AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: desmond3273 on 31 May 2013, 04:53 pm
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Hello all, I'm brand new to this forum and I'm hoping you can help me. I'm looking to move to an all tube system. I know virtually nothing but I have done quite a lot of research lately. During that research I came across the Omega speakers and Decware amps. I'm graduating college soon(finally) and will probably start obtaining equipment then. I'm looking for a speaker that has a huge soundstage and is great for music and movies. I was looking at the floor standing model and was wondering if that would fit the bill. The room is about 11x13 with 8 ft ceilings. No room treatments yet but will work in it. I don't want to do a traditional 5.1 hoping a 2.1 with great soundstage and depth will suffice and also make me want to listen to more music than movie watching. Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
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Hi desmond3273,
Many thanks for your post and welcome to our forum.
Sounds like your heading in the right direction with your choices and the Decware is a wonderful amp. All my speakers sound great with them and I also like the idea of going 2.1 as I do myself.
The best speakers in terms of soundstage performance would be the Super 3 series and if you have the room, the new MultiPoint 3 series. They are a bipole/ diople configuration and user switchable between the 2 as well as 4 or 16 ohm. Finishing up the floorstanding version right now and will have it posted next week.
The MultiPoint will give you a huge, wide and, deep soundstage as well as be able to handle more complex music and HT. The Hoyt Type sub will blend in perfectly.
Thanks again,
Louis
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Thank you for replying Louis. Where can I find the Multipoint series?
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Sorry I just saw where you'll have them posted next week.
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Thanks desmond3273,
I'm also working on larger versions too with 6.5" drivers too.
Thanks,
Louis
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Good to know that some young whippersnappers have the audio bug, that it's not just us old farts!
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I'm extremely green but I'm willing to learn as much as I can. I don't want to fall in the habit of buying just name brand equipment but equipment that is American made and puts out exceptional sound.
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Make sure to wander over to the bass circle to learn about the advantage of multiple subs. An 11 x 13 x 8 ft room won't need much bass help (or even big drivers from the main speakers) to fill it up, but standing waves (think bass waves vs. mid/treble rays) is another matter. Of course down the road, the room could change.
In a room that size (and the near field setup required), single driver speakers are ideal.
Where are you located? I've got six GIK 244 absorption panels that I would sell to the right guy but frankly I find that with the right speakers (single driver, duh) and room shape/setup ala Cardas treatments aren't needed.
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desmond3273,
There are room dimensions that have inherently good acoustics and some that don't, and your room is very close to one of the "magic" sets of dimensions at 11'W x 13'L x 8'H. Some rooms need treatment more than others, but I would try without first and see how your system sounds in the untreated room. The picture below (circa 2010) was taken in a room the same dimensions as yours (the panorama distorts the right wall, but the room is a rectangle) . The system with the sub is on the 11' wall and it's soundstage was huge, both wide and deep. The amp was a Decware SE84C+, the DAC was an Audio Zone DAC One, the speakers were the hemp coned Omega Super 5 Monitors, and the sub was the Omega Deep Hemp. The system on the long wall was an Audio Sector Integrated, Audio Sector DAC, and the hemp coned Omega Super 3i Monitors. Even though it was on the long wall, this system was also sublime. The speakers sitting by themselves are the Omega Super 5XRS which also had stunning performance(I have heard many Omega speakers over the years and not one is a dud). At the close end of the picture was my computer desk and the favourite system on there was the Decware SE84C+ or the Audio Zone Amp STi with the KingRex UD-01 DAC with upgraded power supply. The sound at the computer desk was also off the charts good. Yes, the equipment was terrific, but that room had such good acoustics that it could bring the best out of my systems. One thing that helped was that opposing walls were different; bare vs curtain, and bare vs computer desk, closet and listener. The acoustics were a perfect balance between dead and lively.
Some of the equipment in the room picture is discontinued, but only for the sake of improvement. Omega has replaced their 4.5" hemp cone with the new RS5 driver which is a marked improvement over the hemp cone. The only sub available now from Omega is the Hoyt-Bedford Type 3 which is hundreds of dollars less than the Deep Hemp and probably equal in performance due to it's improved driver. The Decware SE84C+ is now the SuperZen, but still only 2w/ch. The Audio Zone DAC One is to my knowledge still available, and if your digital collection is mostly CD quality you won't likely do better.
Here is my recommendation for a mostly music/some home theatre 2.1 system:
Ideal Innovations Elite 80 amp (pictured below): This Canadian made amp has 20w/ch of very punchy and dynamic power with better and more defined bass than the Decware. It is very musical, but has the headroom to deal with the demands of home theatre. It also is a great match with any Omega or Hoyt-Bedford speaker.
Omega Super 3T or E on Sound Anchor stands: Either of these speakers will be a good replacement for the Super 5 Monitor. Their huge sound seems to defy the laws of audio.
Hoyt-Bedford Type 3 sub: Start with one sub and try to emulate the system at the end of the room in the picture.
Audio Zone DAC One if you have mostly CDs, or KingRex UD 384 with UPower battery for higher rez files: Both these DACs get under the $1000 mark and their performance is incredible.
Speaker wire: 20-22G single core OFC copper with either non soldered bananas or no terminations at all. Both Louis at Omega and myself
agree this type of wire is the best match for his highly efficient speakers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81524)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81525)
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Thank you for a very informative post. I'm brand new to tubes so forgive me if I ask silly question. I've seen in several posts the Ideal Innovations Elite 80 mentioned. I've also seen where individuals say Decware is really hard to beat. How do you know the difference between the two?
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If you can solder, or are willing to try, consider Transcendent Sound. OTL amps that are much better than the one you mentioned. And yeah I've owned both.
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I'm new to this too and considering the same Decware and Omegas. This suggested Ideal Innovations Elite 80 is just an amp, correct and not integrated? Any suggestions for a pre-amp to pair with it? The cheapest Decware integrated just has two inputs but for my system it works.
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If you can solder, or are willing to try, consider Transcendent Sound. OTL amps that are much better than the one you mentioned. And yeah I've owned both.
Hi Steve, Transcendent Sound is better than the Ideal Innovations Elite 80 or Decware or both?
Thanks!
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desmond3273
I know the difference between the Elite 80 and the Decware because I currently own the latest in both amps. To say the Transcendent OTL is better than either the Elite 80 or Decware, one would have to have these models side by side in the same system, and then it comes down to personal taste as each amp will bring a different flavour to the table. Also, all my listening with these amps has been with Omega and Hoyt-Bedford speakers, which are what you mentioned. These two amps have wonderful synergy with Omega and Hoyt-Bedford, and in properly set up audio the whole is always greater than the sum of the parts. The Elite 80 is not only a great sounding amp, but the build quality is 1950s - built to last by one of the best outfits I have ever encountered in my many years in audio.
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Thanks Canada Rob. If you don't mind me asking, which Transcendent Sound amp are you using?
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Also what is the difference between the Omega and Hoyte-Bedford lines? I've noticed the Hoyte-Bedford speakers are more efficient but does it matter since both have no crossovers?
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Also what is the difference between the Omega and Hoyte-Bedford lines? I've noticed the Hoyte-Bedford speakers are more efficient but does it matter since both have no crossovers?
Understanding differences between products (especially from different vendors) takes some "reading between the lines". Hoyt-Bedford is targeted towards the entry level/lower cost market and so be more forgiving lesser systems. (Not having crossovers does make for an easier to drive speaker, all else being equal.)
Regarding the tube amps mentioned above, you'd have to do more research or be able to listen for yourself. I followed Decware for years during which time I listened to everything they built. Their goal "sound" (every vendor/audiophile has one) was detail and image density without tube warmth, sort of solid state done right (a backhanded complement to tube guys). Bottom line, its a matter of personal taste.
Glad to see you're looking at speakers and amps together. I'm a "speaker guy" so will always promote shopping speakers first as providing the biggest factor to system matching and sound, but doing so with amplifier options in mind is very smart.
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Hoyt-Bedford is targeted towards the entry level/lower cost market and so be more forgiving lesser systems.
Having owned both I totally disagree.
IMO the division used to be based on a more streamlined H-B lineup (8" only) providing Omega sound at a lower price.
Now it is driver size, 4" and 6" Omega, 8" H-B, both streamlined to provide maximum value.
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Dear Desmond; Since no one mentioned Bottlehead kits, I will be pleased to do so. They resurrected a very early single-ended tube topology called Parallel Feed, where the power supply is carried by a choke and the output transformer carries only the signal. The result is that both pieces of iron can be optimized for their respective job. In sonic terms the result is deeper more articulate bass, extended highs, and complete isolation of the power supply. They produce a line of kits that can almost make up a complete system, needing only a turntable or player to supply a program. In addition, the Bottlehead Forum has hundreds of builders standing by online to walk you out of trouble if you stumble during the build. Also, the same Forum will have innumerable tips for hot-rodding their already hot products. My system is all-BH and drives the Omega Super5's to stunning Beauty with 3.5 watts per side in a 15x 19 room.
Google bottlehead.com for more. Cheers, Hank
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I like Canada Rob's suggestions, mine would be close...
- I'd also consider an EL34 SET, that tube produces a good amount of power for the RS5 driver. Some amps have UL mode which boosts an EL34 to ~10wpc. I'd prefer a SET to a PP amp.
- For speaker wire (and all wire) UPOCC copper is the best choice and is far superior to regular high purity OFC copper. A 20g speaker wire works great for my Omegas. A single solid core of wire is better than stranded, but even better than that is multiple runs of individually insulated wires.
- Look at Schiit audio for a DAC, I use a Bifrost which is a good value for the money. It is also made in the USA and upgradeable so it won't be obsolete next year.
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Hoyt-Bedford is not a "budget" or lower line of Omega. They are a different line with often a different target audience, and happen to be quite underpriced. One reason Louis is able to produce them so reasonably is due to their more "cookie cutter" approach to manufacturing: two cabinets, one driver, a sub that fits under either, and a nice set of speaker stands made just for them. Choose your finish. The entire line of Hoyt-Bedford speakers represents extreme value, but cheap or "budget" they are not. They have all the care and quality Louis puts into all his speakers. They are the masters of tone, and a more effortless speaker I have yet to hear.
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I assume the Hoyte-Bedford and Omega lines both share similar qualities. How does the Hoyte-Bedford line handle complex music or movies? I like a variety of music but at times I love to rock out. Also how difficult is it to build a bottlehead amp? I'm so new to tubes I have to look up everything that is being said. Thanks for the responses and the patience with a new guy.
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desmond3273,
Bear one thing in mind, tubes and single driver speakers are geared toward music. The Hoyt-Bedfords and Omegas do share similar qualities in that they both have very palpable transparent sound, insane imaging (the Hoyts being more ethereal, and the Omegas more focused), and "you are there" midrange. The RS5 based Omegas are electrostatic fast, and the Hoyts are a little slower, but warmer, giving them a slightly fuller, more relaxed sound. The Hoyts with no crossover and true 97db efficiency will run on fumes, making them a great match for the likes of any quality flea power amp, tube or solid state. The Super 3XRS and the Super 3S are more extended at both ends of the frequency spectrum, but the sound a little cooler than the Hoyt Type 1 or 1.5.
Getting back to your original post on this thread, I stick to my same recommendation. Even though the Elite 80 amp has a dryer sound than the liquid sound of a good single ended amp, it has strengths (being a push pull) that a low powered single ended amp can't match, such as punch, dynamics, and the ability to control the speaker driver on the bottom end which produces a nice tight, defined bass. The Elite 80 is also very fast and detailed, not to mention the 20w/ch and over spec'd iron give this amp lots of headroom over a low powered single ended amp. These qualities make it IMO more suitable to your desired application. A few years back, Affordable Audio magazine give The Elite 80 the integrated amp of the year award.
Since my last post I have learned Louis is talking about reintroducing the Super 5 Monitor (pictured in the 2.1 system at the end of the room) and the Super 3i (pictured closer) with the new RS5 driver. Louis says they are incredible with the new driver, so I would heartily add to my recommendation either of those two speakers. I loved them both when they had the old HempCone, and the new RS5 driver will be a big upgrade. Due to it's lightning speed, the RS5 driver will be a good choice for more complex music and the highly swinging dynamics of home theatre, provided you are not after party volumes. Also, the Hoyt-Bedford Type 3 sub will have no trouble keeping up with any Omega or Hoyt speaker.
Lastly, your choice of amp could reflect how your sub sounds as most of these minimalist tube amps have no pre-outs, so the sub gets it's signal from the speaker outs on the amp which is generally the best way to set up a sub in a 2.1 system anyway.....in most cases. Being that a single ended amp has a less defined bass than a push pull, the sub will also have a less defined bass as it essentially mimics the amp it is hooked up to. A push pull amp with it's more defined bass will be reflected in a more defined bass from the sub. If you have a single ended amp with pre-outs or have a preamp with line out or sub out, then I would consider that route, as the sub will now reflect the source (DAC, CD, phono, etc.), making it have a more defined bass than what it can get from the speaker terminals on the single ended amp.
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Any new info on the Multipoint series?
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Hi desmond3273,
Just waiting for a new backdrop so I can post the pictures. I have the MultiPoint 39 done in EKO Fumed Oak.
I'm looking into this setup more and more and will make a stand-mount next. I also want to explore a modular setup too.
This should be very interesting incorporating the new Model 7F and 7A into Multipoint.
The sound with RS5's is huge though. It can also handle much more complex material.
Thanks,
Louis
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Thanks Louis. I'm excited. Can't wait to see it.