Replacing my Paradigm Studio 60 v.2s

sfox7076 · « **on:** 24 Sep 2008, 04:05 pm »

Hi all, I am relatively new to the Salk world, so I thought it a good idea to get input from those who have the speakers themselves. First, I have had Paradigm Studio 60 v.2s for 6 or 7 years (bought used for $700). At the time I was listening to B&W, Totem, and a litany of other speakers. I wanted to spend $1,500 and got off cheap on a used pair when someone was upgrading. They didn't have the sound of the Totems (Hawks) I was looking at, but the cost was much less. My current setup is an Outlaw 990 pre-amp (could go for the 997 when it comes out, but I don't know yet), an outlaw 770 amplifier, an Arcam CD73t and an Oppo DVD player (likely upgrading to their Blu-Ray player where it is released). The speakers are the Studio 60s, a Studio Center v.2 and my Studio 20 v.2s as surrounds. I have a Hsu subwoofer I plan on keeping. I will be moving at some point in the future, but right now the speakers go in the center of the 25' wall of a 25' x 15' living room (only way to configure it). This is the only physical setup that works in the room.

I have loved the Paradigm speakers for the entire time I have owned them, but in the intervening time since I bought them, I have gotten married. SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) does not love them because 1) their black fake wood veneer is ugly (I agree that the veneer is not pretty); 2) they are heavy as heck; 3) they are quite deep for a Manhattan apartment (placing them 2' from the wall--which is needed to make them worth listening to--has them stick 3' 6" out into the room). The room has all mismatched hardwood furniture, cherry, birch and walnut, so real wood is a plus. I am looking into Salk and Totem Hawks. I plan on using the speakers for 50/50% 2-channel music/home theater. I like the Paradigm sound generally, but it does not have refined bass as it is kind of boomy and thin without a sub. The sound is nice, but there is a lack of transparency in the mids and highs. Also, the speakers need to be toed in to really get the sound to where I like it.

I am in the market at the sub-$3000 a pair level. They need to physically less deep than the Paradigms, real hardwood veneers (or full hardwood), a big plus if the speakers were not overly sensitive to placement (not too far from the wall or require too much toeing in). What are your thoughts?

Shawn

Nuance · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Sep 2008, 06:33 pm »

The SongTower's are deeper than they are wide, FYI.

If you crave the detail and transparency that the studio 60's are missing, I think you'll be pleased with the SongTower's. The midrange detail and transparency is superb, especially at this price range. The bass is also not boomy but rather tight and musical. I was actually quite surprised with how low they go with authority. Transmission line bass is something everyone should experience in my opinion!

Concerning placement, this was another area that I was pleasantly surprised with. I originally had them out about two feet from the back wall and 2-3 from the side wall. But one weekend I decided to play around with placement and placed them 12" from the back walls to see if it would effect imaging, soundstaging and overall detail. Much to my surprise there were no negative effects (smearing of the FR, a smaller soundstage, poorer imaging) , but the in-room bass response improved. Nice! You can put these things pretty close to the walls without having to worry about the rest of the FR getting smeared or overpowered. I left them 12" from the back wall and very much like the results that this placement yielded.

I hope that helps. Whichever speaker you end up with, I hope they bring you as much happiness as my SongTower RT's bring me.

Happy hunting.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Sep 2008, 06:45 pm »

Are they 17" deep though? I read they were only 11 deep.

Shawn

tgp06 · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Sep 2008, 07:16 pm »

Shawn,
Songtowers:
11-3/8"(11-3/4"@ baffle) depth w/o grills
8" wide
10'' W x 15'' D base
47-3/4" height on spikes
Exremely forgiving re room placement
Tom

sfox7076 · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Sep 2008, 10:41 pm »

I wonder how she will feel about the height.

Also, I have an eclectic mix of music, but usually listen to folk rock/alt-country kind of music. Josh Ritter is the best example.

Any thoughts on which way to go speaker wise? I wish I could hear the Salks. While I live in NYC, it isn't always easy to find a person who has what you want to hear.

Shawn

timind · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Sep 2008, 11:27 pm »

I owned a pair of Studio 60v.2s a few years ago (more like 7 years). For me they always came across as too bright, too much treble energy. When I replaced mine one of the earliest speakers that really worked were Vandersteen 1Cs. But as you don't seem to find the 60s bright the Vandys probably aren't for you.
I would recommend something like Proac D15s. I had the Response 1.5s which preceded the D15s and they will give you all the getail you could want but don't grate on the ears. Also, they have very respectable bass. As for the quality of the wood finish, absolutely gorgeous. Here's a link to the spec sheet http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/pt_res_1pt5.php.
Click on the gallery link below for a pic. Good luck and enjoy the hunt.

Nuance · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 03:29 am »

Quote from: sfox7076 on 24 Sep 2008, 10:41 pm

I wonder how she will feel about the height.

Also, I have an eclectic mix of music, but usually listen to folk rock/alt-country kind of music. Josh Ritter is the best example.

Any thoughts on which way to go speaker wise? I wish I could hear the Salks. While I live in NYC, it isn't always easy to find a person who has what you want to hear.

Shawn

In my opinion Josh Ritter will sound amazing on the ST's. I've never heard midrange detail and transparency like this on a speaker under 3-4 thousand. If your wife is willing, call Jim and ask him any questions you need to. He's a very helpful guy and will take the time to fully explain anything you need. Also, remember that Salk offers a 30-day trial period. If you don't like them just contact Salk and send them back. At least you won't always ponder whether or not the SongTower's would have been the speaker you were always searching for.

If you live in NYC you should be able to get in touch with someone local who owns some Salk products. Just make an audition request thread or post here and at AVSforum.

Again, whatever you go with I hope you love it! Good luck.

evan1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 04:16 am »

song towers and Ht 3's are alive and well in Staten Island only a 20 min ferry ride from NYC shoot me a pm and we can set something up

evan1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 04:18 am »

Quote from: evan1 on 25 Sep 2008, 04:16 am

song towers and Ht 3's are alive and well in Staten Island only a 20 min ferry ride from NYC shoot me a pm and we can set something up

Quote from: sfox7076 on 24 Sep 2008, 10:41 pm

I wonder how she will feel about the height.

Also, I have an eclectic mix of music, but usually listen to folk rock/alt-country kind of music. Josh Ritter is the best example.

Any thoughts on which way to go speaker wise? I wish I could hear the Salks. While I live in NYC, it isn't always easy to find a person who has what you want to hear.

Shawn

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 02:38 pm »

Nuance has already answered most of your questions rather well. I don’t have anything new to add other than to confirm what he said about placement of SongTowers. Unlike most other speakers I’ve heard, SongTowers are much less sensitive to how close or far they are from walls.

Depending on how speakers are designed, they usually must be placed close to the wall behind them, or must be placed at least 1½' away from the wall, as you had found with your Paradigms. Read Jim Salk’s explanation of this http://www.salksound.com/bsc.html.

It was an unexpected benefit of the transmission line design of SongTowers when Dennis Murphy (and now many others) found that SongTowers do not have muddy or boomy sounding bass when placed close to the wall behind them. It seems to me that this feature (among others) is just what you are looking for in new speakers. You can place SongTowers closer to the wall without compromising sound quality, unlike what your Paradigms require. The SongTowers' shallower depth also helps keep them from taking up valuable floorspace. I don’t understand what you mean when you say that new speakers must be physically deeper than your 17" Paradigms.

It’s also really great to see evan1 offer a listening session with his Salk speakers. I guess this is typical of happy Salk owners – they can’t wait to show their speakers off. You should take him up on his offer. Reading about these speakers on the internet is a poor substitute for seeing and hearing them in person.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 04:13 pm »

I meant to say "physically less deep" I don't want them to stick 4' out into the room like the Paradigms do.

Shawn

tgp06 · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Sep 2008, 05:15 pm »

My STs are currently set up 26" from the back wall;37.5" from speaker front to back wall(dictated by a partially finished tile floor). Previously had them in a much smaller room set at 13" from back wall;24.5" speaker front to back wall. They work well in both locations with excellent soundstaging and no bass boom, despite realistic and surprisingly deep bass. Don't be afraid to listen to HT-3s...very similar sonic signature. You can thoroughly enjoy the STs without neurosing...while still dreaming about a distant future with HT-3s(like me!).
Tom

sfox7076 · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 01:22 pm »

OK, so I am turning 31 and may have decided to increase my budget. If you were doing 50% music, 50% HT, would you go with the HT3 or the Songtowers? Something else? I am going to take Evan up on his offer and go hear them sometime soon, but I just wonder what other people think.

Shawn

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: sfox7076 on 26 Sep 2008, 01:22 pm

OK, so I am turning 31 and may have decided to increase my budget. If you were doing 50% music, 50% HT, would you go with the HT3 or the Songtowers? Something else? I am going to take Evan up on his offer and go hear them sometime soon, but I just wonder what other people think.

Shawn

Don't go. It will cost you more money for the HT3's!

mcullinan · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 02:11 pm »

Quote from: sfox7076 on 26 Sep 2008, 01:22 pm

OK, so I am turning 31 and may have decided to increase my budget. If you were doing 50% music, 50% HT, would you go with the HT3 or the Songtowers? Something else? I am going to take Evan up on his offer and go hear them sometime soon, but I just wonder what other people think.

Shawn

Did you increase your budget because you are 31? hehe. What will you do at 32?
Mike

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 02:20 pm »

Shawn

Happy birthday! A nice set of Salk speakers sounds like a great birthday present.

You have the rare opportunity to listen to both the HT3 and the SongTower. When you hear them, I would be surprised if you didn’t like the HT3 better. It will have deeper bass, the detailed midrange that the SEAS magnesium midrange does so well, and the clean clarity of the G2 ribbon tweeter. It comes at a big price increase over the SongTower. Only you can decide if the extra cost is worth it. Others, including myself, are very happy with the SongTowers. Both speakers share the benefit of Dennis Murphy’s crossover touch or “voicing” for lack of a better word. Both speakers come with Jim Salk’s quality veneers and finish that is rarely matched in other speakers. You will soon see that.

Remember to ask Evan what amplifiers he uses to drive these speakers. An additional cost of owning HT3s is the large powerful amplifier they seem to require. I’m sure others will chime in with their experience on this. In contrast, the SongTower will certainly work very well with the Outlaw rig you now have. Is that the Outlaw 770 or 7700 amp you have? Was that a typo, or is the 770 an older model? Outlaw says the 7700 is can do 200 wpc at 8 ohms and 300 at 4 ohms. There are some other amps with power specs like this that go into overload protection with the HT3s. I'm not sure how well the Outlaw amp will do for that.

A third issue is floor placement that you mentioned in your original post. The HT3 probably does better when placed away from walls, while the SongTower does well in a variety of positions. The HT3 has a larger footprint and is much heavier than the SongTower.

A fourth issue is availability. All the parts for the SongTowers are readily available. In the past there was a supply delay with the large woofer in the HT3. I’m not sure if that delay continues.

Have fun deciding!

Richard

sfox7076 · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 04:57 pm »

The 770 is the same as the 7700 except that the 770 does not have balanced inputs, only unbalanced. It is 300 watts into a 4 ohm load. With the two toridial power supplies in it, I would hope it would not go into overload mode. I guess it is possible though. I actually worry more about my apartment's breaker being able to handle the increased draw... I love my rented pre-war apartment. I hate its power. I personally had to put the three prong plugs in (woo hoo asbestos coated wires)... So annoying. Anyway, I have a power filter and all, but I worry about the power draw too. Anyway, of course the Outlaw would be there for a few more years and then something more refined would come in if I went for the HT-3s. I wouldn't want to have to shell out for a new amp at the same time though.

Shawn

Nuance · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 05:15 pm »

Quote from: R Swerdlow on 26 Sep 2008, 02:20 pm

Shawn

Happy birthday! A nice set of Salk speakers sounds like a great birthday present.

You have the rare opportunity to listen to both the HT3 and the SongTower. When you hear them, I would be surprised if you didn’t like the HT3 better. It will have deeper bass, the detailed midrange that the SEAS magnesium midrange does so well, and the clean clarity of the G2 ribbon tweeter. It comes at a big price increase over the SongTower. Only you can decide if the extra cost is worth it. Others, including myself, are very happy with the SongTowers. Both speakers share the benefit of Dennis Murphy’s crossover touch or “voicing” for lack of a better word. Both speakers come with Jim Salk’s quality veneers and finish that is rarely matched in other speakers. You will soon see that.

Remember to ask Evan what amplifiers he uses to drive these speakers. An additional cost of owning HT3s is the large powerful amplifier they seem to require. I’m sure others will chime in with their experience on this. In contrast, the SongTower will certainly work very well with the Outlaw rig you now have. Is that the Outlaw 770 or 7700 amp you have? Was that a typo, or is the 770 an older model? Outlaw says the 7700 is can do 200 wpc at 8 ohms and 300 at 4 ohms. There are some other amps with power specs like this that go into overload protection with the HT3s. I'm not sure how well the Outlaw amp will do for that.

A third issue is floor placement that you mentioned in your original post. The HT3 probably does better when placed away from walls, while the SongTower does well in a variety of positions. The HT3 has a larger footprint and is much heavier than the SongTower.

A fourth issue is availability. All the parts for the SongTowers are readily available. In the past there was a supply delay with the large woofer in the HT3. I’m not sure if that delay continues.

Have fun deciding!

Richard

+1 Great advice and lots of good information here. Well said.

Shawn, happy birthday man! So when is your audition scheduled for? I sure hope it's worth your time. Enjoy bud!

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Sep 2008, 05:17 pm »

Maybe I overstated things a bit when I said "There are some other amps with power specs like this that go into overload protection with the HT3s. I'm not sure how well the Outlaw amp will do for that."

I should have said "There is at least one other amp (that I know of) with similar power specs to your amp that goes into overload protection when the HT3s are driven loud. Your Outlaw 770 amp may be fine with the HT3, but I can't be sure about that."

There are HT3 owners who use HT receivers and are happy with that, but more often it seems that HT3 owners want greater amp power than what they originally had.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Oct 2008, 11:58 am »

After talking to Jim and the wife, the SongTowers it will be. I am now deciding between ribbon and dome tweeters. I listen to mostly the alt country genre. Nuance, do you think there is an advantage to the ribbon tweeter with this kind of music? Kathleen Edwards is often played on my system. I wonder what your thoughts are.

Shawn