AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Bolder Cable Company => Topic started by: Wayne1 on 13 Feb 2008, 11:20 pm
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13563)
I have just started work on a new mod for the SB3
It will involve replacing the case with a much larger one.
With the large case, there now will be room to mount the power supply inside. This will remove the need for long DC cables.
There will now be enough room to install a separate linear power supply just for the digital section.
A re-clocking circuit could also be used.
Different options for the analog section can now be used. I will be trying a buffer circuit built into the same case.
A tube analog output could be installed.
This is my first, feeble attempt for the faceplate. The next version will be made by someone who knows how to work wood.
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The next version will be made by someone who knows how to work wood.
hey good efforts Wayne - visuals always help.... If your looking for someone that can do killer enclosures I would recommend Louis Chochos!
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Wayne1:
KILLER!!!! Looks like you are on the right track.
Cheers
Charlie
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Mr Omega does some excellent work, but I have to stand up for my local guru - Daygloworange! A wizard with wood!
Wayne, I am sure that this concept is a winner, for many reasons I bet lots of folks will want to consider an option like this.
Nice job!
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Now we're talking! Kick that Transporters ass for good! I'm only kidding, but this does really look promising.
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I'm already on the case(or re-case, as it were)! :green: I'm working on digitizing the SB 3's measurements in CAD right now. Wayne has given me a lot of freedom on how to do the faceplate.
What we're looking at doing for the Bolder rebox will not look like Wayne's prototype. We will be removing the existing plexi/aluminum faceplate entirely and rear mounting the SB3 display behind custom made smoked plexi in a CNC machined wooden faceplate.
We will be using exotic and figured woods (to be determined). The Bolder logo will be on the faceplate (we're looking a number of really trick custom options on this).
Wayne really wants to do this right, and this effort will have a high caliber look.
Trust me. :wink:
Cheers
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Denny is already working on making the rebox Squeezbox look fantastic!!.
My pitiful efforts were just to make sure the SB3 can be mounted in a bigger case.
Now that Denny is on the job, the new mod should have even better visual appeal.
This project will include contributions from many AC vendors. Hugh Dean's thoughts have been sought out on the power supply. He has mumbled something about a new line stage design.
I have consulted with Jim Hagerman about his HagClock and an analog tube stage.
There should be lots of options to choose from to have the SB3 sound as good (or better) as Denny is going to make it look.
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An all-star crew all the way around (nothing against Louis, he does impeccable work too.)
One last annoying question: any dimensions yet?
Wayne/Denny -- would there be room in there for a 5" x 10" circuit board and a low profile, off-the-shelf 24 volt power supply? Room on the front panel for a headphone jack? I have an idea... :D
-- Jim
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I'm already on the case(or re-case, as it were)! :green: I'm working on digitizing the SB 3's measurements in CAD right now. Wayne has given me a lot of freedom on how to do the faceplate.
What we're looking at doing for the Bolder rebox will not look like Wayne's prototype. We will be removing the existing plexi/aluminum faceplate entirely and rear mounting the SB3 display behind custom made smoked plexi in a CNC machined wooden faceplate.
We will be using exotic and figured woods (to be determined). The Bolder logo will be on the faceplate (we're looking a number of really trick custom options on this).
Wayne really wants to do this right, and this effort will have a high caliber look.
Trust me. :wink:
Cheers
Sounds like a winner Denny/Wayne. Good luck. I'd be happy to put one in my rack to show it off to other potential customers :wink: aa
Bryan
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Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. :green:
Yeah, a clean look, and with all the parts inside one housing, eliminating long runs of cables, and interruptions with connectors, making it sound even better,
Ya gotta like that! :banana piano:
Cheers
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ve been tossing around getting a cpu server and transport (in stages) for a month. Being a cpu idiot, im leaning towards a music valut all in one storage system. Now thanks to wayne i have yet another front end transport option to ponder!!!! mmmmm
-Transporter>modwright upgrade?
-SB3> pace car> dac?
-Sonos>pace car>dac?
-SB3>bolder digital and PSU?
-Duet- >>????
-now the rebox
when will it end!!!! If i did not have thousands of CDS lying around i might just give up and use the Sony PS1 for 30 bucks.....
As they say....let you belive in interesting times...Since the cost of memory has fallen and the audiophile brains have embraced cpu music, i believe we are in for a wave of audio innovations not seen in a decade or two.....frustrated with choice but happy to be along for the ride
go wayne
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Can you share any info/thoughts on preliminary pricing? How would this work for those who have and those who haven't done any mods yet? I've got a stock SB3 with an ELPAC that you modded, and have been thinking long and hard about making the leap sometime this year into the analog or full mods.
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Sorry for the delay on answers to questions.
The box I put the first unit is is 12 x 12 x 4. This is barely large enough to fit a single power supply. With all the stuff I would like to be able to fit inside a case, it will need to be much larger. I would like to see it 17 x 12 x 4 at a minimum.
I really don't know what pricing is going to be. The faceplate has to be designed first. Then the cost of designing the plate has to be determined. Then deciding how many will be made. Then packaging, shipping and duties. Then the cost of installing the SB into the faceplate. Getting the chassis, cost of chassis, machining of chassis, packaging for faceplate and chassis, installing the faceplate and SB into the chassis with whatever other parts.
This is not something that will be done overnight. It will be a long haul. A very rough guestimate of the faceplate and chassis would be $500.00. That could end up being off by quite a bit. That would just be for the parts. No mods. A completely tricked out SB in a new box with high end power supplies, clocks and tube stage could end up over $6000.00.
I have some clocks on order and a preliminary tube line stage. It will be a couple of weeks before I get all that assembled and hopefully working.
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I wouldn't even call that a SqueezeBox at all. More like a high end wireless tube DAC that just happens to use a salvaged SB board/logic for the data receiver and maybe display.
I think most everyone realizes this is long term, not an overnight sort of deal. Good luck with the project and thanks for the insight into development. Very exciting!
Tom
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Wayne maybe you should just contract someone or figure out how to make your own receiver piece that works like a Squeezebox, start from scratch? I know you can do it if you want too.
You could just sell entire units without the middleman, and keep everything alive if M$ buys out Logitech.
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An interesting suggestion, to in house the whole thing, but at the price point and expected volume we are talking, I suspect that it will remain cheaper to simply buy an SB3 and break it down for the parts that matter.
And as for MS buying Logitech, do you think that would derail a product like the SB3/Duet/Transporter etc?
Ah heck, now we are veering off topic, sorry Wayne and Denny.
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And as for MS buying Logitech, do you think that would derail a product like the SB3/Duet/Transporter etc?
Yes. Derail would be putting it mildly. The Squeezebox is a fairly low cpu-power device for which everything is done at the server. Microsoft would likely throw every line of open source software in the trash and create a similar device with more intelligence that works with only Media Server. You can also expect that any Logitech engineers currently with the project would leave.
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I have a question about the need for a display when using a Squeezebox controller. Can the display be removed form the SB2/3 and eliminate a noise source? I had to use a wireless Ethernet device for my Bolder SB2, because the internal wireless card was adding noise during playback.
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I have a question about the need for a display when using a Squeezebox controller. Can the display be removed form the SB2/3 and eliminate a noise source?
Yes. And no. It would be functionally similar to the Squeezebox Receiver half of the Duet. With the controller you don't need the display for playing music. But it wouldn't be the same, as the software won't identify an SB2/3 as an SBR.
The big problem you'd have is that unlike the Squeezebox Receiver, there's no way to configure an SB2/3 using the Controller. To do the initial SB2/3 configuration or to later change something like a network setting, you have to use the IR remote while being guided by the output shown on the display.
Shouldn't turning the brightness down to 'off' accomplish much of thes same thing as removing the display completely?
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I have a question about the need for a display when using a Squeezebox controller. Can the display be removed form the SB2/3 and eliminate a noise source? I had to use a wireless Ethernet device for my Bolder SB2, because the internal wireless card was adding noise during playback.
The noise created by the wireless card and the noise created by the display are two different things. The wireless noise will still be there, display or no display.
Part of the noise created by the display is involved with the 55 volt switching supply. This will be removed in the Receiver. The receiver will still use the same wireless card used in the SB2,3, and Transporter, I believe. If you use wired ethernet, the wireless card will not receive any power, so no noise.
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Wayne,
You might want to experiment with a Felix like power filter. You might just like what you hear. I am sure some of your customers would like it if they were able to have someone to do it for them.
Just a thought...Josh
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Hello Josh,
I would be very interested in experimenting with the Felix conditioner.
When I get caught up with some of the other projects I have going, I had planned on ordering in some of the parts to build a couple.
If Occam grants permission, and it sounds as good as most people have described, it may become an option in the power supplies I build.
Maybe even a stand alone unit to use with other PS.
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Part of the noise created by the display is involved with the 55 volt switching supply. This will be removed in the Receiver. The receiver will still use the same wireless card used in the SB2,3, and Transporter, I believe. If you use wired ethernet, the wireless card will not receive any power, so no noise.
Wayne,
I had to use an external wireless Ethernet adapter, because I had a bad noise problem with the internal card. When I use the Ethernet connector the noise goes way. I was unable to run a CAT5 cable from my router, so the only thing I could do was to connect my SB2 to a Buffalo wireless Ethernet adapter and placed it in a different location. There is no noise and the adapter works great. I can also connect other devices to the adapter.
Wayne,
You might want to experiment with a Felix like power filter. You might just like what you hear. I am sure some of your customers would like it if they were able to have someone to do it for them.
Just a thought...Josh
I built a Felix and use it with my Bolder PS. The PS I have was upgraded from the basic rev1. It has the 4 pole Jensen's with the different values to accommodate the case size. It has been a few months since I have listened to my system since I have been a little tied up serving a year in Iraq, but from what I remember the sound floor seemed to be lower and better sound stage. When I get back I plan to try some different CMCs to see what effect they will have on the sound.
Brad
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Part of the noise created by the display is involved with the 55 volt switching supply. This will be removed in the Receiver. The receiver will still use the same wireless card used in the SB2,3, and Transporter, I believe. If you use wired ethernet, the wireless card will not receive any power, so no noise.
Now that is an interesting idea for something anyone can do!
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I use my Rev 1 with Jensen's with a Felicia, which I believe is the spiritual predecessor to the Felix. It is not being removed from my system, that is for sure!
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This is not something that will be done overnight. It will be a long haul. A very rough guestimate of the faceplate and chassis would be $500.00. That could end up being off by quite a bit. That would just be for the parts. No mods. A completely tricked out SB in a new box with high end power supplies, clocks and tube stage could end up over $6000.00.
$6000.00... YIKES!
I have been following your SB3 mods with great interest, but this seems crazy. For $6000 wouldn't you be better off just building a computer, you could even make it passively cooled, so no fan, and then using a great DAC.
With a 1TB hard drive, and a good sound card for outputting in digital, that would maybe cost $1000-$1500 if you do it youself, and you'll have a big screen, which leaves open many many choices for what to display. That then leaves $4500-$5000 for a DAC.
I just can't see how a SB3 could ever be better that the option above, therefore, I would say a $6000 SB3 is pretty silly.
I hate how my first post in the bolder circle is a bit negative, especially because I think the work you are doing on the SB3, and now the Duet is wonderful, but I really felt I should say something.
Any thoughts?
-West
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I just can't see how a SB3 could ever be better that the option above, therefore, I would say a $6000 SB3 is pretty silly.
I hate how my first post in the bolder circle is a bit negative, especially because I think the work you are doing on the SB3, and now the Duet is wonderful, but I really felt I should say something.
Any thoughts?
Yeah, it stretches the boundaries of common sense into all new territory. Could also start with the far superior Transporter, although putting $4k into that platform is also way over the top.
Then again... if someone is willing to shell out $6k on mods for a $300 piece of equipment, it's their money... Caveat emptor and all that.
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6,000 is expensive, but that's for a tube output stage and basically replaced everything along with a new box. I have one of Wayne's modded SBs and it cost a lot less than that, and has still beat everything I have in terms of DACs, tube-based CD players, and transports.
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I guess the question is how much of the $6000 is "diminishing returns" for amount invested past a certain point? I am wondering if a lot of the money could forgo with just superior AC line conditioning, and perhaps DC...
Frankly I think the diminishing returns factor will be pretty small and it will only get better and better.... Not that I will ever know :) . $$$$$ It is just hard to think of a small thing becoming so elaborate without loosing what you started with. However in inquiring in making his completely own design of a SB functioning device, it simply seems to complicated, time investment ridiculous, and resources extensive, to really consider.
If $6000 does sound better, Wayne will let you know, and it will if he says so... I mean I would buy three or four of the modded SB's before a Wadia cd player at the same price!
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The Rebox project has been slowly moving along.
It just got a BIG kick in the butt.
Denny has sent me a few shots of his redesigned front panel for the SB3
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14854)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14855)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14856)
I should have the new faceplates here by the end of the month.
The new clock is ready to be installed. I have a BOLDER Buffer board ready to go in one and just have to order in some parts for the tube output version.
With any luck, there will be a few of these at RMAF :wink:
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Very nice. My preference would be a nice, straightforward brushed aluminum faceplate, but those are very well done.
I'm surprised that you don't take the opportunity to place a power on/off switch on the front of the box. Something, IMO, that is sorely missing from the Squeezebox. Nothing ticks me off more than having to unplug the Squeezebox to reset it, rather than being able to use a simple power switch.
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Love those faceplates....he really did an excellent job!
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The Rebox project has been slowly moving along.
It just got a BIG kick in the butt.
Denny has sent me a few shots of his redesigned front panel for the SB3
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14854)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14855)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14856)
I should have the new faceplates here by the end of the month.
The new clock is ready to be installed. I have a BOLDER Buffer board ready to go in one and just have to order in some parts for the tube output version.
With any luck, there will be a few of these at RMAF :wink:
Looking very good Wayne! :thumb:
I can't wait to see and hear this at RMAF.
George
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Looks really good, Wayne! It provides an attractive, clean look, and the understated logo on the lower left adds a nice touch.
Hmmm... Google says I'm 5.3 miles away from you, so if you ever want to test that little guy in another system, feel free to give me a call! :D (Or at least, give me a call in a few months when I'm actually moved in and have my rig up and running again.)
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Brian,
Congrats on finally getting a house! Let me know where you are and if you need some help moving in. It's the least I can do after you helped me move out of RMAF last year.
I'll let you know when I get one of these bad boys up and running.
George and Josh,
Thanks for the comments. The Rebox and a DUET mod or two should be at RMAF. BOLDER Cable and TweekGeek will be combining forces and showing in THREE rooms :o We will have two on the 10th floor and one on the 9th.
JEaton,
An aluminum faceplate is possible. If Denny is willing to release the CAD work he did for these, I do have someone here in Denver who can machine aluminum. It won't be cheap, as a one off, but it can be done.
I, personally, do not care for any kind of switch in either AC or signal. I can install a power switch on the back plate of the chassis, if so desired.
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NIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice
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Denny does some really nice work, I am in love with that 2nd option, with the streaked effect - wonder what kind of wood that is?
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Spalted Ash or Sycamore?
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Congrats on finally getting a house! Let me know where you are and if you need some help moving in. It's the least I can do after you helped me move out of RMAF last year.
Hey Wayne, nothing owed there - I was glad to help, and you've been generous already! As for moving in, the moving company should take care of most of it. I just have months of box diving ahead of me to find everything! I'll shoot you my address via PM once I'm "home".
I'll let you know when I get one of these bad boys up and running.
:thumb:
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What's about this :D
http://www.rexdiy.com/smf/index.php?topic=3074.from1213508986;topicseen#msg16485
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any news on this project wayne? has it been discontinued or is there a ballpark price?
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Hello,
The project has not been discontinued. With any luck, it will debut at RMAF.
Currently I am still waiting for Denny to send me the faceplates from Canada. Once those arrive, the final assembly and fine tuning will take place.
Thank you for your interest.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13563)
Here is a quick shot of the layout of the interior of the Re-Box.
Next, will be wiring all the parts together.
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Is it still on schedule to be at rmaf? Not that it's going to be in my price range, but it would be great to blow so many sources away in a fit and tidy package that reviews can gush over... Good luck!
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Thank you, Max.
With any luck everything will be working in time for RMAF. If I can't get it up and running in time, I will at least have it there to look at :roll:
I should have a modded DUET around for back-up.
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There have been a few changes in the internal layout and configuration.
The clock is not going to be used in this unit. I changed the power supplies a bit. I installed a completely separate PS to run the display and network functions. This leaves the Ultimate PS to supply just the DAC chip and the Hynes Regulator for the clock. Complete isolation from the internal switching PS and the display.
The Re-Box has been up and running for close to a week. It is sounding VERY nice. I think (hope) that most who hear will come away impressed with what kind of sound can come from a SqueezeBox Classic with a few (thousand) dollars worth of mods :roll:
Here is another shot of the three faceplates that Denny sent down.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=16359)
The top is a Spalted Maple that has been dyed. The middle is Lacewood and the bottom is Padauk.
I plan on using the Lacewood at RMAF.