Antique Sound Labs

gja · « **on:** 9 Jun 2003, 12:47 pm »

Hello,

I am not yet an owner, but am seriously considering DeCapos. I was wondering if anyone has any experience driving these with the Wave AV-20DT, or the Tulip amp?

TIA

Andy

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Jun 2003, 10:37 pm »

No experience, but from web research and 2nd hand accounts I'd expect that these speakers could make use of far better amps, especially the Wave 20 (if it's anything like the Wave

.

Terry · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jun 2003, 02:10 pm »

I would have to agree with JLM. I have heard the DeCappos driven with the ASL Leyla integrated amp and the sound was very fine indeed. But I don't think the Waves or Wave 20 would be quite good enough.

Paul L · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jun 2003, 03:00 pm »

I have to agree and disagree in different perspective. There is no doubt that the De Capos deserve a top notch up stream components. However, if there is constraint in budget, the Wave amps can be a good interim amp and put the money saved to the source. I have used the Wave 8 with our LW-1 to drive the De Capos for demo and the sound is respectable especially when you considering the price. If you reduce the source budget and allocate it to the amp, you won't gain that much and may be even worse if you are not careful about what amp you are buying. In a word, the Wave amps are good starting amp for the De Capos but not the ultimate.

brucegel · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jun 2003, 07:37 pm »

I agree with Paul that the tulip is a fine interim amp and also remember that there are a myriad amount of choices as to" what kind" of tube sound you are looking for.My personal approach is to always aim toward live sound,correct timbre,tonal realism as opposed to a lush or creamy sonic thumbprint and that can only be achieved by total system synergy.It aint easy and I believe it takes decades to actually know what you want and go after it smartly but every move you make is a learning experience and thankfully no shortcuts exist.But the DeCapo's are a great revealer.

gja · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Jun 2003, 01:46 pm »

What do you guys think of the Tulip's paltry 3.5 watts? My room is smallish, 17x11x8. My front end is all analog (Grado Ref/TNT HR/AI3a).
Although I'm no headbanger, I do enjoy some bombastic ocrchestral at times.

TIA

Andy

brucegel · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Jun 2003, 05:54 pm »

Sounds like your going to have to hook it up and listen.3.5 is a little shy of the recommeded 5 watts.I would avoid the questionable wattage of the tulip by going with something in the 10 and up range.No reason for watts overkill and no reason for underkill either.

cyounkman · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 03:43 pm »

I think the first time I heard an SET amp was the ASL Leyla and the De Capos (the pair that I now own). I guess I wasn't prepared for it; but I really didn't like it. There was definitely something magical in there; but when I say 'in there' I'm referring to the harmonic fog the permeated the entire stage. Dynamic contrasts seemed to fight their way out of the speaker to arrive, spent, at the listener position.

It's possible that there could have been something wrong with the amp? But the dealer didn't seem to think so, and I didn't hear any telltale hissing or popping or obvious overload distortion. Maybe I was listening too loud (maddeningly, I got the impression that setting the volume anywhere higher than about 1 o'clock made no difference at all), but it was a small room--about 10'x12'x8'. The disc (probably spun on a Musical Fidelity A3 CD player--it was that long ago) was something orchestral, probably contemporary to Berlioz--a good-size orchestra, but nothing too stressful--no bass drums or organ pipes.

Obviously I'm not really an 845 kind of guy. It remains to be seen if I'm a tube kind of guy, at all. If so, I think I will need a good bit more power. (VTL ST-150?)

Quote from: gja

My room is smallish, 17x11x8...
Although I'm no headbanger, I do enjoy some bombastic ocrchestral at times.

Based on that, (if your 'bombastic' is even half of my 'bombastic') I don't think 3.5 watts is even in the ballpark. I couldn't get satisfying volume (i.e., even bordering on bombast) out of the de capos with 22 watts in a room smaller than yours.

But, I run my De Capos with 150 watts, solid state. I am not entirely happy with it, obviously, but I passed over pretty much the entire ASL line when I bought it. The set of compromises I wanted at my price point was very different. I sometimes/often listen to fully-orchestrated romantic symphonic music (i.e. Mahler, Bruckner) as well as bandwidth-enhanced, dynamically-challenging music from the 20th century, from Anthiel to Stravinsky to Radiohead. My room is of a reasonable size--similar to yours. (see my system.)

I have definitely heard great results with single-digit amps, but they have all been with truly high-efficiency speakers. The SAP full-range two-piece boxes (I believe it was their Quartette) at the last Montreal show sounded great with 6 watts. (Sorry--I can look up the models if anyone cares.) Their efficiency spec is 95 db.

The point to all this is, your mileage may vary. I know there are a lot of people very happy running De Capo's with single-digit-output amps. I would definitely try at home before buying.

brucegel: What is your take on this? You've mentioned in the past that you can play as loud as you like with your TT-25's. Is 25 watts vs 22 watts that much of difference, or is there something else going on here?

brucegel · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 05:51 pm »

The vtl tt25's are plenty loud.The room is 14x22x7.5 and I never listen beyond 12'oclock but this may have a lot to do with the fact that I run direct from the capitole cdp into the amps.The gain is obviously enormous on the capitole.I have long speaker cable runs 25ft. to be exact and it hasn't caused any signal loss that I can detect.The reason for the long runs is I like the gear as far from the speakers as possible.

gja · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 09:14 pm »

Thanks for all of your imput(s).

I've made an offer on a Cary Rocket 88. Hopefully it will be accepted and I'll be on my way. This unit is a push pull design and will produce 20 watts per side in triode mode.

I think its a safe bet.

Hows about youse?

Andy

cyounkman · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 10:16 pm »

gja:

Good luck with the Cary. It's also on my [long neglected] list of options. Let us know how it goes. Take a look at this TAS review from Issue #139 / December 2002:
http://www.avguide.com/product/Monoblock_&_Stereo_Power_Amplifiers/Controllers_Amplifiers/Cary_Audio/Rocket_88/2340.jsp

Frustratingly, Dan Davis is essentially reviewing two Rockets, "in designer Dennis Had’s preferred vertical stereo biamping configuration."

How's that for a cheap tweak--just buy two of everything...
"I really loved the xyz 123 lead-filled turntable.. But with TWO of them, the soundstage opened up, and I swear I could hear where part of the master tape was exposed to infrared light once..."

We'll have to institute a rule where everyone who posts an amplifier question has to write a 5000-word review once they buy one. (I'm just kidding).

Terry · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Jun 2003, 01:20 pm »

Quote from: cyounkman

I think the first time I heard an SET amp was the ASL Leyla and the De Capos (the pair that I now own). I guess I wasn't prepared for it; but I really didn't like it. There was definitely something magical in there; but when I say 'in there' I'm referring to the harmonic fog the permeated the entire stage. Dynamic contrasts seemed to fight their way out of the speaker to arrive, spent, at the listener position.

Chris: I just noticed your comment on the Leyla and it is interesting our different take on this amp driving the DeCapos. I listened to this combination for about an hour at a friends place and our listening was restricted to vocals and small ensemble jazz. I liked the lushness that the 845 imparted but, I must admit, the drum kit did not have the snap I usually expect and the double bass sounded a little soggy (for lack of a better word) than I like. The voice, however, was fantastic.

On another amplifier, the Manley Neo Classic, that I have heard many times with the DeCappos, I very much preferred this amp when used in the push-pull mode for all music except vocals. When listening to vocals (Shirley Horn, Tieney Sutton etc), switching the Manleys to SET mode added a degree of warmth to the voice that was, well, seductive to say the least.

So, perhaps my orginal take on the Leyla had more to do with the kind of music we were listening to at the time. I also had a chance to listen to an ASL 300B integrated, which may have been SET, and I did not like this combination at all. Although the DeCappos appear to be a fairly easy load for an amp, they will definitely reveal the weaknesses in any design.

TIC · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Jun 2003, 12:11 pm »

I have powered my DeCapos with 45 Type tube amps @ about 1.5w/channel and get satisfactory volume in my 13X15 room.

Currently I run a 5w/ch. 2A3 tube amp which easily powers them to LOUD volume.

However, I just bought the Dodd Audio 8 watt/ch. push pull amp and "OH MY!!!" it really works well with the DeCapos.

I think the web forums are going to be hearing a lot about Dodd Audio in the near future. Gary Dodd is building some incredible products at real world prices.

Enjoy,

TIC

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jul 2003, 05:37 pm »

I think 3.5 watts would work for low-moderate volumes but it would most certainly poop out on anything that is dynamic or loud.

Remember, if the DC's are rated at 92dB/1watt/1meter sensitivity (I have read a test that said they were really 91dB) and that you are probably sitting more like 3-5 meters away. This just means that at your seat, it takes more like 4-5watts(maybe more) to hit 91dB.

Someone please step in and remind me what the equation is for how much sound diminishes over distance.

Anyway, I would say get something around 10-20 watts just for those occasions when you want to "rock out". Then you have the headroom and don't have to worry about the amps holding you back.

You can bridge the ASL tulip's for 10 watt monoblocks. I have seen them go for as little as $650 on audiogon. You could get a little Norh SE9 for $3oo on audiogon. That might be an economical choice. Just some food for thought.

cyounkman · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jul 2003, 05:49 pm »

When I first listened to the De Capos I ended up buying, the dealer switched between the DC's and the PMC FB-1. I know, they're not exactly pitched at the same audience... Point is, they are both rated at 92 db, and the FB-1's were a bit louder at the same setting. Could've been psycho-acoustic, with the different frequency range/response.

Just thought I'd add that to the fray.

gja · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jul 2003, 05:53 pm »

As you may have read, I ended up purchasing the Cary Rocket 88. This unit is rated at 20 wps in Triode and 40 wps in Ultralinear mode. In my 17x11x8' room Triode works for most recordings, however, for more demanding pieces, I find myself switching to ultralinear for greater dynamics. Go figure!