AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 06:22 pm

Title: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 06:22 pm
I've heard it said that image depth is increased when you pull the speakers out from the wall behind them.  So which is more important, the distance the drivers on the front are to the wall behind or the distance the back of the speaker is to the wall behind?

For reference I'm refering to closed back speakers, not open back or open baffle speakers.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Nuance on 30 Nov 2010, 06:46 pm
I've heard it said that image depth is increased when you pull the speakers out from the wall behind them.  So which is more important, the distance the drivers on the front are to the wall behind or the distance the back of the speaker is to the wall behind?

For reference I'm refering to closed back speakers, not open back or open baffle speakers.

Thanks.

Both.  The distance the drivers are from the back (and side) wall(s) will effect reflections, sounds stage width and depth and imaging.  The distances the rear ports are from the wall will effect bass response. 

Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: jsalk on 30 Nov 2010, 07:11 pm
Speakers almost always benefit from being set away from the wall or corners.

There are a couple of aspects to consider here.  First, the farther the speakers are away from the wall, the later reflections off of room surfaces arrive at the listening position.  If the distance to the rear wall is short, human hearing cannot tell whether those are room reflections or part of the original signal.  So these early reflections can serve to "smear" the image.

There are two ways to deal with this issue.  Acoustic panels placed at first reflection points can absorb those early reflections and keep the sound pristine at the listening position.  Where are these first reflection points?  It is easy to find them with the help of a mirror and an assistant.

While seated in the listening position, have your assistant slide a mirror along the side walls until you see a reflection of the speaker in the mirror.  This is a first reflection point.  Repeat this for the rear wall and perhaps the ceiling to locate all of these first reflection points.

The second way to deal with these is to position the speakers at least 4 feet from the nearest surfaces.  This is not possible in most cases since the rooms are not large enough.  But if it is, reflections from surfaces about 4 feet or more from the speaker will be interpreted as room reflections and not as coming directly from the speakers.  So no acoustic treatments may be required.

The other aspect of this question relates to the amount of midbass energy you experience.  If the speaker is placed close to a wall, these frequencies will be reinforced.  This will vary from room to room and from speaker to speaker.  For example, we have found that ported speakers are more sensitive to this effect than transmission line speakers.  But if your speakers are sounding a little on the "boomy" side, pulling them away from the rear walls and corners will likely improve bass performance.

I hope this helps.

- Jim
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Big Red Machine on 30 Nov 2010, 07:39 pm
I was going to say that! :lol:
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 07:47 pm
Both.  The distance the drivers are from the back (and side) wall(s) will effect reflections, sounds stage width and depth and imaging.  The distances the rear ports are from the wall will effect bass response.

Thanks.

Let me make sure I understand correctly; (1) imaging/depth is affect by how far the front of the speaker is from the walls, not the space behind the speaker, and (2) bass response is affected by how close the back of the cabinet is to the wall (at least for rear ported designs).  Do I have this right?
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 08:02 pm
Speakers almost always benefit from being set away from the wall or corners.

There are a couple of aspects to consider here.  First, the farther the speakers are away from the wall, the later reflections off of room surfaces arrive at the listening position.  If the distance to the rear wall is short, human hearing cannot tell whether those are room reflections or part of the original signal.  So these early reflections can serve to "smear" the image.

There are two ways to deal with this issue.  Acoustic panels placed at first reflection points can absorb those early reflections and keep the sound pristine at the listening position.  Where are these first reflection points?  It is easy to find them with the help of a mirror and an assistant.

While seated in the listening position, have your assistant slide a mirror along the side walls until you see a reflection of the speaker in the mirror.  This is a first reflection point.  Repeat this for the rear wall and perhaps the ceiling to locate all of these first reflection points.

The second way to deal with these is to position the speakers at least 4 feet from the nearest surfaces.  This is not possible in most cases since the rooms are not large enough.  But if it is, reflections from surfaces about 4 feet or more from the speaker will be interpreted as room reflections and not as coming directly from the speakers.  So no acoustic treatments may be required.

The other aspect of this question relates to the amount of midbass energy you experience.  If the speaker is placed close to a wall, these frequencies will be reinforced.  This will vary from room to room and from speaker to speaker.  For example, we have found that ported speakers are more sensitive to this effect than transmission line speakers.  But if your speakers are sounding a little on the "boomy" side, pulling them away from the rear walls and corners will likely improve bass performance.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

Thank you for the great explanation. :)

I do understand how early reflections affect imaging/depth depending on how close the speaker is to the walls.  What I specifically wanted to know, at least in terms of image depth and how it relates to speaker position relative to the wall behind the speaker, is which distance are we talking about, the distance from the front of the speaker to the wall or the distance from the back of the speaker to the wall?

My guess is that the distance from the front of the speaker is the critical one, but I don't know that for sure, hence my post. :)
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Big Red Machine on 30 Nov 2010, 08:05 pm
Well, the front of the speaker is the source of the sound, and it wraps around the speaker and bounces off the baffle, the sides, walls, rear wall, etc. at lower frequencies.

Nuance pointed out that if the port is in the rear and is too close to a wall it can introduce aberrations to the bass you don't want to hear as they are not in synch with the driver on the front I believe.  (out of phase?)

It may be easier to pull the speakers toward you in a small room and go with a nearfield triangle and treat the side wall reflections first.  If you still get boomy corners due to bass build-up then traps in the corners may be a next step.  My room is only 13.5 wide and I trap with triangles floor to ceiling that are about 16 inches deep.  They work!

Also, do not set the speakers equally from each wall.  I have a 6 inch offset to one side and am around the 62% back position.  This helps reduce the effect of room modes we cannot escape.

I go with answer A.  I was typing this response while you were typing yours.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 08:19 pm
Well, the front of the speaker is the source of the sound, and it wraps around the speaker and bounces off the baffle, the sides, walls, rear wall, etc. at lower frequencies.

Nuance pointed out that if the port is in the rear and is too close to a wall it can introduce aberrations to the bass you don't want to hear as they are not in synch with the driver on the front I believe.  (out of phase?)

It may be easier to pull the speakers toward you in a small room and go with a nearfield triangle and treat the side wall reflections first.  If you still get boomy corners due to bass build-up then traps in the corners may be a next step.  My room is only 13.5 wide and I trap with triangles floor to ceiling that are about 16 inches deep.  They work!

Also, do not set the speakers equally from each wall.  I have a 6 inch offset to one side and am around the 62% back position.  This helps reduce the effect of room modes we cannot escape.

I go with answer A.  I was typing this response while you were typing yours.

Fortunately side reflections don't seem to be much of an issue for me.  The left speaker is slightly over 4ft from the center of the speaker directly to the left side wall.  At the first point of reflection on this wall is a large window that covered with heavy curtains.  The right speaker is about 12ft from the right side wall, so again, the side reflection doesn't seem to be an issue.

So my question was restricted to the distance to the wall behind the speaker and which affects image depth, the distance from the front of the speaker or the distance from the back of the speaker.  Thinking about it, I guess I'm wondering how much the cabinet depth gets in the way of image depth (if at all)?
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: jsalk on 30 Nov 2010, 08:32 pm
First reflections will impact the sound regardless if it is from a rear wall, side wall or ceiling.  The easiest thing to do in your situation is to kill the first reflections off the rear wall (since the side walls seem far enough away).

In a rear ported design, you want the speaker far enough from the rear wall so that midbass frequencies are not reinforced creating "boomy" sound.  This has nothing to do with image depth, but is a consideration in all speaker set-ups.

In terms of image depth, in order to create the optimum situation, you either have to kill the first reflection off the rear wall or move the speakers out from the rear wall far enough so that reflections are interpreted as reflections.  The farther you move the speakers from the rear wall, the later reflections will arrive at the listening position and the deeper the "room" will sound.  In that regard, image depth can be enhanced by moving the front of the speaker farther from the rear wall.

- Jim
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 09:05 pm
First reflections will impact the sound regardless if it is from a rear wall, side wall or ceiling.  The easiest thing to do in your situation is to kill the first reflections off the rear wall (since the side walls seem far enough away).

In a rear ported design, you want the speaker far enough from the rear wall so that midbass frequencies are not reinforced creating "boomy" sound.  This has nothing to do with image depth, but is a consideration in all speaker set-ups.

In terms of image depth, in order to create the optimum situation, you either have to kill the first reflection off the rear wall or move the speakers out from the rear wall far enough so that reflections are interpreted as reflections.  The farther you move the speakers from the rear wall, the later reflections will arrive at the listening position and the deeper the "room" will sound.  In that regard, image depth can be enhanced by moving the front of the speaker farther from the rear wall.

- Jim

I forgot about the ceiling, but the room has a cathedral ceiling with at least 7ft or more of space directly above the top of the speakers.

Do you have an idea of what distance is required to perceive the reflection as a reflection and not part of the original sound?  I thought I read a post some time back that the reflected sound should have to travel at least 5 ft farther than the original sound, that would mean a minimum distance of 2.5ft from the front of the speaker.  Does this sound correct?

BTW, my listening position is about 8ft from the speakers.

Thanks. :D
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: jsalk on 30 Nov 2010, 09:29 pm
I forgot about the ceiling, but the room has a cathedral ceiling with at least 7ft or more of space directly above the top of the speakers.

Do you have an idea of what distance is required to perceive the reflection as a reflection and not part of the original sound?  I thought I read a post some time back that the reflected sound should have to travel at least 5 ft farther than the original sound, that would mean a minimum distance of 2.5ft from the front of the speaker.  Does this sound correct?

BTW, my listening position is about 8ft from the speakers.

Thanks. :D

I am not entirely positive, but somewhere between 4 to 5 feet is probably correct.

- Jim
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 30 Nov 2010, 09:55 pm
I am not entirely positive, but somewhere between 4 to 5 feet is probably correct.

- Jim

Thanks.  I'm at about 4.5 feet (about 2.25ft each way), so I'm probably right on the border.  I'm might try to see if I can pull the speaker out another 3 inches (I'm hitting my limit already) to see what happens; that would put me right at the 5ft mark.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Stercom on 30 Nov 2010, 10:47 pm
Excellent discussion. Proper positioning of your speakers is one of the most effective yet cheapest ways to improve your sound.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: ThorsHammer on 1 Dec 2010, 11:31 am
I have ST/RTs and was consistently having trouble getting clear bass...even low E guitar strings seemed to be a bit muddy and have too much resonance. I know my room had a lot to do with the problem...hardwood floors and can't really pull the speakers more than 2' from the rear wall and wall treatments really aren't an option for me.

I finally found an easy solution that improved the sound significantly...but I'm not sure why. I'm using some F6 Athena floor standers as rears and they have a grill that's about 9" wide and 2.5' long...I took those grills and placed them in back of the SongTowers, leaning them against the backs so they were about 20" behind the port where they hit the ground after some experimenting with different positions. This eliminated my problem and they can barely be seen from the front side of the speaker.

I don't know why this was so effective. Maybe the material diffuses the sound wave before it hits the reflection points enough so that it minimizes the problem. But, it certainly was a fast cheap fix and they can be brought closer or farther away by simply adjusting the angle.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: pelliott321 on 1 Dec 2010, 01:27 pm
I also believe that there is a lot of psycho-acoustic stuff going on.  If there is physical depth to look into beyond the speaker the mind will push the sound there especially if there is something interesting to look at while listening.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Brucemck on 1 Dec 2010, 02:37 pm
For not much money you could purchase two RPG binary diffusor panels that were 2" thick by 2' wide by 4' high, covered in fabric that coordinates with your decor.  You'd place these vertically on the wall behind your speakers to absorb and scatter that reflection point.

A second panel or two, mounted horizontally on the wall directly behind your head, would be nice too.

http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors-rpg-bad.html

http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors-rpg-bad-arc.html

They make a large contribution to imaging.

Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: HT cOz on 1 Dec 2010, 02:46 pm
Has anyone called to see how much they actually cost?
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: oneinthepipe on 1 Dec 2010, 05:12 pm
There is a lot of good information on the Acoustics Circle.  For short money, you could build some broadband absorption panels/bass traps, which will not only improve bass but will also clear up the mid-range.  OC 703 panels can be purchased wholesale for a reasonable price, and the materials for frames and for covers is cheap. 
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 1 Dec 2010, 06:10 pm
Thanks.  I'm at about 4.5 feet (about 2.25ft each way), so I'm probably right on the border.  I'm might try to see if I can pull the speaker out another 3 inches (I'm hitting my limit already) to see what happens; that would put me right at the 5ft mark.

I have to revise my distance estimates.  I completely forgot about the role my 60" plasma plays in this.  It takes up most of the space between the speakers and sits 9 inches out from the wall (it's on a stand).  So a good deal of reflections I'm getting are coming off the TV.  Perhaps later I might consider having the TV wall mounted to place it further back since I cannot place the speakers any farther into the room.

Imaging is certainly not lacking in my setup, but I'm curious how much improvement I can obtain.

For not much money you could purchase two RPG binary diffusor panels that were 2" thick by 2' wide by 4' high, covered in fabric that coordinates with your decor.  You'd place these vertically on the wall behind your speakers to absorb and scatter that reflection point.

A second panel or two, mounted horizontally on the wall directly behind your head, would be nice too.

http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors-rpg-bad.html

http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors-rpg-bad-arc.html

They make a large contribution to imaging.



Interesting.  Not sure how much they may help in my situation as there isn't much "blank" wall space behind my speakers.  As mentioned above, most of the reflective surface is from the TV between the speakers.

I guess if I really wanted to get fancy, I could mount the TV on the wall and put up retractable curtains to cover the TV, just like a old fashion movie theater. :D
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Kinger on 1 Dec 2010, 06:36 pm
Have you ever tried throwing a soft thick blanket over the TV during critical listening sessions?
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Brucemck on 1 Dec 2010, 07:01 pm
Has anyone called to see how much they actually cost?

At the high end you could purchase a single four inch depth curved RPG panel for $420 (from Galen Carol Audio).  For $160/each you could purchase a single flat 2' by 2' RPG panel from B&H. Those are all binary diffusors.

For around $60/each you can purchase 1" by 2' by 4' fiberglass wrapped in some Guilford of Maine cloth.  Any of those would improve imaging.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 1 Dec 2010, 07:18 pm
Have you ever tried throwing a soft thick blanket over the TV during critical listening sessions?

This wouldn't work for me as a long term solution for me, but I might try it just to see what effect it may have.  Perhaps it might motivate me to come up with a more "attractive" solution.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: martyo on 1 Dec 2010, 07:55 pm
You will definately hear a difference. That is what I do. On the top shelf of the rack to the right of the TV is my blanket. Usually if it's not a music DVD, the blanket is over the TV. My speakers are over 2 feet in front of the TV.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17726)
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Wayner on 1 Dec 2010, 09:09 pm
                  If a guy was to study the human anatomy of the ear, and ponder on it for a while, you might come to a couple of considerations as to the real nature of sound and the failings of all sound reproduction in general.
                The ear can do something that no microphone or loudspeaker can do, it can hear in phase and out of phase material at the same time. You may ask “how is this possible?” The answer lies in how the ear is constructed. Yes , the usual eardrum we all know behaves like a microphone, but the ear has also bone and sinus cavities that are also integrated into the act. This means that while the eardrum is hearing the usual sine wave pulse of sound and converting it into electrical signals, the bone structure is also transmitting information and converting that into electrical information. The real crutch is that the bone transmitted information can be out of phase with the eardrum information and because they are occurring on different physical planes, do not cancel each other out as with out of phase air bound sound waves.
                This mixture of in phase and out of phase sound, is what gives us humans the ability to pinpoint sound locations instantly. It actually creates a 3D vector in our minds and we can easily target the directionality of any sound source. If we were to get a head cold, these abilities are hampered as one of the vectors is lost and the ability to identify the source is retarded.
                How can a stereo system overcome this? The microphones used to record the information do have both elements of in phase and out of phase material transmitted to the recording medium, but the real suspect is the loudspeaker. Its divers can only move in one direction at any given moment, and most of the depth clues are in the lower frequencies. So how is the anti-phase material going to get transmitted within any particular cone movement? The only way to solve this problem is with time.
                As Jim has suggested, moving the speakers away from the rear wall is one way, moving them farther apart is another way. Moving the speaker away from the rear wall mirrors the rear radiation distance and then hence increases the “time” that the wave will reach a listener. The speaker cabinet also has an influence on this as the density of the cabinet material used will slow down the energy wave.
                Say we are sitting 8 feet from a speaker s front baffle that is only 1 foot away from the wall. Rear radiated sound will have 10 feet  to travel (one foot to the wall, 9 feet to the listener (not including other reflections)) and this is not enough time to recover out of phase sound. If we move the speaker farther out, say 4 feet, rear radiation will still have to travel 4 feet to the wall and then  9 feet to the listener, but the direct radiation is now only 5 feet away. We now have a more reasonable time shift between direct and rear radiated sound. This method is kind of fooling our ears into thinking that there is something much larger than it really is and we enjoy sound field depth. This is also why reverberation is used in musical recordings, to create the illusion of depth.   
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 1 Dec 2010, 09:17 pm
You will definately hear a difference. That is what I do. On the top shelf of the rack to the right of the TV is my blanket. Usually if it's not a music DVD, the blanket is over the TV. My speakers are over 2 feet in front of the TV.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17726)

I'll give it a try.  If you are hearing a difference in your setup I would think I would even more so since the front of my speakers are only 19" in front of the TV and the TV takes up most of the space between them.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: mark funk on 1 Dec 2010, 10:22 pm
Boy, you sure can hear it! I have a 42" in between my speakers and I have a red blanket also for the tube.


                                                                                       :smoke:
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: catastrofe on 1 Dec 2010, 10:35 pm
Boy, you sure can hear it! I have a 42" in between my speakers and I have a red blanket also for the tube.


                                                                                       :smoke:

Do red blankets affect the sound differently than other colored blankets?  What about a wet blanket?   :green:

I'm sure there's someone that will argue this point!

Sorry, couldn't resist. . .
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Kinger on 1 Dec 2010, 11:33 pm
I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 2 Dec 2010, 05:04 pm
I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)

Dang.....there goes that idea......thought it might sound warmer! :lol:

Sorry...couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Nuance on 3 Dec 2010, 02:48 pm
I guess if I really wanted to get fancy, I could mount the TV on the wall and put up retractable curtains to cover the TV, just like a old fashion movie theater. :D

That sounds a little extreme, but in my opinion it would be a genius move.  Seriously, that large glass surface between the speakers can certainly effect the sound.  I am in the same situation as you, and I sometimes lean two panels in front of the TV while listening to music; the difference is obvious to my ears, but it looks so silly and is totally un-practical (is that a word?).  Now the curtain idea... :D  Oh, and definitely mount the TV; it gave me a little more image depth, but YMMV.

Do red blankets affect the sound differently than other colored blankets?  What about a wet blanket?   :green:

I'm sure there's someone that will argue this point!

Sorry, couldn't resist. . .

I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)

Dang.....there goes that idea......thought it might sound warmer! :lol:

Sorry...couldn't resist.

LMAO!  Hilarious! :lol:
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 3 Dec 2010, 03:43 pm
That sounds a little extreme, but in my opinion it would be a genius move.  Seriously, that large glass surface between the speakers can certainly effect the sound.  I am in the same situation as you, and I sometimes lean two panels in front of the TV while listening to music; the difference is obvious to my ears, but it looks so silly and is totally un-practical (is that a word?).  Now the curtain idea... :D  Oh, and definitely mount the TV; it gave me a little more image depth, but YMMV.

LMAO!  Hilarious! :lol:

I'll give the blanket a try, but like you said, it looks silly and just doesn't work for me cosmetically.  If I notice much improvement I may pursue a more visually pleasing solution.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: woodsyi on 3 Dec 2010, 03:57 pm
The speaker positioning and covering reflective screen in between the speakers are very important.  I would also suggest that comb filtering from the back wall is messing up your stage depth.  I have about 10 ft behind my listening position and putting up a big diffuser on the back wall made a huge difference in imaging and establishing stage depth.  I would not do without it. 
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 3 Dec 2010, 05:01 pm
The speaker positioning and covering reflective screen in between the speakers are very important.  I would also suggest that comb filtering from the back wall is messing up your stage depth.  I have about 10 ft behind my listening position and putting up a big diffuser on the back wall made a huge difference in imaging and establishing stage depth.  I would not do without it.

Thanks for the suggestion.  The situation behind my listening area is a little different.  You can see the layout on this link:

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

The cathedral ceiling height starts at 9ft at the wall behind the L&R speakers and slopes up to 19ft at the wall behind the listening position.  The stairs behind the listining area lead up to a landing that's open to the living room and the hall behind the listening position leads to the den.

As you can see the area behind the listening position (on couch) is a bit irregular.

Any tips are appreciated. :)

Of course the ultimate solution would be to have a dedicated room for this instead of using the living room, but that will have to stay a dream. :(
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: martyo on 3 Dec 2010, 05:36 pm
Irregular is good. Maybe something in the corner or on the door. You might want to loose that table tho.

Most of us don't have a completely dedicated room. You eliminate as much as possible and sit back and enjoy.

Did you order HT2-TL's?
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Nuance on 3 Dec 2010, 06:05 pm
Thanks for the suggestion.  The situation behind my listening area is a little different.  You can see the layout on this link:

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

The cathedral ceiling height starts at 9ft at the wall behind the L&R speakers and slopes up to 19ft at the wall behind the listening position.  The stairs behind the listining area lead up to a landing that's open to the living room and the hall behind the listening position leads to the den.

As you can see the area behind the listening position (on couch) is a bit irregular.

Any tips are appreciated. :)

Of course the ultimate solution would be to have a dedicated room for this instead of using the living room, but that will have to stay a dream. :(

Nice room you've got there!

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you mention the paladium window had thick curtains covering it?  If not, definitely get some of those floor standing 2x4 acoustic panels.  Glass = bad for sound. 

Looking at that picture, if it were me I'd mount the plasma, lose the glass coffee table and move the couch back/speakers further from the wall.  If the latter is not possible, I'd treat the wall behind the speakers, probably with at least two 2x4' 4" thick acoustic panels from Gik or Real Traps.  Heck, I'd probably do that anyway.

Check these out:

Wall behind speakers: http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
Left wall with window(s): http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_242.html
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 3 Dec 2010, 06:24 pm
Irregular is good. Maybe something in the corner or on the door. You might want to loose that table tho.

Most of us don't have a completely dedicated room. You eliminate as much as possible and sit back and enjoy.

Did you order HT2-TL's?

Thanks.

Haven't made that final decision yet, but very close to doing so.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 3 Dec 2010, 07:05 pm
Nice room you've got there!

Thanks.

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you mention the paladium window had thick curtains covering it?  If not, definitely get some of those floor standing 2x4 acoustic panels.  Glass = bad for sound.

You are correct.  They stay closed most of the time.  It's interesting, though, I've compared the sound with the curtains closed and open and there is a difference, but it's pretty small.  Perhaps the reflection from the glass is arriving late enough to prevent significantly impacting imaging/soundstaging? 

Quote
Looking at that picture, if it were me I'd mount the plasma, lose the glass coffee table and move the couch back/speakers further from the wall.  If the latter is not possible, I'd treat the wall behind the speakers, probably with at least two 2x4' 4" thick acoustic panels from Gik or Real Traps.  Heck, I'd probably do that anyway Check these out:

Wall behind speakers: http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
Left wall with window(s): http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_242.html

Yeah, I think I need to seriously consider mounting the plasma.  I must admit though the idea of mounting a 135lb 60" plasma (Pioneer Elite 151) on the wall makes me a wee bit nervous. :oops:  If anything happened to my beloved Kuro..... :o :cry: :cry: :cry:

I have zero flexibility with the couch placment (moving it back would block the front door) and the L&R speakers are as far out into the room as I can put them (front of speaker is about 28 inches from the wall behind them).  For consideration of other household members, the coffee table stays as well.  It's actually a fairly small oval table and I keep some books, a plant, and my remote caddy on it so the reflections from it are broken up a bit.  Again, concessions must be made to promote domestic harmony. :green:  I shouldn't complain though for I've not been denied any new audio/video toy I've wanted, as long as we could afford it of course.

Treatments behind the speakers are a possiblility, so I may check that out.

I should add that the soundstaging/imaging I'm getting now is very good.  It's easy to turn the lights down and get lost in the music.  I'm just looking to see if there are improvements to be had within my limitations.  Also, not only does this information help with my current speakers (ADS L1290) but will help when I get my new speakers (to be determined, but the HT2-TL is on a VERY short list) and cut down on the setup time.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: vintagebob on 3 Dec 2010, 07:21 pm
I recently hung my PRO-151 on the wall.  Sanus makes a great mount for it.

Before

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=22798)

After

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39533)

Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 3 Dec 2010, 08:56 pm
I recently hung my PRO-151 on the wall.  Sanus makes a great mount for it.


Thanks for the encouragement. :)
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Nuance on 4 Dec 2010, 12:52 am
This is the plasma mount I purchased, and it's very well constructed.  I weigh more than the max weight, and I hung from it when I first put it on the wall. :)

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082806&p_id=3725&seq=1&format=2
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 7 Dec 2010, 02:45 pm
Had the house to myself yesterday so I tried a couple of the suggestions mentioned here.  I covered the TV and moved the table out of the room.

I can't say I noticed much difference in soundstage depth, but there was a noticable improvement in image focus.  Covering the TV seemed to have the most effect.  Moving the table didn't change things much, perhaps because of the books, plant, etc. that normally sits on it break up any reflections.

I'll see if I can come up with an inexpensive decor friendly solution.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Nuance on 7 Dec 2010, 06:44 pm
That's good news concerning the table.  Most couples won't go to the extreme of losing the coffee table.  I said I'd do it, but my wife would probably punish me for it. :)  If it didn't make a difference to your ears, definitely don't bother with it (keep it put).

I look forward to seeing your "TV cover" solution.
Title: Re: Image Depth?
Post by: Saturn94 on 7 Dec 2010, 08:57 pm
That's good news concerning the table.  Most couples won't go to the extreme of losing the coffee table.  I said I'd do it, but my wife would probably punish me for it. :)  If it didn't make a difference to your ears, definitely don't bother with it (keep it put).

I look forward to seeing your "TV cover" solution.

The key part of being able to move the table was "I had the house to myself". :shh: :wink: It has to go back in place though. :(  At least its impact can be kept to a minimum.

As far as the TV, I'll first look at my options to wall mount it, then see what kind of movable screen (or curtains?) might work to deal with the reflections when I want to do some serious listening.  I was hoping that wall mounting alone would be sufficient, but looking at mounts that would work for me it doesn't look like it will allow the TV to move more than a few inches back from its current position.