[audionutter]

Just to add in my experience comparing the B&W CDM7's with the PMC LB1's. Same room, not dealer demo. CD transport source used was Denon 2900 DVD player and Marantz CD-94II with digital coaxial output into a Tag McLaren AV32R pre-amp processor, then matching Tag mcLaren power amp. Tag digital cable, pure silver interconnecta nd QED Genesis silver speaker cables. Variety of music.

In this setup, with room treatment ala "live end, dead end" the B&W's were not sharp or fatiguing at all. In fact they were very smooth and musical, even with processed pop. The PMC on the other hand sounded fine but lacked depth, did not image that well or had as wide a soundstage. Also, the PMC's could not sustain moderate levels of SPL and this is a real limiting factor for PMC speakers. They just can't go loud.

I've also listened to the PMC's with the Bryston pre-amp and to be honest the finding were the same. Listening to the TB1 and DB1 at the dealers without direct B&W comparison suggessted that PMC speakers are purposely designed with a reduced midrange output so that the weaker bass/lower bass SPL level would not be too apparent.

Having said that, the PMC's tend to be very forgiving of the matching amp/source equipment. You can pair them with cheaper components and they won't show up the deficiencies of the cheaper components. Which I find surprising sice PMC's are widely used in professional studios for monitoring purposes.

[Yogus]

I guess with everything it comes down to personal preference.

Prior to purchasing my PMC FB1s, I compared them with B&W704s.

The 704 were far too laidback and polite in comparison to the mild restraint showed by the FB1s. The bass was also a little too strong and a bit lumpy.

As for the loudness capability of PMC speakers, have you tried the bigger floorstanders? (FB1s, OB1s, etc?) My FB1s with 4BSSTs have no issues going loud and does so without any compression.

The TB1 (replaced with TB2+ now) and DB1s are much smaller and would obviously not have the same loudness capabilities as the bigger floorstanders.

P.s I believe the LB1s are a 15 year old design?

[guest2521]

Hi,

As you say the fact that the PMCs are studio monitors is at odds with your findings - I suspect a component elsewhere in the system was the cause of your problem and the B&W was masking it. The strongest characterisitics of pmc are wide band dynamics, low end spl due to transmission line design and being ruthlessly revealing. I suspect the amplification used in the dem and the source were responsible. I can't reconcile your comments at all with my experience or the generally excepted characteristics of pmc speakers. Give the bryston pre a miss though - power amps are great but the pre is just average. I won PMC MB2 triamped with a pair of 7b-st and a pair of 4b-st in a tri-amped arrangement.

Nick.

[guest2521]

that should be "own" not "won" .... I wish ...

[nicolasb]

Give the bryston pre a miss though - power amps are great but the pre is just average.

Does the new BP26 meet your criteria for "great" or is it merely "average" too?

[guest2521]

I havent heard it - I would hope it is a big improvement!

[geldis]

So my BP25 is just average?

regards

[audionutter]

I don't want to inflame anyone but just to share some findings when we recently did a comparison of the BP20 against a passive pre-amp. The BP 20 as I understand it is an all analogue design and identical to the BP25 except for no remote control capability. The passive pre-amp consisted of a DACT stepped attenuator (CT2), paired with a Seiden 6 step source selector and wired with pure silver wires and gold plated RCA sockets. Incidentally the preamp cost a total of US $250 whilst the Bryston is obviously more. Speakers were PMC's too.

It was after completing this blinded test that I realised passive pre-amps are so much better than any analogue based pre-amp without DAC. Of course, this only applies if you don't need a phono stage and have a source capable enough to drive a passive preamp, which includes most line level sources nowadays.

The sound quality from the passive pre-amp is really very good and as close to the source as possible. The reason we know this is becasue the CD player has variable level control (but even at the lowest setting was louder than normal listening levels, hence the need for a pre-amp volume control). Intemrs of clarity, soundtage, imaging and depth the passive was distinctly better than the BP20. Even for dynamics it is better, the old fallacy that passives lacked dynamics wasn't evident, probably because the source had enough drive and the power amps were muscular enough. The best way of describing the differences is to liken it to a "veil" being lifted across the speakers when the passive was used comapred to the BP20.

At this point I would like to say the findings have been the same with different active all analogue pre-amps, this is not a bash at the BP20 cos the BP20 was the best amongst all the active all analogue preamps we tested. It is more of how good passive pre-amps can be, compared to active ones. The passive pre-amps are ruthlessly revealing though, so if your power amps or source or speakers are not up to the job you will hear it. Makes sense, cos a passive preamp is just basically a straight wire with some resistors and therefore much cleaner/shorter in signal path comapred to active pre-amps. Plus the price was so much cheaper!

It was after this that I turned my back on active all analogue pre-amps, unless they have some other function built in that I need/want, such as a DAC/processor ability. If you ever get a chance to try good quality passive pre-amps, try them and you may then believe what I have just posted.

[geldis]

Ok.  I understand what you mean.
Im    again!
regards

[guest2521]

To me it seemed a bit average compared with other alternatives. Something like the avi preamp beat it comfortably all around at half the price. In the end I went a slightly different way. I too use a high quality balanced stepped attentuator, but a custom built one of even higher quality and performance than the dact but at about 5 times the cost.  The pre also contains a single ended to balanced converter before the attenuator and then three pairs of balanced line drivers to drive the brystons I use to triamp the PMC MB2s. The very slight extra signal processing cost is more than offset by using the brystons in balanced mode and incidentally buffers the attentuator - gaining the best of passive and active approaches in a single unit. I also use a high quality source selector. My phono unit is also custom built. I can provide details to anyone that is interested.

Nick.

[critofur]

B&W has great marketing.  Looking at their speakers and literature I couldn't help but be impressed.  Several times I auditioned them, each time, expecting to be impressed with the sound as I was with their marketing.  Each time, within minutes they gave me a headache and made me want to either leave, or turn them off.  All I can remember about their sound (models ranging from mid - top of the line) was that they were unpleasant.  It's either the upper midrange or lower tweeter that grates on me so, I believe.

Let me post a disclaimer: I dislike most speakers I've listened to over the last 10 - 15 years or so, and I'm fairly picky.  The only speakers I've heard that I actually really liked listening to more than briefly were the Revel Salon Ultimas.  I've also heard cheap paper cone driver 2 ways bookshelf speakers that I've liked very well, those were some old "db" brand circa ~ 1977 or so, with a paper cone/Alu dustcap tweeter.

I'm hoping to find some sort of fairly inexpensive DIY speakers to bring the pleasure of listening to music back to me after it's been pretty much gone from my life for the past 15 years or so.

The PMC FB1 speakers mentioned in this thread interested me because one pair of the many various drivers I have to experiment with are the Vifa P17-WJ woofers used in the PMC FB1, and, I'm inclined to try to find the PMC FB1 design and copy it (the cabinet/TL part anyway, prob. use a diff. tweeter) for myself out of curiosity.

[mvwhiting_83]

From what I've heard with B&W, they are a brand that I just cannot get into.... i'm always looking to hear new speakers, and see what the competition has to offer...  I've heard their higher end with McIntosh, Naim, Bryston, among others.  They offer this sort of in your face wall of sound that I find irritating, that said I find their lower bookshelf speakers a relative joy for the price.  Dealers seem to feel the same way but carry it anyway - The name recognition for a moderately uneducated market brings in customers - (the market for ya' )....  There are a relatively limited number of speakers out there that I find really like... B&W is most definitely not one of them.  I've demoed our TB2i against some model costing three times the amount of widely known brands... Outperforming in nearly every way with unanimous approval of all witnesses

As for PMC's being forgiving... I think not.  Studio Monitors absolutely must present sonically, without color or enhancement, the signal which they are fed so one can absolutely be sure that the quality of music, score, cinema is at the level they deem sufficient for mass presentation....  From a tech standpoint our consumer models are derived from a studio heritage spaning 20 years, each generation building and improving on the prior.  PMC speakers are known for their revealing and neutral presentation.....  So says our client list.

That's just my input, some may say biased at that, but at PMC we welcome A/B... And there brands that I think offer healthy competition.

[mvwhiting_83]

I guess with everything it comes down to personal preference.

Prior to purchasing my PMC FB1s, I compared them with B&W704s.

The 704 were far too laidback and polite in comparison to the mild restraint showed by the FB1s. The bass was also a little too strong and a bit lumpy.

As for the loudness capability of PMC speakers, have you tried the bigger floorstanders? (FB1s, OB1s, etc?) My FB1s with 4BSSTs have no issues going loud and does so without any compression.

The TB1 (replaced with TB2+ now) and DB1s are much smaller and would obviously not have the same loudness capabilities as the bigger floorstanders.

P.s I believe the LB1s are a 15 year old design?

The LB1's are somewhere around there - agewise...  For such a small speaker to give 35hz with grace is uncanny.  They were recommend to be powered with up to 300w....  An extremely capable and powerful Little Box 1.

Our ATL allows for much more dynamic power & range along with lower distortion.  So loudness isn't always applicable, you can still hear the low end and dynamics with PMC's in between 50-70 db which is moderately low playback level. ATL-wise, the bigger you go, we can get upwards of 130+db!

[Mattyboy]

Just to switch things up a bit here.. aa

I have owed TB2+'s and liked them but for what I percieved as a slow bass..

I have also tried FB1 's in the past...same drivers longer folded transmission so lower base...

I found the ATC's much more to my liking..hello fast bass hello superb midrange hello amazing high frequencies all natural effortless and clean as a whistle ...no distortion no compression..

Nice 

[mvwhiting_83]

ATC makes pretty decent kit...  easily outperforming any B&W.  PMC vs. ATC is a good A/B.

[Viajero5000]

I suppose a lot of these arguments boil down to room and system setup and personal taste; the few B&W speakers I have heard have sounded quite disappointing to me. Equally, I've never found PMC bass to be 'slow'; in fact, in the smaller models, I've found it to be clean and quick. That said, I would only buy the bigger speakers in the PMC line up (OB1 and above) for a satisfying listening experience.

[Russell Dawkins]

I found the ATC's much more to my liking..hello fast bass hello superb midrange hello amazing high frequencies all natural effortless and clean as a whistle ...no distortion no compression..

... and goodbye money! 

ATCs are much more expensive than their apparent competition from K+H and have very similar configurations (3" mid dome, for example). In two recent comparisons in Slovenia, in high end studios with the K+H 0300s and 0410s (in particular) against the ATC SCM50s (and other highly respected studio monitors) and SCM150s, the K+Hs were preferred by all in attendance to the ATCs and all the others. The studio owner then ordered a surround set of K+H ( 3 x 0410-L,C,R; 2 x 0300-LS,RS; 2 x 0810 subs) and put his ATC SCM50s up for sale.

A couple of experienced listeners have called the 0410 simply the best speaker they have ever heard. It's a 10", 3", 1" three way with a total of 700 wrms available from the three internal amplifiers. If my 0300 is anything to go by, and it's all I have to go by, I can believe what is said about the 0410 - that everything is there, there is no hype and it's all effortless and undistorted.

I just realized I have strayed far off topic, but feel compelled to let this stand for the information of those looking for this type of speaker.
Moderator, if you feel this is beyond the pale, I won't be even slightly insulted if you delete it.
The difference in price is really surprising and gratifying.

[vegasdave]

Yeah, ATCs are beaucoup bucks. It never ceases to amaze me what these speaker companies charge.

[RonCH]

Has anyone compared the Nautilus 803D to speakers in the PMC range.  I'm particularly interested in the results when these speakers are driven by two 7B SSTs.

Anyone heard the PMC PB1i speakers yet?

Thanks

[mvwhiting_83]

I've compared the OB1i's to the 802, 803S, and 803D....  Like someone said previously, the bass performance on pretty much all of the B&W's I have heard (excluding their bookshelf speakers) is lumpy and lacks any remnant of definition for anything below 380hz. I've heard them with the McIntosh MC 402 and later a Bryston 4B.  While the OB1i wasn't as large as the B&W's and couldn't handle all 400 watts the Mac had to give.... It definitely retained a more honest and balanced sound, where the 800's all sounded loud and beligerent...  But some people just really like loud speakers. 

The PB1i >>> The OB1i.  When Peter designs his speakers he really likes to get a sense of what they are capble of handling.  So he was clipping a 14B.... Without a whimper from the PB1i  I think red is his favorite color aa!  So the PB1i against any B&W with 7B's will be black and white.