[Vinnie R.]

Thanks, Guys.

I'll pick up a pair this evening and see what they can do.  If they surprise me, I'll at least buy another pair.

I suppose for two pair, one can vertically stack them and flip the top speaker upside down so the tweeters become
located in the center.  But I would think that it would be pretty close to just buying the SP-C22 Center Channel ($99).

[bummrush]

I've used mine layed horizontal then tipped forward with a couple  of Herbies flat dot things under the speaker so fires straight cause of the curved cabinet. They sound super that way.

[Vinnie R.]

Ok guys,

I've been playing the SP-B22-LRs for a few hours now.  I am very impressed!     A lot has already been written about
them here and on other forums like stevehoffman and audiogon, so I won't say much because most of it has been
said already. 

The fact that you can get a pair now for $90 is pretty incredible - a huge value!  I urge you to just grab a pair, even if you
don't current have the need at the moment.  Give them to a friend or family member and get them into this hobby.  Pair them
with the $20 Lepai T-amp from Partsexpress and it will BLOW AWAY a Dr Dre Pill boombox, bose wave radio, and the like that cost
a lot more.  Use them in a 2nd or 3rd system, in the office, or on the desktop.  If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to
study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). 

So... what about adding more pairs?  This is something that I've been curious about.  I suspect that doing so will result in a bigger sound
and they should be able to play louder with less strain.  But I have to say that for their size, they don't sound that small [I have mine 6 feet from the wall behind them, and I'm listening fairly near field.  They image very well, offer a very balanced sound, and overall they do a lot of things well.  For me, they are more impressive sounding at moderate volumes than when played at louder levels].   

I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys!      I'll post if I do.

That's all for now...

Vinnie

[krikor]

Ok guys,

I've been playing the SP-B22-LRs for a few hours now.  I am very impressed!     A lot has already been written about
them here and on other forums like stevehoffman and audiogon, so I won't say much because most of it has been
said already. 

The fact that you can get a pair now for $90 is pretty incredible - a huge value!  I urge you to just grab a pair, even if you
don't current have the need at the moment.  Give them to a friend or family member and get them into this hobby.  Pair them
with the $20 Lepai T-amp from Partsexpress and it will BLOW AWAY a Dr Dre Pill boombox, bose wave radio, and the like that cost
a lot more.  Use them in a 2nd or 3rd system, in the office, or on the desktop.  If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to
study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). 

So... what about adding more pairs?  This is something that I've been curious about.  I suspect that doing so will result in a bigger sound
and they should be able to play louder with less strain.  But I have to say that for their size, they don't sound that small [I have mine 6 feet from the wall behind them, and I'm listening fairly near field.  They image very well, offer a very balanced sound, and overall they do a lot of things well.  For me, they are more impressive sounding at moderate volumes than when played at louder levels].   

I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys!      I'll post if I do.

That's all for now...

Vinnie

Thanks for the update. I didn't make it over to BB yesterday, but I'm hoping to grab a pair today. The one thing keeping me from giving multiple pairs a try (other than the $90xN), is the resulting distance between tweeters and what effect that might have on sound quality. Hopefully someone will give it a go, but probably not me (the wife and one-year-old probably wouldn't appreciate it just now)

[charmerci]

If you want to learn more about speakers, open up a pair to study them and play with them (crossover parts, cabinet damping/bracing, etc.). 

I may have to get at least 1 more pair and have some more fun with these little guys!      I'll post if I do.

That's all for now...

Vinnie

If you read through this entire thread, you'll see that Dennis Murphy (Salk, Philharmonic Audio, Ellis speakers) has had a detailed look at this crossover and says that it's doubtful you can do better with this set. I've taken them apart and with my semi-half trained observant eyes am pretty impressed with the quality of the crossover parts.


I've damped the entire cabinet and can say it does make a difference especially at louder levels.

[brj]

FYI, Amazon dropped their price to $89.99.

(I submitted a price match to Amazon against Best Buy the other day, though I have no idea if that was the trigger or not.)

[dlparker]

I've used mine layed horizontal then tipped forward with a couple  of Herbies flat dot things under the speaker so fires straight cause of the curved cabinet. They sound super that way.

You could make a pretty wicked line array with a setup like that.  I'd bet 4 pair running everything from 80Hz on up would fill a 200-300 capacity club pretty nicely. Use another 4 pair for the band's monitors, and a couple of homebrew 2x10 subs, and you're ready to start it up right!

[Vinnie R.]

You could make a pretty wicked line array with a setup like that.  I'd bet 4 pair running everything from 80Hz on up would fill a 200-300 capacity club pretty nicely. Use another 4 pair for the band's monitors, and a couple of homebrew 2x10 subs, and you're ready to start it up right!

hi dlparker et al,

Do you know the theory behind this?  If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:

- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair?  (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?

I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it. 

Thanks,

Vinnie

[mamba315]

If stacking could work, I may be interested in giving it a try.  Already have a pair, which I've been using for at least 3 months now.  Also have a very beefy 4-channel classdaudio amp, 300W/600W 8/4ohm per channel.  But how would this work, since my DAC's are 2-channel?

One possible configuration?  Two XLR Y-cables to split DAC 2-channel into 4 amp-channels.  Does this half the voltage, or just the amperage?  Either one speaker per amp channel, or two possibly since my amp should be able to handle very low impedance (to at least 2 ohm).  So either 2 or 4 stacked Pioneers per side.  Or maybe use the center channels in the same configuration?

Here is a good link about how the bookshelf and center speaker measure.  The bookshelf actually has slightly deeper bass despite having only one woofer.  However, the center has greater efficiency and power handling.  Minimum impedance is 6 ohm for the center, which would be a 3-ohm load to the amp if I doubled up right?  The amp shouldn't flinch at that.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

If somebody could make sure that this is an electrically sound idea, I may be interested in trying.  But I'd need guidance before attempting, down to the cabling.

[mamba315]

accidental double post

[Vinnie R.]

If stacking could work, I may be interested in giving it a try.  Already have a pair, which I've been using for at least 3 months now.  Also have a very beefy 4-channel classdaudio amp, 300W/600W 8/4ohm per channel.  But how would this work, since my DAC's are 2-channel?

One possible configuration?  Two XLR Y-cables to split DAC 2-channel into 4 amp-channels.  Does this half the voltage, or just the amperage?  Either one speaker per amp channel, or two possibly since my amp should be able to handle very low impedance (to at least 2 ohm).  So either 2 or 4 stacked Pioneers per side.  Or maybe use the center channels in the same configuration?

Here is a good link about how the bookshelf and center speaker measure.  The bookshelf actually has slightly deeper bass despite having only one woofer.  However, the center has greater efficiency and power handling.  Minimum impedance is 6 ohm for the center, which would be a 3-ohm load to the amp if I doubled up right?  The amp shouldn't flinch at that.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

If somebody could make sure that this is an electrically sound idea, I may be interested in trying.  But I'd need guidance before attempting.

Hi mamba315,

For a 4 channel amp, simply wire the inputs of two of the channels together (or use a splitter RCA cable if you don't want to solder).  So those two channels would feed two speakers that are stacked on one side.  Do the same for the other two channels for the other side.

If you want to do 4 speakers per side, then I would wire two in series (channel 1, L) and other two in series (channel 2, L), and do the same for the right side.  You have plenty of power, so no need to run in parallel.  4 in parallel will probably hurt the amp with a brutal < 2-ohm load in the bass freq. range.

Vinnie

[dlparker]

hi dlparker et al,

Do you know the theory behind this?  If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:

- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair?  (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?

I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it. 

Thanks,

Vinnie

I don't know the answers to those questions and I'd be curious to know. I'm trying to extend the "Cheap and Cheerful" concept to live music, with the "Cheerful" part being composed more and more of "small and light"  the older I get. I read about the technical aspects of all this stuff from time to time, but it doesn't really stay with me. I'm thinking about the coupling effects of each separate unit, 'coupled' with a good power amp for both the mains and monitors. "Small and light" just doesn't really apply when it comes to power amps, though. What I want to try is one of the AVA power amps driving the mains and monitors. I've got an Insight+ 220 (I think it is) that I'd like to try in that application, and then a couple of powered 2x10" sub cabs driven with a plate amp.

So far it's just a pipe dream, but at least SOME of my pipe dreams have actually come true!

[mamba315]

Since this would be to simply explore the viability of an idea, I would not want to modify the amp with my iron.  So I'd probably start with an XLR Y-cable.  Is this viable with a balanced cable too?  Would you expect better performance with the soldering method?

How could I wire 2 speakers in series?  Never done that before, but I'm okay with cable type DIY stuff.

And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"?  Questions questions...

4 per side sounds interesting, but the cost will need to be considered since this is purely experimental.

[krikor]

hi dlparker et al,

Do you know the theory behind this?  If you use 4 speakers in a line array, do you know:

- The optimum distance between the drivers?
- How many more dB of max output do you get per added pair?  (assuming each speaker gets its own amplifier channel)?
- Does adding more pairs of speakers to the line array extend the low frequency response, or is the limitation in the physics
of using a 4" driver?

I never experimented with this, so curious about it and if there are any links to learn more about it. 

Thanks,

Vinnie

Regarding the optimum distance between tweeters, as I understand it you want the distance to be as small as possible to minimize acoustical interference or comb filtering - "This phenomenon occurs when a single sound source such as a loudspeaker shares the same bandwidth across multiple drivers within the cabinet separated by a physical distance greater than the wavelength of propagation." As I understand it, which is only on the most basic level based on what I've read recently, the effect will be less pronounced the further you sit from the speaker array.

Here is the article from which that quote was pulled, though there is a lot more out there this topic... search line arrays, comb filtering and stacking speakers (especially over at audiokarm.org)
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/comb-filtering

With the BS22, the closest you can get the tweeters (center to center) is the width of the cabinet at 7-1/8" which corresponds to a wavelength of about 1900 Hz. So certain frequencies above that would then be susceptible to this interference (I have no idea how you go about calculating this and there is some debate about how noticeable this will be). The woofers would likely get some boost because they are much closer than the wavelength

As for increased dB and frequency range, I believe it is related to the phenomenon as well. In general you get a +3dB increase each doubling of the speakers assuming they are coherent (occupying the same space). But that does not account for constructive/destructive coupling between stacked drivers at various frequencies. The woofers may get some additional low-end boost because they are very close together relative to the long wavelengths of low frequencies (again, caveat based on my basic understanding of all this).

The upshot seems to be - Yes, you'll be able to play louder but stacking can cause peaks and valleys in the frequency response that will affect tone and imaging.

I'm beginning to think stacking these probably isn't going to match a properly designed line array and will probably cause more problems than it is worth... unless you just want it to go to 11.

[krikor]

Since this would be to simply explore the viability of an idea, I would not want to modify the amp with my iron.  So I'd probably start with an XLR Y-cable.  Is this viable with a balanced cable too?  Would you expect better performance with the soldering method?

How could I wire 2 speakers in series?  Never done that before, but I'm okay with cable type DIY stuff.

And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"?  Questions questions...

4 per side sounds interesting, but the cost will need to be considered since this is purely experimental.

Check out the wiring diagrams for the line array kits over at zalytron.com - they show how you can wire up series/parallel with various numbers of speakers. To wire two speakers in series and maintain proper phase between them:
Amp+ > Spk1+
Spk1- > Spk2+
Spk2- > Amp-

As for what impedance your amp will see per channel and whether or not it can handle it see below. This assumes a 6 ohm impedance for the BS22, but the Stereophile measurements show they drop to 4.5 ohm at 250 Hz and go up quite a bit higher than 6 ohms at the top end:
- 2x speakers in sereis = 12 ohms
- 2x speakers in parallel = 3 ohms
- 4x speakers in series/parallel = 6 ohms

[Vinnie R.]

H Krikor,

Thanks for the information you posted.  You might be right about stacking.  Still, it might be fun to try 2 speakers per channel and flipping
the top one on the stack upside down.  For an extra $90, it's hard to resist trying! 

Yes, the 6-ohm rating is the "nominal" impedance of the B22.  It does dip down to 4.5 ohm  so two in parallel will give 2.25 ohm at that
freq.  Ideally, each speaker will get its own channel.  I would think that will give best results. 

And of course, does the bookshelf or center make a better candidate "on paper"?  Questions questions...

Hi Mamba,  Not sure.  I wish Andrew Jones participated here.     I'm going to go with 2 pairs because it'll be easier to get more
volume from these little guys (with each speaker getting its own channel, and its own box).

Vinnie

[Wayner]

Andrew Jones is an Audiocircles member. Look at the early entries to this thread.

Wayner

[tvyankee]

Hello,

Dont know if i am allowed to do this or not but if i am not then remove it but since this is just an add for these speakers i thought i might help a few people out who have been looking for a deal.

http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/371994

[Vinnie R.]

Hi tvyankee,

How have you been?  Hope all is going well for you and thanks for the link.

Hi Wayner,

I saw that - thank you.

I also found this from Rueben on page 11:

I bought a pair of the BS22's for my kid and a pair of the C22's (MTM center channel) for me. The sibilance that the towers (bought and returned) produced was there in the C22 as well (although they sounded better than the towers overall). I ended up swapping the crossovers between the BS22's and C22's and WOW!!! That's what I was after when I bought the C22's. A bigger sounding version of the BS22's!

My 13 year old daughter prefers the "clarity" of her BS22's with the C22 crossovers, so it's a win-win.

So it looks like AJ tweaked the crossover of the center channel a bit, probably to emphasize the mids (for vocals).  It's probably one or two
part value changes.  So I guess one can get the C22s and if they can post pics of the crossover and values, we can compare to the B22 and know
what to change them to to make the C22 with B22 crossover.

Also - looks like AJ left this thread a while back.   

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

I was out this evening and swung by BB - I couldn't help myself! 

So later this evening I'll be running a pair of double-BS22s.  We'll see what happens....