AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: yyz67 on 21 Nov 2014, 06:18 pm
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Hi Louis and Rob,
Keeping with the recent "which amps?" theme, I have some 3Us coming--and I know you've probably answered this a hundred times in various threads--but could you summarize and rank the list of amps/integrateds/kits (tube and SS) in different price ranges that work well with Omega's in general? With maybe a word or two about strengths/weaknesses? I've seen mention of N22, RWA, Decware, etc, but it would be cool to see a complete list based on what you have heard (or have heard several Omega owners rave about). If this list is useful, maybe you could make it a sticky (cleaned up).
Penciling a few in I've seen in some posts (but Louis/Rob please fill in and rank accordingly - if it makes any sense)...
Under $500:
1. Audioengine N22
2.
3.
4.
5.
Under $1000:
1. Decware Super Zen Triode SE84CKC (2W)
2. Red Wine Signature 15/16
3.
4.
5.
Under $2500:
1. Decware Zen Triode Integrated SE34I.4 (6W)
2.
3.
4.
5.
Under $5000:
1. Decware Zen TORII (25W)
2.
3.
4.
5.
Cost-no-object:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Thanks!
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Under $500... Crown XLS 1500. This amp will compete with amps 10x it's price, not kidding. It also includes a built-in 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover, increasing it's flexibility. On some types of music and at higher volume it will be better than any low powered SET amp and it's good enough just in general that you may not feel the need for a SET amp anymore. I would consider a tube preamp or buffer a requirement though.
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solid state the Rega Brio $895........chip amp the Virtue Audio One.3 <$500 I've also used Prima Luna amps
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A few random comments.
I've run my Omegas with:
Musical Fidelity M3i
NAD 370
Various TPA 3116/3110 Class D amps
Nuforce DDA100
Wadia 151
Audioengine N22
Rega Brio R
Decware SE84CKC
Decware Mini Torii
By far, the SE84 is the best of the lot. The little Audioengine amp is almost really good. Tonally it works better than I think any solid state amp I've tried with the Omegas but it completely falls apart for me in its soundstaging and imaging capablities where it is actually probably the worst of all the amps I've played the Omegas on. Imaging is vague outside of the center image and the outer dimensions of the soundstage just collapse noticeably compared to other amps.
I actually never would have tried the Audioengine amp on the Omegas if I hadn't read Canada Robs recommendation. I've had that amp for a few years running the TV system in my bedroom and had tried it in the past with some conventional speakers where it sounded pretty mediocre at best. When I had first read Canada Robs recommendation I thought "no way" based on my experience with that amp on other speakers, but I tried it on the Omegas and again, tonally it really shined. I was very surprised. If you don't have your system set up for or aren't really into soundstaging and imaging, it's a great match for the Omegas.
The little TPA amps are fun and for the price, outstanding values. For me, the 3116 outperforms the 3110 which sounds a little dead in comparison.
The Brio R is a fun amp with the Omegas. It doesn't have the magic that the Decware amps have though, but there is a nice excitement to the sound it provides.
Besides the Brio, the best of the solid state amps overall that I've used on the Omegas was the Musical Fidelity, but when you can get an SE84 that's so much better for almost half the cost, why even recommend it right? Once you hear the RS5 with a decent tube amp, you'll think "why bother" with solid state. That said, I've toyed with the idea of getting a First Watt for a few months now. I know Nelson Pass has used them on Omegas himself and he uses single driver speakers when he voices those amps.
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I have to put in a plug for my amp - Inspire single ended pentodes designed and built by Dennis Had (founder and chief engineer from Cary Audio) in "retirement". He does a range of them from $1000 to $1700 and up to $4000 for his higher powered monoblocs. Search for radioman731 on ebay for his listings. You can contact him through there if you want something in particular. He'll even do custom color powder coat for you (see below for my Jaguar Carnival Red - not my current tubes though). They are a tube roller's dream!
There are starting to be some used ones coming up. There is one on ebay and one on audiogon, both under $1000 and that top of the line pair of monos for $2800.
Thread: http://www.audioaficionado.org/cary-audio-design/24170-dennis-had-inspire-amps.html
I have one (along with his LP-2 pre) and am running 6V6's (currently Visseaux) in it with a Sophia 274B rectifier and Voskhod "rocket" 6N23P driver. I am very happy with it.
.........Peter
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=92884)
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A few random comments.
I've run my Omegas with:
Musical Fidelity M3i
NAD 370
Various TPA 3116/3110 Class D amps
Nuforce DDA100
Wadia 151
Audioengine N22
Rega Brio R
Decware SE84CKC
Decware Mini Torii
By far, the SE84 is the best of the lot. The little Audioengine amp is almost really good. Tonally it works better than I think any solid state amp I've tried with the Omegas but it completely falls apart for me in its soundstaging and imaging capablities where it is actually probably the worst of all the amps I've played the Omegas on. Imaging is vague outside of the center image and the outer dimensions of the soundstage just collapse noticeably compared to other amps.
I actually never would have tried the Audioengine amp on the Omegas if I hadn't read Canada Robs recommendation. I've had that amp for a few years running the TV system in my bedroom and had tried it in the past with some conventional speakers where it sounded pretty mediocre at best. When I had first read Canada Robs recommendation I thought "no way" based on my experience with that amp on other speakers, but I tried it on the Omegas and again, tonally it really shined. I was very surprised. If you don't have your system set up for or aren't really into soundstaging and imaging, it's a great match for the Omegas.
The little TPA amps are fun and for the price, outstanding values. For me, the 3116 outperforms the 3110 which sounds a little dead in comparison.
The Brio R is a fun amp with the Omegas. It doesn't have the magic that the Decware amps have though, but there is a nice excitement to the sound it provides.
Besides the Brio, the best of the solid state amps overall that I've used on the Omegas was the Musical Fidelity, but when you can get an SE84 that's so much better for almost half the cost, why even recommend it right? Once you hear the RS5 with a decent tube amp, you'll think "why bother" with solid state. That said, I've toyed with the idea of getting a First Watt for a few months now. I know Nelson Pass has used them on Omegas himself and he uses single driver speakers when he voices those amps.
Once I heard the Crown amp on my Super 3 XRS I felt the same way in reverse! Good class D is here to stay, fwiw I'd upgrade speakers or get a Speed 12 sub rather than spend more on an amp after hearing what the Crown can do.
To qualify this, I have a unique tube amp comprised of only EL34 tubes run in triode mode with NO driver section, it has a 5AR4 tube rectifier followed by Clarity TC power caps and a custom electraprint choke. This amp has no coupling capacitors, James OPTs, Mills and Riken resistors, in general very high end parts. It's driven by an Aikido 6SN7 preamp with 20 dB gain, again using very high end parts. I compared my preamp/amp vs a friends Air Tight Preamp / Fi 2a3 monoblocks that combined are well over the $20k range on his Lamhorns with AER drivers (102+ dB efficiency) and my tube amps had no problem equaling his, we both thought the comparison was a draw with my amps having better tone and body and his slightly more resolving but lacking the bass and texture of my amps.
The Crown is completely as 3D and images as well as a SET amp, which has been their biggest weakness in the past. My SET has slightly better midrange but the Crown's bass and midbass are better than my SET. So, it's a tradeoff, on some music the Crown is better on some the SET, but the Crown is more flexible as it's power is limitless and I can play music at high volumes with much better clarity and dynamics vs my SET amp.
One of the biggest tradeoffs with a small SET is the Omega speakers can handle much more power, especially on transients, than a small SET can provide.
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Under $5k, but a little above $2.5k is the First Watt J2, which is sort of the equivalent of a "big" power SET amp (but in solid state form). REALLY happy with this amp with my Omega 3xrs. I was told by Mark at Reno HiFi that the J2 was made with single driver, crossover-less, speakers in mind. The match is absolutely fantastic and I feel ZERO "need" to try anything else with the Omegas.......but I'm sure I will at some point, just for fun. :thumb: The J2 is here to stay, though.
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A few random comments.
I've run my Omegas with:
Musical Fidelity M3i
NAD 370
Various TPA 3116/3110 Class D amps
Nuforce DDA100
Wadia 151
Audioengine N22
Rega Brio R
Decware SE84CKC
Decware Mini Torii
By far, the SE84 is the best of the lot. The little Audioengine amp is almost really good. Tonally it works better than I think any solid state amp I've tried with the Omegas but it completely falls apart for me in its soundstaging and imaging capabilities where it is actually probably the worst of all the amps I've played the Omegas on. Imaging is vague outside of the center image and the outer dimensions of the soundstage just collapse noticeably compared to other amps.
I actually never would have tried the Audioengine amp on the Omegas if I hadn't read Canada Robs recommendation. I've had that amp for a few years running the TV system in my bedroom and had tried it in the past with some conventional speakers where it sounded pretty mediocre at best. When I had first read Canada Robs recommendation I thought "no way" based on my experience with that amp on other speakers, but I tried it on the Omegas and again, tonally it really shined. I was very surprised. If you don't have your system set up for or aren't really into soundstaging and imaging, it's a great match for the Omegas.
The little TPA amps are fun and for the price, outstanding values. For me, the 3116 outperforms the 3110 which sounds a little dead in comparison.
The Brio R is a fun amp with the Omegas. It doesn't have the magic that the Decware amps have though, but there is a nice excitement to the sound it provides.
Besides the Brio, the best of the solid state amps overall that I've used on the Omegas was the Musical Fidelity, but when you can get an SE84 that's so much better for almost half the cost, why even recommend it right? Once you hear the RS5 with a decent tube amp, you'll think "why bother" with solid state. That said, I've toyed with the idea of getting a First Watt for a few months now. I know Nelson Pass has used them on Omegas himself and he uses single driver speakers when he voices those amps.
Hi seikosha,
It's interesting you find your N22 soundstaging to be poor. Your findings are opposite to mine. I did most of my evaluation on the Super 3i and Super 3T. The soundstage is huge - extending beyond the outside of the speakers. Focus is average, but still quite good, and the depth is somewhat shallow compared to a Zen, Artist, Elite 80, Elite 40SE. Last week I had a customer looking for speakers who is into imaging (he has a beautiful MacIntosh tube/ClearAudio front end with Maggies). He sat down in front of the N22/Super 3i system and was so impressed he carried off the speakers. He was not the first customer that was impressed by this combo and it's ability to throw a great image.
Your N22 may be out of spec or there may be other incompatibilities going on among your gear or.....Audio Engine may have improved the N22 since you got yours. With such huge disparity between experiences, something is not quite right.
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Hi Louis and Rob,
Keeping with the recent "which amps?" theme, I have some 3Us coming--and I know you've probably answered this a hundred times in various threads--but could you summarize and rank the list of amps/integrateds/kits (tube and SS) in different price ranges that work well with Omega's in general? With maybe a word or two about strengths/weaknesses? I've seen mention of N22, RWA, Decware, etc, but it would be cool to see a complete list based on what you have heard (or have heard several Omega owners rave about). If this list is useful, maybe you could make it a sticky (cleaned up).
Penciling a few in I've seen in some posts (but Louis/Rob please fill in and rank accordingly - if it makes any sense)...
I think it would help if you could zero in on a price range, because what you are asking could comprise hundreds of suitable amplifiers.
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Your N22 may be out of spec or there may be other incompatibilities going on among your gear or.....Audio Engine may have improved the N22 since you got yours. With such huge disparity between experiences, something is not quite right.
Canada Rob, you could be right. Like I said, I'd tried that amp in the past with some Harbeths and Kefs and it was very disappointing with those speakers. With the Omegas it was so much better. It could either a bad example or as you said, been improved in recent years. I've got two systems set up and even have different Omegas (RS5 based) in both at times. The soundstaging imaging deficiencies I heard was in both rooms with various equipment so the issue is probably something with the amp rather than a mismatch.
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I have to put in a plug for my amp - Inspire single ended pentodes designed and built by Dennis Had (founder and chief engineer from Cary Audio) in "retirement". He does a range of them from $1000 to $1700 and up to $4000 for his higher powered monoblocs. Search for radioman731 on ebay for his listings. You can contact him through there if you want something in particular. He'll even do custom color powder coat for you (see below for my Jaguar Carnival Red - not my current tubes though). They are a tube roller's dream!
There are starting to be some used ones coming up. There is one on ebay and one on audiogon, both under $1000 and that top of the line pair of monos for $2800.
Thread: http://www.audioaficionado.org/cary-audio-design/24170-dennis-had-inspire-amps.html
I have one (along with his LP-2 pre) and am running 6V6's (currently Visseaux) in it with a Sophia 274B rectifier and Voskhod "rocket" 6N23P driver. I am very happy with it.
.........Peter
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=92884)
Always loved the look of that amp. :thumb:
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I have an 1966 or 68 restored Eico hf-81 that is marvelous. I just hooked my 7xrs 90 minutes ago and I've played my selection of dub records that I use to evaluate stuff. Boy, did I have a nice experience. A bit different from my system at the office (the 3 desktop with a N22 Audioengine) which sounds awesome, with so much more bass, volume of air displaced. It's almost 2 in the morning and I'm debating going to bed or playing more music... it's that awesome.
so to get back to the topic of this thread, vintage gear that's properly maintained or nicely restored can be an attractive alternative. And those babies are just insanely beautiful most of the time...
I'm always enjoying reading the manuals for these old pieces of equipment. Boy are they technical! Did people understand anything back in the days and have we dumbed down??? http://vintagevacuumaudio.com/schematics-manuals/eico/eico-hf-81-owner-manual-schematics.pdf
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I'm always enjoying reading the manuals for these old pieces of equipment. Boy are they technical! Did people understand anything back in the days and have we dumbed down??? http://vintagevacuumaudio.com/schematics-manuals/eico/eico-hf-81-owner-manual-schematics.pdf
Looks like a kit manual. The manual for the Bottlehead Stereomour is about 80 pages and extremely clear. Unfortunately, unlike the HF-81 manual, the Bottlehead one is on a disc, so I either have to build it in front of a computer, or print 80 pages. Don't like that.
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I am running a Dayens Ampino (Integrated) with my Outlaw 1.5 Way Towers. The sound is sublime.
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Hi all Omega fans.
I own a Decware SE84C+ SET 2wpc
and I am very happy with it driving my Omega 7F Open Baffle Dipole.
I've tired my Nightshade Audio amplifier 6L6 Pentode 10wpc,
my Decware sound's better.
I've tried my Sony Mini solid state receiver 15 wpc,
my Decware sound's better.
With my Decware the EL84/6922 that sound's better is the Electro Harmonix,
better than all the NOS I've tried.
I would be curious to know if the SE34I.4 would be better than my SE84C+ except for the increase in power.
Guy 13
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I use a Decware Torii MKIV with my outlaw omegas and I think the combo its great. More power than I possibly need with these speakers. For me the tone and texture and pretty much everything else is spot on.
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Under $500... Crown XLS 1500. This amp will compete with amps 10x it's price, not kidding. It also includes a built-in 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover, increasing it's flexibility. On some types of music and at higher volume it will be better than any low powered SET amp and it's good enough just in general that you may not feel the need for a SET amp anymore. I would consider a tube preamp or buffer a requirement though.
+1
These Crown amps are great with any high-end speaker.
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In the Under $1000 category, I'd like to nominate the amp that I use with my Super 3S speakers: a Dared 2A3C. At 8 wpc, it delivers a beautiful sound with the Omegas -- lots of detail, deep and wide soundstage, a truly beautiful sound. Obviously, the Omegas are a big part of the equation (I don't have multiple speakers to test with the Dared) -- but I truly love this combination. The Dared can be had on eBay for about $840 plus shipping.
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I hope this is all right to ask in this thread:
Can anyone tell me how crazy I would be to pair an RS5-based Omega with a little T-amp? I read that John Darko seemed to have reasonable luck with Hoyt-Bedfords... I've ordered the 3XRS and I plan to power them with a Topping TP20 (a TA2020 based unit with some "audiophile" components which is very favourably reviewed across the web). I've got a very good DAC and a solid state preamp (with a remote!) that I plan to use as well.
If none of you folks has any opinions I'll still post in a few weeks here or in a separate thread with my listening impressions--as valid as they will be coming from someone who hasn't heard any other Omega speakers or tried any other amps.
Thanks for furthering our collective knowledge, everyone.
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the Crown XLS 1500 is 300 wpc ? Isn't that a bit of overkill with Omegas ? Would a Decware pre amp work with this amp assuming i am looking at the right one.
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the Crown XLS 1500 is 300 wpc ? Isn't that a bit of overkill with Omegas ? Would a Decware pre amp work with this amp assuming i am looking at the right one.
Yes, yes and yes. :)
The Crown has gain controls so it's not a problem to use it with a active preamp, in fact it is probably best to do so. The amount of power on tap is overkill but the difference vs a ~5 wpc SET amp when playing at higher volumes makes the SET amp's limitations very obvious. The speakers (I have Super 3 XRS) can take way more power than what my EL34 SET is capable of.
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Hi Dave,
The Crown sounds intriguing. Have you compared it with your EL34 using just the rs5 with no sub or are your comparisons using the amp along with a sub?
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I mostly leave the sub on all the time but did compare briefly with it off. The Crown can make the RS5 do things in the midbass department that a SET amp can only dream of. With my SET the RS5 is pretty amazing but with the Crown the disparity between size and output is about double. It controls the cone motion better so IMD (intermodulation distortion) doesn't happen until higher volumes, another plus. Also, the transients are less compressed, which points out where the SET is clipping. Honestly, where the Crown really shines is at higher volumes, a small SET just can't come close. I tried my SET on a friend's Lamhorns, which have drivers 102.5 dB before horn loading, and it did not have the same limitations as it does on my Super 3 XRS, but there is likely a 9-12 dB gap in sensitivity between the two.
The other thing is if you mainly listen to vocal, acoustic, folk, etc. at moderate volumes a SET will be a better choice, it has a better midrange and at lower volumes the differences in power don't matter as much so the SET has an advantage. It would be nice to be able to just flip a switch between the two depending on what you're listening to.
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To the "cost no object" category I'd nominate three amplifiers:
1. Manley Labs Neo-Classic 300B monoblocks (switchable PSE/PP and variable NFB with switchable tap impedance)
2. Audion 845 Black Shadow monoblocks
3. Bakoon 12-R
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Eddy Vaughn Carina.
Sadly no longer in production, but sometimes available used. I was communicating with Eddy about bringing them in when not long after that he informed me he was shutting down production. Audio's loss IMO.
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Here's another one that looks like it has serious Omega potential. Sony UDA1 20w/ch class A/B with onboard DAC. $800 in the US, $700 in Canada.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109248)
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The new Sony gear is really good, good find!
I have the Sony HAP-Z1ES music server and it made a MASSSIVE improvement over my Schiit Bifrost... got my system much closer to perfection! Sony has a matching amp that sounds great, but it's $2k for the server and $2k for the amp, so a bit pricier.
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I'll confirm the Crown XLS-1500 I purchased used to drive a subwoofer. I made the mistake of using it to drive Omega Super 3S while sorting out subwoofer issues. Completely stock....its sound is mindboggling for the price (I paid $200 for a 3 month old used unit. New prices online average about $299). Using the gain controls to control my tube output CDP, the Crown completely grips the Omegas, and sounds better than some tube amps I've owned/listened to in the past (as a combination). Smooth, no harshness, great sense of ease, detailed, powerful bass, great tone...and images better than my modified Jolida 1701BRC Hybrid Integrated Amp and is more holographic. Over the next few weeks I'll have my standard mods done that I now swear by for removing veils without changing tone: Furutech RCA inputs and IEC inlet, and Pomona 3770 Copper binding posts (less than $150.00 in parts).
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I have a Crown XLS1500 I purchased used to drive a subwoofer. I made the mistake of using it to drive Omega Super 3S while sorting out subwoofer issues. Completely stock....its sound is mindboggling for the price (I paid $200 for a 3 month old used unit. New prices online average about $299). Using the gain controls to control my tube output CDP, the Crown completely grips the Omegas, and sounds better than some tube amps I've owned/listened to in the past (as a combination). Smooth, no harshness, great sense of ease, detailed, powerful bass, great tone...and images better than my modified Jolida 1701BRC Hybrid Integrated Amp and is more holographic. Over the next few weeks I'll have my standard mods done that I now swear by for removing veils without changing tone: Furutech RCA inputs and IEC inlet, and Pomona 3770 Copper binding posts (less than $150.00 in parts).
Agreed! I can get you a 20% break on the Furutech stuff, I'd go 901(R) and FI-09(R) for the RCAs and IEC, I also use the Pomona posts... they are good for the money but not the best grip on spades. The Crown has all PCB mount connectors so it won't be as easy as it is with most components. Be careful to keep the wires you will need to add as short as possible. Those steel AC push connectors could be replaced too.
The "grip" on the drivers is something else in the bass frequencies, it makes those RS5s do things I never thought possible!
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I hope this is all right to ask in this thread:
Can anyone tell me how crazy I would be to pair an RS5-based Omega with a little T-amp? I read that John Darko seemed to have reasonable luck with Hoyt-Bedfords... I've ordered the 3XRS and I plan to power them with a Topping TP20 (a TA2020 based unit with some "audiophile" components which is very favourably reviewed across the web). I've got a very good DAC and a solid state preamp (with a remote!) that I plan to use as well.
If none of you folks has any opinions I'll still post in a few weeks here or in a separate thread with my listening impressions--as valid as they will be coming from someone who hasn't heard any other Omega speakers or tried any other amps.
Thanks for furthering our collective knowledge, everyone.
Hello McNubbins,
Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. Sorry for not responding to your post - I somehow missed it. Your Topping TP20 will work well with the Super 3XRS.
I have had great success running the 22w/ch Audio Engine N22 with the Super 3i and Super 3T. Also, the now discontinued 8w/ch Firestone Big Joe V1.3 ran the Hoyt-Bedford Type 1 with ease. Both are class A/B chip amps.
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Bottlehead SET amps:
Paramount 300B/2A3 and BeePre preamp, Stereomour 2A3/45, Seductor EL84 and Smash preamp (new), and Single Ended Experimentors kit 6DN7. If you are into building, these amplifiers will put you into a higher level of gear than you would ever get at these price points for built gear. If you are not into building, there is a building service for these amps.
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Dave,
On my two Jolida components I've used the FT903R RCA inputs, and FI-03 IEC inlets (since they both have integrated fuse holders and I wanted simplicity). The connectors were replaced on the CDP first, about two months apart to verify which one affected the sound. The integrated amp was next, and I replaced the RCA inputs and IEC at the same time (since I knew how they changed the sound), then replaced the binding posts with the Pomona's about three months after that. If I were an audio guru I'd mandate replacement of stock connectors as the first change on any lower-priced (relatively) component.
Furutech just released the FI-06 copper (not brass) IEC inlet, which I am ordering in addition to the set Pomona binding posts. About $75 combined (excluding shipping) I'll hold off on the RCA's for now, but will probably go with 903s again for cost.
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the crown class-d amps series are ideal for driving the omegas fully... :green:
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Hi all
I'm thinking about trying Transcendense SOB and Masterpiece pre-amp combo. Less than 2000 USD, OTL a nice (?) Headphone amp buildt into the pre:amp and also a nice project over the winter. Anyone here familiar with those?
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Hi all
I'm thinking about trying Transcendense SOB and Masterpiece pre-amp combo. Less than 2000 USD, OTL a nice (?) Headphone amp buildt into the pre:amp and also a nice project over the winter. Anyone here familiar with those?
Looks like Transcendent Sound has some very nice (and affordable) offerings. What makes me nervous is the latest website copyright date I found was 2011. It would be a good idea to contact them and do some research about them on the web before ordering.
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Another great little amp is the Rega Brio-R (http://www.rega.co.uk/brio-r.html) (class A/B) and very musical for solid state design. Also very inexpensive for what you get including a really good phono stage, 50 watts into 8 ohms, 5 inputs and handmade in the UK ... all for under $1000 new and about $600 used.
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I am using The Red Wine Audio Signature 15 integrated amp,which is AC and full DC battery power 30 wpc into 4 ohms is excellent with my omega Outlaw 1.5 open baffle speakers. When I can afford it Vinnies new
Dc Capacitor banks in his new flagship is very special technologies in the $3500'range it is something I will need to plan for. At the moment though I could upgrade to the latest 16 model for under a $1k .
The 15 sounds excellent though and just one Vacuum tube in pure class A for the preamp does the trick
A 1958 Amperex 6922 D getter from Holland.
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Looks like Transcendent Sound has some very nice (and affordable) offerings. What makes me nervous is the latest website copyright date I found was 2011. It would be a good idea to contact them and do some research about them on the web before ordering.
Bruce with Transcendent has put out new products every year for the last several.
I wouldn't worry about buying from him.
Great support too.
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Thanks all for the great ideas, especially reasonably affordable ones!
I'm currently using a NAD 390DD (direct digital DAC/amp) and a NAD T775 AVR, but I haven't heard anyone here using NAD gear.
I have a Super 3U ordered, which will hopefully come before Santa. But I might get a Crown anyway as I need a power amp for my guitar rig, and I can see how it does with my current speakers .... and then the Omegas.
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Has any directly compared Dennis Had's SETs to the Decware SETs/SEPs?
Does Dennis have an integrated like Rachael?
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Has any directly compared Dennis Had's SETs to the Decware SETs/SEPs?
Does Dennis have an integrated like Rachael?
I wish I could say yes. I would love to try the Rachael and compare with my Inspire, but haven't.
So far, Dennis has not endorsed integrated design at all. I think he has recently made headphone amps with volume control, but no integrated amp AFAIK.
And is the Rachael truly integrated or is it a passive attenuator on a power amp? If the latter (which is what it looks like to me), you can add an outboard attenuator to any power amp for the same effect, as long as overall gain is sufficient. Shiit sells one for $49.
..........Peter
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Decware has a Black Friday sale on right now. Ends at midnight.
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Not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but what are your recommendations for someone who currently runs a Nuforce DDA-100 with Omega Super 5s (with RS5 drivers)?
The comment was made on here that the Nuforce is too crisp and cold/detailed to work best with Omegas. I've been listening more lately, and I tend to agree with this. Something richer, maybe a little warmer would be a better fit I think.
However, this is for a living room/second system, and there are some things I love about the Nuforce:
- Only source for this system is a laptop, so the built in DAC is great (one less box to plug in)
- Tiny and unobtrusive
- Doesn't require any warm up time to sound good, and runs in super low power standby mode usually
- Runs totally cool, so no worries with kids/pets
What are your recommendations for options that are a better fit with the Omegas? Tube amps sound great, but take more space and get hot, and require an external DAC (typically). A Brio-R might be good, but I hate that it has no standby mode; according to sources it needs some warm up time. It also has no DAC. Something like a Rogue Sphinx might be good, but it's very large physically, and pretty pricey for this system (I'm hoping to stay around $500 or so).
Maybe I'm tackling this the wrong way. Are there any iTunes plugins or JRiver settings or anything that do a good job of EQ to warm up a system without crushing quality? Or maybe a tube buffer? But it would have to be a tube buffer that accepts optical or USB...which I'm not sure exist.
Thanks!
Eric
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Not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but what are your recommendations for someone who currently runs a Nuforce DDA-100 with Omega Super 5s (with RS5 drivers)?
The comment was made on here that the Nuforce is too crisp and cold/detailed to work best with Omegas. I've been listening more lately, and I tend to agree with this. Something richer, maybe a little warmer would be a better fit I think.
However, this is for a living room/second system, and there are some things I love about the Nuforce:
- Only source for this system is a laptop, so the built in DAC is great (one less box to plug in)
- Tiny and unobtrusive
- Doesn't require any warm up time to sound good, and runs in super low power standby mode usually
- Runs totally cool, so no worries with kids/pets
What are your recommendations for options that are a better fit with the Omegas? Tube amps sound great, but take more space and get hot, and require an external DAC (typically). A Brio-R might be good, but I hate that it has no standby mode; according to sources it needs some warm up time. It also has no DAC. Something like a Rogue Sphinx might be good, but it's very large physically, and pretty pricey for this system (I'm hoping to stay around $500 or so).
Maybe I'm tackling this the wrong way. Are there any iTunes plugins or JRiver settings or anything that do a good job of EQ to warm up a system without crushing quality? Or maybe a tube buffer? But it would have to be a tube buffer that accepts optical or USB...which I'm not sure exist.
Thanks!
Eric
The Sony UDA1 is class A/B. The PS Audio Sprout looks like a nice option, and I was told it leans to the warmer side as far as sound goes.
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For the financially strapped and DIY inclined, one of the TPA3116 amps would be hard to beat.
Presently I'm burning in one of these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amplifier-board-TPA3116-Class-D-2x50W-The-only-with-speaker-protection-/161333836762?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item25903efbda
It already sounds good despite only having ~20 hours of play time. I plan to do some easy mods after 200 hours. I'm running it with an Astron power supply. My speakers are Omega Hemp Bipoles.
Here's the 62 page AC thread.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=122011.0
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I did a quick easy swap of the original binding posts on my Crown XLS-1500 with Pomona Electric 3770s, avoiding the circuit board issues associated with replacing the IEC power inlet and RCA inputs (the binding posts simply bolted onto a bent metal tab that is soldered onto the board. After well over 150 hours of play time at varying intervals from 4 to 24 hours, the verdict to my ears is the original binding posts are vastly superior. The highs and mids of the Pomonas were very detailed, to the point of sounding harsh and steely, 2 dimensional, and constricted. The Crown's amazing bass, warmth, and sound stage depth dramatically disappeared. When I reinserted the original posts the sound immediately reverted back to what I first heard!! I again heard all details without etch, an effortless deep sound stage, warmth (without cloudiness), taut and rolling bass. My local tube audio builder/specialist said the original posts are high current nickle-plated Cliffs from the UK (or possibly knock-offs due to their off-red colored knob). Don't know what the base metal is, but the unit is clearly voiced (purposefully or accidentally) for the Crown over the reduced-metal, gold-plated Tellurium copper Pomonas I've successfully used on other amps. Another lesson for me on the sum of parts equation. I assumed the original binding posts (which appear 3X thicker and heavier than the Pomonas) were some zinc-coated scrap metal part thrown in for cost savings, and just had to be negatively degrading the sound. That might be so (aside from the nickle-plating), but they sound good! Fortunately, this lesson only cost me $40.
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That's strange... I have no idea how using a binding post with far better metallurgy for audio would cause a problem. Myself and Tom have noted a nice improvement using the Pomona posts with the Crown amps. I replaced a few other brass binding posts with Pomona in the past and noted similar improvements.
Nickle plating is not good for sound quality in any connector I have ever tried, it always adds a harsh edge.
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On an earlier post I recommended some Bottlehead amps and preamps. I really like the look of the new Bottlehead Seductor EL84, but putting it with a preamp makes for more work and cost. The little Resonessence Labs Herus+ (and no doubt the basic Herus) works well as a DAC/preamp into the back of my SuperZen, so I'm thinking it may do the same for the Seductor. The Concero HP with it's physical volume control might also work. If I get a Seductor, I want to try it with these DACs. It could be a killer combo. Look Ma, no preamp!
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Dave,
My thoughts exactly! But it is what I hear! I've used Pomonas to replace binding posts on two integrated amps, with great all around improvements in both cases. I think the difference may be in those two cases the Pomonas were directly wired to the board (with VH Audio's OCC Copper Hookup Wire). In the case of the Crown, I just simply bolted them in per originals. No other non-amp factors changed between all three units. I may revisit the issue later...but don't have a great need right now! All is a testament to the revealing nature of the RS5
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Dave,
My thoughts exactly! But it is what I hear! I've used Pomonas to replace binding posts on two integrated amps, with great all around improvements in both cases. I think the difference may be in those two cases the Pomonas were directly wired to the board (with VH Audio's OCC Copper Hookup Wire). In the case of the Crown, I just simply bolted them in per originals. No other non-amp factors changed between all three units. I may revisit the issue later...but don't have a great need right now! All is a testament to the revealing nature of the RS5
No problem at all! We all have different systems, ears, etc... there's really no right or wrong in many cases, you just have to try for yourself. :green:
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Just to add my two cents worth. The Crown xls series, pick one, are really good. I tried mine full range and I really like it. Two more quick comments. If you can solder and follow directions, consider transcendent sound. They are simply more open and detailed than transformer coupled tube amps. You can't go wrong with the best OTL amps made. Decware makes a nice basic amp. For full range single drivers, make sure you use the standard transformers. The high impedance ones don't work as well. Avoid the EL34 models.
Steve
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Just to add my two cents worth. The Crown xls series, pick one, are really good. I tried mine full range and I really like it. Two more quick comments. If you can solder and follow directions, consider transcendent sound. They are simply more open and detailed than transformer coupled tube amps. You can't go wrong with the best OTL amps made. Decware makes a nice basic amp. For full range single drivers, make sure you use the standard transformers. The high impedance ones don't work as well. Avoid the EL34 models.
Steve
Hi steve f,
Have you tried the Decware amps you speak of with Omegas? Have you compared them to the Transcendent amp. How does Transcendent stack up against Atma-Sphere OTL amps? Your personal experience would be very interesting to know, as I have never heard an OTL amp.
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Ouuu . . nice discussion, gents. You have me salivating.
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Hi Canada Rob,
I've owned a Decware SE84C with the EX transformers. I still have a Transcendent Sound SE-OTL. I have used both with Horn Shoppe & Omega speakers. Both amps operate Class A and at two WPC,the Decware is a half watt more powerful. (Neither amp is current production. These days the Transcendent is more powerful.) My Decware experience is mixed. The SE84 series of amp is a very good one. I had listened to the base Decware and decided to purchase one. Since I was using single driver 8 Ohm speakers, I figured that getting the EX output transformers would make things even better. Wrong. The life was sucked out of the music. It took years to find out why. Roger Modjeski recommended light loading for his amps. Run a 8 Ohm speaker off the 4 Ohm taps. It sounds better. In frustration, I looked for a different amp. I probably could have had the standard transformers installed, but that's 20/20 hindsight. I bought the Transcendent amp instead. I go back a long way with OTL amps, having listened to Futterman and NYAL. A good OTL amp has a level of clarity transformer amps can't match. The rap on OTLs is supposed unreliability. Transcendent products are reliable. You only have to watch that your speakers are not going to dip below four ohms. A good OTL has better bass and treble extension compared to transformer coupled amps. I don't care for Atmasphere amps. I find the TS superior. I go for a low distortion and very neutral presentation. If you are a tube roller and like to voice your equipment, you will have more flexibility with tranny amps. Sorry for rambling a bit.
Steve
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Thank you Steve for sharing this. It's a good read and not rambling at all.
What you say about listening to 8 ohm speakers on 4 ohm taps has been born out twice now in my personal experience. All the Zen amps I have had, have had the 4 ohm option and I've run various Omegas with them which are all 8 ohm. The sound is/was terrific. The other is an amp I sent to Louis that has a 4, 8, & 16 ohm switch that accesses the different taps on the output transformers. According to Louis the 4 ohm setting sounds the best. I have been to the Transcendent website and his gear looks very interesting, and your comments make it even more so.
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I just won an ebay auction for a used Crown XLS1500. It is for my supertweeter project, but I will be very curious how it will sound powering my Super 7 XRS Alnicos given everyone's reports here. I really like that it has integrated level controls so I can balance the level of the super tweeters with the Omegas. The crossover feature is amazing as well, but I won't use that feature as its high pass only goes up to 3K. The caps I'm using make for a high pass of something like 21K!
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Here's another possible amplifier candidate. Louis just related to me that a customer he spoke to has a Schiit Ragnarok and just loves it.
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I've finally come back to add a little personal experience to my question about pairing a Topping TP20 with the Super 3XRS. It's a nice little single input TA2020-based T-amp with maybe 6 watts of clean power with the included 14V power brick. I know there are newer chip amps guys are raving about but this one was reasonably priced at just over a hundred dollars, pre-built, and the included universal switching power supply means I can use it anywhere by merely replacing a power cable.
The rest of my system is a computer feeding an Audio-gd NFB-1 DAC through USB, to an Audio-gd NFB-6 preamp/headphone amp. With the preamp behind the TP20, there's a little more warmth and fullness/weight while retaining the detail. Currently, it's there because I already had it for my headphones and it gives me a remote control. I know spending four times the value of the little T-amp on a preamp like this doesn't really make sense. Later I intend to use the preamp in combination with a higher end power amplifier.
I'm using some decent Belkin PureAV PCOCC speaker cables and interconnects, which though clear and immediate improvements over some other cheap OFC cables, probably aren't on the same level as what many of you guys are using.
My experience in audiophilia began with headphones (cuz I was single and it was cheaper than a good set of speakers). This is my first really nice set of speakers. They've got over 100 but probably fewer than 200 hours on them.
This will not be the last amplifier I buy for my 3XRSes. This amp is the weakest component in my setup and is an interim solution that is letting me get some good sound. With that in mind:
First, the build quality of the unit is just okay. I'll leave it at that.
The detail retrieval is extremely good for the price. The differences between different audio files (YouTube vs 16/44 vs 24/192 vs DSD), audio players, and audio software output modes is readily apparent. Having experienced multiple systems of family members with more of a home theatre bent, I know there is more bass out there to be had in the wide world of audio systems. However, for a subwoofer-less setup with 6 watts powering a pair of 4.5" drivers, I feel the bass is very good. The system goes plenty loud enough for my apartment living situation (90dB peaks are no problem and, to be honest, more than 85dB or so is already pushing it beyond my comfort zone), and even this little amp is enough to make the 3XRS soundstage huge-ly.
It might be the speakers more than the amp, but for now, my girlfriend is getting sick of me saying how good things sound instead of how much I want to upgrade or change something.
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Im totally psyched because I ordered the Zen TORII MK4 amp from Decware and I just got an email saying they were testing it, the last stage before shipping. So given that the French customs are slow, I should have the amp in about 2 weeks. I'll use it to replace the Eico amp I currently have with my Omega 7XRS speakers, and hopefully I should hear a jump in sound quality....
I will of course keep you gentlemen posted
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Has anyone tried a vintage Mcintosh MC-225, 240, or even a pair of MC-30s? Especially with a pair of the Alnicos.
If so, I'd be curious how the MC-Omega combo compares with Omegas powered by more modern tube amps, like Decwares.
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Has anyone tried a vintage Mcintosh MC-225, 240, or even a pair of MC-30s? Especially with a pair of the Alnicos.
If so, I'd be curious how the MC-Omega combo compares with Omegas powered by more modern tube amps, like Decwares.
Ozoid,
I have a customer who has an MC275 Version V that he has run with his Super 3i and loves the sound. He's now ordered some Super 3XRS.
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thanks, Rob. It's an intriguing combination, one recommended to me by a Positive Feedback writer, Jeff Day, who liked Omegas enough to buy the ones he reviewed. Thanks to ZLS I got a real taste of those alnicos. For now I'm limited to a desktop system that's too close to an Omega-Dec SET to replace, but it's fun to imagine how to rebuild & restore my full system around a set of alnicos.
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Under $500... Crown XLS 1500. This amp will compete with amps 10x it's price, not kidding. It also includes a built-in 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover, increasing it's flexibility. On some types of music and at higher volume it will be better than any low powered SET amp and it's good enough just in general that you may not feel the need for a SET amp anymore. I would consider a tube preamp or buffer a requirement though.
I am getting some 3XRS's very soon and really want them to sing. I currently own a really nice Pioneer Elite SX-A9 integrated amp that powers some Tekton M-Lores but was wondering if I should use the Pioneer as a pre-amp for the Crown XLS-1500? Here is a link to the Pioneer.
http://stereos.about.com/od/reviewsandrecommendations/fr/PioneerSXA9.htm
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I am using a Pass Labs SIT2 with my Super6 Alnicos and it is a wonderful match.
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I am getting some 3XRS's very soon and really want them to sing. I currently own a really nice Pioneer Elite SX-A9 integrated amp that powers some Tekton M-Lores but was wondering if I should use the Pioneer as a pre-amp for the Crown XLS-1500? Here is a link to the Pioneer.
http://stereos.about.com/od/reviewsandrecommendations/fr/PioneerSXA9.htm
HiFiJeff,
Just curious, what was it about the Tekton's that you found lacking that pushed you to switch to Omegas?
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I am using a Pass Labs SIT2 with my Super6 Alnicos and it is a wonderful match.
That's an amp I've been wanting to hear for a good while. Reno had a demo for $3k, but that was just outside of my amp budget last time around. :duh:
(If you define 'just outside' as 'about double')
I'm sure you're getting some terrific sound with that and the Alnicos.
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To All I bought the Coincident Dynamo SET amp with you can run direct,using Alps best 100k volume pot. or with a seperate preamp once you shed the Chinese tubes and put good aftermarket tubes you are golden.I t is a Very good sounding amp and will go toe to toe with ease with anything up to $3k for I have .for the record I want to clear up some Misinformation that was not totally accurate. This model the only thing made in Asia was the Stainless case work very well done in Hong KOng .That Is It !! The transformers being the most important
part of a Vacuum tube amp is the Transformers .If you go to Coincident Speakers web pages you can find a lot of information. The transformers
are made to their spec and the Best 6-9s Copper Made in Japan all other parts around the world mainly Japan and North America .for $1,295 it is the best amplifier in Audio
IMO. please find me Anywhere, A Japanese wound 6-9s Copper meaning it is what is called here 0-Crystal Copper transformers at this price . roughly 8 watts SET
that plays with tons of musicality and way bigger then it should,also the Star grounding which is a Excellent way to ground a component .The only weak link is the stock tubes . I changed the rectifier to a direct replacement, 5ar4 Mullard indirect heater No flash slow on.plus it has a soft start . you read about stock tubes which BTW many rectifiers are direct heater type and a flash on start up. EL 34 Mullards very good modern tubes , and the 6SL7 driver tubes I have NOS Real Tungsols
for $250 in tubes at least 10% better across the board. I hope that helps Check it out .p.s get a Good power cord and a 3A slow blow 20mm Hifi tuning Supreme fuse .
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122647)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122648)
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HiFiJeff,
Just curious, what was it about the Tekton's that you found lacking that pushed you to switch to Omegas?
The color. As crazy as that sounds, I was able to pick up some M-Lores for a really good price, but they were in satin red. I just really wanted to hear for myself what all the hype was about. If they were in a wood veneer or high gloss finish, I would just keep them and be happy. They are a wonderful sounding speaker. I was initially just going to get some Lore References in the BMW Cyber Grey mirror finish but started doing more research on single driver HE speakers and Omega really got me very intrigued. After some conversations with Louis, I was hooked. I am actually getting a custom version of the 3XRS. Really excited about them. From what I have been reading, they are totally different from anything I have probably ever heard.
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Hifi Jeff, I see mention of a speaker but nothing on recommended Amplifiers.
This thread was created for what amplifiers work well with Omega speakers to help others.
Jeff What amplifier would you recommend as your favorite ?
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I currently use two ingegrateds with my Super Alnico monitors:
Luxman SQ-N100- Very nice match.
VAC Sigma 160i- In a whole different league. I've never heard such an amazing synergistic combination before with any speakers or amps.
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Hifi Jeff, I see mention of a speaker but nothing on recommended Amplifiers.
This thread was created for what amplifiers work well with Omega speakers to help others.
Jeff What amplifier would you recommend as your favorite ?
He mentioned his amp in a few posts above. It was a Pioneer.
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I am getting some 3XRS's very soon and really want them to sing. I currently own a really nice Pioneer Elite SX-A9 integrated amp that powers some Tekton M-Lores but was wondering if I should use the Pioneer as a pre-amp for the Crown XLS-1500? Here is a link to the Pioneer.
http://stereos.about.com/od/reviewsandrecommendations/fr/PioneerSXA9.htm
Jeff,
I went from a Pioneer Elite VSX-33TX (AV receiver) running in stereo only to a pair of Musical Fidelity M1PWR amps. The Pioneer sounded great to me, but when I replaced it with these amps running as monoblocks, I was blown away. It sounded like I also bought better speakers. I added Super 3is later on and my sound is even better, so I would love to hear what the 3XRS sound like on these. This is a class D amp and two of them run very cool, which is nice in Texas. I have run one amp in stereo and can definitely tell the difference when going back to monoblock configuration---better soundstage and fuller sound. The best way to describe it is to tell you to picture a very good pencil drawing with no shading. Add some shading and the same picture, while unchanged for the most part, looks much more realistic.
A pair of these amps can be had for under $1k in the US. They skyrocket in price overseas and they're from an English company. Here's a link if you're interested: http://www.musicdirect.com/search.aspx?searchterm=m1 pwr
I'm am very happy with the sound and my Omegas are still breaking in.
Jim
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At around $400 CAD the Temple Audio Bantam Gold is showing itself to be a great amp with my Super 7 Monitors and Super 3i Monitors. My 3i are on the desktop with the Temple and my Audio Sector DAC. I don't recall a better sounding desktop system.
I have the Temple teamed up with my Herus+ and Super 7s in a room system and the dynamics and speed are amazing. With the Temple on the battery powered option and a Herus DAC being fed by a laptop or i device, one can have a really nice "off the grid" system.
What I love about the sound of the Temple hooked up to my Omegas is the lovely, airy, non grainy top end, and solid foundation on the bottom end (I run no subs), but where this amp really shines is in the midrange, which is the most important area of good sound. In less words, the tonal quality of this amp is amazing.
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I want to add to my amp recommendations.
First, I previously recommended the Crown XLS series. I still do. They can drive your Omega speakers perfectly without clipping. My choice is the XLS1500 though. The 2000 on up are unnecessary overkill as the 1500 itself will easily provide more power than an Omega speaker can use. Do not by the 1000 amp. It uses a different front end circuit, I'm told, that isn't quite as good as the circuit the 1500 and up uses.
I recently listened to a pair of Quicksilver mini monos and a pair of their V4 amps. Both were excellent with Omega, Horn Shoppe, and a large panel speaker with a Fostex 8" driver. I was impressed with build quality of both amp series. I'm going to offend the Decware users, but IMO the sound, fit, and finish of the Quicksilver amps are better. If you don't need much power the Se84 series by Decware are good, and their best offerings. I haven't listened to Decware's flagship amp.
The best sounding tube amps I've used are Transcendent Sound, but they are kits. You have to build them. The megabuck amps that the audio publications tout are not in their league. I tried a CJ and ARC amps, and neither impressed me as much.
Lastly, if you can find parts for them, consider the Amp Camp amps designed by Nelson Pass. About 5 Watts and excellent sound. Another cheap amp, and you have to build them.
All of these amps will make your Omegas sing.
Steve
Edit: I agree with Audiophile58. The Coincident amps are very good. Didn't get to hear them with Omegas, but I was impressed with them on a nice 3 way design. Definitely worth checking out. Do not use boutique fuses though, a safety issue.
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I currently use two ingegrateds with my Super Alnico monitors:
Luxman SQ-N100- Very nice match.
VAC Sigma 160i- In a whole different league. I've never heard such an amazing synergistic combination before with any speakers or amps.
A few posts up, I did mention that I am currently using the Pioneer Elite AX-A9 Air Studios 2 channel integrated amp right now which I am really enjoying but also mentioned using it as a pre-amp and maybe trying the Crown XLS-1500 for amplification. I have heard a lot of good things about Crown amps.
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Thanks Steve,
The Transcendent Sound amps look very interesting. On the subject of OTL, David Berning is at it again. He has a nice little OTL flea power amp (MICROZOTL) that would be a shoe-in with some Super 3i or Super 3 Desktop on the desktop or in a small room. Not cheap, but still a very reasonable price. He also has a bigger amp in the works.
See link: http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/#about (http://www.lineartubeaudio.com/#about)
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A few posts up, I did mention that I am currently using the Pioneer Elite SX-A9 Air Studios 2 channel integrated amp right now which I am really enjoying but also mentioned using it as a pre-amp and maybe trying the Crown XLS-1500 for amplification. I have heard a lot of good things about Crown amps.
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Canada Rob,
Roger Modjeski introduced a small OTL several months ago. I haven't heard one yet. Given Rogers reputation, I'm sure it's a great amp.
Steve
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Canada Rob,
Roger Modjeski introduced a small OTL several months ago. I haven't heard one yet. Given Rogers reputation, I'm sure it's a great amp.
Steve
I think most anything from Roger will pique the attention of many here. Can you provide more info or a link to that "new" (several months ago) amp?
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Hi!
This is what Alan Shaw designer and owner of Harbeth speakers has to say about watts and speakers:
"I think that I've amply and comprehensively demonstrated that flea powered amps are a very poor choice, regardless of the sweet talk of the marketing romance. Consider the entire human muscle power of an orchestra playing - perhaps 50 lungs and 200 arms - converting the chemical energy stored in muscle tissue into motion, and via their instruments into sound. What sort of bizarre logic is there behind thinking that a 7W micro-powered amplifier could regenerate those sound waves at home with anything like the true dynamic range of the recording?
To put it into context, 7W is about the same amount of power as a night light placed into a child's bedroom. Nothing"
Full thread can be found at:
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2613-How-much-amplifier-power-do-I-REALLY-need&p=34629#post34629
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:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Unquestionably, Harbeths are very nice speakers, but Alan should stick to what he knows best. The only thing he comprehensively demonstrates is that his speakers are not high efficiency designs. Talk about marketing romance..... :duh:
Another great speaker designer was quoted many times to have said "What this country (USA) needs is a really good 5 watt amp." We all know who said that.
Was that marketing romance too? Of course!
How much power one needs is based almost entirely on:
1) The speaker design
2) The listener's preference (music type and average db's)
3) The environment and listening distance
In terms of chosing a system, point 2 and 3 should be given the most consideration, then point 1.....which then should lead to point 1b. Chosing an appropriate amplifier.
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There isn't much information concerning the RM OTL1 except that it looks like a RM 200 with plate caps. The output is to have a multi tap auto former for greater efficiency and tube life. I couldn't find more. Sorry.
I also must say I agree with Alan Shaw of Harbath about power amplifiers. And I don't even like his speakers. To accurately reproduce sound at any kind of near live listening level requires significant amplifier power. The most noticeable form of distortion is clipping. If you have efficient speakers at least 25 WPC of tube amp is a good start. Double that for solid state. That said, if you listen at low levels, a couple of WPC may be enough. I like my big SS amps for their dynamics. I do use a tiny OTL for voicing my own speakers. It isn't loud, but it sounds phenomenal. Smaller single driver speakers like Omegas do sound good and provide excellent detail with tiny amps if you exercise restraint with the volume knob. And if you are careful, so do big SS amps.
steve
Added: RDavidson, As we all know, Mr Klipsch's K-horns are very efficient at about 104db. A 5 WPC amp can provide enough power for live jazz band levels. My designs are about 10Db less efficient and need a bit more power, but can play even louder. The Omegas can hit 100+Db in a reasonably sized room with moderate amplification. That's impressive. I doubt the Harbath speakers can play at K-horn levels at any amount of power. Design is always a series of compromises.
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The color. As crazy as that sounds, I was able to pick up some M-Lores for a really good price, but they were in satin red. I just really wanted to hear for myself what all the hype was about. If they were in a wood veneer or high gloss finish, I would just keep them and be happy. They are a wonderful sounding speaker.
Jeff,
Having had the chance to audition a pair of Tekton Lore Reference speakers in my system recently and still very interested in Omega (probably 7 XRS) I would LOVE to hear your Tekton "versus" Omega thoughts!
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Note : This thread is about amp recommendations for Omega speakers, not Harbeths, not Klipsch, not Tekton, etc etc. While there has been some useful discussion about amps and power requirements, simply posting info by another speaker designer without context or relating it back to the thread topic is rather useless, and could be easily construed as pot stirring.......which is why I was rather dismissive of it (regarding the Harbeth info).
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Note : This thread is about amp recommendations for Omega speakers, not Harbeths, not Klipsch, not Tekton, etc etc. While there has been some useful discussion about amps and power requirements, simply posting info by another speaker designer without context or relating it back to the thread topic is rather useless, and could be easily construed as pot stirring.......which is why I was rather dismissive of it (regarding the Harbeth info).
No, no stirring up the pot intended. I see your point. I probably should have asked that question through a personal message.
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No big deal. I was speaking more specifically about Dsaldivar's random Harbeth plug. I'm suspecting he did this, as several people have posted their positive experiences switching from Harbeths to Omegas, and he feels a need to defend Harbeth or "teach" us something we don't know. At least you're talking about / are interested in Omega speakers.
Threads can get off topic quickly and become a mess of thoughts which have nothing to do with the thread topic. I think all members have been guilty of this at one point or another. :thumb:
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:|
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No big deal. I was speaking more specifically about Dsaldivar's random Harbeth plug. I'm suspecting he did this, as several people have posted their positive experiences switching from Harbeths to Omegas, and he feels a need to defend Harbeth or "teach" us something we don't know. At least you're talking about / are interested in Omega speakers.
Threads can get off topic quickly and become a mess of thoughts which have nothing to do with the thread topic. I think all members have been guilty of this at one point or another. :thumb:
I believe he has or had Super Alnico Monitors. Interesting idea about power requirements nonetheless, even if not in agreement. All the more interesting as it comes from a prominent speaker designer.
.....Peter
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I believe he has or had Super Alnico Monitors. Interesting idea about power requirements nonetheless, even if not in agreement. All the more interesting as it comes from a prominent speaker designer.
.....Peter
There's actually no disagreement. Harbeths require more power than Omegas to sound their best. What does this fact have to do with Omegas or other high efficiency speaker designs in the context of this thread? I say, very little. It is interesting, but out of place.
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I own a set of Super 3Rs (older, with Fostex). I've paired them with a bunch of amps, including various cheap digital, sundry Chinese SEP/SET amps (Miniwatt, Musical Paradise, Dared and some others I'm forgetting), then finally the Almarro 205A MKII. The Almarro was great for my purposes, and so I stopped looking. If I weren't satisfied, I would've moved on to Decware.
The problem I have with Class D digital amps, is that while they offer etched detail in some regard, they suck out information in the midrange presence area. Just too dry where I want them to be sweet.
The cheaper SEP amps were too congested for my tastes, but the Almarro amp is just right for me. Bear in mind that my goal with this system was to impart a level of euphony to the often crappy source material I have on this system. YMMV
Cheers and happy listening!
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The problem I have with Class D digital amps, is that while they offer etched detail in some regard, they suck out information in the midrange presence area. Just too dry where I want them to be sweet.
The cheaper SEP amps were too congested for my tastes, but the Almarro amp is just right for me.
The Temple Audio Bantam Gold doesn't suffer from an etched top end or lack of midrange presence. I put the Temple up against a classic late 70's class A/B integrated (Onkyo A-7040), and the Temple had a smoother and more refined sound (with no tube buffer). Some Omega owners are liking the Crown XLS-1500.
I've only heard one SEP, the latest version of the Glow Audio Amp One - very spacious sound and not congested at all.
There's good and bad in all amp categories. Your Almarro is one of the best affordable SEPs out there. Good choice.
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RE: Class D, I probably shouldn't have used the loaded word "etched," as what I really meant was that they are very quiet and resolving. I gave Tripath a serious, years' long go, that went beyond the renditions I tried to use with my Omegas. I demo'ed a Bel Canto for a while, and heard a very nice implementation by Stan Warren (who later abandoned the technology because of the same issues I had), and I still have a modded Teac performing a yeoman's job on my Klipsch horns.
The problem I had with them was that none of them were as involving in the midrange as tubes or well-implemented traditional solid state. A lack of "presence." The problem is subtle and sort of hard to describe, and I'm only clarifying because I wish someone would've pointed this out to me before I spent so long being puzzled by why I wasn't enjoying otherwise great sounding amps.
I'm told that other similar technologies (Hypex) solved the problem.
I've seen Canada Rob's contrary and well-informed posts on this board, and JonBee's elsewhere, so I'll just say YMMV.
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monsterbill wrote:
RE: Class D,
The problem I had with them was that none of them were as involving in the midrange as tubes or well-implemented traditional solid state. A lack of "presence." The problem is subtle and sort of hard to describe, and I'm only clarifying because I wish someone would've pointed this out to me before I spent so long being puzzled by why I wasn't enjoying otherwise great sounding amps.
I mentioned earlier that I listened to all three Peachtree Class D amps in my listening room for several days(65se, 125se, 220se). All three utilize a different Class D amplifier section from different manufactures. Don't recall of hand what the 65se is equipped with but the 125se is Texas Instruments and the 220se is B&O ICE.
I would characterize the 65se and 125se along the same lines as monsterbill stated above. Both a bit dry & sterile, just did not feel the rhythm and pace from these two units. The 220se on the other hand just makes you want to Boogie, a very stark difference. So based on my limited experience with the Peachtree line, some Class D amps will sound considerably better than others depending on the technology and implementation.
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ICE amps aren't the "class D flavor of the month" technology anymore, which is good for those who could care less about the latest tech and care more about what sounds pleasing to one's own ears. :thumb:
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At the paltry price Temple charges for their Bantam Gold, it's a low risk purchase. BTW it's not a Class T amplifier like so many of the little amps out there. I find mine highly musical, and the build quality is in a different class than the Trends, Firestone, etc. I moved my Temple/NOS DAC/Super 3i desktop system off the desktop and into the room, and wow does it sound great. I'm running no sub either.
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I thought I would exume this thread to add some interesting amplifier options that work well with Omegas, and these aren't budget amps either. It shows that Omegas are by no means outclassed by a more high end front end. This information comes from a friend of mine in Vancouver who flips a lot of gear. I'll quote him.
"Well, when I bought the Super 3XRS I had no idea I would soon be married to them. Reason being I buy and sell a lot of gear and actually do very well with it. In doing so I have had the pleasure to run some solid state integrated amps ranging from 60wpc to 150wpc. I found the speakers performed amazingly in all areas. The amps are listed below. The speakers are good with anything I have thrown at them. They will never leave.
Moon I-1: 60wpc
Ayre Ax-7e: 60wpc
Bryston b60r sst: 60wpc
Nuforce ref IA-18: 135wpc
Balanced Audio (BAT) Vk-300x solid state: 150wpc"
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Using a fullrange driver with no cross over and solid state into 93 dB. I would look for SS that best mimics a SET. Any SS that is rated at 1khz THD rating. Get rid of the toroidal VA power. Look for an E block transformer. Anything that is not good at driving multiple drivers with cross overs with transient power. Since really well designed SS is great at powering a soundstage that is stiff using multiple drivers in an enclosure built to do so. It is not what we have here. The new Omega drivers are rigid enough by the sou ds of it on this forum. Just let the cabinet work its magic. That is how i look at it. YMMV
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v
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wut?
Using a fullrange driver with no cross over and solid state into 93 dB. I would look for SS that best mimics a SET. Any SS that is rated at 1khz THD rating. Get rid of the toroidal VA power. Look for an E block transformer. Anything that is not good at driving multiple drivers with cross overs with transient power. Since really well designed SS is great at powering a soundstage that is stiff using multiple drivers in an enclosure built to do so. It is not what we have here. The new Omega drivers are rigid enough by the sou ds of it on this forum. Just let the cabinet work its magic. That is how i look at it. YMMV
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+1^^^^^ :rotflmao:
Yeah.......look for poorly designed SS to get the best result from your Omegas. :duh:
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v
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What makes it a poorly designed amp?
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Maybe the MF AMS35i is poorly designed, who am I to tell? :roll:
But it surely make beautifull music through my Omegas. Very happy to learn that the speakers respond well to the increase of amp quality. Try one if you can get your hand on it. Surely the best SS Class A amp I've ever owned.
Edit: I run a KK DX808 sub with the Omega.
I was pointing at werd's comment about looking specifically for SS amps with 1% THD and less stout power supplies. That makes ZERO sense.
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EI core transformers are not less stout. They can be any size, and typically sound better. I like to use them with my DIY7297 amp. So it actually fits werd's description somewhat well.
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Maybe the MF AMS35i is poorly designed, who am I to tell? :roll:
But it surely make beautifull music through my Omegas. Very happy to learn that the speakers respond well to the increase of amp quality. Try one if you can get your hand on it. Surely the best SS Class A amp I've ever owned.
Edit: I run a KK DX808 sub with the Omega.
I was not referring to SS Class A amps actually but only class A/B.
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EI core transformers are not less stout. They can be any size, and typically sound better. I like to use them with my DIY7297 amp. So it actually fits werd's description somewhat well.
OK. But would you say an amp with 1% THD (during normal or "easy" operation) is ever a good thing to seek out?
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omegas regularly use tubes with 5% - 10% thd so what's the fuss about??? :scratch:
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OK. But would you say an amp with 1% THD (during normal or "easy" operation) is ever a good thing to seek out?
I didn't say that, I said rated at 1khz THD but also meant power too. I didn't say 1%.
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Mr Davidson implies class-A ss and his favorite designer Mr Pass,cant argue with that... :thumb:
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OK. But would you say an amp with 1% THD (during normal or "easy" operation) is ever a good thing to seek out?
That's not what werd said, but honestly it doesn't really matter. It's not significant enough that you'd know about it. People pay BIG bucks for Lamm amplifiers rated all the way up to 3% distortion. Distortion is an indicator, not determiner, of sound. Certain types of circuits will inherently sound bad with more distortion, others it won't matter until it's very high. But in general it's just convenient marketing when your product works well with low distortion, so you can play it up like it's an advantage.
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OK. I misinterpreted what werd said. I'm sure I wasn't the only one. But, as you alluded, he wasn't really implicating anything of real importance. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumb: I can't stand it when people try to throw their technical knowledge around just for the sake of 1-upping others and making things more confusing than they need be. :thumbdown:
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OK. I misinterpreted what werd said. I'm sure I wasn't the only one. But, as you alluded, he wasn't really implicating anything of real importance. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumb: I can't stand it when people try to throw their technical knowledge around just for the sake of 1-upping others and making things more confusing than they need be. :thumbdown:
Irony much.
I mostly lurk here and am not in the club, so may be overstepping. I apologise if that is the case. I feel someone has to communicate this politely: please review your posts and be aware of what you post. Perhaps it would be best if you can take your own advice and stay on topic.
Regards.
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I appreciate where you're coming from. I am human. I make mistakes from time to time and try not to repeat them. But, you realize everything you just did was impolite too, right? Apologizing ahead of time and saying "please" doesn't somehow make butting into a conversation, just to publicly call someone out and point out their fault, excusable. It is pretentious and rude. Before you tell others to be more self-aware, perhaps it would best for you to take your own advice as well.
Werd, I'm sorry for being rude earlier. It was uncalled for and not adult-like of me. :oops:
Everyone else, especially the good folks at Omega Speakers, I apologize for my poor manners and further taking the thread off topic. I'll do better. :oops:
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I appreciate where you're coming from. I am human. I make mistakes from time to time and try not to repeat them. But, you realize everything you just did was impolite too, right? Apologizing ahead of time and saying "please" doesn't somehow make butting into a conversation, just to publicly call someone out and point out their fault, excusable. It is pretentious and rude. Before you tell others to be more self-aware, perhaps it would best for you to take your own advice as well.
Most importantly, you took some advice that will hopefully lead to more open, less personally critical exchanges in the future. Thank you for your understanding and graciousness.
Edit: removed my sleep-deprivation triggered rant. It was unhelpful and not likely to contribute to a positive outcome. I will attempt to stay on topic in future, if I post at all. Apologies to all.
Regards.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136414)
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When you recommend an amp that works well with Omega speakers, it would be nice if you upload a picture(s) of the amp. People love pictures.
Awhile back Louis was telling me of a customer who had good success with the Schiit Ragnarok. Nice, affordable, and made in America.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136415)
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I appreciate where you're coming from. I am human. I make mistakes from time to time and try not to repeat them. But, you realize everything you just did was impolite too, right? Apologizing ahead of time and saying "please" doesn't somehow make butting into a conversation, just to publicly call someone out and point out their fault, excusable. It is pretentious and rude. Before you tell others to be more self-aware, perhaps it would best for you to take your own advice as well.
Werd, I'm sorry for being rude earlier. It was uncalled for and not adult-like of me. :oops:
Everyone else, especially the good folks at Omega Speakers, I apologize for my poor manners and further taking the thread off topic. I'll do better. :oops:
No need to apologize. You're opinion of my post was not out of line. I admit my post was not clear.
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I would be searching out for this Huxley Scientific Aquila. 13 watt dual mono class A integrated
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136418)
:thumb:
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EAR 869--- 15 wpc of single ended bliss.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136459)
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Thankfully this thread is back on track, and the drama gone!!
Here is my 18wpc Almarro A318b SET amp, based on the Russian 6C33C-B tube (used in MIG fighters!) and modded with Jupiter Copper Foil coupling caps. Outstanding musicality with my Omega Alnico monitors! Some call this amp a 45 SET on steroids!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136465)
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I recently upgraded from a great SEP to an even better SET amp. I was using a Dennis Had Inspire KT88 amp running a pair of NOS Tung Sol 6550, and just recently picked up a WE91a "clone" amp made by James Burgess with James transformers and oh my do they make my Super 6 Alnicos sing!
I was curious at first if I would even hear much of a difference and let me just say yes it was quite obvious. I have a hard time pinning down everything exactly that is better, but I will give it a go. The soundstage seems to expanded even more and has become a little more 3D if you will. The mid-range is absolutely sublime, even the bass seems a little bit stronger and tighter. All in all it just a much more pleasing and musical sound to me, and I have to say I really love the sound the Inspire gives too.
The WE91a clone has James output transformers, runs 6C6 drivers and currently has one of those ugly potato masher 5R4WGB rectifiers that I'll be rolling soon since I hate the way it looks haha. Right now its using just a basic pair of JJ 300b that came with the amp, plan on upgrading those as soon as I get used to the sound a little more and settle on upgrading the rest of the chain since I'm in upgrade mode right now.
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I have never heard Omegas, but this Wolf Ear Audio amp I am listening to should do wonders. It sure sounds great on my Zellaton speakers. :thumb:
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Here are some nice looking amps that would work with Omega speakers. http://www.classicvalve.ca/ (http://www.classicvalve.ca/)
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I have successfully used Wellbourne amps, Chief 45 and 2A3 designs
as well as Bottle head designs. And good ol' push pull el-34 amps.
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I'm a very happy new owner of some custom Super Alnico XRSs (taller, wider and thinner with "R" compound and birch veneers). I'm currently in a rental property, but will post more later about the speakers when they're in their final resting place once I get back into my house.
But...I did a comparison between 3 amps I have on hand and thought I'd detail that here for anyone who might be interested. The three amps are a Peachtree Nova 65SE, Red Wine Audio Signature 16, and Red Wine Audio Signature 57. Source is an AppleTV streaming lossless from Tidal through a Metrum Hex DAC.
With the Peachtree the Omegas sound awesome. It does a great job especially with the bass - no flab, punchy and tight. Everything else sounds great too. Without anything to compare to I would have no complaints at all...but I guess that's how it usually goes! Switching to the RWA Signature 16 is interesting. The Sig 16 has smoother, airier highs with more dimensionality. The Peachtree sounds a bit crisper, but also adds a little bit of grain that's noticeable especially on vocals. Overall the sounds is a bit flatter. The downside of the 16 is the bass is a little flabby...not terrible but noticeably so to an extent where I ultimately find it distracting.
The Signature 57 is a wonderful step up from both, with the same basic character from the mid-range to treble as the 16, but with improved separation and clarity. Instruments are floating in space, perfectly defined and beautifully natural. The bass is also the best of the three...dimensional, tight, tactile and real. Just an incredible presentation where everything has a rightness to it. Fantastically three dimensional and involving.
So to wrap things up, if I had to choose I'd take the Peachtree over the Signature 16 because the overall presentation is excellent. The 16 might better it in some areas, but the looser bass puts it at the bottom of the list for me. The 57 is easily the winner and an incredible match for the Alnicos.
Ryan
BTW, I compared the Metrum Hex to the DAC in the Peachtree. The Hex was a very noticeable upgrade. Much more dimensional, detailed, and organic.
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Nice report Ryan! I bet the new Vinnie Rossi LIO would also work great with Omegas, it sounded amazing paired with Harbeth at the last RMAF and RWA has frequently been recommended as a good match with Omega.
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I'm thinking of reconnecting my Eico to my 7XRS's for a change from the Decware TORII MK4 they are currently being fed by
(http://cdn.vintagevacuumaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/eico-main.jpg)
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Nice looking amp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140187)
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Pure beauty in my eyes vs digital displays and remote controls.
Regards,
Eric
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Nice looking amp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140187)
Wow, that's the amp I grew up with in my room (with KLH 17s). My dad was a very early hi-fier. Great memories - thanks for posting!
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Hi everyone!
My new amps, Quicksilver Mini Mites, 25 W/C .
No comments about sound yet, but I like what I' hearing. I am expecting delivery of a Decware CSP3 preamp next week. I hope this is a permanent system as I am approaching retirement in 4 years.
The box on the right side is a Hsu Research sub.
Dan
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140787)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140788)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140789)
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Hi Dan,
Thanks and your system looks great. The Quicksilvers are a fantastic match. Look forward to hearing about the Decware pre.
Thanks again,
Louis
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I took delivery of the CSP3 preamp today.
My system consists of Quicksilver Mini Mites tube amps, and Omega Alnico Monitors.
The Decware preamp is a perfect match and great synergy with my system.
What a difference a preamp makes! The Alnico monitors really sing with this preamp.
Problem is that I bought a HSU Research subwoofer and quite frankly for classical and jazz music the Omega Alnico monitors do not need one.
Here is a couple of pictures of the Decware CSP3 preamp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141302)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141303)
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That's one handsome pre-amp! What are your sources and what does the Decware replace?
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Thankfully this thread is back on track, and the drama gone!!
Here is my 18wpc Almarro A318b SET amp, based on the Russian 6C33C-B tube (used in MIG fighters!) and modded with Jupiter Copper Foil coupling caps. Outstanding musicality with my Omega Alnico monitors! Some call this amp a 45 SET on steroids!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136465)
how much do the tubes cost? for replacement?
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My sources are:
- Technics 1200 record player/cartridge is an Ortofon HMC 30/ Budgie SUT Transformer
- Marantz CD player connected to Schiit Bifrost DAC
- phono preamp is a Plinius Soru
The preamp came with 3 Telefunken 6922 tubes and a Valve Art 274B tube rectifier.
I have no idea how much is going to cost me once I have to replace the tubes. I am really surprised and impressed the way Alnico monitors play music with such powerful dynamic range when they are driven by more watts. It really pays to invest in high quality sources to be able to hear what the Omega speakears are capable of.
I believe that 2 or 6 watts are not enough to make any Omega speakers sound to their best, I mean they sound loud with 2 or 8 watts but the sound lacks weight and presence.
In my room, my system and my ears no less than 15 watts is what these speakers need to really sing.
Here is couple a of pictures of the sources
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141370)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141371)
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Where's your other foot? :lol:
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I only have one foot, kidding!
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I believe that 2 or 6 watts are not enough to make any Omega speakers sound to their best, I mean they sound loud with 2 or 8 watts but the sound lacks weight and presence.
Dsaldivar,
You have a lovely system. Wow!
Is Quicksilver still in business? I've always been interested in his amps. I hear they're very good.
I've played various Omegas on amps anywhere from 2w/ch to 50w/ch, flea powered SET to descrete A/B SS and almost everything in between (yet I haven't heard a fraction of what's out there - it would take five lifetimes and Trump's bank account), and they all bring their own unique flavor to the table. Been doing this for about 7 years and still find the best sounding amp type for Omega (in my experience) to be an EL84/6N15N or 6L6 single tube per output, zero negative feedback, pure class A SET. Zen, Rachel, and Kitoki are prime examples. This is my preference as this amp type answers my priorities for audio such as insane spooky 3D imaging and sense of space, killer midrange, speed, detail, liquidity of presentation, and a "you are there" feeling. On my systems 2-6w/ch is plenty of power.
A 2+ volt source should be used though.
That said, if you're into higher volume, greater dynamics, tighter bass control (generally, but not always), a more powerful PP is a great choice. For Omegas to sound their "best" is up to each individual and their particular taste, and their music choice. So, in the subjective world of audio there is no absolute "best". :thumb:
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Nice looking amp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140187)
Maybe someday my HF-81 will come back from the tech someday. Until then I'll rough it with my Scott 222c.
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Hi syzygy,
Thanks it's a great looking amp and hope you get it back soon. One of my favorite vintage amps is the Fisher X202b. Fantastic sound and good examples can get pricey.
Thanks,
Louis
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Has anyone paired a Prima Luna Prologue Premium with their Omegas?
EDIT: Actually I should have said the Dialogue Premium Integrated w/ switchable Ultralinear and Triode modes?
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Hi,
I run my omegas with an Audio Note Soro Line SE.
Beautiful sound.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152165)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152166)
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Add the DAC 36v Marashino Cherry amps to this list. These Omega 3i's are sounding incredible.