AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: abomwell on 26 Jan 2022, 08:25 pm
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A question for X series owners: While doing a frequency sweep of the X5's I heard a loud (what I thought was) speaker rattle in the low bass. At first I thought there must be something in my room vibrating at a particular frequency. Trying to isolate the particular problem frequency I played a frequency test tone CD. When it played the 25Hz frequency I heard the rattle and discovered it was from the speakers. Looking behind the speakers I noticed the red light on the plate amp flashing rapidly. Does that flashing red light indicate that the plate amp is clipping? I know amplifier clipping can imitate speaker rattle to perfection and wanted see if anyone knows about this.
Many thanks!
Al
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Trying to isolate the particular problem frequency I played a frequency test tone CD. When it played the 25Hz frequency I heard the rattle and discovered it was from the speakers. Looking behind the speakers I noticed the red light on the plate amp flashing rapidly. Does that flashing red light indicate that the plate amp is clipping?
Many thanks!
Al
Yes, the red flashing light indicates the plate amp is clipping. I experienced the flashing red light early on in my ownership of the X5s. X Series owners need to pay attention to the clipping because you may be happy with your bass extension, but you need to check behind the speakers to make sure your desired bass volume is not causing the amps to clip which you won’t know for sure without checking behind the speakers. I first discovered the clipping by turning up the amps a little bit and the red light started flashing when the bass notes from the song was playing. I don’t get the bass that I really want because every time I turn the amps volume up to my preferred bass levels, they start clipping on a lot of songs with real low bass frequencies. So, I chose a few songs that caused my amp to clip and backed off the amp volume just enough to stop the clipping and that pretty much guaranteed any other songs with less bass would not cause any clipping. Otherwise, I would have to keep getting up and checking the amps for clipping which I have done and it takes away from my listening experience.
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Many thanks, DBT Audio! That's what I suspected and appreciate your way of dealing with it.
Al5
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Many thanks, DBT Audio! That's what I suspected and appreciate your way of dealing with it.
Al5
No problem!
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YIKES! I never checked my X3s. If I am clipping as well, would crossing over the speakers also solve the problem? I use JRiver and I can crossover as low as 30 Hz although JRiver recommends 40 Hz for large speakers.
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YIKES! I never checked my X3s. If I am clipping as well, would crossing over the speakers also solve the problem? I use JRiver and I can crossover as low as 30 Hz although JRiver recommends 40 Hz for large speakers.
I’ve never played with any room correction software, so I don’t have an answer. However, whatever you do to tune the bass down, I imagine, it would stop the amps from clipping. BUT, will you still hear the desired bass you want with the adjustments you mentioned? Sometimes, amps and drivers just run out of gas at certain bass frequencies.
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I guess my question is it actually bad for the lifespan of the amps or sound quality if the red light flashes every so often. I do like some extra bass typically and do notice the red light flashes sometimes during bass heavy songs on my X5s. I've had my speakers for almost two years now with no issues. I don't believe unless you hear any obvious distortion that you are actually prematurely damaging the plate amp or am I mistaken? The plate amp is a class D amp so i would think it is very robust.
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YIKES! I never checked my X3s. If I am clipping as well, would crossing over the speakers also solve the problem? I use JRiver and I can crossover as low as 30 Hz although JRiver recommends 40 Hz for large speakers.
I doubt there will be much clipping playing classical music. The occasional bass drum whack or very loud roll, or a sustained loud bottom octave organ tone might do it. But for mostly everything else, not too likely.
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A question for X series owners: While doing a frequency sweep of the X5's I heard a loud (what I thought was) speaker rattle in the low bass. At first I thought there must be something in my room vibrating at a particular frequency. Trying to isolate the particular problem frequency I played a frequency test tone CD. When it played the 25Hz frequency I heard the rattle and discovered it was from the speakers. Looking behind the speakers I noticed the red light on the plate amp flashing rapidly. Does that flashing red light indicate that the plate amp is clipping? I know amplifier clipping can imitate speaker rattle to perfection and wanted see if anyone knows about this.
Many thanks!
Al
I haven't had any clipping with my X5s, even with the bass turned all the way up. Which model of the hypex amp does your set have? My pair came with the 500w version (FA501) installed. Maybe that has something to do with it?
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I guess my question is it actually bad for the lifespan of the amps or sound quality if the red light flashes every so often. I do like some extra bass typically and do notice the red light flashes sometimes during bass heavy songs on my X5s. I've had my speakers for almost two years now with no issues. I don't believe unless you hear any obvious distortion that you are actually prematurely damaging the plate amp or am I mistaken? The plate amp is a class D amp so i would think it is very robust.
That’s a good question for Clayton and I can’t remember exactly what he said when I asked him about possible damage to the amp or speaker? I know he advised me not to allow the amps to clip, so It’s clipping for a reason and I wouldn’t risk allowing them to clip.
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I haven't had any clipping with my X5s, even with the bass turned all the way up. Which model of the hypex amp does your set have? My pair came with the 500w version (FA501) installed. Maybe that has something to do with it?
I know your question was for abomwell, but I wanted to share that I do have the 250w amp paired with my X5s. I am confident the 500w amp would give most X5 owners the desired bass without clipping. You seem to have confirmed that.
Question for you, have you literally turned up your 500w amp to the max and didn’t experience any clipping?
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I haven't had any clipping with my X5s, even with the bass turned all the way up. Which model of the hypex amp does your set have? My pair came with the 500w version (FA501) installed. Maybe that has something to do with it?
Thanks for that info. I have an FA501 as well and turned all the way up. Because of this thread, I've looked back there but haven't seen anything. However, it's not like I'm driving the speakers at any really loud volume. I did play Bela Flecks' Flight of the Cosmic Hippo which has deep bass in it. Maybe I'll do that again and check the lights.
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Question for you, have you literally turned up your 500w amp to the max and didn’t experience any clipping?
Yes, but I'll test it again later tonight or tomorrow. Would you mind listing a few tracks that have caused clipping for you?
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Yes, but I'll test it again later tonight or tomorrow. Would you mind listing a few tracks that have caused clipping for you?
JTF, I really appreciate you doing a test run with some of the tunes that caused my 250w plate amps to clip. So, I have a few screenshots of the songs below. The title of the tracks are in bold font. Thanks so much!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236086)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236087)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236088)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236089)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236090)
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I just checked my X3s (delivered in May, 2021) and they have FA251 model. Does that mean I have the 250 watt amp? Gosh, it seems weird we all would have different model amps, clipping or not. I hope Clayton will address this so we all can relax.
Edit: I went to the Hypex website and can confirm FA251 is 250 watts and FA501 is 500 watts.
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I just checked my X3s (delivered in May, 2021) and they have FA251 model. Does that mean I have the 250 watt amp? Gosh, it seems weird we all would have different model amps, clipping or not. I hope Clayton will address this so we all can relax.
Edit: I went to the Hypex website and can confirm FA251 is 250 watts and FA501 is 500 watts.
I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?
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With "The Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" I get a green light with a bit of short intermittent red flashing. It's the lower frequency and not the volume because turning the volume down didn't change it at all. More flashing with the really low notes. I can't hear any real distortion.
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With "The Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" I get a green light with a bit of short intermittent red flashing. It's the lower frequency and not the volume because turning the volume down didn't change it at all. More flashing with the really low notes. I can't hear any real distortion.
The flashing red light stops when I lower the subwoofer volume. Are you referring to the preamp volume or subwoofer volume?
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I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?
I made the same assumption as yourself so I double checked SA's comparison chart and it doesn't provide any info regarding the amps. :scratch:
I certainly wouldn't be happy if I had X3 speakers but only had the 250w amps. Perhaps the wrong amps are going into the wrong speakers... if true that wouldn't speak well for their quality gates. :popcorn:
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The flashing red light stops when I lower the subwoofer volume. Are you referring to the preamp volume or subwoofer volume?
Doh! I forgot that the sub amp is on its own.
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Doh! I forgot that the sub amp is on its own.
Lol…. No sweat, this hifi thing can get crazy!
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I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?
I checked and my X5's came with the FA501 amps...
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I checked and my X5's came with the FA501 amps...
Nice…. Lucky you!
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I assume if there is a discrepancy it can be due to supply issues with COVID?
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The good news is that by just cutting the volume level by only 3db you will cut the wattage needed by 1/2.
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I assume if there is a discrepancy it can be due to supply issues with COVID?
Thats what I’m thinking. We may have waited for a longer delivery date if the 500w amps were not in the shop when they were building our speakers, so maybe they used what they had in stock?
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I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?
My memory of the specs from the older website is that the X3s came with the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps. I remember that when I ordered my X5's about 6 months ago they were on hold for quite a while due to issues getting Hypex amps.
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One thing that should help is to insert a high pass filter with a steep slope, say, at 25Hz in order to eliminate wattage wasting subterranean frequencies that can't be heard in smaller rooms where X5's likely live. I just did that via Roon.
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Yes, those hypex amps have been backordered since late last year. JUst received great news that Clayton will be getting more next week so at least my wait is almost over. Not sure what wattage they are though
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One thing that should help is to insert a high pass filter with a steep slope, say, at 25Hz in order to eliminate wattage wasting subterranean frequencies that can't be heard in smaller rooms where X5's likely live. I just did that via Roon.
What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades). Yeah, I know, box subs suck. But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.
Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list. I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.
Marcus
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DBT, thanks for listing those tracks. So, I do get some clipping with some of them if the knob is turned all the way, past the last tick mark, to where it won't turn any further. I put a pic below to illustrate the difference. If I back it off just slightly from that position (image on the right) it doesn't clip. Is this what you've experienced?
FWIW, I noticed the amp module was different from what was shown on Spatial's site when I took delivery in the spring of 2020. I discussed with Clayton at the time, and from what I remember of that conversation is that the 251 module is standard for both the X5 and X3, and he was only using the 501 due to supply constraints. I think performance was expected to be the same regardless. He also mentioned that the vol control is programmed to have a specific range of adjustment.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236137)
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What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades). Yeah, I know, box subs suck. But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.
Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list. I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.
Marcus
Actually, box subs are pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass.
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What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades). Yeah, I know, box subs suck. But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.
Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list. I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.
Marcus
I think boxed subs, crossed at 30 Hz, is a good way to avoid the clipping issue. What crossover slope are you using?
Linkwitz's Thor boxed subs were designed to work with his OB Orion's. I heard that setup and it sounded excellent. I don't recall where it was crossed over.
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Actually, box subs are actually pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass.
Yes, and placing them in opposite room corners, I found, really helped smooth out peaks and nulls in my room.
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Actually, box subs are pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass.
Thanks Tyson. Makes me feel better about my decision. The subs on my X3s are excellent and I doubt any of my music (except a couple organ pieces) reach low enough to create problems.
Yes, and placing them in opposite room corners, I found, really helped smooth out peaks and nulls in my room.
I do have them in the rear corners of my room. I'm glad I did it as you suggested.
I think boxed subs, crossed at 30 Hz, is a good way to avoid the clipping issue. What crossover slope are you using?
Linkwitz's Thor boxed subs were designed to work with his OB Orion's. I heard that setup and it sounded excellent. I don't recall where it was crossed over.
For home theater it was easy. I re-ran Audyssey this morning and it suggested a 40 Hz crossover. I kept that suggestion. Many of my movies have lots of loud explosions. Might as well let my box subs handle that hard work.
For music, not quite so easy. I do not use a preamp.
-- The good news: JRiver allows speaker distance and crossover settings (I set 30 Hz). The bad news: JRiver only applies these settings to PCM files, not DSD.
-- ROON, on the other hand, will apply speaker distance correction settings to both PCM and DSD files. Unfortunately, ROON does not have a crossover facility.
Personally, I can't hear a difference between the two music players so I tend to alternate between them.
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DBT, thanks for listing those tracks. So, I do get some clipping with some of them if the knob is turned all the way, past the last tick mark, to where it won't turn any further. I put a pic below to illustrate the difference. If I back it off just slightly from that position (image on the right) it doesn't clip. Is this what you've experienced?
FWIW, I noticed the amp module was different from what was shown on Spatial's site when I took delivery in the spring of 2020. I discussed with Clayton at the time, and from what I remember of that conversation is that the 251 module is standard for both the X5 and X3, and he was only using the 501 due to supply constraints. I think performance was expected to be the same regardless. He also mentioned that the vol control is programmed to have a specific range of adjustment.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236137)
JTF, I cannot set my subwoofer volume on the last tick mark without it clipping when I play, just about, any R&B or contemporary jazz songs that tend to have more bass than traditional jazz, for example. I have a big room, so I have to turn up the preamp volume a bit, but it's at a reasonable listening level. I can set the subwoofer volume, slightly, past the second to last tick mark on majority of the music I listen to, which is 90% traditional jazz, but I'm still not totally satisfied with the bass response. It's amazing how you don't get any real bass response until you turn up the subwoofer volume to the last few tick marks. I've never experienced this with any of the box subwoofers I've used for my surround sound setup.
I set the subwoofer volume on the second to last tick mark for the bass heavy songs that generally cause clipping when I go past that mark. See picture below.
The different amp installations due to supply constraints does sound like a familiar conversation I had with Clayton at the time I was purchasing my X5s, but I wasn't clear on which plate amp each X model was originally supposed to have? So, your response explains it. Thanks so much for testing those songs on your system!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=236150)
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It's amazing how you don't get any real bass response until you turn up the subwoofer volume to the last few tick marks. I've never experienced this with any of the box subwoofers I've used for my surround sound setup.
My takeaway from conversations with Clayton was that the gain control is setup to be a fine adjustment over a smaller range. So, if a regular sub is 0 to 10, absolute minimum and max, the X5 is set to cover like 5-8 or 6 to 9, something like that. Does that make sense? I could be wrong but that was my understanding. The range of adjustment seems to be from where the knob clicks into place at the 9 o'clock position, to whatever max is. Below that I don't get bass, but the bass does get stronger beyond the last tick mark.
Thanks so much for testing those songs on your system!
You're welcome, glad you found it helpful.
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My takeaway from conversations with Clayton was that the gain control is setup to be a fine adjustment over a smaller range. So, if a regular sub is 0 to 10, absolute minimum and max, the X5 is set to cover like 5-8 or 6 to 9, something like that. Does that make sense? I could be wrong but that was my understanding. The range of adjustment seems to be from where the knob clicks into place at the 9 o'clock position, to whatever max is. Below that I don't get bass, but the bass does get stronger beyond the last tick mark.
You're welcome, glad you found it helpful.
Yes, that explanation makes sense. I spoke to Clayton about it shortly after I received my X5s and he didn't seem to excited about the gain not having a more gradual increase of bass like most box subwoofers and supposedly, the manufacturer could not change that. I guess it doesn't really matter as long as you get the bass tuned to your liking. You are correct concerning how the bass gets stronger beyond the last tick mark, but my 250 watt ran out of gas and started clipping at that point, although it sounded good with several songs that I've tried at that setting.
Enjoy your listening sessions!