[Grbluen]

Neo,
Sorry, I wasn't being unresponsive, but had to change phones yesterday and I couldn't communicate.
My JMW-9 arm is only 7.7 grams and it might not be the best match for the 440mla. That was the reason for the pointed questions in the other thread. I've taken your advice regarding the input capacitance, and it really makes a difference!
Grb

[dlaloum]

Hmmm - With an aluminium cantilever you have reduced rigidity and increased mass, it flexes more - this leads to a slight upper midrange trough in the signal reproduced....

The lost energy is however maintained (physics rules!) and pops up as increased harmonic distortion - being harmonic it can subjectively "enhance" the sound.... (I believe it also tends towards even harmonics)

Aluminium cantilevers do tend to be more "romantic"

I would need to analyse one of the Jico/LPgear Shibata/VL styli to work out what exactly is going on - but I suspect that the cantilever resonance is at a lower frequency as compared to the 440MLa, and that the frequency at which the MLa resonance happens is one that you find more objectionable.

I do now have an Aurum body and an AT95HE - unfortunately the S-arm tables are all in storage and these beasties will not be happy in my Revox arm.... so the experiment will have to wait.
Maybe I need to order myself one of the AT92 HE/VL styli.... I have a feeling they are the exact same cantilever in a higher compliance suspension.... the resonant frequency should be the same...

I have already measure the MLa stylus - and I strongly recommend lowering the R loading a tad (somewhere between 35k and 42k) - it really does bring that resonance into line.

Getting back to the cantilevers - some of the lower end AT's (3472 and others) use the carbon fibre cantilever - Jonathan Carr made the comment that he did not like the sound of CF cantilevers....
I wonder whether the CF results in the harmonics being shifted more into the odds as opposed to the even harmonics of the Aluminium....
In theory the CF should be competitive with the exotics - in practice there are very few better cartridges that use it. (The Nagaoka JT555 is an exception I think)

Those cantilevers/styli are so economical however that it may be worth experimenting with them at negligible cost.

Interesting thread on CF cantilevers here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=11676

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Dongrb,
7.7g arm should be a near perfect match for the stylus, depending somewhat on cart weight.  "They" say maintaining compliance with a transplant is dependent on pressure applied to the rubber donut when securing the compliance screw.  I disagree.  A minimal amount of pressure has to be maintained to get a snug fit and it seems to me a new stylus is just that.  I don't think AT or Jico, whoever, varies insertion pressure to maintain compliance.  Springiness is built into the cantilever assembly and the donut is damping.
neo

[griffithds]

Hi David,

I do have the Dynavector on my radar, but I have never tried a Strain Gauge.  Too many cartridges and not enough time! (grin)
I see those Panasonic pre's on ebay from time to time.  They are not cheap but what is these days.
I noticed in a following thread that you would like to try the Jico Shibata and the Vivid Line from LP Tunes.  If you are serious, I am willing to loan you both of mine.  I also have the Sound Smith Level 1 ellipitical I could also send.  Do not refuse due to fear of damaging them.  I understand that sh*t happens so we would chalk it up to cost of investigative reporting!  (grin)
There is an Italian dealer that bought up a collection of NOS cartridges from a widow (husband died),  located in Rome.  I bought the following M/C's from him so I am rather busy at the moment breaking them in so you would be able to keep the Clear Audio transplants for as long as needed.
Five of the M/C's I bought are 1) Ortofon MC 2000, 2) Klipsch MCZ 10 R, 3) Shinon Red Boron Improved, 4) Krell KC 100 (Miyabi Standard), 5) Denon DL 305
They were not going for bargain prices but normal (ha, ha,), market value.  Considering that they were NOS, not eBay used, I did and still do feel that this was like stumbling into a gold mine. Number 1 and number 4 will take your breath away.  I have thought that I had  reached a level where my equipment was my limiting factor because I just could not get my system to rise above a certain performance level.  The Ortofon and the Miyabi have demonstrated that it wasn't the plateau that my equipment was at that needed to be elevated but it was the plateau that my cartridges were at. 
In addition to a Dynavector, I am also looking for a Kieski.  Either a Black or Purple Heart or a Gold Spot, but it is tax time, so I need to wait a bit to recoup some finances. (grin)
BTW:  Send me your address and I will send you the 3 transplants.  They are all in trimmed housings so all you will have to do is 'pop' them in! Yes, I imagine you also have time constraints, but like I said, no rush!
Cheers,
Don

[griffithds]

Hi Neo,

It is not you that need to be excused,  it is I.  The wording 'favorite' was not the best word to describe my thoughts. 
In regards to the London.  To be honest with you, it is hard to concentrate on detail 'because' of the dynamics.  It is so
alive sounding that it is hard to do anything but be amazed!  Drum whacks just jump out of the speakers. It is really rather
startling and it does take a long time to get over the  (I want to go back to the London Jubilee),  feeling when I force myself to continue
rotating my harem! After extended time with the Jubilee, everything else just sounds flat?
I have been running it at 47K.  My next setting down in my phono stage is 10K.  I have bought one of those DB Systems Resistive Loading Kits but they are from
20 ohm up to just 200 ohm.  It does come with  2 empty spare plugs for user experimenting so I have bought a pair of 32K resistors.  I bought
them to load a Grado Signature 8M I got cheap.  That load is suppose to work wonders with that Grado.
You made a comment in regards to the 3472 P.  If I'm understanding you correctly, are you  are saying that the 3472 P is a Vivid Line?   I thought it
was an elliptical?  I have/had one of those cut down but sent it to a friend in The Netherlands (Nikola), when he mentioned needing a new stylus for
his Virturoso. If it is a Vivid Line then Damn, I let that one get through my fingers.  I must admit though, it did sound good! I bought that based on notes that I have been keeping from you and David.  Found it on eBay!
Your comment to Dongrb in regards to the compliance issue and the donuts.  I have always thought that the donuts were of different compositions. Some stiffer and some softer. That is where (I think), the 'compliance' is created. In the material itself.  Anyway, how would it be possible to measure pressure applied to a donut when the cantilever is being installed? I agree with you that it is just a snug fit, then tighten the screw!
Regards
Don

[neobop]

Hi Griff,
Nice stuff!!

Isn't the DB systems loading plugs, put the RCAs in parallel with the 47K default of your preamp?  If so, use a parallel resistance calculator to figure out the value for the desired load.  For instance, 47K with 100K nets 32K.  That's why I previously said that 47K with 400K nets 42K.   Like this:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm

Check out LpGear 3472 series.  Page 2 has Vivid Line.
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?

There's even a 3472ML in the AT listings.  It seems a little steep at $150 for a bonded ML on a straight alum cantilever.  I was thinking about it but an MLa is $125 so it doesn't make much sense.
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neo,

I would seriously like you to explain this parallel resistance calculation.   My phono stage with all dip switches off, is 47K. There are 3 dip switches labeled 100, 1000, and 10000. The 4 one is empty and allows the user to install his own resistors.  The M/M side (capacitance), is 100, 470, 1000, and the 4th one is also user install-able.
If all dip switch when off are 47K, then to flip dip switch #1 to on and get a 100 ohms load as  a result,  what value resistor has to, or should I say, is in place to be in place to obtain this number 100?
What resistor would have to be run in parallel with the 47K to have obtained the 1000 or the 10000 load?  I have used that calculator that you posted but I do not either trust my findings, or just plain don't understand whats happening.  A little clarity into this crystal ball  would be very much appreciated.  I have been told that I can (add) the dip switches (loads), to come up with settings other than the 100,1000, and 10000.  The term 'add' is what I have seen stated, but I don't think 'adding' (1+1=2), is really what should be done.  How about helping an ageing old man get his head around this. (grin)  Thanks Neo
Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Hi Griff,
What phono stage are you using?  Do you have the manual?

It sounds like you might have a direct value plug-in (#4).  If that's the case then you had it right in the first place.  When you said DB systems I thought you were using a parallel resistance kit.  Maybe we can figure it out with the model/and or manual.  If it has additive capability by pushing multiple switches (possible) it's probably only for the MC section.  But I'm guessing. 

For ATs and most MM/MI use the 100pF setting for capacitance.  That could even be a bit much with most cables - their capacitance gets added in. Here's a link for some 50pF caps:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_silvermica.html

Didn't mean to throw you a curve, but as long as we're here it's good to understand how it works. 

This is the correct link for the 3472 styli. 
http://www.lpgear.com/category/LPG.html

BTW, I have a 3400 spherical stylus with a carbon fiber cantilever.  This is the stock 3400.  I have it wingless and tried it in my 95 and Virtuoso.  I was thinking of using it for mono records.  To be honest it sounds pretty bad.  I have some nice Japanese mono jazz LPs and they deserve better. 
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neo,

My main phono stage is the BAT VK-10SE with the 6 pac option.    I do have the manual and  I do have the parallel resistance kit from db but I have not used it.  I have a couple of cartridges that ask for 30 ohm loads, so I though I would try this db kit and load them at 30 instead of my minumum setting of 100 per the BAT. Knowing that this kit also has 2 empty plugs, I thought I would also try the 32K load that is recommended for the Grado Signiture 8M.  Like I said, I have not tried this resistance kit.  I decided I want to understand first just what was going on with these various settings. 
If I was to solder a 32K ohm resistor in the empty plug from db, and inserted it in line with my phono cables at the input location on the BAT VK-10, I would assume that I have loaded the installed cartridge at 32K.  With this calculation formula, I do not know if this is true or not. 
In the manual, this is what is stated. **********

Cartridge loading switches

Resistance:

The 47K load resistor is permanently connected to the cartridge input.  If a different loading value is desired, it can be obtained by switching in additional resistors, installed on the VK-10 PC board.  This is accomplished by using the two DIP switches, (S101) and (S202), that allow multiple choices for resistive and capacitive cartridge loading.  Four positions are reserved for the choice of resistance and four for capacitance.  Out of each group of four, one position is loaded with female pins and allows the user to install any desired value component (this position is marked "USER").  Gold plated solderable pins are supplied with the VK-10 accessory kit, that should be attached to either resistor or capacitors supplied by the user.

The following resistors can be added in parallel with the 47K load.

     Switch position          Resistor Value
      1                                100 Ohm
      2                                1K
      3                                10K
      4                                 User-Defined

Any parallel combination of the these values is also allowable.


Capacitance:

Various values of capacitance can be connected in parallel to the input via switches (S101 and S102).
With these switches in the OFF position, there is no capacitive loading to the cartridge.
The capacitance choices include:

     Switch         Capacitor Value
      5                  100pF
      6                  470pF
      7                  1000pF
      8                  User-Defined

Any possible combination of these values is also allowable.

**********Neo, the above is word for word out of my manual.  The switches 1 thru 8 are dip switches.  Thanks for helping me tackle
this mysterious 'Voodoo'! (grin)

Regards,
Don

[Grbluen]

Neo, I hate to disagree with you but my experience suggests that the 'damper' must be compressed when the cantilever is installed. The cantilever 'spring' isn't capable of providing the kind of resistance as suggested. It is helpful to think of this spring as hair-like.  I believe the 'spring' only serve to maintain the tension on the 'damper'. I'm starting to wonder about these compliance figures and the associated effective masses.  It may be that it is time for a fresh look. I must mention that the 7 hz figures are with the addition of mass at the headshell and at the pivot. It also includes the damping  using the silicone oil. 

[dlaloum]

Although there is "springiness" to the cantilever it is unrelated to the low frequency resonance, and is notable only in the midrange losses caused by its flexing.

By design it is intended to be as rigid as possible (no springiness) - and what flex there is to the cantilever is an imperfection/compromise caused by the realities of the limitations of available materials.

On AT styli, all the "springiness" at low frequencies (compliance related) is therefore completely down to the rubber (or perhaps more appropriately elastomer) "doughnut".

What is interesting is the discussion with regards to whether the screw is designed as a compression adjustment (and therefore a means of tweaking compliance) -or whether it is simply intended to keep the doughnut in place...

The reason the screw is there might be just to allow adjustment of the cantilever angle through rotation, something that may not be relevant to lower end styli, where it is not even fitted.

interesting

bye for now

David

[dlaloum]

Five of the M/C's I bought are 1) Ortofon MC 2000, 2) Klipsch MCZ 10 R, 3) Shinon Red Boron Improved, 4) Krell KC 100 (Miyabi Standard), 5) Denon DL 305

Lucky Lucky man - I have been hunting an original MC2000  (the V1 high compliance one!)   for a number of years without any luck.

The others have not been on my radar but if an opportunity like that cropped up I would probably grab them too!!

Last time someone lent me a stylus it took around 2 years for me to return it - not that I used it much, but serious listening and lab measurements both take a solid contiguous chunk of free time...

Whereas blowing hot air in forums online can be done in snippets taken from the day...

So my answer is yes I would love to investigate/get to know/listen to those styli - but only if you are OK with it taken a LONG time.

The birth of my son has turned from someone who was time rich, into someone who is time poor.... not that I am complaining!

bye for now

David

[griffithds]

Hi David,

I would have no problem with the wait.  I have far to many cartridges to play with and not having the Virtuoso in the mix would not even be missed. 
Do you only need the styli which is mounted in the plugs or do you also need the Virtuoso body? I have one each of the Red and the Black.
In regards to the MC-2000.  I believe there were only  2 models.  The original and then there was a model called the improved.  I was fortunate enought
to have found a NOS original. 
Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Hi Neo,

My main phono stage is the BAT VK-10SE with the 6 pac option.    I do have the manual and  I do have the parallel resistance kit from db but I have not used it.  I have a couple of cartridges that ask for 30 ohm loads, so I though I would try this db kit and load them at 30 instead of my minumum setting of 100 per the BAT. Knowing that this kit also has 2 empty plugs, I thought I would also try the 32K load that is recommended for the Grado Signiture 8M.  Like I said, I have not tried this resistance kit.  I decided I want to understand first just what was going on with these various settings. 
If I was to solder a 32K ohm resistor in the empty plug from db, and inserted it in line with my phono cables at the input location on the BAT VK-10, I would assume that I have loaded the installed cartridge at 32K.  With this calculation formula, I do not know if this is true or not. 
In the manual, this is what is stated. **********

Cartridge loading switches

Resistance:

The 47K load resistor is permanently connected to the cartridge input.  If a different loading value is desired, it can be obtained by switching in additional resistors, installed on the VK-10 PC board.  This is accomplished by using the two DIP switches, (S101) and (S202), that allow multiple choices for resistive and capacitive cartridge loading.  Four positions are reserved for the choice of resistance and four for capacitance.  Out of each group of four, one position is loaded with female pins and allows the user to install any desired value component (this position is marked "USER").  Gold plated solderable pins are supplied with the VK-10 accessory kit, that should be attached to either resistor or capacitors supplied by the user.

The following resistors can be added in parallel with the 47K load.

     Switch position          Resistor Value
      1                                100 Ohm
      2                                1K
      3                                10K
      4                                 User-Defined

Any parallel combination of the these values is also allowable.


Capacitance:

Various values of capacitance can be connected in parallel to the input via switches (S101 and S102).
With these switches in the OFF position, there is no capacitive loading to the cartridge.
The capacitance choices include:

     Switch         Capacitor Value
      5                  100pF
      6                  470pF
      7                  1000pF
      8                  User-Defined

Any possible combination of these values is also allowable.

**********Neo, the above is word for word out of my manual.  The switches 1 thru 8 are dip switches.  Thanks for helping me tackle
this mysterious 'Voodoo'! (grin)

Regards,
Don

Griff,
I'm sure that's a great sounding phono pre, but the instructions are terrible.  It says, "The 47K load resistor is permanently connected to the cartridge input.  If a different loading value is desired, it can be obtained by switching in additional resistors, installed on the VK-10 PC board."  From this we should assume that if a 32K load is desired you need 100K resistors in position 4 - all resistors or positions are in parallel with permanent 47K.

The following resistors can be added in parallel with the 47K load.

     Switch position          Resistor Value
      1                                100 Ohm
      2                                1K
      3                                10K
      4                                 User-

I take this to mean that in position 1, 100 ohms is in parallel with 47K.  In this case it doesn't matter much because this results in a load of 99.8 ohms.
You can engage multiple switches.  This matters slightly more.  If you engage all 3 switches you'll wind up with 89. 9 ohms.  If you want 30 ohms you should get 30 ohm resistors and use position 4.   Here's a multiple resistor calculator, it might come in handy for odd values or MM settings.
http://www.1728.org/resistrs.htm

Capacitance is different.  Values in parallel are additive.  It's hard to imagine using anything other than 100pF for a MM/MI out of the options they give you.  Maybe some people use it for MC?  Some HO carts might be better with more than 100pF, but first here's how it works.  The capacitance load is the total of your internal tonearm wire + cables + preamp input capacitance.  Most high end arms have < 30pF, but cables vary widely.  The recommendation of 50pF is to make allowances for internal wire and cables.

You might want to check with BAT to make sure I interpreted correctly.  They might make a great phono pre, but they're not very good with explaining how to use it. 
neo






 

 

[neobop]

Although there is "springiness" to the cantilever it is unrelated to the low frequency resonance, and is notable only in the midrange losses caused by its flexing.

By design it is intended to be as rigid as possible (no springiness) - and what flex there is to the cantilever is an imperfection/compromise caused by the realities of the limitations of available materials.

On AT styli, all the "springiness" at low frequencies (compliance related) is therefore completely down to the rubber (or perhaps more appropriately elastomer) "doughnut".

What is interesting is the discussion with regards to whether the screw is designed as a compression adjustment (and therefore a means of tweaking compliance) -or whether it is simply intended to keep the doughnut in place...

The reason the screw is there might be just to allow adjustment of the cantilever angle through rotation, something that may not be relevant to lower end styli, where it is not even fitted.

interesting

bye for now

David

David,
Compliance is springiness and you're saying it's unrelated to resonant frequency?  I beg to differ.

Cantilevers might be designed to be as rigid as possible, but they vary widely.  Differing length, weight, rigidity are all factors in compliance, and combined with arm/cart eff mass, determine low freq res.
neo

[dlaloum]

Yes resonant freq. and "springiness" are related.

But the cantilever's own inherent "springiness" is totally negligible - whereas the "springiness" of the rubber doughnut (sticking to the AT design for simplicity) is proportionally HUGE.

As you know, lower compliance (making the suspension "stiffer") raises the resonant frequency a low compliance cartridge in a low mass arm can have a resonance of above 20Hz - and still be using a rubber doughnut as its "suspension"

When you move from rubber doughnut to no doughnut (ie depend on the inherent springiness of the cantilever) - your resonant frequency will rise dramatically - it will be nowhere near the low frequency zone and may (should?) be well outside the audio range in the ultrasonic frequencies.

I have not worked through the physics but the math is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantilever
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law

Simple physics for the resonance of an aluminium rod (http://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys193/Lecture_Notes/Vibrating_Rod/Longitudinally_Vibrating_Singing_Rod.pdf) seems to indicate a calculated first resonance for a 0.007m rod of circa 357kHz...
But I think this is the wrong approach as we need to calculate the resonance generated by a cantilever which is a bit different (hence the first couple of links)... I may work that up in a spreadsheet later to see where it ends up.

The "spring" in a cantilever is in fact the rubber doughnut - the whole design of the cantilever is focused on being "non-springy" (rigid) - so we are talking a whole different order of magnitude in terms of the springiness and as a result in terms of the resonance....

The mathematical relationship between cantilever resonance and effective mass is relatively simple and does not involve the material of which the cantilever is made... but even the heaviest stylus cantilever calculates out to a resonance of several kHz...

To get a cantilever with a resonance in the sub sonic range, would require something of the hardness/springiness of a hair - which would not be much use as a stylus!

As an example consider the Stantering damping brushes - the flexing of the horsehair is used to damp the sub sonic resonance...

bye for now

David

[jmowbray]

Hi Don,

I will take a look to see whether it has a compliance screw.
The needle holder on these is not plastic but a solid chunk of metal, which screws into the body - so there is no question about a positive mating with the body!

I have a couple of these bodies with broken styli (intended for a retip at some point) - I will remove the stylus (stub) and look for a compliance screw....

Need to find them in my storage first...

bye for now

David

The Signet TK9/TK10 as well as the AT 22/23/24/25 stylus assemblies that I have all have compliance screws.

Jack

[dlaloum]

Given the current discussion, we may need to consider changing the terminology - compliance screw may be a misnomer

[griffithds]

Hi Neo,

It is good to know that it is not just me who's eyes are glazing over when he reads this BAT phono stage manual. (grin)
It didn't seem to matter how many times I read it, I still didn't understand what was being conveyed. 
That 99.8 ohm load number is also the number I came up with, but when I plugged in all 3 of the dip switch load numbers
and still came up with a number that was still basically the same as switch #1 (100 ohms),  that is when I began to doubt
that I had a grasp of what was going on.  I thought perhaps I was not using the calculations formula correctly.
Thanks for your help Neo.  It really is appreciated.

Best regards,
Don Griffith

[neobop]

David,
I think that view is incorrect.   If you remove the rubber donut completely the cart still retains compliance but loses damping.  How else could Ortofon play the MC200 without damping  in that phase paper?
"When you move from rubber doughnut to no doughnut (ie depend on the inherent springiness of the cantilever) - your resonant frequency will rise dramatically - it will be nowhere near the low frequency zone and may (should?) be well outside the audio range in the ultrasonic frequencies."
Have you done this?  Be specific please.  Some carts might use the rubber damper for compliance, especially those with no cantilever, but for most "conventional" carts I don't believe so.
 
Compliance isn't related to springiness, it is springiness.   What does cu x 10 6 cm/dyne mean? 
Dyne is a unit of force that is measured in centimeter per gram. This force is equal to the amount of force necessary to create the movement of one centimeter for each second, which is equal to one gram.  So we're talking about force necessary to create a small (x 10 6power) movement in a specific direction and measured at a specific freq.  In other words, flex. 
neo