AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: Fife on 24 Feb 2004, 07:27 pm
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Any Bryston Amp owners compared the two?
Considering the following:
B&W CDM 1NT/SE vs. PMC TB2/DB1
Have any people owned or heard both of them?
Thanks in advance.
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Haven't compared the two, but the Bryston products match up well with the B&Ws (IMO). I'm still using a 3BST with a pair of M805s after 5 years and have been very happy with them for my starting system.
I've heard both ST and SST with the entire Nautilus line and was quite impressed. Of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. There are a lot of other components that play a large factor (preamp, cabling, room setting, etc).
I'm still set on using Bryston products when I move to the next level of speakers, whatever that might be. Hope that helps you with one half of the equation.
-KJ
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I did listen to what I think used to be called the CDM 7 series B&W floor-stander with a Bryston 3BST and BP25 preamp with Rotel 991 CD player.
We heard the system with the B&W's first and it was kind of ho-hum, pleasant I guess, but not very engaging.
We switched over to a pair of PMC FB1's and the difference was like night and day. Pace, rhythm, timing in spades, it was like they wanted to get up and dance.
I'm sure that the design philosophy extends to the bookshelfs that you are asking about. I've always found the B&W's to be kind of slow.
A dealer in Toronto sells the B&W because of the name. They admit that at lower prices there are plenty of other makes that they carry that are better performers AND better value. Same dealer was blowing out 805 Nautilus speakers at $2,599 cdn because he couldn't sell them at the list of $3,500.
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Thanks for your replies.
Funny how I have brought my Bryston to my friends house who has both the B&W Matrix 805's and the CDM 7NT's. Havent tried the Bryston 4BST with the 805 but with the 7NT, the sound is quite good. However, my friend is currently using an older Accuphase and the sound seems warmer.
I think its time to demo some PMC's! :D
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Allezvite - Not to get on a B&W discussion, but could you clarify how exactly the speakers you heard sounded "slow?" Did they sound out of phase? Not broken in? Just trying to understand. I've never listened to any other B&W products below the 800 line so I'm trying to imagine what you describe.
The Bryston/B&W combination always sounded very neutral to me. Not overly bright and the Bryston amps provide great clarity. I'll admit the B&Ws are high on the "bang for the buck" scale. Fortunately, I purchased mine well below MSRP.
At any rate, the Bryston factor certainly seems to bring the best out of the speakers I've heard to date. I'm sure they only help with the PMCs as well.
-KJ
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I use 2 x 7B SST to drive my B&W Nautilus 800s and a 6B SST with my Nautilus 803 rears and HTM1 center. You do need big amps to get the best out of them but I wouldn't describe the bass as slow. The 800s are accurate rather than in your face and go very low yet controlled. They are still the best sounding speakersI've heard for £11000/$16000 a pair.
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Allezvite - Not to get on a B&W discussion, but could you clarify how exactly the speakers you heard sounded "slow?" Did they sound out of phase? Not broken in? Just trying to understand. I've never listened to any other B&W products below the 800 line so I'm trying to imagine what you describe.
The Bryston/B&W combination always sounded very neutral to me. Not overly bright and the Bryston amps provide great clarity. I'll admit the B&Ws are high on the "bang for the buck" scale. Fortunately, I pu ...
Granted, a good question. My take on "slow" is this:
A "slow" speaker will tend to average out the dynamic peaks a bit, everything comes out sounding nice but not necessarily lively. The speed at which the woofers start and stop is definitely a consideration too. Some transducers seem to accelerate and stop quicker than others. This is both a function of electrical and mechanical design (efficiency, meaning how efficient is the transducer at translating voltage to pistonic motion, plus weight, materials, suspension etc.). That is why you seldom see 12" and 15", or 18" woofers in speakers any more, too much inertia. Most dynamic speakers use multiple small woofers to obtain the cone area as opposed to single large units (generally speaking).
This is also why so many audiophiles are enamoured with the large panel speakers like Martin Logan, Quad ESL, Magnepan that use lightweight materials and are capable of responding quicker to the demands of the music signal with real snap and fast attack compared to cone speakers.
The average music signal features transient attacks (especially rock, jazz and dance music) that may go from nothing to +50db in microseconds. Some speakers are better than others at responding to this electrical signal and translating it into cone motion and consequently the movement of air.
A slow speaker tends to lose out in bass articulation, and pitch definition (the ability to tell one note from another and when it starts and stops).
Some speakers seem to energize a room more dynamically with the musical transients (snare & bass drum sounds) than others do, responding with more agility to the dynamic peaks and valleys of the music signal.
My Dad's old Rogers speakers are positively sleepy. They are pleasant and neutral but not dynamic at all. Some speakers CAN sound boring.
The folks over at Linn refer to PRAT. Pace, Rhythm, Timing. Does the sound of the system move you? Can you follow the singer, the beat, the words etc. better on one speaker system vs. the other? Sure you can!
Some speakers get your feet tapping and pull you into the performance, and some are ho-hum, good for background music but not good enough to command your attention for any length of time.
If this is sounding very subjective, I apologize, but system pace and timing is a feature of audio performance that the British have known about for years that we North Americans are just catching up on.
There was nothing wrong with the CDM7's when I listened to them, in fact the midrange was very liquid and engaging. In comparison, it is well known that the PMC FB1's can sound a bit bright. However, in the bass department, the PMC's, which I would consider a "fast" speaker were able to sound more bouncy and responsive to the rhythmic pulses of the music than the B&W's.
My two cents. May the flames begin.
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Well the majority of speakers in the market today are radial/cone type. Isn't the amp is the primary responsible for the speakers behaviour? Would a "FAST amp" and high damping factor dectates what the speaker should do? I need for enlightenment here.
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I auditioned both the B&W (N802 and N803) and PMC speakers (specifically OB1) about two months ago. I couldn't find a dealer that has both B&W and PMC so side by side comparison wasn't possible. THe source and AMPS components used were also quite different; so take this as a subjective opinion.
After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802. The OB1 was better than the N803. The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in. The OB1 just gave a very nice mid and high with somewhat inadequate bass. For a floorstanding speaker, I expected the OB1 to perform better in the low end. So, I bought a pair of N802.
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Putting your findings into consideration, It is very hard to compare speakers if the variables are not the same. I know because it happend to me.
Here is a good example. The speakers that I bought and auditioned sounded good in my dealer's showroom but when I bought it and brought it home, it lacked the bass and the dynamics that I had remembered when it was at the showroom. Several calls from the manufacturer and after days of moving the speakers around proved that it was the room acoustics. Everything was the same but the room dimensions. If I had not auditioned the speakers in the showroom, I would conclude that the speakers that I bought lacked the dynamics and the bass is anemic. As for me, finding the right speakers (the one i like) for my application is a slow and painfull process. I hope it is easier for you.
I auditioned both the B&W (N802 and N803) and PMC speakers (specifically OB1) about two months ago. I couldn't find a dealer that has both B&W and PMC so side by side comparison wasn't possible. THe source and AMPS components used were also quite different; so take this as a subjective opinion.
After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802. The OB1 was better than the N803. The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in. The OB1 j ...
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This is also why so many audiophiles are enamoured with the large panel speakers like Martin Logan, Quad ESL, Magnepan that use lightweight materials and are capable of responding quicker to the demands of the music signal with real snap and fast attack compared to cone speakers.
Would a cone design (such as the B&Ws or PMCs) provide a wider focal region in the listening area compared to a panel speaker? Ie, do I have a better chance of providing quality sound to those not sitting directly in the firing path with a cone design?
-KJ
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I have previously owned a pair of CDM 1 NT's and at the time of auditioning new amps BP25/4B SST I borrowed a pair of FB1's. The two speakers are really quite different in their voicing. The B+W's as with all most B+W's I have heard are rather bright in the upper midrange, this can lead to a sense of transparency allowing the listener to hear into the music better. This coupled with the metal tweeter can lead to a sound that is initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing. The CDM seemed to excel with classical and simple acoustic music however they seemed unable to keep up when playing rock, dance or other complex music. Also there seemed to be an overall lack of coherence when the going got busy.
The FB1 was a vast improvement on the CDM in almost every area, with the exception that the midrange on the FB1/OB1 (not sure about other models) is a bit restrained I felt that I had to listen at slightly higher volumes to achieve that same hear into the music feeling as with the CDM.
I am not saying that the midrange is better on the CDM its just quite different , bottom line would you prefer a slightly bright and possibly irritating speaker or one that is very neutral/slightly restrained that really excels with all types of music?.
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B&Ws are an "acquired taste". If you like it, you like it. But it's not all that accurate or low distortion, especially in the midrange. They are voiced with a forward upper mid and they purposely allow a lot of "breakup mode" distortion to pass through with the high 4kHz crossovers. That's why they sound "detailed" to some and "fatiguing" to others. It's really cone resonance. However, since most people seem to think of it as detail, I think they do it on purpose and rationalize it in their design briefs. If you read them, it seems like they had no choice but to use an FST/Kevlar midrange with high breakup problems when, in fact, there are multiple other solutions used by normal, clever speaker companies. But it's a "unique" solution to a simple problem. Kinda like having a big goverment in order to solve poverty. You don't solve the problem, but at least you have all the advantages of a big government going for you. :D
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I've gone on many trips to listen to speakers, and I'll always rate B&Ws way up there in the "I can't believe anyone likes these" category. I went one time with my friend and we listened to about 10 speakers in the 4k-10k range, and I had to turn off the B&W we were listening to -- it was ear-piercing. It was the only speaker I absolutely couldn't listen to for more than a minute (and we used the same songs on every speaker). We also went into another room and listened to the flagship (at the time) B&W, and it was only marginally better in terms of listenability.
They're definitely an acquired taste.
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I'm quite a fan of B&W's slightly-more-high-end speakers, but I've never cared for the cheaper models much. In particular I find the whole CDM NT range thoroughly annoying. They have a curious muffled quality, as if they're playing from the bottom of a basket full of socks.
The Nautilus 800 series, on the other hand, are quite good. I'm currently using a pair of Nautilus 803s and an HTM1 centre (driven by a 9B-ST and SP1.7) and it's a highly effective combination (or at least it would be if my living room didn't have such God-awful acoustics :evil: ).
I've never listened to the Nautilus 800, but nearly everyone I've spoken to who has has been absolutely bowled over by them, so long as they have adequate amplification (a pair of 7B-SSTs, for example). At the time they first came out they were regarded as a serious candidate for the best speakers in the world.
I've also not listened to any of the new 800 series, but, on paper at least, they should be rather fine. B&W claims that the 805S is, in all respects, more accurate than the old Signature 805, and that was a damned impressive speaker at £2500 a pair. If the 805S really does sound as good as that at only £1600 for the pair, every other manufacturer operating in that price bracket may as well just pack up and go home. :)
But maybe it doesnt, I don't know.
The specs of the 802D are also mightily impressive - potentially superior even to the old N800 (once you get out of the deep bass region, anyway).
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After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802. The OB1 was better than the N803. The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in. The OB1 just gave a very nice mid and high with somewhat inadequate bass. For a floorstanding speaker, I expected the OB1 to perform better in the low end. So, I bought a pair of N802.
Come on - it's not the same room, equipment or price range. The N802 is much more expansive than the ob1.
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B&W claims that the 805S is, in all respects, more accurate than the old Signature 805, and that was a damned impressive speaker at £2500 a pair.
That might be a stretch, but I would expect B&W to market the new line as such. I went and listened to the N803S and wasn't overly impressed (granted, it hadn't been broken in for more than a few hours). The old N802 was still easily a better speaker in every way. I hope for B&W's sake their Diamond line is a night and day improvement given the new pricing. :o
-KJ
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BTW, for anyone seriously comparing the before mentioned speakers, the N803S I listened to had the following setup (again keeping in mind they were barely broken in):
Rega Jupiter source
Bryston BP-25 pre-amp
Bryston 4B-SST amp
Kimber 8TC speaker cable
Kimber interconnects (exact model unknown)
Echo Buster room treatment across the board
-KJ
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Mind you, the 803S isn't supposed to compare to the old 802. Old 802 vs 803D would be a more interesting comparison.
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Mind you, the 803S isn't supposed to compare to the old 802. Old 802 vs 803D would be a more interesting comparison.
True. Guess I was hoping for more improvement over the old design for the $500 increase. Of course, it was probably short of being fully broken in by ohhhhh about 350 hours!
-KJ
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Just to add in my experience comparing the B&W CDM7's with the PMC LB1's. Same room, not dealer demo. CD transport source used was Denon 2900 DVD player and Marantz CD-94II with digital coaxial output into a Tag McLaren AV32R pre-amp processor, then matching Tag mcLaren power amp. Tag digital cable, pure silver interconnecta nd QED Genesis silver speaker cables. Variety of music.
In this setup, with room treatment ala "live end, dead end" the B&W's were not sharp or fatiguing at all. In fact they were very smooth and musical, even with processed pop. The PMC on the other hand sounded fine but lacked depth, did not image that well or had as wide a soundstage. Also, the PMC's could not sustain moderate levels of SPL and this is a real limiting factor for PMC speakers. They just can't go loud.
I've also listened to the PMC's with the Bryston pre-amp and to be honest the finding were the same. Listening to the TB1 and DB1 at the dealers without direct B&W comparison suggessted that PMC speakers are purposely designed with a reduced midrange output so that the weaker bass/lower bass SPL level would not be too apparent.
Having said that, the PMC's tend to be very forgiving of the matching amp/source equipment. You can pair them with cheaper components and they won't show up the deficiencies of the cheaper components. Which I find surprising sice PMC's are widely used in professional studios for monitoring purposes.
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I guess with everything it comes down to personal preference.
Prior to purchasing my PMC FB1s, I compared them with B&W704s.
The 704 were far too laidback and polite in comparison to the mild restraint showed by the FB1s. The bass was also a little too strong and a bit lumpy.
As for the loudness capability of PMC speakers, have you tried the bigger floorstanders? (FB1s, OB1s, etc?) My FB1s with 4BSSTs have no issues going loud and does so without any compression.
The TB1 (replaced with TB2+ now) and DB1s are much smaller and would obviously not have the same loudness capabilities as the bigger floorstanders.
P.s I believe the LB1s are a 15 year old design?
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Hi,
As you say the fact that the PMCs are studio monitors is at odds with your findings - I suspect a component elsewhere in the system was the cause of your problem and the B&W was masking it. The strongest characterisitics of pmc are wide band dynamics, low end spl due to transmission line design and being ruthlessly revealing. I suspect the amplification used in the dem and the source were responsible. I can't reconcile your comments at all with my experience or the generally excepted characteristics of pmc speakers. Give the bryston pre a miss though - power amps are great but the pre is just average. I won PMC MB2 triamped with a pair of 7b-st and a pair of 4b-st in a tri-amped arrangement.
Nick.
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that should be "own" not "won" .... I wish ...
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Give the bryston pre a miss though - power amps are great but the pre is just average.
Does the new BP26 meet your criteria for "great" or is it merely "average" too?
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I havent heard it - I would hope it is a big improvement!
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So my BP25 is just average? :cry:
regards
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I don't want to inflame anyone but just to share some findings when we recently did a comparison of the BP20 against a passive pre-amp. The BP 20 as I understand it is an all analogue design and identical to the BP25 except for no remote control capability. The passive pre-amp consisted of a DACT stepped attenuator (CT2), paired with a Seiden 6 step source selector and wired with pure silver wires and gold plated RCA sockets. Incidentally the preamp cost a total of US $250 whilst the Bryston is obviously more. Speakers were PMC's too.
It was after completing this blinded test that I realised passive pre-amps are so much better than any analogue based pre-amp without DAC. Of course, this only applies if you don't need a phono stage and have a source capable enough to drive a passive preamp, which includes most line level sources nowadays.
The sound quality from the passive pre-amp is really very good and as close to the source as possible. The reason we know this is becasue the CD player has variable level control (but even at the lowest setting was louder than normal listening levels, hence the need for a pre-amp volume control). Intemrs of clarity, soundtage, imaging and depth the passive was distinctly better than the BP20. Even for dynamics it is better, the old fallacy that passives lacked dynamics wasn't evident, probably because the source had enough drive and the power amps were muscular enough. The best way of describing the differences is to liken it to a "veil" being lifted across the speakers when the passive was used comapred to the BP20.
At this point I would like to say the findings have been the same with different active all analogue pre-amps, this is not a bash at the BP20 cos the BP20 was the best amongst all the active all analogue preamps we tested. It is more of how good passive pre-amps can be, compared to active ones. The passive pre-amps are ruthlessly revealing though, so if your power amps or source or speakers are not up to the job you will hear it. Makes sense, cos a passive preamp is just basically a straight wire with some resistors and therefore much cleaner/shorter in signal path comapred to active pre-amps. Plus the price was so much cheaper!
It was after this that I turned my back on active all analogue pre-amps, unless they have some other function built in that I need/want, such as a DAC/processor ability. If you ever get a chance to try good quality passive pre-amps, try them and you may then believe what I have just posted.
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Ok. I understand what you mean.
Im :) again!
regards
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To me it seemed a bit average compared with other alternatives. Something like the avi preamp beat it comfortably all around at half the price. In the end I went a slightly different way. I too use a high quality balanced stepped attentuator, but a custom built one of even higher quality and performance than the dact but at about 5 times the cost. The pre also contains a single ended to balanced converter before the attenuator and then three pairs of balanced line drivers to drive the brystons I use to triamp the PMC MB2s. The very slight extra signal processing cost is more than offset by using the brystons in balanced mode and incidentally buffers the attentuator - gaining the best of passive and active approaches in a single unit. I also use a high quality source selector. My phono unit is also custom built. I can provide details to anyone that is interested.
Nick.
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B&W has great marketing. Looking at their speakers and literature I couldn't help but be impressed. Several times I auditioned them, each time, expecting to be impressed with the sound as I was with their marketing. Each time, within minutes they gave me a headache and made me want to either leave, or turn them off. All I can remember about their sound (models ranging from mid - top of the line) was that they were unpleasant. It's either the upper midrange or lower tweeter that grates on me so, I believe.
Let me post a disclaimer: I dislike most speakers I've listened to over the last 10 - 15 years or so, and I'm fairly picky. The only speakers I've heard that I actually really liked listening to more than briefly were the Revel Salon Ultimas. I've also heard cheap paper cone driver 2 ways bookshelf speakers that I've liked very well, those were some old "db" brand circa ~ 1977 or so, with a paper cone/Alu dustcap tweeter.
I'm hoping to find some sort of fairly inexpensive DIY speakers to bring the pleasure of listening to music back to me after it's been pretty much gone from my life for the past 15 years or so.
The PMC FB1 speakers mentioned in this thread interested me because one pair of the many various drivers I have to experiment with are the Vifa P17-WJ woofers used in the PMC FB1, and, I'm inclined to try to find the PMC FB1 design and copy it (the cabinet/TL part anyway, prob. use a diff. tweeter) for myself out of curiosity.
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From what I've heard with B&W, they are a brand that I just cannot get into.... i'm always looking to hear new speakers, and see what the competition has to offer... I've heard their higher end with McIntosh, Naim, Bryston, among others. They offer this sort of in your face wall of sound that I find irritating, that said I find their lower bookshelf speakers a relative joy for the price. Dealers seem to feel the same way but carry it anyway - The name recognition for a moderately uneducated market brings in customers - (the market for ya' 8)).... There are a relatively limited number of speakers out there that I find really like... B&W is most definitely not one of them. I've demoed our TB2i against some model costing three times the amount of widely known brands... Outperforming in nearly every way with unanimous approval of all witnesses
As for PMC's being forgiving... I think not. Studio Monitors absolutely must present sonically, without color or enhancement, the signal which they are fed so one can absolutely be sure that the quality of music, score, cinema is at the level they deem sufficient for mass presentation.... From a tech standpoint our consumer models are derived from a studio heritage spaning 20 years, each generation building and improving on the prior. PMC speakers are known for their revealing and neutral presentation..... So says our client list.
That's just my input, some may say biased at that, but at PMC we welcome A/B... And there brands that I think offer healthy competition.
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I guess with everything it comes down to personal preference.
Prior to purchasing my PMC FB1s, I compared them with B&W704s.
The 704 were far too laidback and polite in comparison to the mild restraint showed by the FB1s. The bass was also a little too strong and a bit lumpy.
As for the loudness capability of PMC speakers, have you tried the bigger floorstanders? (FB1s, OB1s, etc?) My FB1s with 4BSSTs have no issues going loud and does so without any compression.
The TB1 (replaced with TB2+ now) and DB1s are much smaller and would obviously not have the same loudness capabilities as the bigger floorstanders.
P.s I believe the LB1s are a 15 year old design?
The LB1's are somewhere around there - agewise... For such a small speaker to give 35hz with grace is uncanny. They were recommend to be powered with up to 300w.... An extremely capable and powerful Little Box 1.
Our ATL allows for much more dynamic power & range along with lower distortion. So loudness isn't always applicable, you can still hear the low end and dynamics with PMC's in between 50-70 db which is moderately low playback level. ATL-wise, the bigger you go, we can get upwards of 130+db!
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Just to switch things up a bit here.. aa
I have owed TB2+'s and liked them but for what I percieved as a slow bass..
I have also tried FB1 's in the past...same drivers longer folded transmission so lower base...
I found the ATC's much more to my liking..hello fast bass hello superb midrange hello amazing high frequencies all natural effortless and clean as a whistle ...no distortion no compression..
Nice :D
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ATC makes pretty decent kit... easily outperforming any B&W. PMC vs. ATC is a good A/B.
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I suppose a lot of these arguments boil down to room and system setup and personal taste; the few B&W speakers I have heard have sounded quite disappointing to me. Equally, I've never found PMC bass to be 'slow'; in fact, in the smaller models, I've found it to be clean and quick. That said, I would only buy the bigger speakers in the PMC line up (OB1 and above) for a satisfying listening experience.
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I found the ATC's much more to my liking..hello fast bass hello superb midrange hello amazing high frequencies all natural effortless and clean as a whistle ...no distortion no compression..
... and goodbye money!
ATCs are much more expensive than their apparent competition from K+H and have very similar configurations (3" mid dome, for example). In two recent comparisons in Slovenia, in high end studios with the K+H 0300s and 0410s (in particular) against the ATC SCM50s (and other highly respected studio monitors) and SCM150s, the K+Hs were preferred by all in attendance to the ATCs and all the others. The studio owner then ordered a surround set of K+H ( 3 x 0410-L,C,R; 2 x 0300-LS,RS; 2 x 0810 subs) and put his ATC SCM50s up for sale.
A couple of experienced listeners have called the 0410 simply the best speaker they have ever heard. It's a 10", 3", 1" three way with a total of 700 wrms available from the three internal amplifiers. If my 0300 is anything to go by, and it's all I have to go by, I can believe what is said about the 0410 - that everything is there, there is no hype and it's all effortless and undistorted.
I just realized I have strayed far off topic, but feel compelled to let this stand for the information of those looking for this type of speaker.
Moderator, if you feel this is beyond the pale, I won't be even slightly insulted if you delete it.
The difference in price is really surprising and gratifying.
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Yeah, ATCs are beaucoup bucks. It never ceases to amaze me what these speaker companies charge.
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Has anyone compared the Nautilus 803D to speakers in the PMC range. I'm particularly interested in the results when these speakers are driven by two 7B SSTs.
Anyone heard the PMC PB1i speakers yet?
Thanks
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I've compared the OB1i's to the 802, 803S, and 803D.... Like someone said previously, the bass performance on pretty much all of the B&W's I have heard (excluding their bookshelf speakers) is lumpy and lacks any remnant of definition for anything below 380hz. I've heard them with the McIntosh MC 402 and later a Bryston 4B. While the OB1i wasn't as large as the B&W's and couldn't handle all 400 watts the Mac had to give.... It definitely retained a more honest and balanced sound, where the 800's all sounded loud and beligerent... But some people just really like loud speakers.
The PB1i >>> The OB1i. When Peter designs his speakers he really likes to get a sense of what they are capble of handling. So he was clipping a 14B.... Without a whimper from the PB1i I think red is his favorite color aa! So the PB1i against any B&W with 7B's will be black and white.
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Yes, lumpy bass is my impression of most B&Ws, and ultimately why I got rid of my 805s. The most accurate B&W bass in my experience came from the 801 and the second cheapest in the line - I forget the model number - 604?.
I bought my 805s to serve as studio monitors - after all, if they're good enough for Abbey Road..., but I couldn't get enough information about the bass by listening to them (like Grado headphones!) - it was nice and juicy and fun, but it had too much of its own character, so they had to go.
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I've compared the OB1i's to the 802, 803S, and 803D.... Like someone said previously, the bass performance on pretty much all of the B&W's I have heard (excluding their bookshelf speakers) is lumpy and lacks any remnant of definition for anything below 380hz. I've heard them with the McIntosh MC 402 and later a Bryston 4B. While the OB1i wasn't as large as the B&W's and couldn't handle all 400 watts the Mac had to give.... It definitely retained a more honest and balanced sound, where the 800's all sounded loud and beligerent... But some people just really like loud speakers.
The PB1i >>> The OB1i. When Peter designs his speakers he really likes to get a sense of what they are capble of handling. So he was clipping a 14B.... Without a whimper from the PB1i I think red is his favorite color aa! So the PB1i against any B&W with 7B's will be black and white.
Hello Ian!
What do you mean by that?
I could never bring my 4B SST C even near clipping!
It was waaay tooooo loud. Finally why should I do that?
What are these people doing when they bring such a beast to clipping levels?
Is it still audiophile terrain?
Limits of OB1 are easy to reach even with B100.
PB1 haven`t heard yet but doubling the bass drivers reminds me of B&W!
Anyway I agree with your statements about B&W.
What they are clearly better than PMC is advertising!
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I mean that Peter likes to throw as much power as he can at to know what they are capable of.... Clearly not for for pure listening enjoyment... I mean you wouldn't drive a Porsche 911 GT S Turbo at 190 mph all the time? But you would just to see what the thing was made of. 8)
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I mean that Peter likes to throw as much power as he can at to know what they are capable of.... Clearly not for for pure listening enjoyment... I mean you wouldn't drive a Porsche 911 GT S Turbo at 190 mph all the time? But you would just to see what the thing was made of. 8)
Alright, I've toyed with the idea of a new set of speakers in the last year, but bought a bunch of other stuff instead. However, if the right pair comes along I'd bite. I went down the road of Thiels in mid-2008 but didn't actually buy them for the main reason of not being able to demo them. I may have been able to fly to Montreal or Toronto to try a pair....but that's not practical. I've been to the PMC website and couldn't find the info. So, I have 2 questions:
(i) Do you have any audio mag reviews of the PB1i; and
(ii) Where can a set be demoed in Eastern Canada
Keith
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No mag reviews of the PB1i as of yet... I don't think the PB1i will an exception to the killer reviews that the rest of the i-series has received. Let me see what can find out about a demo for you... What is your specific location?
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No mag reviews of the PB1i as of yet... I don't think the PB1i will an exception to the killer reviews that the rest of the i-series has received. Let me see what can find out about a demo for you... What is your specific location?
I am in St. John's, NL. However, I ceratinly wouldn't expect dealer reps in this province. That's why I suggested Eastern Canada.....but it's way Eastern :wink:
Keith
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I emailed PMC with regards to getting MORE BASS from my OB1's about a year or so ago.
I asked them whether its possible to buy separately and install the flat Nomex woofer from the AML1 into the OB1 to increase spl as they are very similar if not the same driver size. (I asked this and suggested its because i think the midrange and treble slightly dominates the sound and is more capable of spl than the bass driver. I took the bass driver out once to have a look and discovered it to have a very weedy magnet and despite the look of it from the front, it does not have a wide voice coil like the dynaudio drivers do. Its actually quite surprising then how much bass you do get from these speakers, they just lack a smidgen of weight and punch (aka slam) on pedal drums for my taste, which I'm sure a heavy duty bass driver would sort out despite the cabinet size. Though theirs nothing wrong with them at all and they make a very nice sound and are the best and most expensive speakers I've owned to date) I'm no speaker designer and just a consumer like everybody else. its just my opinion thats all.
I also suggested about the OB1's having two bass drivers to have the desired effect as well, kinda like having a TLE1 built in. They responded by saying that if I want more BASS then I should buy the TLE1!! (was expecting that sort of response, but at least they did reply as they always have done to my questions)
I wonder though now about the name of this new model PB1i, as my initials are PB (coincidence? did i have an impact on someone influential?)
What does the name stand for mvwhiting_83?
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I emailed PMC with regards to getting MORE BASS from my OB1's about a year or so ago.
I asked them whether its possible to buy separately and install the flat Nomex woofer from the AML1 into the OB1 to increase spl as they are very similar if not the same driver size. (I asked this and suggested its because i think the midrange and treble slightly dominates the sound and is more capable of spl than the bass driver. I took the bass driver out once to have a look and discovered it to have a very weedy magnet and despite the look of it from the front, it does not have a wide voice coil like the dynaudio drivers do. Its actually quite surprising then how much bass you do get from these speakers, they just lack a smidgen of weight and punch (aka slam) on pedal drums for my taste, which I'm sure a heavy duty bass driver would sort out despite the cabinet size. Though theirs nothing wrong with them at all and they make a very nice sound and are the best and most expensive speakers I've owned to date) I'm no speaker designer and just a consumer like everybody else. its just my opinion thats all.
I also suggested about the OB1's having two bass drivers to have the desired effect as well, kinda like having a TLE1 built in. They responded by saying that if I want more BASS then I should buy the TLE1!! (was expecting that sort of response, but at least they did reply as they always have done to my questions)
I wonder though now about the name of this new model PB1i, as my initials are PB (coincidence? did i have an impact on someone influential?)
What does the name stand for mvwhiting_83?
I actually tried to install a 6.5" Piston Driver into an OB1i here at the shop one night... - Two things - First thing, the driver is not cheap, and it would almost certainly drive the speaker into a whole new price category that we were trying to stay under. Second, it didn't fit! The surrounding was maybe a 1/16" too big, and about 3/4" too deep. I was a little saddened by that fact... I personally would have loved to see a Piston Driver on there. I love the character of the pistons, I think it would have given the OB1i more muscle to flex, but it would have come at a very hefty premium.
With the names of our speakers, they can mean anything you want them to. For me the "PB" stands for Performance Box. The "GB" is the Girly Box, because it's cute, etc... With the PB1i we have achieved the bass performance that I think you are looking for. The bass drivers (4 of them in a stereo pair!) in the PB1i are capable of higher SPL and a lower frequency response. Something along the same line as adding a TLE1 to your setup. Maybe it is coincidence, but what if it isn't? :wink:
"mvwhiting_83" is this webhandle that I use for everything... Names, Birthyear, Street that I was born on...
Ian
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Hi Ian
Thanks for the response to my comments
Is their any vacancy's going at PMC? - I've got GOOD VISION + WISDOM and would be an asset to the company.
How much do the PB1i retail for here in Britain?
Regards
P.S - if its not coincidence then I would like some Royalties please :thumb:
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There is a section for vacancies on the website. There isn't anything available right now, but if you check periodically you may find something at some point. Prices In GBP? I'm not too sure, as I'm here in America so my prices are in USD.
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O.K thanks Ian.
I'm gonna shut-up now :thumb:
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Hi Ian
Thanks for the response to my comments
Is their any vacancy's going at PMC? - I've got GOOD VISION + WISDOM and would be an asset to the company.
How much do the PB1i retail for here in Britain?
Regards
P.S - if its not coincidence then I would like some Royalties please :thumb:
I understand the price in the UK will be around GBP 5500.
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Hi Ian
Thanks for the response to my comments
Is their any vacancy's going at PMC? - I've got GOOD VISION + WISDOM and would be an asset to the company.
How much do the PB1i retail for here in Britain?
Regards
P.S - if its not coincidence then I would like some Royalties please :thumb:
I understand the price in the UK will be around GBP 5500.
http://www.progressive-av.com/pricelists/PMC.pdf (http://www.progressive-av.com/pricelists/PMC.pdf)
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Thanks Ron, and Keith, for the link
Did they get the numbers wrong?
Its time for me to get out of here, like a rat up a drain pipe !!!
Before i do, one more thing - i think if i were to spend that much, i would buy the OB1i and the TLE1 combination instead of the PB1i, because you can fine tune the bass parameters better then, plus you'd be buying a Bryston designed amplifier as well aa
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and what about PMC vs ProAc?
Is there someone who had the chance to compare OB1i, PB1i or EB1i loudspeakers with a pair of D38?
Which are the most evident differencies?
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Hi Ian
Thanks for the response to my comments
Is their any vacancy's going at PMC? - I've got GOOD VISION + WISDOM and would be an asset to the company.
How much do the PB1i retail for here in Britain?
Regards
P.S - if its not coincidence then I would like some Royalties please :thumb:
I understand the price in the UK will be around GBP 5500.
http://www.progressive-av.com/pricelists/PMC.pdf (http://www.progressive-av.com/pricelists/PMC.pdf)
Wow. Here in the colonies the IB2 retails for $15,000.00 or about 9,400 pounds (sorry, I don't have the symbol on my keyboard). There must be a 25% import tariff on the PMCs which goes a long way towards explaining the bellyaching about the escalating prices of the PMC line in the US. The weaker USD against the pound and euro don't help the value equation of European speakers over here either.
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and what about PMC vs ProAc?
Is there someone who had the chance to compare OB1i, PB1i or EB1i loudspeakers with a pair of D38?
Which are the most evident differencies?
PMC vs ProAc?... I think we can compare favorably... Most people tend to find the bass response of PMC a bit quicker, deeper, and more true to the source material, which is usually what people are looking for when they start looking at our brand. For the higher end models that you listed, the power handling (the PB & EB specifically) is pretty high while maintaing a "reference" like quality. With dome midranges and the PMC/SEAS tweeter, the resolution at which you listen puts the "hi" in hifi 8).
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Why do you think Dolby chose PMC?
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How does the EB1i compare to the big Tannoys (Yorkminster, Canterbury, and Westminster?)
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I haven't had the chance to hear many of those models from Prestige series. I have heard some of their lower end and some of their studio monitors. The (dual) concentric driver tech is an interesting one though. I personally am not too keen on singular driver configurations. It's an interesting comparison between their modern tech and our classic 3 way design. The biggest glaring difference, while there are many, is our midrange. The reason we chose to utilize dome midranges for the three way design is because of the resolution and imaging yield. I think it is widely excepted that a well executed dome midrange can offer an extremely satisfying playback experience(maybe more so than cones? - anyone?). That said they can be a bit difficult to manufacture, and must be held to a very critical spec, as distorion can creep in along the way. Our crossover design with OB1i, PB1i, and EB1i is x'ed at 380 & 3.8k @ -24db/oct. So it is a pretty steep curve that allows the drive units to operate more uniformly efficient - combined with the ATL we push their performance level especially with the LF a bit higher. Any circle members who are familiar with the Piston-Nomex driver know that this driver just oozes muscle just by looking at it.
These Tannoy appear to be very sensitive, which would explain their moderate power rating (Prestige is at 97-99 db 1w @ 1m is pretty high, the EB1i is @ 89db)... The EB1i comparatively can reach a good bit deeper in the lower frequency register - down to 19hz. I would say that you could safely power the EB1i with about 500watts (14B or 7B's anyone?)... Although a good a good bit of fun was had with Mac 1.2kwatt in the red aa.
So between the two differences appear to be vast, so surely they will offer entirely different sounds... It just depends on the sound that you are after.
Also, I thought our i-series was pretty British looking, the Prestige series takes the Anglo-Monitor-aesthetic to a whole new level :thumb:
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Thanks for that. Much appreciated. 8)
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Thanks mv....83!
One reason for I want to experience PMC is the difficulty for ProAc (but I only heard studio range, never been in front a D model) to play the full-range keeping coherence. Sometimes, low freq seem to be slower than the others, extremely realistic though.
Comparing a PB1i with a D38, what can you say about this parameter?
Moreover, which is better in smoothness of hi freq, mid freq sweetness, wideness and airiness, being easy to drive and matching accuphase amplifiers sound?
kind regards
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Kiko,
I see that the D38 is a bit more sensitive than the PB1i (91.5>87), but the nominal ohm rating for the PB1i is 6 whereas the D38 is 4. So I would think that D is very capable of some serious SPL if driven with copious amounts of power, but the same goes for the PB1i; and with the ATL I believe the actual power handling would be a good bit higher than the 250 watts recommended for the D38... With the PB1i while it can handle exorbitant amounts power it can also be driven by modest levels as well. Which would lead to the question of which Accuphase you're using?
The D38 is a 3 driver two way design, which if executed (which ProAc surely has accomplished) well can offer a very nice and open sound with satisfying characteristics ascross the spectrum. However, with our 4 driver three way design, which I can only assure you is well executed with the PB1i - if you combine the unique crossover design (steep slopes), dome mid range, and solonex tweeter I believe we can more thoroughly satisfy the tonal characterstics you are looking for, i.e. sweet mids, airiness on top, with a vast dispersion that makes for a entire room being a sweet spot. All said, it is with the low mids to deep (almost subterranean) bass performance that will seperate us from ProAc... Compression which can be a fault of some two way designs is not an issue and will never haunt the dynamic capability and coherence that is required for cinema or more lively musical material.
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Just a couple of observations regarding bass definition and slam that I have noticed on my B&W 804S. This is likely to apply to the PMC speakers as well. Recently I made two changes both of which markedly improved the bass -- it bacame much tighter, was more pronounced, and became faithful to the dynamics of the music being played back. First, I doubled up on my 8TC biwire (9AWG) by adding two runs of Monster XPHP (12AWG x 2 = 9AWG). Total run is 10 feet. The change was noticeable. For those who care, the damping factor increased from mid 80s to mid 100s. Then I upgraded my 4BSST (300 wpc) to 14BSST (600 wpc). This was a bigger difference. 804S measurements show impedance dropping 5ohms with a capacitance phase angle -60 in the 40-70 Hz range. This means, you need a lot reserve power on the amp end and low dissipation along the cable to drive the speaker properly. At -60 phase angle, only 25% of the power is being transferred to the speaker. The 5ohm impedance requires 1.6X current. Togther, this means nearly an increase of 6-fold in power requirements to be able to deliver same SPL. So if you drive them at 100W, you will need 600W in 40-70 Hz region unclipped. So anyone who says the bass is inadequate on any speaker will need to have made sure that sufficient power was available to the speaker. I would highly recommend the cheaper of the above upgrades, just double up on your wire-run, and if you can, get the speakers as close to the amp to cut length as well. Hope this helps.
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Dear mv....83,
you've been actually helpin' me!
Since you, I become more and more capable to make a convinced choice, you have me converge towards a product meeting my tastes.
The matter of sweetness and smothness is clear now!
Sincerely, I was in doubt about those topics due to professional origins of your brand.
Pardon moi, just few more topics to go. :oops:
I have a E-308 integrated amplifier, would like to keep it since I usually hear music at low levels (and, in few words, I'm very satisfied about both sound and power), always lookin' for nuances, instead of being flooded by hundreds of watts, I cannot stand high volume levels.
Nevertheless, I've been lookin' for loudspeakers able to....how can I say....be activeted and sound fast and "physically", show a realistic scene, at low volume levels yet. We know that any loudspeaker system has its own lowest striking volume to sound "full" and detailed.
I'm trying to evaluate which is lower in volume between PMC PB1i & ProAc D38, this is my last doubt. I don't know, maybe it also depends on sensitivity? (once the amplifier is fixed)
Regards
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Mr. Kiko
With a transmission line speakers such as ours, you would be amazed at the level of detail and especially bass response at around 60-70db, which in its own right is just as much a treat as our high level performance. Not a terrible amount of speakers can offer their "signature sound" at low levels. So it is a joy when a monitor can do exactly what you want it to at 120db just as well if not better at 70db. You will hear no shift in tonality when you raise or lower the volume. This sonic "maintenance" at all levels of playback that I speak of is pretty much a by-product of what people in the studio need and. You can't work a 10 to 14 hour shift blasting at reference level, that would get old very quickly... With the ProAc from what I've read, and my experience from other models to get the sonic goods you're going to have to heap generous amounts of wattage and play at what I think are higher levels than your comfortable listening level.
Glad to help!
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I concur with mvwhiting about the PMC bass response at various listening levels. The IB1's continue to amaze me, and next week I will be replacing the 4BSST with a 14BSST for even better control over the entire frequency range aa
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bppt9
You will really enjoy the upgrade to the 14B; it made a world of difference in my system. Bottom end is heavier, top end is sweeter, and overall tone is exceptionally coherent. Let us know how it goes.
SF
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Thanks SF, I'll certainly let you know how it goes. I was a little nervous dropping so much coin on the 14B because the 4B seems to do a pretty good job, but there was enough consistency in reviews from folks who have upgraded that I eventually got the confidence to go for it :)
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Hi kiko,
You may want to check out Klipsch's new "Palladium Line" of speakers as they seem to answer all your concerns about efficiency and being able to play at extremely low levels without loosing any of the details and dynamics or having to purchase a larger amp. All the Palladiums can be ran efffectively with as little as 50 WATTS.
They are also priced competively with PMC's prices.
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thank you very much mv....83!
to mkaiser: don't like this brand, too aggressive sound, for tone and acoustic scene main plane too ahead.
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"to mkaiser: don't like this brand, too aggressive sound, for tone and acoustic scene main plane too ahead."
Not this line of Klipsch kiko, this is 10 years in the making.
Forget all the bad experiences you had with Klipsch in the past. They have corrected all of what you mentioned above, i spent 13 hours in 2 different occasions with the new P37 floorstander in Espresso veneer as it was the first Palladium offered for demo into Ontario, Canada and my dealer was the first to get them in. I too didn't like Klipsch such as their Reference Line and i agree with you what you say above but, this Paladium Line will change alot of peoples minds about Klipcsh now and what they can bring to the table.
The entire Palladium Line is "build to order" and not mass produced like all other Klipsch lines.
Anyway, just thought i'd help as i know nobody has heard these.... you'll be amazed. :thumb:
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I've heard side by side the Palladiums and OB1i, the characteristics that Kiko is seeking are readily found in the PMC.... That and every single model we make is built to order. It could be 20 years... But they are still Klipschs
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dear mkaiser,
what you may consider is that the choice of a speaker, a typical brand, a particular sound, is a cultural choice!
I believe in Klipsch beeing a GREAT brand, producing wonderful speakers, but even as a teen ager I had always chosen kind of english speakers, first kef, then rogers, lastly proac.......although I had organized a listening session with Klipsch's, also with JM Lab, Infinity (in the 80's!), etc.
It is 15 years now I've been definitively appreciating proac sound.
When you are able to comprehend and follow your natural tastes, you "musically grow" tending to a certain sound, it's not a choice at the beginning, it's a natural tendency, then, through the years, it becomes a baseline, thus a choice just among few brands close to your own taste.
I'm sure that on this table I'll never find out someone badly talkin' about PMC, expecially mv....83.
Nevertheless, I wanna take the risk, also thanks to the extreme kindness and skill of the italian PMC distributor, Mr. Baratto.
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The PMW speakers r the best imo , and where can i get a pair of these pmw speakers, can i get them with an 18in woofer?
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Dear mv....83,
you've been actually helpin' me!
Since you, I become more and more capable to make a convinced choice, you have me converge towards a product meeting my tastes.
The matter of sweetness and smothness is clear now!
Sincerely, I was in doubt about those topics due to professional origins of your brand.
Pardon moi, just few more topics to go. :oops:
I have a E-308 integrated amplifier, would like to keep it since I usually hear music at low levels (and, in few words, I'm very satisfied about both sound and power), always lookin' for nuances, instead of being flooded by hundreds of watts, I cannot stand high volume levels.
Nevertheless, I've been lookin' for loudspeakers able to....how can I say....be activeted and sound fast and "physically", show a realistic scene, at low volume levels yet. We know that any loudspeaker system has its own lowest striking volume to sound "full" and detailed.
I'm trying to evaluate which is lower in volume between PMC PB1i & ProAc D38, this is my last doubt. I don't know, maybe it also depends on sensitivity? (once the amplifier is fixed)
Regards
Hey Kiko, u say u dont like music at high volume levels, i dont either.(occasionally i do). But i do own a pair of Acoustic zen adagio floor standers (about a
150 watts or so into 8 ohms) and also a 4bsst2. The 4bsst/2 is twice the power of the recommended power of the speakers which is ok. I listen to my speakers carefully as to not clip em or come close. But my point is that these big power amps are not like they use to be, Bryston among others have a ton of finasse and dynamics at low volume. They also flesh out your speakers at any volume in away that not easily done by low power amps or integrateds. with lots of power u dont need to worry much about sensitivity and all that other stuff its all taken care of.
So if u have a chance go check some big power amps and try using them in a more gentle manner and I think u will be surprised.