More detailed TACT information

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ctviggen

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More detailed TACT information
« on: 13 Jul 2005, 08:36 pm »
Anyone know where I can get more detailed TACT information?  For instance, on what type of filter it is creating and what type of frequency response graphing it uses.  I ask because I have some problems with (1) the technical descriptions on the website and with (2) what people have reported as frequency response graphs of the room.  For instance:

(1) "The actual frequency response is compared to the desired frequency response defined by the user, and the system calculates an extremely complex inverse filter for each speaker which will give the desired frequency response with the best possible time behavior. The filter is itself an impulse (in the time domain) which corrects both the time and frequency domain behavior of the speaker - room combination."

This statement makes no sense to me -- how can a filter be an impulse?  An impulse is, mathematically, something of infinite height  and infinitely small width with a weight of one (analog) or a value of "one" put out for one duration of time (digital).  How could a filter be an impulse?  It might create an impulse in the time domain, but it cannot be an impulse in the time domain.

(2) The in room responses that I have seen indicate that the TACT is smoothing the response.  When I compare the measurements by my ETF system versus the TACT measurements (granted, not in the same room), the TACT's measurements seem way too smooth.  Either my room is terrible or the TACT is filtering at least the dips.

csero

Re: More detailed TACT information
« Reply #1 on: 13 Jul 2005, 09:13 pm »
Quote from: ctviggen
This statement makes no sense to me -- how chan a filter be an impulse? ...


 The filter which you need for the correction can be represented as an impulse(-response to a dirac impulse input) or as a freq graph. In theory the filter realization is convoluting the impulse with the original signal, but it is still too processing intensive, so in reality it is done with FFT in the freq domain (which also has problems) or with partitioned convolution in the time domain.


Quote from: ctviggen
(2) The in room responses that I have seen indicate that the TACT is smoothing the response. When I compare the measurements by my ETF system versus the TACT measurements (granted, not in the same room), the TACT's measurements seem way too smooth. Either my room is terrible or the TACT is filtering at least the dips ...


Yes, real life measurements are far worse looking and have wider dispersion than we would like. If you want to use inverse filtering for correction you you have to set limits  in advance to have reasonable result( eg. LF correction is limited by the impulse length, HF is limited by the proximity of the Nyquist freq, midband has to use smoothed measurement  and error limit not to overemphasize the small peaks and dip, which are changing anyway inch by inch in the room)

ekovalsky

More detailed TACT information
« Reply #2 on: 13 Jul 2005, 09:32 pm »
The FR graphs are most definitely smoothed.  There is alternative software that can be used called "Good Vibrations" that will display the unsmoothed response.  It looks like a seismograph tracing during an earthquake!  If you are interested I can email you the software.

Time/phase correction by the TacT is basically nonexistent, unless you do so manually.  In fact, the factory software for the 2.2X cannot properly time align the mains and subs when using DSP crossovers.  In more complex multi-amp setups with DSP crossovers, it is up to the user to manually program correct delays for each driver group.

OBF

More detailed TACT information
« Reply #3 on: 14 Jul 2005, 11:38 pm »
Quote from: ekovalsky
Time/phase correction by the TacT is basically nonexistent, unless you do so manually.  In fact, the factory software for the 2.2X cannot properly time align the mains and subs when using DSP crossovers.  In more complex multi-amp setups ...


Is that one of the main differences between the TacT and DEQX?  Or at least one of the supposed differences?

ekovalsky

More detailed TACT information
« Reply #4 on: 15 Jul 2005, 12:20 am »
Quote from: OBF
Quote from: ekovalsky
Time/phase correction by the TacT is basically nonexistent, unless you do so manually.  In fact, the factory software for the 2.2X cannot properly time align the mains and subs when using DSP crossovers.  In more complex multi-amp setups ...


Is that one of the main differences between the TacT and DEQX?  Or at least one of the supposed differences?


Probably.  One thing the TacT software lacks is the ability to measure after correction/crossovers are engaged.  The time errors are introduced because activating different high and low pass DSP filters creates different delay on the main and sub outputs.

The DEQX, I think, does allow re-measuring with DSP activated so it should be much easier to time align the system.

I'm hopeful a TacT software update will enable this on current units.  It has been promised for future TacT & Lyngdorf products, but we'll have to see what the future brings.  

I have a graph in my gallery (made by someone on the Yahoo TacT group using dual RCS in series) that shows the manual delay to be added to achieve time alignment, based on DSP crossover slope and frequency.  It is a good workaround for the time being.

Mark_H

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More detailed TACT information
« Reply #5 on: 24 Aug 2005, 06:14 pm »
The Yahoo TacT group has a ton on info on the inner workings of the TacT.  

In the TAUGSOA (TacT user group spill over area) in the Files section you can find the TacTility guide... this is a very in depth document on how the TacT units do their thing.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TacTAudioUsersGroup/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TAUGSOA/files/Audio%20TacTility/

Mark