[gagelle]

I read several reviews and blogs where it was suggested that some power conditioners affect sound in a negative way. I wish I had all the links to these articles but in one of them, the reviewer wrote that the manufacturer of an amplifier under his review, recommended plugging it directly into a wall outlet, without even using  a surge protector. Another reviewer experimented with several methods of connecting his amplifier. His power conditioner made the sound worse than a bare wall outlet connection. He finally found a conditioner that made the sound better. I looked up the brand. The retail price was close to $20,000! Needless to say, these opinions add to an already confusing topic.

My own situation is limited because I live in an apartment with old wiring. I can't do anything like adding a dedicated 20 Amp outlet. I'm currently (No pun intended.) using a top of the line APC power conditioner/ Surge Protector/battery backup. The electricity in my city is dirty and unreliable. We frequently get one second power drops. On a few occasions, the power has come on and off every half minute four or five times. In the summertime, PG&E lowers the voltage during peak summer demand. I detected this on my son's Furman power conditioner. His Furman effectively keeps the voltage steady during these summer periods. The protective circuits in my ModWright KWA-100 SE amplifier are very sensitive and will turn off my amplifier before my APC power conditioner goes to battery power. At one time, I was considering the purchase of a PS audio power regenerator, like the P10. I put it off because I had no idea if it was necessary or would improve my system's performance. Spending $5,000 on a device that isn't needed would be money that I could use do something substantial, like upgrading my turntable. I invite anyone for feedback and advice.

[Folsom]

Many amplifiers with SMPS power supplies don't have any resonation dampening (and I mean at any price level). This can be a problem with power conditioners that also don't feature any. Under those circumstances you'll certainly not like the results if any occur (and some conditioners guarantee it).

Some power conditioners use Y caps from line to safety ground and induce more noise than they remove.

Some big amplifiers pull too hard on the AC, so while not "undersized" some conditioners are not sized for what will sound best with robust connections, wires, and buses.

Even more problematic is sometimes people have trouble adjusting to what proper sound is like because they're so use to the hard sound. Even when there's no loss of dynamics (in some cases there's more available current than before), they are just use to a piece of equipment that was voiced to sound right with lots of noise so the end result from it being incorrect to begin with is a duller experience after - it's a problem with the appliance, not the conditioner in some cases. But also music tends to be a little easier to listen to than some expect, so you find out that not all recordings give you as much as you thought.

In your case I highly suggest you find a power conditioner that works for you. You need one more than most people do. There's a number of companies that do demos (I've even done it).

[Photon46]

Power condiitoning/regeneration is a topic that is hard to discuss in terms of generally applicable effects that are observable across a broad range amplification. You will get both positive and negative opinions from people who have tried power conditioning/regeneration on their amplification. The Audience conditioner I have was highly touted in professional reviews as great on amplifiers, I didn't find that to be the case in my situation. I wouldn't want to live without it on my cd player or preamp though. I use a modified PS Audio P300 for my turntable and phono preamp to very good effect. Unfortunately, I think the only way to see if it's a positive for you is to buy the PS Audio unit and try for yourself. Whether someone else found any given unit to work well or not doesn't mean their findings or taste will be the way you hear things in your situation. That's why I'd be reluctant to buy any product in the power conditioning/regeneration category new, too much risk of losing more money than I'd care to if it doesn't work out. PS Audio units are frequently available on the used market. It does sound as if your A/C power supply is pretty compromised and I'd probably be looking at a power regeneration unit of some variety if I was in your situation. Good luck!

[JimJ]

the reviewer wrote that the manufacturer of an amplifier under his review, recommended plugging it directly into a wall outlet, without even using  a surge protector.

Sounds like a manufacturer I would never, ever consider buying something from.

[Speedskater]

"power conditioner" is an undefined term.  It can mean what ever a manufacture's marketing department want's it to mean. Audiophile power conditioners seldom have meaningful technical specs or test results. On the other hand, testing industrial power line filters in real world conditions has it's challenges also.
In any case, power conditioners are often a solution in search of a problem.

[Speedskater]

Getting back to the frequency response thing. A little bit of background noise or interference can often add what is perceived as definition or brightness. So removing the noise/interference, could seem to diminish high frequency response.

[Folsom]

Getting back to the frequency response thing. A little bit of background noise or interference can often add what is perceived as definition or brightness. So removing the noise/interference, could seem to diminish high frequency response.

That may also be why one says dynamics are less, too.

But I think your silly wrong on power conditioners being a solution looking for a problem. That's like believing the earth is flat at this point. But not all power conditioners will show it; because as you say it's a loose definition.

[audioengr]

Some power conditioners put series inductance in the path of the AC current.  This can definitely impact the di/dt of the current, which reduces transient current to the device.  The result of this is usually reduced dynamics, particularly high frequency.

A second problem can occur if the conditioner puts high inductance between the earth grounds of the outlets on the conditioner.  If the system also has a common-mode filter in any of the digital interconnects, this extra added inductance can cause errors in digital data transfer.

The ONLY "conditioner" that I have found that works well for both digital and analog is the Plasmatron from VHAudio.com.  This is a unique device that is thyratron tube based.  It actually regulates the AC voltage by reducing it slightly.  Wonderful results with any digital components, like DACs.  Not cheap though.

Steve N.

[Folsom]

Some power conditioners put series inductance in the path of the AC current.  This can definitely impact the di/dt of the current, which reduces transient current to the device.  The result of this is usually reduced dynamics, particularly high frequency.

A second problem can occur if the conditioner puts high inductance between the earth grounds of the outlets on the conditioner.  If the system also has a common-mode filter in any of the digital interconnects, this extra added inductance can cause errors in digital data transfer.

The ONLY "conditioner" that I have found that works well for both digital and analog is the Plasmatron from VHAudio.com.  This is a unique device that is thyratron tube based.  It actually regulates the AC voltage by reducing it slightly.  Wonderful results with any digital components, like DACs.  Not cheap though.

Steve N.

Series inductance isn't necessarily bad. If it's improperly done it can be. But if it's not done right it's very likely to melt over a long period of time. It's easy to be assumptive that a simple minor change in reactance would be enough to reduce current at a noticeable level, but resonation is a more likely culprit. Technically speaking the capacitors in the unit are faster than changes from AC supply. For well designed equipment the only appliances that might notice are large current source based class A amps and some AB's, that rarely have remotely high enough capacitance to negate the big pull through the transformer. Note: no one on planet earth has detected a loss in dynamics with 2.4mh series inductance from a CMC.

Can you define high inductance on safety earth between AC receptacles? I would find it unusual to use anything particularly high that can't saturate and pass current during a fault. That's an interesting problem, I'd appreciate more information on it.

I've been curious about the Plasmatron. But I suspect it's benefits come from making everything have tube distortion patterns, and lower peak impedance due to phase stabilization/correction (which might do a lot of good for rectification noise).

[Speedskater]

Many amplifiers with SMPS power supplies don't have any resonation dampening (and I mean at any price level). This can be a problem with power conditioners that also don't feature any. Under those circumstances you'll certainly not like the results if any occur (and some conditioners guarantee it).

Please write some more about this resonant dampening, I'm not familiar with the concept.

Some power conditioners use Y caps from line to safety ground and induce more noise than they remove.

Yes some can dump so much noise current on to the Safety Ground, that the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter trips. US GFCI's are sensitive.

[Speedskater]

But I think your silly wrong on power conditioners being a solution looking for a problem. That's like believing the earth is flat at this point. But not all power conditioners will show it; because as you say it's a loose definition.

The few times that a power conditioner are needed will be vary situation specific!
It may depend on:
a] Time of day & day of the week.
b] Each component in the hi-fi system.
c] Nearby appliances and heating & cooling.
d] Nearby high tech lighting systems.
e] Other nearby entertainment systems.

[audioengr]

Series inductance isn't necessarily bad. If it's improperly done it can be. But if it's not done right it's very likely to melt over a long period of time. It's easy to be assumptive that a simple minor change in reactance would be enough to reduce current at a noticeable level, but resonation is a more likely culprit.

It's always bad IME.

Technically speaking the capacitors in the unit are faster than changes from AC supply.

Not faster than the di/dt.  I have shown over and over that no matter how many and sizes of caps you put in a DC supply, the AC source still matters with di/dt.  Caps are helpful, but not a panacea, not even ultracaps.  Been there, done that.

For well designed equipment the only appliances that might notice are large current source based class A amps and some AB's, that rarely have remotely high enough capacitance to negate the big pull through the transformer. Note: no one on planet earth has detected a loss in dynamics with 2.4mh series inductance from a CMC.

My ears easily tell me that the SQ is better without a conditioner than with.

Can you define high inductance on safety earth between AC receptacles? I would find it unusual to use anything particularly high that can't saturate and pass current during a fault. That's an interesting problem, I'd appreciate more information on it.

I know for a fact that some conditioners do this to reduce ground-loop common-mode noise.  It is trouble depending on the rest of the system.  I would guess that these are probably in the 10's of millihenries.

I've been curious about the Plasmatron. But I suspect it's benefits come from making everything have tube distortion patterns, and lower peak impedance due to phase stabilization/correction (which might do a lot of good for rectification noise).

Don't discount until you have heard it.  It cleans up the audio.  Does not distort.

[Folsom]

The few times that a power conditioner are needed will be vary situation specific!
It may depend on:
a] Time of day & day of the week.
b] Each component in the hi-fi system.
c] Nearby appliances and heating & cooling.
d] Nearby high tech lighting systems.
e] Other nearby entertainment systems.

So if you have utterly perfectly scenario, you're ok? Good luck.

[Folsom]

It's always bad IME.

Not faster than the di/dt.  I have shown over and over that no matter how many and sizes of caps you put in a DC supply, the AC source still matters with di/dt.  Caps are helpful, but not a panacea, not even ultracaps.  Been there, done that.

My ears easily tell me that the SQ is better without a conditioner than with.

I know for a fact that some conditioners do this to reduce ground-loop common-mode noise.  It is trouble depending on the rest of the system.  I would guess that these are probably in the 10's of millihenries.

Don't discount until you have heard it.  It cleans up the audio.  Does not distort.

No one to date has every detected a problem with 2.4mh used on Audience units. The biggest complaint is the unit didn't do enough for the price.

I've never seen anything like 10's of mh's. That sounds like electricution waiting to happen!

Tube distortion changing patterns of distortion would sound like a cleaner, more pleasant, sound. But the phase&impedance factor would probably do the most reduction. But the description would be correct because it doesn't condition, or remove noise, it changes it's development at rectification to be less.

[Folsom]

Please write some more about this resonant dampening, I'm not familiar with the concept.

Yes you are. There's plenty of examples of electrical resonation dampening that I know you've come across.

The CMC's used in SMPS's, (sometimes) linears, and power conditioners tend to create a nice RF storm when there's capacitance on the line before them. It's pretty easy to just add some resistors across the CMC coils (I use flameproof or CC). This has been confirmed among quiet a few people to make a noticeable improvement. I did not think it would work on more simple units that don't have large capacitance in the unit itself, but others said otherwise so now I'm into it. It seems they were correct.

[OBF]

Interesting conversation.  Other than the obvious and measurable benefit of reducing noise via inverting half the voltage and summing to get back to 120v (probably not the correct technical terms), what are the deleterious effects of large balanced transformers?  I know they can restrict current especially to amplifiers.  My 20 amp Furman (fed by a 30amp/120v circuit) did wonders for killing ground loops caused by my cable tv operator.

[G Georgopoulos]

this topic should be send to intergalactic waste bin   

[Folsom]

Btw Steve, I've found that despite what's suppose to be true, the transformer and down-line's current capability does matter, too. But that doesn't mean I'd go against using a CMC.

The real problem is when an amplifier is tuned to sound more detailed because the noise in the system causes bloat on the definition of sound. When you correct this you've got another issue. The amount of dampening and feedback obviously play a big factor here. But in general I find it fascinating when people use capacitors in the unit to tune the sound in that manner. It's inappropriate I think. It causes a lot of mismatching.

[werd]

I have never heard a conditioner improve any of the soundstage qualities I listen for,  air around  instruments, increased clarity of  instuments. What I have I heard them do is apply a dark sonic blanket that tends to shade  any high frequency clammer coming from what ever device that was causing issue. I agree with Steve N on this. When amps are plugged into one  I always hear a compression that sucks dynamics out of it compared to out of the wall. I have not heard them all and I think sometimes using a transformer unit can be helpful if you live far from the local transformer or just have  sagging power issues.

[Folsom]

Transformers won't help with sagging. I'm not a fan of them personally.

I've never heard compression, but I typically turn up the volume to get a little more sensation since I'm not being battered with fatigue that exists in higher registers otherwise. Generally speaking vocals have much more pronounced dynamics that can really lay some emotion into you.

It wouldn't surprise me if the whole system had a decrease in NFB overshoot from all the radiated noise, from power supply, and lack of power factor quality being reduced/eleminated with good power conditioing. But you suddenly realize some albums are not as good as others.