AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: headshrinker2 on 23 Aug 2011, 04:06 pm
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Greetings everyone,
I am meeting with an electrician later this week to discuss a household project. I currently plug my 2-channel audio gear into a power strip (Wiremold) which is then plugged directly into a wall socket. I'm considering upgrading the socket and/or having a dedicated line put in.
Suggestions?
Thanks
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Definitely a dedicated line with a receptacle just for the one circuit. If you can do two receptacles on two circuits even better.
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Definitely a dedicated line with a receptacle just for the one circuit. If you can do two receptacles on two circuits even better.
+1
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Thanks Phil. How would one utilize two receptacles on two circuits?
Any specific instructions I should give the electrician? Any thing I might want to consider for the outlet?
Definitely a dedicated line with a receptacle just for the one circuit. If you can do two receptacles on two circuits even better.
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How would one utilize two receptacles on two circuits?
He will know.
Any specific instructions I should give the electrician?
Be neat and clean. :wink: These are really basic things for a licensed electrician.
Some will mention that the circuit(s) should be on the opposite side of your dryer, furnace, fridge.....
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Hello,
If you are going to do this you should take it a step further and go for 10 gauge wire and go for a isolated ground for the outlet if he's already running the wire.
I had this done and I think it makes a difference.
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck.
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If you are going to do a run of romex, I would use 12/3 because it is twisted in the jacket. Here is a link about 12/3: http://www.eiwellspring.org/ChoosingHouseholdWiring.pdf
(http://www.eiwellspring.org/ChoosingHouseholdWiring.pdf)
Dave
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Definitely a dedicated line with a receptacle just for the one circuit. If you can do two receptacles on two circuits even better.
Ummmm, that 2nd circuit will greatly increase the likelyhood of ground loop hum and noise. If those outlets with individual circuits are a couple of feet from your panel, its probably not a problem. Each separate circuit from your panel will have, by Code, its own safety ground wire running back to the panel. If distant from the panel, you are, by definition, increasing the ground loop length and the associated voltage drop and current flow on the ground.
FWIW, YMMV,
Paul
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"Occam" has it exactly correct!
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Thanks Phil. How would one utilize two receptacles on two circuits?
You can separate digital and analog devices. For example if you have an analog preamp and power amp they may go on one circuit. Digital devices on another.
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Thanks everyone. Much obliged.
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If you want to be a bit extreme, you can ask the electrician to mount a separate circuit box from the mains. I know of one person that had a separate line and meter run from the power company's transformer. :icon_lol:
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If you want to be a bit extreme, you can ask the electrician to mount a separate circuit box from the mains...
Its not extreme at all, if your system is any distance from your main panel, and you must have multiple circuits without a high probability of ground loops.
Your electrician would simply install a 'main lug' panel in (near) your AV room connecting it to your main breaker panel via an appropriate breaker in the main breaker panel. From that lug panel, the electrician would simply run multiple circuits with their own, appropriate breakers. [He also needs to remember to remove the neutral-ground bonding strap on the main lug panel].
As all the safety grounds of those circuits meet at the local main lug panel, the ground loop lengths are minimized, and will minimize the potential for ground loops and noise.
FWIW,
Paul
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Thanks again everyone. This very experienced electrician (he's trained a bunch of successful electricians over the years) has minimal experience doing what we are talking about. He is open to any/all instructions and I will probably have him return to install the dedicated line.
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You can put this Zero Surge (http://www.zerosurge.com/productspecs/ff1_20w_V2_etl.pdf) filter while you are at it and protect your audio gear.
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Can anyone give me a ballpark cost for installing a dedicated line? I realize it will vary by geography, size of house, condition of electrical circuits, but please give me a rough estimate.
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Can anyone give me a ballpark cost for installing a dedicated line? I realize it will vary by geography, size of house, condition of electrical circuits, but please give me a rough estimate.
$150-$750 It will depend on access. This is of course if you have enough room in your panel.
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Thanks.
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Greetings everyone,
I am meeting with an electrician later this week to discuss a household project. I currently plug my 2-channel audio gear into a power strip (Wiremold) which is then plugged directly into a wall socket. I'm considering upgrading the socket and/or having a dedicated line put in.
Suggestions?
Thanks
What do you think a dedicated line(s) are going to accomplish for you? There are lots of noise makers in your home already, and they are connected to your panel. Adding one more branch circuit will solve nothing, except for ampacity. I personally think you are better off treating what ever symptoms you have at your local outlet, or do you not have any symptoms?
The dedicated line is way over the head hype in my opinion and generally does nothing to solve most home bound noise inducers, like furnaces, refrigerators, AC units, lighting dimers and stuff like that. It just isn't that magic pill to cure all that everyone suggests. Besides, there is plenty of noise coming in from the street. How are you going to take care of that? The dedicated line wont fix anything like that.
Wayner
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What do you think a dedicated line(s) are going to accomplish for you? There are lots of noise makers in your home already, and they are connected to your panel. Adding one more branch circuit will solve nothing, except for ampacity. I personally think you are better off treating what ever symptoms you have at your local outlet, or do you not have any symptoms?
The dedicated line is way over the head hype in my opinion and generally does nothing to solve most home bound noise inducers, like furnaces, refrigerators, AC units, lighting dimers and stuff like that. It just isn't that magic pill to cure all that everyone suggests. Besides, there is plenty of noise coming in from the street. How are you going to take care of that? The dedicated line wont fix anything like that.
Wayner
You must be kidding. Again....Wayner. All you seem to do lately is bash every post you comment on. Especially when the information is good.
Adding three dedicated lines made a huge improvement at my house with a flick of new breakers. Background noise went away immediately.
Grow Up. I know everybody always comments on your "Meds Being Wrong" but I call such behavior what it is. Dead wrong. :scratch:
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Well, that's a bit over the top. I have to agree with wayner, I have dedicated circuit; 6ft. from my panel. It didn't perform any miracles. I can still hear the fan, on a totally separate circuit, through my rig.
Doc
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Well, that's a bit over the top. I have to agree with wayner, I have dedicated circuit; 6ft. from my panel. It didn't perform any miracles. I can still hear the fan, on a totally separate circuit, through my rig.
Doc
Do you have an isolated ground on the dedicated line?
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The isolated ground is still connected in the panel.
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My advice would be to put the money for the separate circuit into a conditioner instead. Wayner does make sense. We have experimented using both configurations. The biggest difference heard was with the conditioner in place over a separate circuit. Having both may be different however we could not hear a benifit. For digital an isolation transformer and line conditioner.
charles
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Hi.
Adding three dedicated lines made a huge improvement at my house with a flick of new breakers. Background noise went away immediately.
Yes, RFI should be reduced substantially due to much much shorter run of the powerlines+ground wires to the contactor panel, bypassing the miles-long looping of the existing powelines/ground wires behind the walls/underneath the floor.
Also make sure you also add inline RFI filter to each dedicated powerline to yr audio rig like what I have done many years back.
With dedicated powerlines, no need of spending big money on any costly power conditioners as short run of powerlines/ground wires reduce substantially RFI contamination in our audio system.
I only installed a simple linear inline RFI filter (insertion loss=52dB at 32MHz, made in England) at each of my 3 dedicated powerlines (2x125V & 1x250V) terminated at dedicated wall outlets. The crucial point is simple linear inline RFI filter do NOT screw up the music!!!!
So shortest run of powelines/ground wires + inline RFI filters will do an excellent job.
c-J
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The isolated ground is still connected in the panel.
So you think isolated grounds don't improve anything either?
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Hi.
So you think isolated grounds don't improve anything either?
How you are going to install "isolated grounds" of yr rig?
For low power application, like home audio, NO need of any isolated grounding at all.
The ground wires of the audio dedicated powerlines should be hooked back up to the contactor panel.
Yet I short cut it. I instructed the licensed electrician who installed my new main contactor panel a few years back, to have the insulated ground wires for the 125V & 250V dedicated powerlines enchored direct to the incoming water mains pipe at my basement floor, sharing the same central grounding point of the contactor panel.
c-J
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What do you think a dedicated line(s) are going to accomplish for you? There are lots of noise makers in your home already, and they are connected to your panel. Adding one more branch circuit will solve nothing, except for ampacity. I personally think you are better off treating what ever symptoms you have at your local outlet, or do you not have any symptoms?
The dedicated line is way over the head hype in my opinion and generally does nothing to solve most home bound noise inducers, like furnaces, refrigerators, AC units, lighting dimers and stuff like that. It just isn't that magic pill to cure all that everyone suggests. Besides, there is plenty of noise coming in from the street. How are you going to take care of that? The dedicated line wont fix anything like that.
Wayner
Wayner: Note your response to a similar thread below. :scratch:
Re: Recommended Power Conditioning for power amps ?
« Reply #3 on: 15 Mar 2008, 02:22 pm »
Quote:
"Most quality amps have very well designed power supplies that take out all of the AC hash. I do like the dedicated outlets (I have them) as in Minnesota, we have furnaces that like to send spikes down the line when they turn on. Having separate dedicated lines to avoid stuff like that is a great idea. Otherwise, I've had some conditioners that actually made more noise than they ever removed"
Wayner :D
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When I built my house in 1993, it was easy to put in dedicated lines. If I build another house, I would probably put in dedicated lines. However, this was not the case with this thread. The homeowner will likely see a very huge bill, for something that may not have any return. Since my 2008 post (the old post you searched and searched for,(OCD?)), proves that advice changes with regards to the situation.
There have also been improvements in power conditioning products, such as Frank's Humdinger, and other lines conditioners that I have found since then, that kind of make having dedicated lines no big deal.
I find it interesting how some people are so bent on advising others how to spend money on projects such as these. Of course the adviser doesn't have to pay the bill or live with the fact that lots of money was spent and the results may not have changed anything other then a bank statement.
I offer my opinions to make the OP reconsider his project, and to entertain other directions as a solution to his problem. I know that some people like to prod a jumper into jumping.
Wayner
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Hello,
I don't know but i put in the isolated lines and i did not connect the ground to the electrically panel but a separate grounding rod that was grounded into the earth. I believe that is within code and never had any ground loop problems at all unless you introduce something that was not on the same ground. Also in my experience doing this project was well worth it and any my system never sounded better.
So i think it goes to show that not every one has the same experience and you just have to make up your own mind based on the info that is out there.
Once again, Good Luck
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Hi.
(1) The dedicated line is way over the head hype in my opinion and generally does nothing to solve most home bound noise inducers, like furnaces, refrigerators, AC units, lighting dimers and stuff like that. It just isn't that magic pill to cure all that everyone suggests.
(2) Besides, there is plenty of noise coming in from the street. How are you going to take care of that? The dedicated line wont fix anything like that.
Wayner
Nothing under the sun can be a "cure all". But a combination of several cures will make things happen.
(1) Yes, all home appliances, e.g. fridge, range, washer, dryer, etc etc are digitally controlled &
emit RFI to the powerlines via their power cords. To stop our household powerlines from such
RFI contaminations, an effective yet cheapie way is to snap on RFI ferrous ring suppressors to
the power cords of those appliances. I've installed one to EACH & every power cord of
ALL my household appliances since day one.
(2) Yes, RFI can be airborne from nearby RFI sources. Worst of all is the house located too close
to cell relay towers & the like RF stations. The powerlines looping inside the walls &
underneath the floor are excellent RFI receiving antennae & can get badly RF polluted.
So short dedicated powerlines for our audio rig is a very effective way to bypass
the miles-long loop of the polluted household powerlines.
With the above RFI situation, I would never want to get any power from any household wall
outlets for my audio rig. Just like drinking water from a sewer!
Failure to install short dedicated powerlines, power conditioners are therefore a must
to stop RFI from entering our audio rig from the polluted household powerlines.
Then we start to worry such conditioners likely screwing up the music let alone the cost of
acquiring one.
c-J
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Hello,
I don't know but i put in the isolated lines and i did not connect the ground to the electrically panel but a separate grounding rod that was grounded into the earth. I believe that is within code and never had any ground loop problems at all unless you introduce something that was not on the same ground. .................
Once again, Good Luck
No it's not with-in code! It's extremely DANGEROUS !!!!
The 'Safety Ground's' real purpose is to trip the circuit breaker (right now) if there is a short circuit! It needs to be connected to the ground point in the main circuit breaker box (panel board) where the Neutral is connected to the Ground (ECG & GEC).
Electrician's sometimes just for fun connect a 120V Hot wire to a separate grounding rod. Guess what happens? Often nothing happens! The circuit breaker never trips, in other cases it takes a long, long time to trip.
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While I have written this many times before.
Everything you need to know about power lines, RFI and chokes:
A Ham's Guide to RFI, Ferrites, Baluns, and Audio Interfacing
Revision 5a 5 Jun 2010 © All Rights Reserved
by Jim Brown K9YC
Audio Systems Group, Inc.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
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Hey,
You may be right about the code and sorry if i gave out miss information, but why would the breaker trip any sooner than later if the panel is tied to a cold water pipe or any other grounding device that goes into the earth or a grounding rod that goes into the earth?
Thanks
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Hey,
You may be right about the code and sorry if i gave out miss information, but why would the breaker trip any sooner than later if the panel is tied to a cold water pipe or any other grounding device that goes into the earth or a grounding rod that goes into the earth?
Thanks
Because a "separate grounding rod" may have some 50 to 200 Ohms resistance back to the Neutral/Ground point.
All 'ground rods', exterior cold water pipe, UFER and other exterior ground systems should be connected to the building's power system only at the service entrance.
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Second that audiogoober.
Dedicated lines is one of the best value for money for anyone who is serious about their music/HT system. Clean power is crucial, just hear the difference.
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EDITED, thanks for links Speedskater.
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[size=78%](1) Yes, all home appliances, e.g. fridge, range, washer, dryer, etc etc are digitally controlled & [/size]
emit RFI to the powerlines via their power cords. To stop our household powerlines from such
RFI contaminations, an effective yet cheapie way is to snap on RFI ferrous ring suppressors to
the power cords of those appliances. I've installed one to EACH & every power cord of
ALL my household appliances since day one.
Can you supply a link to what you used?
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Yeah, are you talking about snap-on ferrites?
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For such a simple device as a ferrite, using them is far from simple.
This paper started out as a audio system paper, then a lot of Ham info was added and the paper renamed.
A Ham's Guide to RFI, Ferrites, Baluns, and Audio Interfacing
Revision 5a 5 Jun 2010
by Jim Brown K9YC
Audio Systems Group, Inc.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com
The basis of this tutorial is a combination of my engineering education, 55 years in ham radio, my
work as vice-chair of the AES Standards Committee working group on EMC, and extensive research
on RFI in the pro audio world where I’ve made my living.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
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Thanks Phil. How would one utilize two receptacles on two circuits?
Any specific instructions I should give the electrician? Any thing I might want to consider for the outlet?
headshrinker2,
If you mean a duplex receptacle, (2 receptacles supported by one yoke, back strap), per NEC code the two circuits shall be fed from a 2 pole breaker. For safety both circuits must be de energized by a one handle operation for maintenance.
Problem with using a 2 pole breaker each circuit would be fed from both Lines, legs, from the electrical panel. As is common practice equipment that is connected together by ICs should be fed from the same Line, leg, of the electrical panel.
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Ummmm, that 2nd circuit will greatly increase the likelyhood of ground loop hum and noise. If those outlets with individual circuits are a couple of feet from your panel, its probably not a problem. Each separate circuit from your panel will have, by Code, its own safety ground wire running back to the panel. If distant from the panel, you are, by definition, increasing the ground loop length and the associated voltage drop and current flow on the ground.
FWIW, YMMV,
Paul
For my 2 channel system I have 2 dedicated branch circuits that are over 75' long each. The wire is #10-2 with ground NM-B slightly twisted the entire length. Runs are separated by at least 1' from one another until within about 15' from the electrical panel. Both runs are one piece each, no splices.
The wire is connected to 2 square D OQ 20 amp breakers installed directly across from one another. (Both connected to the same main bus breaker connecting tie)
All digital is plugged into one dedicated circuit, analog the other.
Duplex recepts are Old style Hubbell HBL8300H non plated cryoed treated.
Preamp is a Sonic Frontiers Line One (tube). Amp is a ARC VT 50 (tube). The system is dead quiet. Yes tubes, dead quiet.
I have never had a ground loop hum.
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Hello,
I don't know but i put in the isolated lines and i did not connect the ground to the electrically panel but a separate grounding rod that was grounded into the earth. I believe that is within code and never had any ground loop problems at all unless you introduce something that was not on the same ground. Also in my experience doing this project was well worth it and any my system never sounded better.
So i think it goes to show that not every one has the same experience and you just have to make up your own mind based on the info that is out there.
Once again, Good Luck
I don't know but i put in the isolated lines and i did not connect the ground to the electrically panel but a separate grounding rod that was grounded into the earth.
In the event of a dead short ground fault it works great for hunting fish worms. Just keep pets and bare footed humans out of the area of the ground rod on a heavy dew morning.
Mother Earth does not possess some magical mystical power that sucks nasty’s from the AC mains of our home.
Per NEC code. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground fault current path.
In the case your isolated dedicated ground rod is called upon to pass a ground fault from a piece of your equipment, or a shorted hot to ground power cord connector, or whatever, if a path is provided the fault current will take any path available to return to the source. It likes the least resistive path but it is non-discriminating, it will take any path available.
Possible paths?
If the rod is close to a driven rod for your main electrical service it will head there. It will enter that rod and travel to the grounded main service neutral in the electrical panel.
Of course if the moisture in the earth is low, soil resistance could be high and not enough current will flow to trip the branch circuit breaker open feeding the ground fault.
Your neighbor’s house. If your neighbor happens to have his electrical service on the same side as your isolated ground rod the current will go through the earth enter his rod go to his electrical panel to his main service neutral then go outside on the service neutral and head for the power transformer that feeds your house. And again if the ground fault is a dead short will the earth resistance prevent enough current flow to trip the breaker open in the electrical panel in your house?
The Utility power transformer. Usually power companies connect the center tap of the secondary side to a wire that is connected to earth. This could also be the path for the ground fault current to flow through the earth to get back to the source.
It will take any and all paths available.
http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2005/whitlock/whitlock_pnw05.pdf
Also the dedicated isolated ground rod has a better chance of frying your audio equipment from a lighting strike. Lightning can travel horizontally through the earth for, I believe, up to 5 miles.
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I must say that 'jea48' has an excellent understanding of AC power and how it interacts with audio systems.
One very small point: Ralph Morrison suggests bundling all the AC power cords that go from area A to area B. He also suggests bundling (in a different bundle) all the analog interconnects that go from area A to area B.
And to repeat an important point: All the ground rods must only connect to the building electrical system near the service entrance.
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One very small point: Ralph Morrison suggests bundling all the AC power cords that go from area A to area B. He also suggests bundling (in a different bundle) all the analog interconnects that go from area A to area B.
Speedskater
Power cords are not the same as building branch circuit wiring.
When branch circuits are bundled together for long runs voltage will be induced across conductors of other circuits of other branch circuits. How about EMI/RFI and harmonics?
In the commercial/industrial electrical industry as a rule a true dedicated branch circuit that is used to feed electronic equipment does not share the same conduit, cable, or raceway with other branch circuits.
Been awhile since I have read any white papers of Ralph Morrison. Could you please post the link of the white paper or book you refer to along with the year Mr. Morrison wrote it.
Were SMPS, switch mode power supplies, around then? How about digital equipment? Harmonics like we have today?
I do not bundle the AC power cords of my audio equipment. Nor the ICs.
Who does that today?
Jim