000s in Virginia since I already have a pair (of 230VAC versions) and I now do not wish to pursue the Emission Labs 300Bs, which, with a filament-suppy-resistor change, makes the A-6000s' max power 60 Watts.. Will send my pair to Sonic Craft for repair and upgrades.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245174)

Well, times change, along with my alleged mind.. Have ordered a 'ten-tet' of EML 300B-XLSs from Jacmusic; the matched set of 10 cost US$4125 airmailed to me.

Another GEA-friend heard my system last nite and agreed that it did indeed sound better with the Auroras than with the A-S MA-1s which he had heard maybe 2 weeks ago.   :)
 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 8 Oct 2022, 07:29 am
WAHOO!!!! Got the Allnic A-6000s running.. My goodbuddy and I replaced a bunch of resistors and the amps run and sound quite good for not being run for months.. Will be burning them in for maybe a hundred hours.. They're running now with no NFB.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245387)

Probably will size the coupling caps for an HP filter point of around 50Hz; I've never used an HP filter on the panels except with a 250WPC poweramp.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: morganc on 8 Oct 2022, 04:50 pm
Those look great.  I love the Allnic house sound. Can’t  wait to hear your impressions of these. 
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 15 Oct 2022, 04:25 am
...
Probably will size the coupling caps for an HP filter point of around 50Hz; I've never used an HP filter on the panels except with a 250WPC poweramp.


Decided not to do that and will be using the Miflex KPCUs in original values of 1uF/600VDC; we'll get them in somehow.

Have sort of bit the cost-bullet and ordered two long ICs (3M and 5M) of Audioquest Dragon for the main pre/pro-to-poweramps run.. Then will move my current, excellent, Neotec UP-OCC-silver cable to the centerchannel amp (all XLRs) and have better AQ cable--Yosemite--coming for the Magneplanar DWM (Dipole Woofer Module, a two-channel system), now driven by one of the stereo modules of my Emotiva 11-channel poweramp.. Also coming are short AQ Dragon high-current powercables for the Allnics and the PS Audio P20 power regenerator.

The Emission Lab 300B-XLSs still aren't here.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: bernardo on 10 Nov 2022, 05:45 pm
Jeff

Your 10 Sep 2022 post mentioned "incoming AudioKinesis stereo SWARM subwoofer-system amps."

Just wondering if you have received it yet. Any impressions?
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 11 Nov 2022, 01:43 am
Jeffrey

Your 10 Sep 2022 post mentioned "incoming AudioKinesis stereo SWARM subwoofer-system amps."

Just wondering if you have received it yet. Any impressions?

No; the cabinet company lost its foreman, so the whole system is about a month away.. That system, BTW, is a stereo system with 3 boxes per channel.
Also, the 300B-XLSs have been here and running for a month or so but are yet not burned in.  That tentet arrived in a relatively huge carton, very safely.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Nov 2022, 06:28 pm
We've done the swarm configuration with our servo subs at several shows.

No need for additional subs up front though. Just add a pair of sealed box servo subs tot he back of the room in each corner.

The results were fantastic.
Title: BEST SOUND ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: jeffreybehr on 28 Nov 2022, 09:34 pm
Every once in a while--maybe once per year, when the sun and the moon and all the other planets and stars...and my nasal congestion...and my hearingaids, etc., are aligned--I find that my music-reproduction system sounds better than ever.. This Saturday evening, it happened again, and I have to write that the system sounded better than it EVER has in about 65 years of being an audiofool.. The music was Edward Elgar's Organ Sonata, o. 28 (orchestrated by Gordon Jacobs), with Richard Hickox conducting the BBC National O. of Wales and recorded by Chandos (in multichannel, of course) and released on SACD CHSA 5049..  BEST...EVER.

Frontend is still an Oppo '203 discplayer driving via HDMI my Marantz '8805 pre/pro.  Mid-fi?  Maybe..  Backend is still the Super-7s with their humble AQ GO-4 speakercables.

Changes in my system from the last best-ever event?  Surely the biggest difference is the return of my significantly improved Atma-Sphere MA-1 v.3.1 poweramps but this time with more main-PS-caps bypassing and also after replacing a few slightly noisy output tubes.*  Other changes are the inclusion of AudioQuest's best interconnects, Dragon balanced (XLRs)..  These 3- and 5-meter singles are quite expensive, but now I know that they're worth every penny.

I've been experimenting with several SETs recently--see earlier notes--but I'll be selling them soon.
.

* I use Russian Winged-C 6H13Cs and in the frontend a mix of Tung-Sol round-plate and BRIMAR curved-plate 6SN7GTs/CV1988s.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: corndog71 on 6 Dec 2022, 05:36 pm
https://youtu.be/9Ao_taobq44 (https://youtu.be/9Ao_taobq44)
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: jeffreybehr on 21 Mar 2023, 07:15 pm

Sad to write...my Super-7s are for sale.. These are one pair of the original 20 (?) and in silver and black.. MUCH-improved x-overs and includes a complete rewiring loom of UPOCC SILVER conductors made by Sonic Craft.. Pls PM me if you're interested.
Title: Re: The OFFICIAL Super-7 thread
Post by: Jaytor on 21 Mar 2023, 07:24 pm
I heard the Super-7s at CaptainHemo's place. These are really nice speakers.