Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

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neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #620 on: 11 Jun 2014, 11:35 pm »
Apparently no or virtually no EQ. 

"Frequency response DC-70kHz with only 10° of phase shift in the audio band (rumble filter built in @ 12 Hz - passive type before single flat gain stage"
"High Compliance design and freedom from low frequency saturation assures excellent tracking ability and performance with any tone arm"
"Low tracking forces with extreme precision"

"Attempts made in the distant past to absolutely correct Strain Gauge cartridges for any amplitude anomaly have required equalization circuits, which not only add circuitry, but also introduce phase or time shifts. It is the Soundsmith’s belief that human hearing is much more forgiving of amplitude errors than time errors, so we have made minimal efforts to correct for any amplitude deviation from absolute flatness."

Cool, it's back to amplitude vs phase.  My question is, do all SG carts have the same natural amplitude error?   Lets look at the test report.   :sad:
BTW, tracking is reported to be excellent. 
neo

http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/StrainGaugedetails.html

J-Pak

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #621 on: 12 Jun 2014, 03:26 am »
The SG has been packed away for a few years  - I had only just started using it when it developed a channel imbalance - I have a feeling that the problem is in the phono stage but I have not gotten back to it since....

It seemed to track fine, given that I always check the tracking when setting up a cartridge, I am quite sure I tested it - but I don't recall the results.... I am sure it wasn't a poor tracker (otherwise it would have stuck in my mind) - but how good I just don't remember.
I consider a reasonable tracker to be one that manages the third track - and a good tracker manages the fourth track on the HFN test record. Doing only the first track is a poor tracker... fail - managing the second track is a scrape through pass.

Like I said I would love to get some measurements done on the SS SG.... Given that the native behaviour of SG's has a rising top end, I would love to know how he tames that - or whether he just lets it through?

I will have to look for that 4th track, I thought there were only 3 (third is the last band on one of the sides). I read one comment saying the Panasonic 450 was a poor tracker (AudioKarma forum) and maybe one other on VinylEngine.

Here is Dave Slagle's plot of the 450



He builds a custom gain stage for the Panasonic 450 and has two filters to get them closer to RIAA. He prefers the sound with no filters.

Here is a review of the Soundsmith SG: http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/soundsmith-sg-200-pound;5200/7596/

Hifi News usually do measurements and there is a link to some sort of measurements on that third party link. But it asks me for a login/password when I try to download.

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #622 on: 12 Jun 2014, 06:58 am »
Yeah you need to email them to gain access - not a big deal though....

The F/R plot is a LOT flatter than the Panasonics. With what looks like a slight resonance at around 14kHz... (marked also by a substantive reduction in seperation at that point... a common marker of cantilever resonance - but what it means for an SG I am not sure)

If that is really achieved without EQ or excess damping - it is very impressive.

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #623 on: 12 Jun 2014, 11:49 am »
Our moderator Woodsyi has or had a SS SG. 

Some people reading this thread (present company excluded) might not be aware of another one around 2 yrs ago.  Peter Ledermann showed up and it was interesting if not revelatory. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106777.0

neo

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #624 on: 12 Jun 2014, 12:58 pm »
Present company INCLUDED - I seem to have missed that thread!

PL's responses here and on VE, although infrequent, have always been polite, informative and to the point....

Both he and J.Carr deserve a lot of respect for the way they respond on forums.... and their products.

J-Pak

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #625 on: 12 Jun 2014, 04:28 pm »
In the TAS review, the reviewer says

"the preamp which is integral to the process, delivers a current that flows through the silicon crystals"

Peter says nothing in the follow up to correct him.

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #626 on: 13 Jun 2014, 01:12 am »
Still looking for old test reports. 
David, this might interest you.  D V Karat Diamond collection:

http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/Cataloghi/Altri%20marchi/Dynavector%20-%20Moving%20Coil%20Cartridge%20Test%20Reports%20and%20Reviews.pdf


dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #627 on: 13 Jun 2014, 02:53 am »
In the TAS review, the reviewer says

"the preamp which is integral to the process, delivers a current that flows through the silicon crystals"

Peter says nothing in the follow up to correct him.

Well... , a strain gauge is a powered cartridge... it does need current to operate....

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #628 on: 18 Jun 2014, 01:37 pm »
Here's a PDF with 2 cart amplitude response.  VDH Grasshopper, CA Concerto
Also some measurements on a few others:

http://www.highend.cz/old/productpages/clearaudio/testy/2006-09ConcertoGrasshopperHiFiNews.pdf

neo

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #629 on: 23 Jun 2014, 01:33 pm »
Clearaudio has a resonant peak at 10kHz !!

And this is a top flight high end MC......  :o

Also the distortion peak at 5kHz is clearly indicating something else is going on as well....

The restrained amplitude of the 10kHz peak seems to indicate substantial damping - not usually a sonically positive indication - although essential for any cartridge with a resonance that low in frequency.

If that chart is to be trusted - and the resonance is not due to something else - then it indicates a very high (relatively) effective mass - and given the relative fineness of the cantilever, I would have to suspect some fairly porky coils.... so much for the supposed ultra low mass of MC's.


The Vdh is better - the resonance is now somewhere around 17kHz - putting it on a par with designs like the AT440MLa - again the amplitude seems to indicate substantial damping - but it has the substantial benefit of leaving most of the frequency range below 12kHz intact....
Again there is quite a nasty distortion peak before the resonance - I am wondering whether this distortion peak is a side effect of heavy damping needed to control the resonance?

Would be interesting to see the plots for the other carts in that group test...

I own a close relative to the Vdh reviewed here - an earlier generation Empire MC1 - with boron cantilever - the resonance is around 25kHz amplitude max is +4.5db - making it a LOT flatter through the audio range - it never worked well in the ultra low mass Revox - but it sounds very good on the mid to mid-heavy JVC...
The Grasshopper seems to be fitted with an Aluminium cantilever - so the resonance does make sense...
I vaguelly remember paying circa AU$1000 in the late 80's for my Boron cantilever eliptical tip high output MC1. Empire, Benz and Vdh were at the time sharing bodies and core engines.... it is unclear how different the various related Empire/Benz/VdH versions were other than needle shapes - the VdH got the VdH needle on which they built their rep, where the Empire had the eliptical (and was a lot cheaper).

At UKP2000 the grasshopper does not seem to me to be great value compared to Ortofon OM40, AT150MLx, Nag. M500, etc....

EDIT:
Just had another look at my measurements of the Empire/Benz/Vdh MC1 - from 1kHz to 20kHz it is -0.5db and +1db - which is rather excellent by any measure...
And yet this cartridge mounted in the Revox put me off vinyl for years - matching mass to compliance is massively underestimated as a factor in performance!

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #630 on: 23 Jun 2014, 10:20 pm »
Hi David,
I was beginning to wonder if anyone looked at those old lab tests.  This one's from '06 - fairly recent.  The Clearaudio was 1700 pounds.  At todays exchange rate that's almost $2900.  They said it is voiced for rock and the criticism was, it's not airy enough.  I guess not.   :roll:
Concerto seems like a funny name for a rock cart, but that's marketing. 

The lab test said the tip was misaligned which resulted in cantilever VTA being off 10° and the separation was screwed up.  Response was off 6 or 7dB by 20KHz and falling like a rock, so in that respect I guess it is a rock cart.  Maybe the misaligned tip would explain some of the amplitude response and azimuth error could cause separation problems and the nonsense at 5K ?  But I would think high frequency resonance would be unaffected. 
If I plunked down nearly 3 large on one of those, I think I might be disappointed.

I don't know what to make of the Grasshopper III.  That was available with different compliances and apparently they got a low cu one and tracked it at 1.5g.  I'm not sure that 2dB shelf at 12K is resonance.  The graph ends at 20K but response is off 8dB at 50K  ??

My buddy had the original Grasshopper on his Goldmund Reference.  That had more of a medium mass arm and I think the cart tracked at 1.8g or close to that.  Its sound was pretty damn good, but the table might have had something to do with that.  :wink:
neo

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #631 on: 24 Jun 2014, 06:41 am »
My Empire/Benz MC1 also tracks at around 1.8g for good results...  seems about the right VTF for most of the VDH & Benz carts...

Luckydogs recent polar analysis of pitch/speed on AK seems to indicate that most halfway decent TT's are fine - the real difference ends up being arm stability / damping !

So as long as there is a decent bearing with low noise/rumble - the focus seems to then need to shift to the arm, and LF damping is the critical bit - once that is right, then you can start looking at subtleties....

So table quality may not be the essential ingredient!

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #632 on: 24 Jun 2014, 12:23 pm »
My Empire/Benz MC1 also tracks at around 1.8g for good results...  seems about the right VTF for most of the VDH & Benz carts...

Luckydogs recent polar analysis of pitch/speed on AK seems to indicate that most halfway decent TT's are fine - the real difference ends up being arm stability / damping !

So as long as there is a decent bearing with low noise/rumble - the focus seems to then need to shift to the arm, and LF damping is the critical bit - once that is right, then you can start looking at subtleties....

So table quality may not be the essential ingredient!

As John Wayne once said, "Contrare mon seur". 

It's all relative.  Yes, half decent tables are fine, but decent tables are better, and great tables are better yet.   :thumb:

Luckydog identified parameters to maximize performance and I'm not denying this valuable contribution.  On the other hand, I don't think you would deny ultimate performance gains by having better speed stability, more massive platter, better bearings, superior arm isolation and energy dissipation, etc. etc. 

Put a great arm/cart on a half decent table and it should sound good.  Put that same arm/cart on a great table and it should sound amazing.

neo


dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #633 on: 24 Jun 2014, 01:36 pm »
I certainly accept that there are gains to be made, it is just a question of diminishing returns....

The old Pareto ratio always applies.... It takes 20% of the effort to get 80% of the way to the perfect 100% completion.... and then the same 80/20 rule applies to the remaining and so it goes....

Same with costs in audio equipment... and performance!

Identifying the key factors the way LD tends to do is hugely valuable in focusing in on the 80% improvements that can be achieved for 20% of the effort....

There are many examples of the 80/20 effect especially in vinyl!

Platform/Isolation is always a quick easy simple one (unless you happen to have a high end TT with it all already engineered into it!)
Cartridge / arm matching - another simple and easy win
Fluid damping ( or it's equivalents)

Obviously speed stability is of great value - but there are examples of economical classic tables with excellent speed stability without getting stratospheric in price, and the link between pitch/speed stability and arm damping - along with the observation that W&F with a record/arm/cartridge is a very different beast to W&F "at the platter" ....

You can have a mega-heavy platter, perfectly balanced, but if the cart/arm aren't matched properly and the arm (or entire setup to be more correct) lacks damping - you will never get a piano to sound right on it!

Gusten's contributions are valuable too - he has achieved a top performing TT, based on starting with a basic SL1200mk2 - the beast looks horrendously ugly - a true frankenstein's monster! - but it performs, as he has focused on the key aspects, and due to the DIY nature of his efforts the cost is relatively negligible. (the time he has spent on it however is not negligible at all!!)

Some of the Boston Audio society articles from the 70's all point in similar directions - including the famous edition with the "paperclip" fluid damper....

I have been somewhat torn between two vues of optimisation for compliance matching of arm and cartridge...

Peter Pritchard, stated in the 70's (when his designs were coming out with compliances of 40 to 50 cu...) that his target resonance was 6Hz....
Obviously this would work best in a properly damped system (as the resonance bell curve would definitely overlap the warp zone, and no records are perfectly flat), and also required a well isolated turntable (footfall and other environmental LF vibrations would also overlap with the resonance bell...).

The more traditional 10Hz target puts one equally distant (1 octave) from the danger zone at the low end (5Hz) and the start of the Audio spectrum (20Hz) - with judicious application of damping and isolation I would have thought that this would still be optimum.

But then there is Peter Pritchards - 6Hz resonance frequency target!? - Was that a compromise, accepting that most arms were too heavy to do better? - Or was there something else going on!?

The ADC SuperXLM (40cu) sounds great on the (damped) JVC, with resonance down at around 5Hz.... even fitted to the super low mass Revox only lifts the resonance to all of 7.5Hz (have not listened to it on the Revox)

A compliance that high forces the setup to work with a low low resonance frequency - so all the other aspects of the system have to be optimised so as to minimise the LF negatives....
But then there are the clarity and dynamic gains of a low mass and low damping cantilever setup.....

Are the mid compliance majority just plain wrong? (the MC1 does sound good, but I seem to prefer the higher compliance lower damping designs...)

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #634 on: 24 Jun 2014, 07:09 pm »
I certainly accept that there are gains to be made, it is just a question of diminishing returns....

The old Pareto ratio always applies.... It takes 20% of the effort to get 80% of the way to the perfect 100% completion.... and then the same 80/20 rule applies to the remaining and so it goes....

Same with costs in audio equipment... and performance!

Identifying the key factors the way LD tends to do is hugely valuable in focusing in on the 80% improvements that can be achieved for 20% of the effort....

Whoooa there buckaroo.  You're applying the Pareto principle to diminishing returns and proving what, economics is a joke?  Statistical analysis says that 80% of audiofools think they have a great table and 20% think they will have a great table someday.  Maybe I got that wrong and should reverse the numbers? 

For those not familiar with this esoterica,  Pareto found that 20% of his bean or pea plants produced 80% of the crop.  That's about it.  Now this principle is applied to just about everything, only the ratio changes according to facts.  Perhaps in Italy 20% of the people control 80% of the money, but in the US 2% of the people control 98% of the money.  Those figures might be off a little.  I have no idea about Italy, it's just where Pareto lived.  In the US those figures are close.  A tiny portion of the population controls almost all the money.

Diminishing returns - If I apply a small amount of fertilizer I get much better crops, but if I apply even more fertilizer my return is only slightly greater.

Diminishing returns + Pareto - If I apply 20% of my bag of fertilizer I get 80% more crops, but if I apply 80% of the bag I get nothing because I've burned the crap out of them. 

Lets try that again - If I apply 20% of the bag I get 80% more, and if I use 22% I get 84% more, but if I apply 30% then I get nothing.  I thought percentages are supposed to add up to 100.  If it goes over 100 it's a multiple.  What's 30% times zero?

I have to go right now.  In the words of Arnold, "Ill be back".
neo

 

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #635 on: 25 Jun 2014, 01:00 am »
Methinks this thread has meandered far enough to allow a digression via Pareto....

But I infer from your last post a certain distaste for rules of thumb?

The Pareto principle is very useful in all sorts of places and ways.... Not so much as a "hard" statistical measure but as an often close to the "hard truth" rule of thumb.... The 80/20....

80% of professionals are just in it for the money, 20% care about their work and clients.... Always try to hire the 20 and avoid the 80....  My own most useful variation of the Pareto rule of thumb!

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #636 on: 25 Jun 2014, 10:49 am »
I thought I might have gotten back to this thread before you could respond, but alas, it was not to be.  In an ultimate sense I think it's kind of silly sticking to a fixed ratio for a "universal" principle like this, but the concept seems valid for all kinds of applications.  On the other hand you might want to look at Murphy's law or the Peter principle.  I hadn't thought of that before, but it might have greater humor potential.

Murphy's law - Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Peter principle - In a business or organization people will be promoted to their level of incompetence. 

If you hire or attempt to hire exclusively from the 20% of workers that care about work/clients, then your work force will no longer adhere to the 80/20 ratio of those that don't care vs. those that do.  This situation will be rectified by Peter Murphy.  As your work force is promoted to their level of incompetence (a great sales person might be a lousy sales supervisor) they will eventually stop caring so much and might even look for another less challenging position, or one they're qualified for.  Thus Murphy's law and the Peter principle have restored the natural order of things to the work force and proven that Pareto was right all along.
neobop tillyoudrop


neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #637 on: 25 Jun 2014, 11:37 am »
Regarding the rest of it:

Platform/Isolation is always a quick easy simple one (unless you happen to have a high end TT with it all already engineered into it!)
Cartridge / arm matching - another simple and easy win
Fluid damping ( or it's equivalents)   +1

Obviously speed stability is of great value - but there are examples of economical classic tables with excellent speed stability without getting stratospheric in price, and the link between pitch/speed stability and arm damping - along with the observation that W&F with a record/arm/cartridge is a very different beast to W&F "at the platter" ....  agreed

You can have a mega-heavy platter, perfectly balanced, but if the cart/arm aren't matched properly and the arm (or entire setup to be more correct) lacks damping - you will never get a piano to sound right on it!  True, but if you have the same situation with a tinfoil platter nothing will sound right.

Gusten's contributions are valuable too - he has achieved a top performing TT, based on starting with a basic SL1200mk2 - the beast looks horrendously ugly - a true frankenstein's monster! - but it performs, as he has focused on the key aspects, and due to the DIY nature of his efforts the cost is relatively negligible. (the time he has spent on it however is not negligible at all!!)  Of course I haven't heard Gusten's table, but no doubt the 1200 has great potential, but it depends on what you consider "top".  It will never be an SP10Mk3 or an L-07D will it?

Some of the Boston Audio society articles from the 70's all point in similar directions - including the famous edition with the "paperclip" fluid damper....
you can buy a ready made trough at KAB and adapt it for most any pivoting arm set-up.  John TCG made one out of tinfoil and used a paperclip. Most people have a tendency to overdamp with these so one should listen for dull lifeless sound then back off.

I have been somewhat torn between two vues of optimisation for compliance matching of arm and cartridge...

Peter Pritchard, stated in the 70's (when his designs were coming out with compliances of 40 to 50 cu...) that his target resonance was 6Hz....
Obviously this would work best in a properly damped system (as the resonance bell curve would definitely overlap the warp zone, and no records are perfectly flat), and also required a well isolated turntable (footfall and other environmental LF vibrations would also overlap with the resonance bell...).

The more traditional 10Hz target puts one equally distant (1 octave) from the danger zone at the low end (5Hz) and the start of the Audio spectrum (20Hz) - with judicious application of damping and isolation I would have thought that this would still be optimum.

But then there is Peter Pritchards - 6Hz resonance frequency target!? - Was that a compromise, accepting that most arms were too heavy to do better? - Or was there something else going on!?

The ADC SuperXLM (40cu) sounds great on the (damped) JVC, with resonance down at around 5Hz.... even fitted to the super low mass Revox only lifts the resonance to all of 7.5Hz (have not listened to it on the Revox)

A compliance that high forces the setup to work with a low low resonance frequency - so all the other aspects of the system have to be optimised so as to minimise the LF negatives....
But then there are the clarity and dynamic gains of a low mass and low damping cantilever setup.....

Are the mid compliance majority just plain wrong? (the MC1 does sound good, but I seem to prefer the higher compliance lower damping designs...)

I have to get some breakfast.  The rest is an interesting discussion and deserves more than a rushed response.  Be back shortly.
neo

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #638 on: 25 Jun 2014, 12:05 pm »
 :D
and at 10pm here, I am about to hit the sac....

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #639 on: 25 Jun 2014, 01:52 pm »
Peter Pritchard and 6Hz target resonance - taking high compliance to its logical conclusion.  I suspect that was a performance principle.  It could be seen as a reaction to the popular trend going in the other direction, but I don't think so.  A 50cu cart weighing 5.5g will only hit the traditional target resonance (8 - 12Hz) on one arm that I know of, a Black Widow with 2g eff mass.  Some Widows were heavier and probably don't qualify.  Pritchards own arm, the Sonus Formula 4 has eff mass of 4.1g and with a Sonus Blue should resonate at < 7Hz.  Obviously this was by design.

If we look at the consequences of missing the 8 - 12Hz target, the only proven negative one on the low side is warp tracking considerations or possible mechanical/acoustic feedback.  Going in the other direction could have dire consequences with intermodulation distortion.  Where you get into SQ trouble is with a low cu cart on a light arm.  So I think it's safe to say that if res is on the low side and there is no problem with tracking or isolation, it should work okay, but is it optimal?

I think that depends on the particular arm/cart combo.  We know of people using med/high cu carts on relatively heavy arms with reportedly good results.  My results with mostly ATs (18cu)  seem to sound a little sluggish on a heavy arm, but it also seems to vary with different arms.  With such a combo fluid damping might make SQ worse.  Although you'd lower res peak you'd also impede the arm bearings which could have greater consequences.

Lets talk about modern carts next time.  I guess that would be later for me or tomorrow for you.
neo