Random thoughts from an audio show.

jaxwired · « **on:** 6 Mar 2010, 01:42 am »

Hi everyone. A good sized high end audio show is being held in my city this weekend and I've just returned from the day 1. Thought I'd share some of my impressions. Sorry, I forgot to bring my camera. I spent about 5 hours there and easily heard 20 systems. Many very expensive systems. Lots of tube equipment. Some of the brands names off the top of my head were: Krell, YG Acoustics, Legacy, Creek, Epos, Roksan, Davone, Peachtree, Thiel, dozens more.

1. I was blown away by a 4 speaker audio demonstration of blue ray audio playing. This was recorded at twice the sample rate of redbook CDs. It was amazing. They used 4 Theil CS3.7s and a wolf projector to show the video of the artists playing. Wow! Talked with the company rep and I think I'm going to buy an oppo universal player and explore this hi def music. Really the only thing at the entire show that just blew me away. I've never heard anything so lifelike and clean. I was truly hypnotized by it.

2. But regarding all these other high end 2 channel systems, I was happy to find out that these 50k and 100k systems just didn't sound much better than my system. In fact, quite a few of them I found irritatingly bright or even shrill. And apparently most people listen much louder than I do. WAY too loud in my opinion. I was truly not impressed. Of all the super high dollar systems only the Krell/YG acoustics combo was superb. As for the rest of them, I kid you not, I wouldn't trade my kit for any of them. And most of them were very big and ugly.

3. There's definately no "best" or "perfect" system. The one thing that amazed me was how different all these high dollar systems sounded. It's not like as you go up in price it just keeps getting better. Nope it just get's different, not better.

4. The Epos/Creek system was terrific. I've never heard Epos before and I really enjoyed the sound. I would not call it neutral though. It was very detailed and forward sounding which might be tiring long term, but for my demo I found them to be excellent and musical (Epos M22i).

5. To be honest, I really enjoyed the lower end systems (like the creek/epos) more than the expensive systems.

6. This show really deflated any desire I would ever have to get nuts and spend crazy money on this stuff. I just didn't see the value in these super high end systems. I'm not talking about a 10k system, I'm talking about 40k or 80k or even 200k systems.

7. By far, my favorite room at the show was a company called madisound out of madison wisconson. They sell speaker kits. They had a speaker kit for $600 a pair which includes everything including cabinets, crossovers, drivers, post plate, damping material, wire, etc. If you had told me these speaker cost $3000 I would not have blinked. They call them the "Loki". And they use a seas coincident driver with the tweeter mounted in the middle of the woofer like a KEF speaker. These sounded good, I mean really really good. And once I heard the price I was drooling. The speaker cabinet is a real wood veneer too.

Duke · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 03:18 am »

Hi Jaxwire,

Several years ago I was all set to launch a new speaker based on a new and exciting coaxial driver from Seas. I figured they would be very competitive at a grand a pair, and I could still make a fair profit. Then I found out Madisound was selling the same driver + a very good crossover + a very good enclosure for roughly what my parts cost came to. That kit was, of course, the Loki.

The surviving prototypes of my coaxial system are now scattered around my TV room in 5.1 configuration. At $600 a pair the Loki is simply a killer bargain - it killed my speaker before it was even launched!

satfrat · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 03:22 am »

What city? Thanks.

jaxwired · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 03:35 am »

Quote from: satfrat on 6 Mar 2010, 03:22 am

What city? Thanks.

Jacksonville Florida

satfrat · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 03:48 am »

Quote from: jaxwired on 6 Mar 2010, 03:35 am

Jacksonville Florida

I hear it's a bit chilly down there tonite. I'm currently watching motorcycle racing at Daytona International Speedway on Speed Channel and they're complaining a lot about racing at night when it's in the low 30's. That's not suppose to happen in Florida,,, that's northeast weather.

Cheers,
Robin

jaxwired · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 11:15 am »

Something else this show highlighted for me. I listen to real music. I buy lots of music and I buy current artists. For a lot of people that get obsessed with the audiophile hobby, they either forget about the music they love or they let the hobby change their tastes. Instead of buying great music, they start buying music that makes their HiFi sound great. These are not the same thing at all. I can't tell you how many of these 50k and 100k systems that used freakish music to demo their gear. I mean really bizarre stuff. Sure it had amazing dynamic range and the recoding was spectacular, but it wasn't good music, it was generally awful music. I made a compilation CD of CD quality tracks that I took with me and most rooms at the show were willing to play it. This allowed me to assess each system with the same few tracks. One guy told me how surprised he was that more people don't do this. I guess people are afraid to ask.

Audiophiliac · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 06:34 pm »

I love that statement jax! I feel the same way about music and hifi. Hifi (the gear) should simply be a catalyst for the music you truly enjoy. But it almost seems that over the years, there has been a new genre created for (and sometimes by) hifi manufacturers and dealers (and ultimately their customers) to "show off" their products with.

Fortunately, there are some companies out there that have this same philosophy. The first that comes to mind is the guys over at Zu.

"We're only here for the MUSIC" is their "creedo" or whatever you want to call it.

On a similar note, I have found over the years, that I can really enjoy music regardless of the equipment it is played through or the location I am in. Better equipment might make me more anxious to throw in my favorite album for a listen, and maybe more often. But it certainly does not make me enjoy it more. Not that I am using a boombox to listen to my music or anything.

More power to the people who buy all the uber-$$$ gear and keep this hobby alive though.

Someone has to do it!

Nuance · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Mar 2010, 07:31 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 6 Mar 2010, 01:42 am

3. There's definately no "best" or "perfect" system. The one thing that amazed me was how different all these high dollar systems sounded. It's not like as you go up in price it just keeps getting better. Nope it just get's different, not better.

This is one of the smartest things I've ever read on these forums. I may be biased because I completely agree, but I stand by my statement.

Quote from: jaxwired on 6 Mar 2010, 01:42 am

7. By far, my favorite room at the show was a company called madisound out of madison wisconson. They sell speaker kits. They had a speaker kit for $600 a pair which includes everything including cabinets, crossovers, drivers, post plate, damping material, wire, etc. If you had told me these speaker cost $3000 I would not have blinked. They call them the "Loki". And they use a seas coincident driver with the tweeter mounted in the middle of the woofer like a KEF speaker. These sounded good, I mean really really good. And once I heard the price I was drooling. The speaker cabinet is a real wood veneer too.

Really? Wow. I'm only 90 min or so from Madisound. I'll have to pay them a visit soon.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Mar 2010, 02:17 pm »

Thanks for the thread.

Yes, too few audiophile quality recordings of (what I call) "good" music.

Yes, Madisound is a great resource (my Fostex F200A drivers came from there).

Yes, after the last audiofest I visited I was very content with my system (which has since been taken up several steps).

kip_ · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 03:41 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 6 Mar 2010, 01:42 am

7. By far, my favorite room at the show was a company called madisound out of madison wisconson. They sell speaker kits. They had a speaker kit for $600 a pair which includes everything including cabinets, crossovers, drivers, post plate, damping material, wire, etc. If you had told me these speaker cost $3000 I would not have blinked. They call them the "Loki". And they use a seas coincident driver with the tweeter mounted in the middle of the woofer like a KEF speaker. These sounded good, I mean really really good. And once I heard the price I was drooling. The speaker cabinet is a real wood veneer too.

If you liked the Loki, Selah Audio also sells a version with an improved crossover for $800 a pair (assembled, kit also offered) called the MF7. I have three of them as my LCR and they're wonderful.

turkey · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 04:48 pm »

The people at Madisound are really nice, and they offer things at good prices. I heard the Loki, and also Rick Craig's version in his room.

Unfortunately, they both sounded like the highs were kind of echo-ey, like old-fashioned horns are.

I don't think I have heard a coaxial driver yet that sounded right.

jackman · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 05:18 pm »

Hey Jax, great post.

Nothing wrong with Madisound. I've met lots of really talented folks on their board including Dennis Murphy, Dave Ellis, Jim Salk, Danny Ritchey, Rick Craig, etc. I've bought things from Madisound and they are great people to deal with. Haven't tried their kits but I'm sure they sound good and use good drivers.

Thanks again for your thoughts and show recap. I bet you find lots of people with similar experience.

Cheers,

J

turkey · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 05:31 pm »

Quote from: jaxwired on 6 Mar 2010, 01:42 am

3. There's definately no "best" or "perfect" system. The one thing that amazed me was how different all these high dollar systems sounded. It's not like as you go up in price it just keeps getting better. Nope it just get's different, not better.

I'm going to comment on this one too.

I'm not sure it's completely fair to judge system based on how they sound at a show. Most of the time you're lucky if things even sound better than a table radio.

However, I have heard some expensive gear in dealer's showrooms over the years (where you would assume that they take pains to present the products in the best light possible), and I'd agree that cost has little relation to sound quality.

There is very definitely a point of diminishing returns, and it's far lower than the industry will ever admit to.

smargo · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: turkey on 9 Mar 2010, 05:31 pm

There is very definitely a point of diminishing returns, and it's far lower than the industry will ever admit to.

agreed - this is a great point - so much is over-rated - i have been saying this for so many years!

cujobob · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 07:34 pm »

A lot of systems are technically superior to others, but not everyone is looking for 'correctness,' rather...they simply want an enjoyable sound. Hearing varies at different points throughout our lives, rooms are all different, designers all have different aspects they value, and listeners like music portrayed in a variety of ways. With this in mind, price cannot fix all of those issues. It can get fancier parts...'possibly' more/better R&D, but it can't change the rest. One would hope greater resolution and better in-room response would result, though.

Anyways...hi-rez audio rocks...and those Loki speakers look interesting for the price. FWIW, compression drivers get a lot better when you spend more money. Beyma and B&C make some fantastic compression drivers, but they aren't cheap. The lower end B&C are apparently solid, too. P-Audio's drivers have been well thought of, though there are differing accounts of their consistency.

arthurs · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 07:40 pm »

Did you hear the King Sound electrostats? Any thoughts?

turkey · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 08:43 pm »

Quote from: arthurs on 9 Mar 2010, 07:40 pm

Did you hear the King Sound electrostats? Any thoughts?

Over-sized bug zappers?

arthurs · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 09:13 pm »

Quote from: turkey on 9 Mar 2010, 08:43 pm

Over-sized bug zappers?

I didn't know they offered that functionality, but it's a nice extra for outdoor summer listening!

Any thoughts on how they sounded? (or if that was your review of their sound, point taken)

turkey · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 10:07 pm »

Quote from: arthurs on 9 Mar 2010, 09:13 pm

I didn't know they offered that functionality, but it's a nice extra for outdoor summer listening!

Any thoughts on how they sounded? (or if that was your review of their sound, point taken)

No, that's how someone on another board once described large ESLs.

I did hear a pair at a friend's house last year, but they just sounded like any other ESL to me. I'm not really a fan of big panel speakers, so I'm probably not the one to ask.

JeffB · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Mar 2010, 10:08 pm »

Quote

The one thing that amazed me was how different all these high dollar systems sounded.

I also think this is a really interesting comment. You would think as the price goes up, that the systems should start to sound similar. I can see something like electrostats sounding different than bass-reflex, but you might expect all bass-reflex designs to start sounding similar.