AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 13 May 2014, 02:42 pm
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Perhaps a few threads to gauge interest first:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=125913.msg1328388#msg1328388
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124569.msg1313605#msg1313605
A comparison of sonics by someone who has heard both would be great!
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Finally! A comment about Maraschino versus nCore, kind of....
"Never heard a digital amp I liked (even the vaunted nCore's sound sterile to me). But this room sounded awesome. Kudos on a great job."
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129172.msg1369369#msg1369369
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since the goal of the ncore designer was to create an amp without a sound, perhaps sterile should be taken as a compliment...
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nCore - the audio equivalent of bleach. I'm not sure anyone should take that as a compliment.
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Check this out:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=125913.msg1369954#msg1369954
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Interesting thread, mentions nCore here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.msg1394205#msg1394205
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Interesting thread, mentions nCore here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.msg1394205#msg1394205
haha, yeah....it "sounds terrible" :lol:
It sound so terrible that they can barely keep them in stock...
To each his own....
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Here's your chance to pick up a pair of Maraschinos, OR our new stereo MINT Maraschino....
http://kck.st/1EKKHSt
Lots of audio goodies available, and amazing deals, including 60V upgrades!
Seth of Virtue Audio is a Maraschino owner and is helping out by offering Virtue Nirvana interconnects free with amp purchases through the MINT Kickstarter:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133641.msg1418884#msg1418884
Hurry, offers end Sunday 1PM EDT.
Thanks! (:
-Tommy O
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Since NC-400 modules are DIY, and Maraschinos are a commercial product, this is kind of apples to oranges: the Ncores will sound different in different builds.
I have a NC-400 SMPS 600 amplifier which I love the sound of, but it did take a little work to get it to where it is now.
Amp Designer: if you would like to lend some Cherries I would be happy to do a comparison and post my thoughts here, I used to do listen testing as part of my job at PS Audio, so I am familiar with how to do it and be relatively objective.
System details: DIY BIIIse DAC, direct to NC-400 stereo amp build, to Focus Audio Signature FS-888 loudspeakers.
Send a PM if you are up for a detailed comparison. I am always interested in hearing new stuff.
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I have a NC-400 SMPS 600 amplifier which I love the sound of, but it did take a little work to get it to where it is now.
My experience, too. I like it in the original "standard" config, which replaced a good sounding but slightly veiled (in comparison) Cullen modded PS Audio GCC-250 IcePower amp (now doing duty in my office), but I did feel it was a bit forward and hi-fi-ish compared to the best I've heard. Replacing the Hypex issued input and power input cables and going with the Ric Schultz modded Wima caps did wonders for it. More relaxed, open and natural. I'm very pleased with its' non-sound.
Comparing an optimized NC-400 to the Cherries would be interesting, although I suspect they may well be in the same league, with different flavors. How one adds or subtracts for the value of the "fun" of DIY is a personal matter, of course.
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Since NC-400 modules are DIY, and Maraschinos are a commercial product, this is kind of apples to oranges: the Ncores will sound different in different builds.
I have a NC-400 SMPS 600 amplifier which I love the sound of, but it did take a little work to get it to where it is now.
Amp Designer: if you would like to lend some Cherries I would be happy to do a comparison and post my thoughts here, I used to do listen testing as part of my job at PS Audio, so I am familiar with how to do it and be relatively objective.
System details: DIY BIIIse DAC, direct to NC-400 stereo amp build, to Focus Audio Signature FS-888 loudspeakers.
Send a PM if you are up for a detailed comparison. I am always interested in hearing new stuff.
Last year, I had the pleasure of listening to Maraschino Cherry prototypes (48V version) versus Merrill VERITAS Monoblocks (based on nc1200). It was pretty unfair since the Merrill Audio amps are $12,000 a pair and power output is rated at about 4x the 48V Maraschinos. However, the Maraschinos really "showed up" for this comparison. I thought they sounded quite similar, actually. Keep in mind that the KING 60V Maraschino sounds that much better, and ups the power to about double. An nc400 would be more a matched comparison as far as available power output.
We would like to have a professional reviewer do similar comparisons with our KING 60V version. So far, only the 48V version of the Maraschino has been professionally reviewed. We take customer feedback with just as much weight, however, and they have been very positive about the Maraschino driven with either voltage.
How about taking the plunge and picking up a MINT Maraschino? It's very low cost as far as high-end equipment goes. We understand not everyone can afford a Corvette, just like not everyone can afford a Cherry Amp, but if you have the means, we high recommend them (:
Thanks for your kind post.
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A customer recently said this in an email:
"Your reviews tell me your sound is more natural than the Hypex nCores. That says a lot."
Well, is there anybody out there that is willing to lend me a pair of pre-fab module based amps (using hypex) so I can run tests and put a listening party together?
Thanks.
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A customer recently said this in an email:
"Your reviews tell me your sound is more natural than the Hypex nCores. That says a lot."
Well, is there anybody out there that is willing to lend me a pair of pre-fab module based amps (using hypex) so I can run tests and put a listening party together?
Thanks.
AP-2 measurements of the NC-400 modules are posted at the Hypex website: if you want to compare those measurements to that of the Cherry amps, post 'em up! I think it is only fair that if readers are expected to trust your measurements of your own amps, that they should also be trusting of Hypex's measurements of their amps.
As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around. For me, my Ncore stereo amp is the amp I use in my system every day, I really do not want to be without it for the few weeks such a trip would require.
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As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around.
A few years ago there were 2 similar speaker designs by 2 manufacturers launching their respective products, and a fair bit of buzz on the various forums as to which was better. But nobody had a pair of both to compare so it was all speculation.
I had a pair of one of the speakers and posted how I liked them. I was contacted by the manufacturer of the other speaker who had been reading the various threads. He offered to ship me his product, he would pay shipping, and all he asked was for me to listen and compare and to post my impressions in one specific thread. When I was done he would pay for return shipping. Never took my credit card, etc.
Obviously he was supremely confident in his product. It turns out for good reason.
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AP-2 measurements of the NC-400 modules are posted at the Hypex website: if you want to compare those measurements to that of the Cherry amps, post 'em up! I think it is only fair that if readers are expected to trust your measurements of your own amps, that they should also be trusting of Hypex's measurements of their amps.
As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around. For me, my Ncore stereo amp is the amp I use in my system every day, I really do not want to be without it for the few weeks such a trip would require.
Tommy,
I think Barrows is the perfect person to send your amp to, I have read many posts by him and he always seems very fair in his assessment of gear and very clear of his findings and opinions. I believe you would be doing yourself a big favor if you really believe everything you are saying about your product.
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AP-2 measurements of the NC-400 modules are posted at the Hypex website: if you want to compare those measurements to that of the Cherry amps, post 'em up! I think it is only fair that if readers are expected to trust your measurements of your own amps, that they should also be trusting of Hypex's measurements of their amps.
As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around. For me, my Ncore stereo amp is the amp I use in my system every day, I really do not want to be without it for the few weeks such a trip would require.
Exactly my point about measurements. I want to do them on MY equipment. We both have excellent specifications, there's no doubt there. Listening is the real target. The fact that people are saying Maraschino sounds "more natural" than ncore leads me to believe that the tweaking we do AFTER achieving the "amazing specs" (the same tweaking that shaves a bit off the measurements) is worth the additional effort. Our customers don't want to be without their amps either! I guess we're looking for someone who has lots of amps around. Thanks for your post.
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Tommy,
I think Barrows is the perfect person to send your amp to, I have read many posts by him and he always seems very fair in his assessment of gear and very clear of his findings and opinions. I believe you would be doing yourself a big favor if you really believe everything you are saying about your product.
Thanks, but I think we might have a professional reviewer take a crack at this first. I'll keep you posted on that effort.
Our 60V KING Maraschino and In-Line (hanging) Maraschino models haven't been professionally reviewed yet, either, so this is the perfect opportunity to kill two birds with one stone, or maybe three!
Still, if someone local (?) has ncore, I would consider visiting. Unfortunately, we are running low on demo hardware at the moment.
There will be at least one pair of KING Maraschinos at the Lone Star Audio Fest, by the way. It would be a shock if there weren't any module amps available for comparison, and tons of golden ears on hand to do the listening. Plus, after listening, you can go out and have an amazing rib-eye steak. An old friend of mine used to compare amplifiers to steak. He said "just the right amount of salt, and it might be the best thing you ever tasted, but the wrong amount of salt can make it just so-so.".
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Tommy - If Brooklyn isn't too far afield, you're welcome to bring some Maraschinos over for a listen and compare to my own N400s . My implementation is rather nice, if I do say so myself. I could also invite some reviewers over if you're interested. My system is listed in 'systems' below my avatar. FWIW
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AP-2 measurements of the NC-400 modules are posted at the Hypex website: if you want to compare those measurements to that of the Cherry amps, post 'em up! I think it is only fair that if readers are expected to trust your measurements of your own amps, that they should also be trusting of Hypex's measurements of their amps.
As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around. For me, my Ncore stereo amp is the amp I use in my system every day, I really do not want to be without it for the few weeks such a trip would require.
Further, "mgalusha" has confirmed the Hypex measurements with his dScope. They're real. Perhaps you should send your (Marashino) to him. At least then it's an unbiased party. At the end of the day though, you seem to care more about Ncore so maybe you should just buy them. :P
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AP-2 measurements of the NC-400 modules are posted at the Hypex website: if you want to compare those measurements to that of the Cherry amps, post 'em up! I think it is only fair that if readers are expected to trust your measurements of your own amps, that they should also be trusting of Hypex's measurements of their amps.
As a manufacturer, if you want someone to make a subjective/listening test comparison of Cherry amps vs. Ncore, I think you are going to have to assume the risk/effort of lending out an amp to an Ncore owner, not the other way around. For me, my Ncore stereo amp is the amp I use in my system every day, I really do not want to be without it for the few weeks such a trip would require.
+10
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I can say I was a first adopter of the NC 400 mono with 600 power supplies. Built it in about 3 hours, but I had some experience in building much more complex equipment so it was obviously fairly simple. (This included machining chassis for the connectors etc...)
The NCore is nice from the perspective that it's advanced in a way getting you good power, efficiency, reasonable quality, semi-reasonable pricing, but my opinion still a very high price for DIY.
However, I can tell you absolute "Musicality" is not its strong suit, and not a ton of tweaks or mods will do a lot of justice to it. If you want a very stable, and somewhat easy/reliable "Neutral" amp whatever that means the Ncore is that.
But I hate to say compared to even something like the JOB 225 which sonically was similar in some ways solid state approaches any system in tone, but still for the money the JOB built direct from the factory is a better unit, and will hold much better value. So if your looking at these type of advanced SS designs that is the one to go with. Be careful with the VERY high gain though.
Even better amps in my opinion for far less money are the Modded DNA series by McCormack also popular amongst most of this same crowd of "Want it all for less" audio enthusiasts. I have owned several of all these mentioned.
Musicality is a difficult thing to measure, and Ncore is no doubt flat as a pancake when it comes to specs. but unfortunately perfect specs. only go so far, and go ahead and trust those for High definition Video monitors not so much for audio.
By the way nothing really out there in the NEO-compact Class D world can easily touch well designed Tubes to this day from almost everything I have used coming from pure Class A Clayton mono blocks, Threshold, Mcintosh, Conrad Johnson etc... accept maybe FM Acoustics which is nowhere in the price ranges we are talking here.
Again this is my opinion and experience, but sometimes you just get lucky, and a great matching speaker to any amp will perform on an equal level as good as any other.
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A few years ago there were 2 similar speaker designs by 2 manufacturers launching their respective products, and a fair bit of buzz on the various forums as to which was better. But nobody had a pair of both to compare so it was all speculation.
I had a pair of one of the speakers and posted how I liked them. I was contacted by the manufacturer of the other speaker who had been reading the various threads. He offered to ship me his product, he would pay shipping, and all he asked was for me to listen and compare and to post my impressions in one specific thread. When I was done he would pay for return shipping. Never took my credit card, etc.
Obviously he was supremely confident in his product. It turns out for good reason.
Who were the two speaker manufacturers?
You might have noticed that I am also "supremely confident" in Cherry Amplifiers. (:
You raise a good point, and we have done such things in the past with the "big Cherry".
We make premium products, but our prices are very reasonable because our margins MUCH lower than the "big guys" (not greedy? less overhead? yes!).
By developing our own technology and using it in a finished product, we are able to use better parts and higher quality local (inherently expensive) vendors. Long-term, that allows us to offer some really agressive deals. So....
During the past few years, we have sold many amps under our standard 30-day trial policy. Occasionally, we offer demo amps as trials with great deals. We did recently, and now we're forced to allocate portions of new builds to demos.
Thanks for your kind post.
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AmpDesigner 333 -
You sound over-confident, maybe a little scared. Naturally I have no idea about your circumstances but you come on way to strong for my tastes.
Yeah, I know, don't read it if I don't like it. Then again, I imagine you have your own circle so you can attract readers like me. So, you can blow me off if you like. I'm not a customer and not likely to become one. I am, however, an observer with an opinion you might wish to consider. What's with your Ncore obsession? Just concentrate on your own product and stop chasing ghosts. Rather than worry about Hypex Ncore amps, you might better worry about the fact that they don't even notice you.
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But I hate to say compared to even something like the JOB 225 which sonically was similar in some ways solid state approaches any system in tone, but still for the money the JOB built direct from the factory is a better unit, and will hold much better value. So if your looking at these type of advanced SS designs that is the one to go with. Be careful with the VERY high gain though.
Interesting statements there. That may be a better amp for comparison, too. Is this a Class-AB design? From what I can tell, it's NOT a pre-fab module amp either. They have a much more "Cherry Like" business model. Pretty crappy website, but that probably means they are passing the savings on a web designer to their customers. I wonder why the 225's SNR is only rated at 100dB, though. Ncore and Maraschino are in the 120dB zone, which is worlds away. Great post. Thanks.
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The Job 225 is made by "Goldmund". Yes the famed very expensive Swiss manufacturer.
http://www.goldmund.com/en (http://www.goldmund.com/en)
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Who were the two speaker manufacturers?
The one that sent me the speaker was Eric Alexander from Tekton
You might have noticed that I am also "supremely confident" in Cherry Amplifiers. (:
Um, yes, I noticed :D
See you at LSAF
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AmpDesigner 333 -
You sound over-confident, maybe a little scared. Naturally I have no idea about your circumstances but you come on way to strong for my tastes.
Yeah, I know, don't read it if I don't like it. Then again, I imagine you have your own circle so you can attract readers like me. So, you can blow me off if you like. I'm not a customer and not likely to become one. I am, however, an observer with an opinion you might wish to consider. What's with your Ncore obsession? Just concentrate on your own product and stop chasing ghosts. Rather than worry about Hypex Ncore amps, you might better worry about the fact that they don't even notice you.
I'm not going to ignore you, and I appreciate your honesty ---- and the time it took to post your thoughts.
Someone recently said they also thought I was over confident, then after hearing the Maraschino said they were wrong.
Note the number of threads on this board. Some are 30+ pages long. 100,000+ page reads.... Only one two-pager about comparing Maraschino to ncore. NOT an obsession.
You're completely wrong when you say "they don't even notice you".
My customers appreciate my vigilance, big time! Take a look at the reviews.
By the way, you come on a little too strong for my tastes. Just kidding (:
Thanks, and have a nice weekend.
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The one that sent me the speaker was Eric Alexander from Tekton
Um, yes, I noticed :D
See you at LSAF
Can't say the other one?
Thanks.
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Can't say the other one?
Thanks.
The other was Zu, but the story was about Tekton sending me the speakers. That's why I only mentioned Tekton.
I had an excellent customer experience with the guys at Zu...since I'm mentioning them. Hey, if you ain't got nothin' nice to say, right?
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The other was Zu, but the story was about Tekton sending me the speakers. That's why I only mentioned Tekton.
I had an excellent customer experience with the guys at Zu...since I'm mentioning them. Hey, if you ain't got nothin' nice to say, right?
Sean at Zu is a great guy.
Thanks for your posts on this thread. Hope to see you around more on my board.
I was just telling my son I'm so tempted to post "My parents taught me if you ain't got nothin' nice....."!!!! Great minds think alike.
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My buddy Rex and I have gone through a ton of amps the last few years, we even had the tour Ncore amps here with the 1k triode Pete wires. There was a big problem at my place, AC distortion made me quit listening very fast. At Rex's house they sounded much better. Both of us would have bought a pair two years ago, but neither thought they sounded as good as the hype.
I too thought Tommy here was being over bragging on his Marashino's, that is probably why I signed up for the demo deal, just to prove Tommy was wrong. I did drag my feet for a couple of weeks but I told Rex about it also. Rex went on the net and searched every review that he could find, not one negative anywhere from owners to any the publications. Rex actually signed up before me. I then quickly did a search for used ones anywhere on the net, there were none, present or in history past.
We both have had the Job 225 amps. I had the early version, Rex owned the second version. Rex got to compare the two at his place, he said mine was much better. The Goldmund company told me there would be a slight degradation in sound, so I never had mine modified. In comparison to these Marashino's, it is not close. The Job amp was very noisy compared to the Marashino's. The noise floor is much lower. Soundstage is larger, bass is much better. The 48v Marashino's is very lush, very tube like.
Rex now owns the Vinnie Rossi LIO, he says that is very good sounding, but he likes the Marashino's even more. He says the Marashino's have more magic. Rex likes to run his LIO has a pre while using the Marashino's as his main amps. Rex has owned so many amps in his lifetime, I doubt if anyone here can match him.
Like I said, if the Ncores would have sounded as good as these Marashino's, Rex and I would have bought them a long time ago. They just don't have the same magic.
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The Maraschinos sound like an iron fist in a velvet glove. The nCores sound like bleach being poured into my eyes. I thought I hated all digital amps till I heard the DAC amps at RMAF last year. Love it when my preconceptions get crushed like that.
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Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...
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Very little in the way of actual comparisons here, I am willing to do it, level matched, in the same system, with both amps kept warmed up, etc... All I need is the loaner Cherry stereo amp suitable for comparison with an NC-400 based stereo amp.
It is funny though, that an amp manufacturer who appears to believe that measurements are all important (see that other thread) is looking for subjective comparisons. From the measurements I have seen, both Cherry and Ncore have distortion and noise levels which would suggest they are "perfect" in terms of the audibility of problems. The Ncore distortion numbers are even lower than Cherry...
Still, I would love to make a comparison in my system and report on the subjective experience.
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Very little in the way of actual comparisons here, I am willing to do it, level matched, in the same system, with both amps kept warmed up, etc... All I need is the loaner Cherry stereo amp suitable for comparison with an NC-400 based stereo amp.
It is funny though, that an amp manufacturer who appears to believe that measurements are all important (see that other thread) is looking for subjective comparisons. From the measurements I have seen, both Cherry and Ncore have distortion and noise levels which would suggest they are "perfect" in terms of the audibility of problems. The Ncore distortion numbers are even lower than Cherry...
Still, I would love to make a comparison in my system and report on the subjective experience.
We will keep you in mind. We have many offers to do reviews at this time. This is why I mentioned that we are running low on demos. More hardware will be available in a few weeks. We are hoping some comparisons can take place at LSAF. Thanks again for your kind post.
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this will also be at the lone star audio fest.
http://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/digital-power-amp-2/
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Thanks to Tom and Tyson for their kind posts. I'm humbled by your enthusiasm. Unfortunately, it's tough for a brand that is non-mainstream in this market. It's listeners like you that make it all worth while (:
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this will also be at the lone star audio fest.
http://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/digital-power-amp-2/
As with the JOB225, I wonder why SNR is on the low side with the Essence amp. Maraschino and nCore have 20dB-ish lower noise, which is a whole different ball game. Otherwise, the specs are pretty impressive. Thanks for your post. Please don't hesitate to explain more about the KING Marachinos at LSAF, like what they'll be driving.....
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Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...
Yes some prefer a colored sound to the source over neutral to the source. This is akin to your favorite band playing at different venues. There is always a better room for live performance.
Better meaning one's subjective likes and dislikes. For me personally it is as close to the truth of a real acoustic instrument un-amplified in a familiar room. Like my trumpet playing or my Son playing guitar in between my speakers.
The source in now controlled for me to get it. A Cd or LP or whatever source is a mystery to us since we were not at the recording venue. So moot actually for reference IMO.
Julf your getting it personal preference based on hands on experience.
charles
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Very little in the way of actual comparisons here, I am willing to do it, level matched, in the same system, with both amps kept warmed up, etc... All I need is the loaner Cherry stereo amp suitable for comparison with an NC-400 based stereo amp.
It is funny though, that an amp manufacturer who appears to believe that measurements are all important (see that other thread) is looking for subjective comparisons. From the measurements I have seen, both Cherry and Ncore have distortion and noise levels which would suggest they are "perfect" in terms of the audibility of problems. The Ncore distortion numbers are even lower than Cherry...
Still, I would love to make a comparison in my system and report on the subjective experience.
Amazing how a listening comparison reveals all. Specs are specs hearing is believing. :thumb: Loving it.
charles
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Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...
Maybe we can put a list of "generally considered musical" amps to compare against.
The Maraschino does BOTH transparency and musicality....
Interesting post! Thanks.
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Maybe we can put a list of "generally considered musical" amps to compare against.
The Maraschino does BOTH transparency and musicality....
Interesting post! Thanks.
Transparency even at the lowest volume settings. :thumb:
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As someone who has had the opportunity to play music with a wide variety of groups -- also on the trumpet :) -- as well as alone with a guitar or my girlfriend's banjo, I would have to say that the Maraschinos just sound the most live to me of any amplifier I have run -- true to the sound of instruments and preserving all the music that is to be found within a recording. For me, that IS both transparent and musical.
The Maraschinos take what is fed to them and pump out the most convincing and musical sound I've heard yet in my room, the same room in which I've spent countless hours playing instruments. I love the metaphor of the iron fist in a velvet glove; I think it strikes right at the heart of what I hear as the leading-edge impact of real instruments, followed and filled out by full and true tonality. That this can be generated with a perfect sense of ease with pinpoint accuracy in three-dimensional space is spooky. That this quality comes at a price I can afford is something I never expected. That I recommend a listen to anyone seeking the qualities I have identified at at any price is an understatement.
The measurements suggest that the Maraschinos will work in a very wide range of systems -- I can tell you that they definitely work in mine!
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Some people like neutral transparency. Other people like "musicality" (whatever it really is). More news at 11...
Usually a simple matter of nonflat frequency response.
Speaking of which, for all of the bold subjective boasts by this particular amp's designer, I don't recall seeing the key phrase that separates high fidelity Class D amps from low-fi (sorry, "musical") tube and class D amps: load-invariant frequency response.
Is the designer interested in posting measurements of her/his amps into various loads (and better yet a simulated speaker load like Stereophile uses), or would s/he prefer a fog of vacuous subjective bombast?
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As someone who has had the opportunity to play music with a wide variety of groups -- also on the trumpet :) -- as well as alone with a guitar or my girlfriend's banjo, I would have to say that the Maraschinos just sound the most live to me of any amplifier I have run -- true to the sound of instruments and preserving all the music that is to be found within a recording. For me, that IS both transparent and musical.
The Maraschinos take what is fed to them and pump out the most convincing and musical sound I've heard yet in my room, the same room in which I've spent countless hours playing instruments. I love the metaphor of the iron fist in a velvet glove; I think it strikes right at the heart of what I hear as the leading-edge impact of real instruments, followed and filled out by full and true tonality. That this can be generated with a perfect sense of ease with pinpoint accuracy in three-dimensional space is spooky. That this quality comes at a price I can afford is something I never expected. That I recommend a listen to anyone seeking the qualities I have identified at at any price is an understatement.
The measurements suggest that the Maraschinos will work in a very wide range of systems -- I can tell you that they definitely work in mine!
I agree, and wish to add that the Maraschinos' accurate timbrel portrayal giving the presentation its sense of reality that provides both the transparency and musicality.
Yitzhak
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Usually a simple matter of nonflat frequency response.
Speaking of which, for all of the bold subjective boasts by this particular amp's designer, I don't recall seeing the key phrase that separates high fidelity Class D amps from low-fi (sorry, "musical") tube and class D amps: load-invariant frequency response.
Is the designer interested in posting measurements of her/his amps into various loads (and better yet a simulated speaker load like Stereophile uses), or would s/he prefer a fog of vacuous subjective bombast?
Full specs are on CherryAmp.com (Desktop Maraschino).
Check out this thread too (plots, measurements):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.0
I will explain what we mean by "tweaking for sonics AFTER obtaining excellent bench measurements" there soon, so stay tuned.
"a simple matter of nonflat frequency response" is an over-simplification. You can have perfectly flat response and different sound. Time domain behavior into (or out of) the speaker can be quite different between two amplifiers with the same frequency response, into a simple or complex load. For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?
As time goes on, I'm getting better and better at predicting the sonic effect of various circuit/component changes. This is a matter of experience.
I'm glad you brought up simulated speaker loads. We have used them, but nothing beats listening. A funny aside.... MANY years ago, my business partner at the time was trying to get a consulting gig with Bose. He was much more a money guy than an audio guy. I had contact with Bose twice before, going back to the early 90s, so I knew what they were all about (profit). Anyway, their one amplifier guy, who was trying to learn about Class-D, was obsessed with simulated speaker loads. I remember a conference call when we asked him "why not use an actual speaker in a chamber", and the "simulated load guy" (yes, that's how we referred to him) was obviously offended and just clammed up.
You might want to back up to the parent board and see the other threads regarding Maraschino amps. Lots of great posts and background information, plots, specs, and much more. Thanks for your post.
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I agree, and wish to add that the Maraschinos' accurate timbrel portrayal giving the presentation its sense of reality that provides both the transparency and musicality.
Yitzhak
Thanks, Yitzhak! Hope all is well over there.
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For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?
Ah, and here is the crux of the problem. For the nCore crowd, there can never be such a thing, possibly because nCore gets GREAT measurements from using a truckload of feedback. But hey, he whoever has the best measurements, wins. Right? Hahahaha. Hell, when it measures as good as the nCore, you really don't even have to listen to it, just let it sit there on your bench and admire it....
[/sarcasm]
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Hell, when it measures as good as the nCore, you really don't even have to listen to it, just let it sit there on your bench and admire it....
[/sarcasm]
This is pretty much an insult to those of us who are serious about the sound they get who like the Ncores and don't care a bit about technology or measurements.
I've owned at least 75 quality amps of every type I can think of and heard many dozens more over my 46 years in this hobby.
Some are clearly better than others, but when you get into determining satisfaction, which is the only criteria that matters in the end, matchups are key. Matchups are at the system, room , and listener level.
This is not a sporting event, where there is one "winner". The fact that listener A prefers amp 1 in his system, and listener B likes amp 2 confers almost nothing useful to listener 3.
I won't insult you by denying what you've heard, but your comments about the sound of NCores as you have heard them is nothing like the sound in my system, which I would characterize as transparent, easy and natural. The dozen or more seasoned audiophiles who have heard it and whom also love the sound would agree, such as easystreet:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576)
I use Daedalus speakers, which have an inherently easy sound. In a more aggressive sounding system there may well be better choices.
Just out of curiosity, I'd be happy to try the Cherry amps in my system. Without hearing them in place I wouldn't even hazard a guess if they are better or worse- FOR ME.
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Ouch!! Tyson my man....here you go again...think you just bit some "ears" off :lol:
Cheers..........Mario
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This is pretty much an insult to those of us who are serious about the sound they get who like the Ncores and don't care a bit about technology or measurements.
I've owned at least 75 quality amps of every type I can think of and heard many dozens more over my 46 years in this hobby.
Some are clearly better than others, but when you get into determining satisfaction, which is the only criteria that matters in the end, matchups are key. Matchups are at the system, room , and listener level.
This is not a sporting event, where there is one "winner". The fact that listener A prefers amp 1 in his system, and listener B likes amp 2 confers almost nothing useful to listener 3.
I won't insult you by denying what you've heard, but your comments about the sound of NCores as you have heard them is nothing like the sound in my system, which I would characterize as transparent, easy and natural. The dozen or more seasoned audiophiles who have heard it and whom also love the sound would agree, such as easystreet:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132390.msg1403576#msg1403576)
I use Daedalus speakers, which have an inherently easy sound. In a more aggressive sounding system there may well be better choices.
Just out of curiosity, I'd be happy to try the Cherry amps in my system. Without hearing them in place I wouldn't even hazard a guess if they are better or worse- FOR ME.
Oh not at all jonbee, I highly respect people that choose an amp based on their listening preferences. Obviously I don't share those preferences, but I'm cool with that.
No, my problem is when (some) of the nCore fanboys point to its measurements as some sort of objective truth that their amp is "the best", or if not the "best", at least better than all us unwashed masses of audiophiles that just don't know or understand "the truth" as revealed by superior measurements. THOSE are the people my barbs are directed at.
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Any Maraschinos going to be at AXPONA this week?
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Tyson: I think you may be making a gross oversimplification when you suggest that feedback is responsible for a certain type of amplifier "sound", especially when comparing class D to more traditional A or A/B designs. Feedback means different things to different people. Do you mean global feedback? Or local feedback around a single gain stage? Or perhaps the local feedback around a single amplification device (be it tube or transistor, all devices have local feedback)? And in terms of class D, feedback works in a very different way (at a magnitude higher speed) than it does in a traditional A or A/B amplifier.
I love the sound of simple circuit, class A amplifiers with no global feedback (but, perhaps some feedback around individual stages), but I also love the sound of my Ncore amp after tuning it for my system.
I think the thing is, when someone tests a new component, and drops it into a highly tuned system, it is silly to think things are going to gel right away without re-tuning the system to suit the new component. Example: someone has system featuring a relatively acidic sounding DAC, with loads of detail, neutral speakers, and a warm smooth amp like an old Pass Aleph 30. The system could sound great! But drop an Ncore amp into it and, whammo, the acidic sound of the DAC is revealed, but the Ncore is blamed when all along the very warm/smooth Aleph was balancing out the acid from the DAC...
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So is all of this leading up to a road show?
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I just remebered I promised to try to be less dickish in my opinions, so I'll politely bow out
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Any Maraschinos going to be at AXPONA this week?
It's possible, but we didn't send any for use in that particular show. Thanks for your post.
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do you find power cords make a difference on the maraschino power supplies?
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do you find power cords make a difference on the maraschino power supplies?
I did, using the 48v power supplies. Using Virtue power cables instead of standard cables, the sound is much fuller and more transparent.
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A great AC cable made a huge difference in the way my Cherry sounds and and one to the Channel Islands power supply for my DSpeaker AntiMode. Try any of the cables from VooDoo Audio. The Absolute Sound rated them very highly and I agree with their assessment. Use their cables designed for digital equipment and their "High Ampacity" cables for power amps.
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Full specs are on CherryAmp.com (Desktop Maraschino).
Not impressed. A bit of variance down to the second octave of treble (5-10kHz) into different easy loads. Not something worth moving my 100+ lb ATI monster out of my audio cabinet, that's for sure!
On the plus side, because of the frequency response errors your amp would likely pass an ABX test against an amp with flat frequency response, unless the better amp were EQ'ed to have the same flaws in its FR. So you can actually say that your part sounds different, and even though it's clearly lower fidelity ("fidelity" starts with frequency response; flat FR into loads beyond those presented by typical loudspeakers is a necessary condition for an amp to be a high-fidelity device) at that point it becomes a matter of preference.
I will explain what we mean by "tweaking for sonics AFTER obtaining excellent bench measurements" there soon, so stay tuned.
Where are the excellent measurements you speak of? "Excellent measurements" in an amp must start with load-invariant flat frequency response into loads beyond those presented by typical loudspeakers. Without flat FR, there are only degrees of low-fidelity. With flat FR, then we can move on to the other things that matter, such as noise floor. (But not "THD," which is an utterly worthless metric. Bruno P may sell based on it too...but Stereophile measurements show his nCore really isn't materially different from his UcD, so...)
"a simple matter of nonflat frequency response" is an over-simplification.
Maybe if you would get there you could test that hypothesis. ;)
You can have perfectly flat response and different sound. Time domain behavior into (or out of) the speaker can be quite different between two amplifiers with the same frequency response, into a simple or complex load.
Yawn, that old silly canard again. Now talk about the brand of magic capacitors you use..
For example, have you ever heard a really stringent Class-AB amp with that "way too-much negative feedback sound"?
There are a lot of non-things people who don't care to listen carefully (or just don't have good critical listening skills) imagine they can hear....
As time goes on, I'm getting better and better at predicting the sonic effect of various circuit/component changes. This is a matter of experience.
Indeed. Experience...in marketing!
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So why the hostility?
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It's the same kind of hostility I saw from DS-21 over on Danny Richie's board some time back, claiming marketing stunts there.
I have gained an enormous amount of understanding from respectful discussion here at Audio Circle. I have also put my money down after careful consideration of all that I read, and feel very grateful for the results. I've actually heard the Maraschinos, I don't have ears made of lead, I've had chills from what I've heard with my own ears, and I want others to know that in case they would like to try them for themselves.
But attacking the experience of the designer on his own board -- what's the motivation? I am currently studying psychology; maybe I can learn something from you after all.
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The Ncores are well established. People like them, a lot. And given my own experience with them (they are singing as I type this), I find hyperbolic phrases such as "like bleach in my eyes", well, hyperbolic, and WEIRD. But different strokes I guess, but to me its like Gisselle Bundschen naked and beckoning you is like "bleach in my eyes".
That said, my experience falls in with the vast majority of user reviews. Wonder amps. Marvels of engineering. Product of genius.
Can the same be said of Maraschino and its designer? Is he on par with Bruno Putzeys? That is what I, personally would be asking if I were looking at an alternative, AAAA TIER CLASS D.
That said I'm not emotionally invested in these conversations any more and am pretty much Hypex for Life.
Musicality is what music is for. If your system isnt moving you, find out the problem, but for me, the clarity and effortless transparent power of Ncores is dazzlingly musical.
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rclark says Ncores for life. I was wandering what these forums would be like 20-30 years from now, will the NC fanboys still be here criticizing the ones that do not like the sound of the NCores? It is now over two years and they still believe nothing will ever sound better. Over the last 12 months, I have seen at least two dozen used ones go up for sale here on AC and Audiogon, so everyone is not happy with the sound.
NC Fanboy: What the heck is wrong with you all selling your Ncores? It is impossible to get any amp to sound better, now, or for life. There must be something wrong with your system to sell these amps. Oh, you have the exact same components and cables that I do? Then obviously it is your room. You need to have a room made just like mine. Oh, you do? Then it must be your ears, you must be deaf. Go get yourself a hearing aid.
I guess time will tell.
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Tyson: I think you may be making a gross oversimplification when you suggest that feedback is responsible for a certain type of amplifier "sound", especially when comparing class D to more traditional A or A/B designs. Feedback means different things to different people. Do you mean global feedback? Or local feedback around a single gain stage? Or perhaps the local feedback around a single amplification device (be it tube or transistor, all devices have local feedback)? And in terms of class D, feedback works in a very different way (at a magnitude higher speed) than it does in a traditional A or A/B amplifier.
I love the sound of simple circuit, class A amplifiers with no global feedback (but, perhaps some feedback around individual stages), but I also love the sound of my Ncore amp after tuning it for my system.
I think the thing is, when someone tests a new component, and drops it into a highly tuned system, it is silly to think things are going to gel right away without re-tuning the system to suit the new component. Example: someone has system featuring a relatively acidic sounding DAC, with loads of detail, neutral speakers, and a warm smooth amp like an old Pass Aleph 30. The system could sound great! But drop an Ncore amp into it and, whammo, the acidic sound of the DAC is revealed, but the Ncore is blamed when all along the very warm/smooth Aleph was balancing out the acid from the DAC...
The "feed-backy" sound happens in Class-D too.
We're kind of on a tangent here. Would you mind re-posting? Here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.msg1423191#new
Ahhhhh, revealing source issues by improving the downstream....... You must be a fan of minimalist systems, just like I.
Thanks for your post.
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So is all of this leading up to a road show?
Check out Seth's comments here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131727.msg1423150#msg1423150
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Nope, just more hot air.
Normally, this negative post would just get deleted, but I want everybody to see the kind of negativity that comes from some "contributors".
Fortunately, there are only a few mean spirited AC members. Isn't it ironic how they all seem to have the same posting style and "anonymous" identity?
So here's a great big THANK YOU to the haters that are helping us show what kind of people don't like us. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
:thumb:
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The great majority of people on the circle are really nice people. That is once you get past a few rude haters, and a few who hear magical things in an audio product. I know I've learned a lot from my friends' postings. I hope they/you learn from my experiences too. Audio isn't a contact sport.
Steve
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Sadly, this type of thread always winds up with the same old "objective vs. subjective" debate. These debates never end well. The objective camp point to their specs and state "A is better! My meter says so!" The subjective camp will point to the sound of a given amp, and state that " it sounds more like live music" than "A", because "A" sounds like crap, regardless of what your meter says. :duh:
While I am in full support of good measurements, those alone do not tell the whole story. I honestly do not think the industry has adequately "captured all the necessary parameters" to explain the sound a given set of amps will provide. The amp's interaction with the speaker can and does vary some for each speaker. Better designed amps will suffer less from this than ones with more pedestrian designs. The speaker's interaction with the room is FAR more important in the overall sound.
My preference for amps tends towards well designed tube amps with higher power outputs (80 watts or greater). I've heard good sounding amps of all types of topologies. I have heard a couple of Class D amps that I thought were good sounding (Yamaha MX-D1). At the end of the day, IMHO, with my system, the tube amps just get closer to the illusion of re-creating a musical event.
Trying to argue about which two amps are better is an exercise in futility. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing: "It won't work, and just annoys the pig".
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My Daddy always told me "don't knock it till you try it."
So I did. :thumb:
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My Daddy always told me "don't knock it till you try it."
So I did. :thumb:
I agree,I did that when cherry first started,alot of components change in my system except Cherry amp and SP Tech speakers stay. :thumb:
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I agree,I did that when cherry first started,alot of components change in my system except Cherry amp and SP Tech speakers stay. :thumb:
Check this out:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133789.0
Maybe it's time to give the new Cherry a try.