Jean’s Von Schweikert VR10-MKII-system + Trinnov Altitude32

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 19440 times.

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Hello Jean,

Congratulations on the finalization of your dream system!  Your room and overall system design is an amazing sight from just looking at your updated photos.   Is the sound quality giving you "goose bumps" with each listening session?   I'll be sure to stop by for a listen when I visit my partner in Netherlands, Cor Dekker, in a few months.  He has told me that you have done an extremely good job of setting this room up and he is very excited to have you as a new client. 

Happy Listening!

A.V.S.


Dear Albert,

Thank you for your reaction and your compliments! I’m very happy with Cor and the way he advised me while improving the performance of the speaker setup. Currently I am indeed extremely satisfied with the way the system performs and ‘goose bumps’ occur on regular basis. The most impressing experience I still have on a daily basis is the effortless performance of the system, its liveliness and the ability to reveal so much details over the whole frequency range without getting fatigued even after hours of listening.

For me it would be a honour if you would visit my room together with Cor and you are of course more that welcome together. If you have a (rough) idea about the timing, please let me know and I will make sure to stay in the neighbourhood (i.e. not plan a holiday around that time). :D

Best regards,

Jean     

es347

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1835
  • ..I've got my eye on you...which one you say?
If Albert does visit we expect lots of photos documenting the event.  Hey Cor, perhaps even some HD video as well  :thumb:

DEV

It took a while before posting/preparing my next post, but it took a while to get the set-up at 'the next level'.
Currently I'm a very very satified Von Schweikert user!!!

After the initial placement in May last year, it took some time before finding the 'optimal' placement for the maintowers and subtowers of the system.
For the subtowers a DSP is now added enabling full correction of undesired room acoustics.

Herewith some new pics... Next step: further improvement of the electronics :D


Best regards,

Jan



the subtowers in the corners with 90 degrees toe-in (you can hardly see them) resulted already in a very smooth frequency response.


but they are really there :green:


my previous speakers are now used as surround speakers

Hi Jean,

awesome system along with story behind putting it all together - thanks for sharing  :)

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
After a few months of no postings in this topic, time for an update :D

If Albert does visit we expect lots of photos documenting the event.  Hey Cor, perhaps even some HD video as well  :thumb:

Unfortunately Albert did not visit my room yet, so no update on that; but Albert if you are reading this: if you are in the neighbourhood you are of course still more than welcome together with Cor (if you still like).

awesome system along with story behind putting it all together - thanks for sharing  :)
Thank you for the compliment and more than welcome! :thumb:

After a lot of listening sessions after starting this thread, I’m now very confident that I will boost the audio performance even above ‘goose bump’ level. In the coming month, I will add new electronics to my system that will improve the performance of my VR10-MKII’s to (hopefully) but more in general the complete audioreproduction of the set-up to unimaginable levels of realism. I will keep you updated.

Best regards,

Jean   

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
A friend of my was so nice to create a panorama picture of this room, hereby the result(s)
(note: the VS subtowers are positioned in the corners)








Best regards,

Jean

DaveC113

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 3910
  • ZenWaveAudio.com
Wow, looks amazing!  :thumb:   Thanks for posting!

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Wow, looks amazing!  :thumb:   Thanks for posting!
Thank you Dave and you are more than welcome :thumb:.

Last Friday I placed an purchase order for a Trinnov Altitude32 pre-processor. After experiencing the stereo version in my listening room (the Trinnov Amethyst) I immediately knew that this would be my next purchase. In my opinion this is the first pre-processor system (incl. DSP)  that is fully able to correct over the full frequency range without making compromises to the live experience.
What we noted is that although the phase behavior of the VR10-MKII's is very very good (compliments to AVS! 8)), it is not perfect. Using the capabilities of the Trinnov and the 3D microphone, it appeared to be  possible to create a 'monster-size' speaker system (like the VR10's) with a perfect time behaviour. The result is astonishing when you considered music reproduction.

Still 3 weeks to wait before it arrives in the Confidence Mansion, but it is worth every second!


Best regards,

Jan

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
The delivery date of the Trinnov Altitude32 is finally confirmed. :D (being December 4th, 2014).

Count down has begun. Still 8 days before I hear the VR10-MKII's absolutely time-coherent over the full frequency range 8) (can't wait)


Best regards, Jean

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Dear fellow Von Schweikert enthusiasts,

Yes! Thursday December 4th, I (finally) received my Trinnov Altitude32 processor/optimizer. This was also reason for a small celebration at the Benelux distributor as I’m the first private person in the Netherlands that purchased and received this new type of gear :thumb:.

In comparison with my previous pre-/processor, several things changed in a (very) positive way. 1) Improved pre-amplifier; 2) Improved DAC-boards; 3) Ability to play the highest resolution audio files (up to and including studio master quality); 4) No compromise, full-range amplitude and phase compensation, via the built-in Trinnov Optimizer; 5) Fully balanced design (i.e. now using XLR-cables to connect all the amplifiers).

In this set-up, I now use seven balanced outputs from the Trinnov Altitude32. The Von Schweikert VR10-system is bi-amped with four mono-amplifiers (so requiring four outputs in total), 2 outputs are used for the rear speakers (Dynaudio Confidence C4’s) and 1 output is used for the Velodyne DD-18 (handling the LFE-signal).

A very nice feature that comes with this Trinnov is the 3D-microphone that enables to measure both amplitude and phase at the same time. This allows the Trinnov optimizer to correct both amplitude and phase simultaneously, enabling to eliminate irregularities due to room acoustics and audio-equipment without any disadvantages (as generally applicable when using DSP’s). After setting up the calibration microphone, the actual measurement (even for a surround set-up) only takes a few minutes. Calculating and updating all the filter settings per speaker is only a matter of a few seconds. In the meantime I played with several filter settings (e.g. 3 up to 24 filters per octave, limiters, …) providing more or less correction of these irregularities. The optimizer also provides the possibility to set a ‘target curve’ (e.g. boost the frequency response a little bit in the lower frequencies while decreasing the frequency response at the highest frequencies to eliminate the sharpness in the sound). Such type of correction is preferred if you initially correct the frequency response up to 20kHz at the same level as the level set at 20Hz  :D. The Trinnov allows storage of a total of 29 pre-sets, so in practice there is enough room to experiment and to determine which setting(s) suits best.

My first impression is an incredible tight and colorless response without affecting the liveliness in the music. If you close your eyes female singers are just standing a few feet from my couch. Overall the music sounds very natural (e.g. bass, guitar, …) and live performance is perceived as very live. Very difficult instruments like e.g. piano are reproduced up to a level that I (until now) never heard before here in the Confidence Mansion or even on any other system (and I heard a lot in the last 30 years!).

At this side of the world, a really very very happy audio enthusiastic! :D :D


Best regards,

Jean

JackD201

That's awesome Jean! I'm using a now antiquated Marantz pre-pro in my HT. I am getting a bit itchy. If you don't mind my asking, what is the retail for the Altitude32?

Albert Von Schweikert

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 264
    • Von Schweikert Audio
Hello Jean,

Your room is progressing nicely; it is beautiful and very well designed!  I'll bet your new processor will work some magic and I can't wait to hear this unit. 

I apologize for not coming to see you sooner, but I was unable to leave my factory this summer as I had to design several new models and finish a new " super speaker" for a client who owns our VR-11SE Mk2.  I've been working on the client's custom model, called VR-111 XS, for two years and am very close to having the complete design assembled and tested.  We will publish a set of photos prior to shipping them, but there are some basic photos published by The Absolute Sound magazine in their latest Recommended Components Issue. 

Two months ago, there was also a shorter version published on the TAS website called "Robert Harley Visit's Albert Von Schweikert's Design Studio."  We provide a link to the article from our website News Page.  Jean, you might find it interesting that the VR-111 XS resembles the system architecture of your VR-10 Mk2, which I designed back in 1987 and built on a custom basis for clients all over the world.  Although we altered the system to a single tower per side in the VR-11 SE Mk2 in 2004, the basic concept is similar to that design as well. 

The VR-10 Mk2 was a simplified version in basic black that we marketed for home theater use, although we found that most the systems ended up in two channel systems.  I believe you have the only pair of them in your country and we are quite proud that you have taken this design to new heights of quality with your fantastic room and dedication!

I will try to visit you and Cor when I'm at the upcoming Munich show in Germany in a few months.  Let us plan ahead!

Happy Listening,

AVS

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
That's awesome Jean! I'm using a now antiquated Marantz pre-pro in my HT. I am getting a bit itchy. If you don't mind my asking, what is the retail for the Altitude32?

Hi Jack. Thanks! I had the same feeling with my previous Arcam AV8 pre-pro which originates from the Jurassic Park time period :wink:. Nevertheless I still like the sound of it, so it will move back to the living room. I expect that Dutch people have some advantage regarding the retail price as the distance between the Netherlands and France (and back) is ‘easily’ drivable within only one day. Based on the retail prince in the Netherlands and assuming that you also want your own 3D-microphone, the basic 8-channel version of the Altitude32 is about $25K based on the current currency rate Euro/USD. If you want more output channels and/or e.g. Dolby Atmos/Auro 3D on board the Altitude32 becomes more expensive.

Hello Jean,

Your room is progressing nicely; it is beautiful and very well designed!  I'll bet your new processor will work some magic and I can't wait to hear this unit. 

Thanks Albert! I realize that I still not reached the maximum potential of the set-up, but I’m getting closer and closer (and as you know good things take time, like the VR-111 XS). This new processor and all the improvements and capabilities that come with it are indeed a significant step in the good direction.

I apologize for not coming to see you sooner, but I was unable to leave my factory this summer as I had to design several new models and finish a new " super speaker" for a client who owns our VR-11SE Mk2.  I've been working on the client's custom model, called VR-111 XS, for two years and am very close to having the complete design assembled and tested.  We will publish a set of photos prior to shipping them, but there are some basic photos published by The Absolute Sound magazine in their latest Recommended Components Issue. 

No problem :wink:. This allowed me in the meantime to improve the set-up (even) further :D. Just read the article and this looks like an amazing piece of work. Any ideas if you are going to add the VR-111 XS to the Von Schweikert catalogue or will this pair obtain the status of a unique piece in the world? Do I understand correctly that each woofer requires its own amplifier? (i.e. are 8 mono-amplifiers required to drive the two subtowers?)

Two months ago, there was also a shorter version published on the TAS website called "Robert Harley Visit's Albert Von Schweikert's Design Studio."  We provide a link to the article from our website News Page.  Jean, you might find it interesting that the VR-111 XS resembles the system architecture of your VR-10 Mk2, which I designed back in 1987 and built on a custom basis for clients all over the world.  Although we altered the system to a single tower per side in the VR-11 SE Mk2 in 2004, the basic concept is similar to that design as well. 

It is indeed interesting and very special to realize that for a speaker system with absolutely no compromises (like the VR-111 XS) you went back to the system architecture of the VR-10 MK2 that enables bi-amping the four cabinets with a set of four mono-amplifiers (class-A/B for the main towers and class-D for the sub towers). In my perception I still consider the VR-10 MK2’s as speakers without any compromises (hope to stay in that ‘fantasy’ world for quite a while).

The VR-10 Mk2 was a simplified version in basic black that we marketed for home theater use, although we found that most the systems ended up in two channel systems.  I believe you have the only pair of them in your country and we are quite proud that you have taken this design to new heights of quality with your fantastic room and dedication!

Thanks for your compliments and of course I really like to do this kind of exercises as part of the hobby! If was I informed correctly there is indeed only one system in the Netherlands and there appears to be one system in the United Kingdom (so with only two speaker systems in Europe making it quite unique). Are there any plans to create a center speaker that matches with these type of speakers and set-ups (VR10, VR11, VR 100, …)? Although I do not really miss a center speaker in the current set-up I’m still pretty confident that it would complete the surround experience even further. Those centers that I had and tried did more bad than good. So, if a matching center comes on the market, I really might be interested.

I will try to visit you and Cor when I'm at the upcoming Munich show in Germany in a few months.  Let us plan ahead!

Happy Listening,

AVS

Sounds great! I’m also planning to go to High-End Munich next year with a few friends. Let’s keep in contact so that we can try to align our visits. I expect to fly on Friday May 15th to Munch and to fly back on Sunday May 17th (but this still needs to be confirmed with the other guys).

Best regards,

Jean

JackD201

Yowza! Quite a bit over my budget!  :?  I shall live vicariously through you Jean. I'm looking forward to your impressions when you've got everything dialed in  :thumb:

pre

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 18
Nice to hear your first user comments from Altitude32.  I would be curious to ask what will be your main signalling way (for music)  alternatives into Altitude.  Analog XLR or HDMI or USB bit perfect from a server.  Movies with HDMI is the way but what are the possibilities from a music server that has usb output  ?

How was the XO frequency selected for the VSA  bass towers in Altitude ?  - preselect frequency with proposed slope in Altitude  or did the system analyze the best XO frequency by itself ?  Just wondering because the towers must have their own inbuilt XOs also. So how to do it in Altitude or was it mainly finetuning the levels, room modes and phasing in digital domain  ?

Great system and tailoring the biamp curve for the sub towers and house curve for the system must be a great  opportunity. Please keep on posting more comments  and would be great to see the before after graphs from screen for response & phase measurements.

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Yowza! Quite a bit over my budget!  :?  I shall live vicariously through you Jean. I'm looking forward to your impressions when you've got everything dialed in  :thumb:

Hi Jack. I realize that the thing in itself is not cheap, but taking into account all the functions it combines (e.g. pre/dac/pro/optimizer/…) it is even ‘cheaper’ than to create a dedicated stereo and surround set-up (which was also something I considered for a while) including all the required cabling. I give myself until the summer of 2015 to learn ‘everything’ about this Altitude32 and to integrate it with the rest of the set-up (incl. some possible minor upgrades) up to optimal performance. Sounds like a long time, but unfortunately I currently don’t have much time to spend on the hobby (although my fingers itch).

Nice to hear your first user comments from Altitude32.  I would be curious to ask what will be your main signalling way (for music)  alternatives into Altitude.  Analog XLR or HDMI or USB bit perfect from a server.  Movies with HDMI is the way but what are the possibilities from a music server that has usb output  ?

In the current set-up, I still use analog XLR’s, HDMI and a coaxial digital cable between my main source (an Oppo bdp-95) and the Trinnov. The digital connections in the Oppo are set at bitstream out and no secondary audio signal. The main reason is that my previous pre/pro (an Arcam AV8) did not have XLR nor HDMI inputs. So I invested in a ‘more than good’ coaxial digital cable but I realize that the current XLR’s and the HDMI-cable that I use are good and reasonable priced (but definitely not top of the bill). I have not tested USB bit perfect as I don’t have a server (yet). Still on my ‘buck-list’, but no priority at this moment.

How was the XO frequency selected for the VSA  bass towers in Altitude ?  - preselect frequency with proposed slope in Altitude  or did the system analyze the best XO frequency by itself ?  Just wondering because the towers must have their own inbuilt XOs also. So how to do it in Altitude or was it mainly finetuning the levels, room modes and phasing in digital domain  ?

Before switching over to this Trinnov Altitude32 I used modified miniDSPs to (fine-)tune the frequency response of the sub towers. The final XO frequency and the slope in that situation were selected based on months of intensive experiments and listening. The same XO and slope is now chosen in the Trinnov as default. Note that it is possible to by-pass the XO in the towers which is now done in my situation (the Altitude32 is in full control of what happens and the same applies with respect to the control of my Velodyne DD-18 (no XO); all control is done via the Altitude32). To keep things simple, the XO is the only thing that needs to be set in advance before starting the calibration; the rest of the calibration is done by Trinnov and the 3D microphone. After that you can go completely bananas with whatever you want to do in the digital domain.

Great system and tailoring the biamp curve for the sub towers and house curve for the system must be a great  opportunity. Please keep on posting more comments  and would be great to see the before after graphs from screen for response & phase measurements.

Absolutely! But also a lot of things (still) need to be tested, including some more rigorous alternatives like the amount of toe-in and the position of the subtowers. So a lot of work, but it will definitely pay off all the effort.

Best regards,

Jean

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Congrats Jean, excellent effort, excellent looking system and setup..................   :drool:



Regards..

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Congrats Jean, excellent effort, excellent looking system and setup..................   :drool:

Regards..
Thanks for the compliments! :D

I took a while, but 'finally' some new pictures of the set-up. Still extremely happy 8)










Best regards,

Jan

gammajo

Jean, Thanks for keeping us informed. It is educational and inspirational!

Jean Sibelius

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 40
Dear VS-lovers,

A long period has passed since my last post in this topic.

In the meantime a lot has happened wherein I experimented a lot, really a lot since I purchased the Trinnov Altitude32. The Von Schweikert VR10-system is now separately driven as a four tower system, each tower is provided with its own mono-amplifier, whereby in the Trinnov  the crossover frequency, the type of filter and the slope of that filter are programmed (i.e. I use 4 output channels on the Trinnov to drive the system).

After first getting more familiar with the system and learning more about the options, a more stepwise approach was implemented. In summary: 25 different presets were simulated, measured and verified via actual listening (each preset having a certain crossover frequency and using a filter type/slope combination for the sub towers and the main towers that based on actual measurements on the hotspot appeared to be promising). The Trinnov automatically calibrates/compensates for the gain difference and calculates the delay(!) between the towers on 1/100st of a millisecond accurately. After choosing the most promising starting point, I further improved my calibration skills and based on a very reliable set of calibration measurements further tweaked the more advanced options, like the so-called ‘limiter curve’ (i.e. a frequency dependent boundary to indicate/select how much attenuation and suppression are allowed by the optimization filters). The real cherry on the pie is the tweaking of the ‘target curve’. This allows a frequency dependent adaptation of the final frequency response that is desired (in steps of 0.1dB). Without the Trinnov this kind of tweaking is comparable with experimenting with e.g. cables to boost or suppress a certain frequency range, but this is much faster and controllable.

In the end this whole process took me 11 months. My conclusion (if you want the best performance) is that the first step should always be to tweak the system (positioning of the speakers, toe-in, level settings on the VR10’s) as much as possible to the desired outcome.

Only after that (mis)use the Trinnov to compensate for all the remaining ‘issues’.

Also some new gear was added to the set-up (Oppo bdp-105D, Crystal Cable XLR’s, NAS, Network cables and tweaks). A software update of the Trinnov Altitude32 in March of this year enables me to stream (multi-channel high resolution up to 192kHz 24 bit) directly from a NAS to the Trinnov (the only connection in between are two CAT-cables and a switch). In my situation this is the preferred way to listen to music, so I started with ripping all my CD’s.


Best regards,

Jean (a very Happy Von Schweikert listener)

ceedee

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 698
    • Musical Reality
Re: Jean’s Von Schweikert VR10-MKII-system + Trinnov Altitude32
« Reply #39 on: 28 Nov 2015, 10:36 am »
I visited Jean recently,



Jean's system is beautiful balanced now.



Very relaxing.



Enjoy the music Jean.



All the best,



Cor