[aceinc]

Disclaimer, I am a cable skeptic.

I was putzing about and decided to see if I could hear a difference with different speaker cables yesterday. My main HT/2 channel system uses 12 gauge "zip" cord & banana plugs for both connecting between the amplifiers & the wall, in the wall and between the wall and the speakers. The cables I was A/Bing were built by a local audiophile using Teflon shielded Mil-Spec pure copper wire with spade connectors.

My amplifiers are Emotiva XPA-1s. I was using a Marantz AV7704 as a preamp/DAC and a Sony Blu-ray player as the media device. The speakers are Magnepan 2.7QRs.

The music I was listening to was various cuts which I use to demo equipment. They were originally Red Book CDs ripped to FLAC and saved on a thumb drive. I was listening in 2 channel with Audyssey turned off, subwoofers turned on.

Could I hear a difference? Maybe. It certainly wasn't an epiphany as some people describe.

If there was a difference, the bass may have been a little tighter and the midrange may have been a little more clear. Was it expectation bias? I am not sure.

Being that my normal configuration has about 4'-5' of cables from the wall to the speaker and the amp to the wall as well as ~10' of cable in the wall with 4 sets of banana plugs on each connection, I would assume this is pretty much worst case as far as speaker cables are concerned. The "good" cables I used were ~10' & connected directly from the amplifiers to the speakers. The cables were laying on a wood floor.

Did I do a reasonable A/B test? What should I do differently?

[S Clark]

I also have AV receiver for my HT.  I too cannot hear a difference in wiring.

But my stereo unit is a different thing entirely.  And in it, differences in power cables, interconnects, phono cables, and speaker cables are easily discernible.

I also find that in most wiring, lower end designs (DIY and local builders) don't offer much improvement over basic Radio Shack type speaker wire and Best Buy interconnects.  But there are gains to be had, just not especially cheap. 

[aceinc]

I also have AV receiver for my HT.  I too cannot hear a difference in wiring.

But my stereo unit is a different thing entirely.  And in it, differences in power cables, interconnects, phono cables, and speaker cables are easily discernible.

This is not an AV Receiver, it, at the time it was built, was the penultimate Sound Processor Marantz sold. The amplifiers are pretty decent as well.

I have a second system with tubes & Klipsch Cornwall IIIs. Unfortunately this is in a less desirable listening area and one of the tube mono blocks has a bit of a hum.

[Photon46]

FWIW, when I used Magnepan 1.7 speakers I didn't find them to be particularly revealing about differences between speaker cables. That said, you only A/B tested comparisons between two cables. The fact you heard no differences between those two doesn't mean the result is applicable to all other cable comparisons or other component and speaker combinations.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I can hear a difference in XLR's and IC's in my reference system. The differences are not huge but easy to hear.  USB cables however have huge differences in sound.  I have not tried different speaker wire yet.

Cables are system and cable dependent.  I have many brands of IC's and not all sound different and in some of my lesser systems, they make no difference. As usual, YMMV.

[S Clark]

This is not an AV Receiver, it, at the time it was built, was the penultimate Sound Processor Marantz sold. The amplifiers are pretty decent as well.

I have a second system with tubes & Klipsch Cornwall IIIs. Unfortunately this is in a less desirable listening area and one of the tube mono blocks has a bit of a hum.

I stand corrected and you have my apologies.  I looked it up, but didn't realize that my search for the 7704 pulled up the 7706 as well. I should have looked more carefully.   
Still, I've listened to lots of speaker cables before finding a set that made any real difference.  In my system (and my old ears), power cables offer the largest change, interconnects next, and speaker cables last.  A friend hears no benefit from power cables. 

[aceinc]

I stand corrected and you have my apologies.  I looked it up, but didn't realize that my search for the 7704 pulled up the 7706 as well. I should have looked more carefully.   
Still, I've listened to lots of speaker cables before finding a set that made any real difference.  In my system (and my old ears), power cables offer the largest change, interconnects next, and speaker cables last.

No problem.

As far as Interconnects, I am using 1 meter generic XLR cables between the processor & the amps. The HDMI cable between the BluRay player and the processor is a 2.1 generic.

My understanding on XLR cables is, if the both ends (preamp & amp) are implemented correctly the cable makes little difference, that plus the short length and my best attempt to route low voltage and hi voltage cables away from each other should help. It is certainly a quiet system, when I put my ear close any speaker I hear no noise.

[corndog71]

When it comes to cable comparisons, one thing that drives me crazy is when the cables being compared are not much different to each other geometry wise.  In other words 2 twisted or parallel pairs may not show much of a difference.  Nor should one be expected.  That is unless your comparing the differences in insulation or metal type.  Still, not much of a physical difference.

Now if you compare your zip cord to a very different cable such as one that is braided with similar resistance and you should have a noticeable difference.

It’s no big secret that wire gauge can make a difference.  Compare an 18awg to a 12 awg and the latter will sound louder due to less resistance.  But will it sound better?  Bass will likely be improved but what about the midrange and high frequencies?  Perhaps not.

12awg zip cord may be just fine up to 200Hz but as you go higher in frequency a measurable effect occurs which essentially slows down or smears the music signal just a bit.  Just enough to be audible.  This is about the time domain being affected.  This is especially noticeable at lower volumes.  At a lower volume zip cord starts masking mid and upper frequencies.  You can increase the volume to mitigate this somewhat but the inductance and capacitance of the speaker cable will still restrict upper frequencies and smear them in the time domain.

This is where the benefits of braiding the conductors comes in.  The braiding affects inductance as well as capacitance.  Ideally you want all LCR parameters as low as possible but unfortunately it’s not that simple.  Lowering inductance raises capacitance and vice versa.  Anyway, it’s these parameters that affect mid and higher frequencies.  Braiding also allows the opposing conductors to be at an angle to each other which means less interaction between them.  This also equals less RFI & EMI which allows for a clearer signal and in particular at lower volumes.

[aceinc]

The "good" cables are individual wires comprised of two perhaps 16 gauge wires twisted and soldered into the spade lugs. The insulation of the zip cord is indeterminate, the "good" cable is Teflon. The "good" cable is comprised of independent wires which are not in the same "sheath." In other words there are two separate wires running to each speaker. The zip cord is of course two wires running in parallel in the same "sheath".

Beyond this I have no ability to test the inductance or capacitance of the cables. I could test the overall resistance, but I have not done so.

[charmerci]

I find the differences are most noticable when I push the volume up on my system.

[NoahH]

The "good" cables are individual wires comprised of two perhaps 16 gauge wires twisted and soldered into the spade lugs. The insulation of the zip cord is indeterminate, the "good" cable is Teflon. The "good" cable is comprised of independent wires which are not in the same "sheath." In other words there are two separate wires running to each speaker. The zip cord is of course two wires running in parallel in the same "sheath".

Beyond this I have no ability to test the inductance or capacitance of the cables. I could test the overall resistance, but I have not done so.

Those sound like perfectly good wires, but I would also not draw very strong conclusions of anything about cables as a class from those. Mil-spec stuff is generally more about consistency than anything else, and there are an infinite number of specs. Mil-spec helps for stuff like tubes because that consistency is a big deal.

For audio cables, it is largely about purity, crystalline structure, insulation, termination, but perhaps most of all - geometry. I don't think there is any premium cable that is just a couple wires of high quality - they are all woven, varied gauges, hybridized sets of metals, etc.

[mjosef]

Being that my normal configuration has about 4'-5' of cables from the wall to the speaker and the amp to the wall as well as ~10' of cable in the wall with 4 sets of banana plugs on each connection, I would assume this is pretty much worst case as far as speaker cables are concerned. The "good" cables I used were ~10' & connected directly from the amplifiers to the speakers. The cables were laying on a wood floor.

Yeap, worst case comparison set up, too many variables. You need to have the most direct path between source and load.

[Early B.]

Those sound like perfectly good wires, but I would also not draw very strong conclusions of anything about cables as a class from those.

Yeah, both sets of cables are on the low end of the spectrum, so your results are to be expected. As S Clark indicated, a higher-end stereo system will be much more revealing of cable differences.

[simoon]

It would be great if you could list the tracks you used for your listening tests.

I have noticed that the greatest and most obvious differences  in speaker cables I detect, are in things like: soundstage width, depth and height. And within that sounstage, do the individual musicians occupy their own location, with noticeable space between each other. And the natural ambience of the acoustic space (can I 'hear the walls'?).

Better cables reproduce that sort of stuff better than inferior cables.

When I Iisten for differences in cables, I do not listen to things like bass, or midrange, or highs. I listen for things like: how far beyond the outer edges of my speakers do the violins come from, does the percussionist seem to be coming from the back of orchestra, etc? Where in the soundstage do the sax, bass, drums, piano seem to be? And does it seem like there are actual people playing them?

These sorts of things are a product of very small (microseconds) timing cues being kept intact. And the better the cable, the better they are kept intact.

One caveat I will mention, is, that these differences are much easier to hear with music that is recorded where all the musicians are playing at tha same time, in the same acoustic space, and minimal studio manipulation is done after the fact. And the recording engineer took efforts to capture the natural ambience of that space, using something like a Decca tree, or Blumlein configuration.

The vast majority of studio recordings will not reveal this sort of imaging and soundstage, since so much processing and effects are used.

I would say, listen again using recordings with natural ambience (classical, chamber music, acoustic jazz), if these aren't already part of the cuts you use to demo equipment, but ignore how the highs or bass sounds, and lisren for how big the soundstage seems,  can I 'see' musicians within that soundstage, how far back does the percussionist seem to be,etc.

If you still are unable to tell much of a difference, it may be that neither cable is good at this specific aspect.

[aceinc]

It would be great if you could list the tracks you used for your listening tests.

I have noticed that the greatest and most obvious differences  in speaker cables I detect, are in things like: soundstage width, depth and height. And within that sounstage, do the individual musicians occupy their own location, with noticeable space between each other. And the natural ambience of the acoustic space (can I 'hear the walls'?).

Better cables reproduce that sort of stuff better than inferior cables.

When I Iisten for differences in cables, I do not listen to things like bass, or midrange, or highs. I listen for things like: how far beyond the outer edges of my speakers do the violins come from, does the percussionist seem to be coming from the back of orchestra, etc? Where in the soundstage do the sax, bass, drums, piano seem to be? And does it seem like there are actual people playing them?

These sorts of things are a product of very small (microseconds) timing cues being kept intact. And the better the cable, the better they are kept intact.

One caveat I will mention, is, that these differences are much easier to hear with music that is recorded where all the musicians are playing at tha same time, in the same acoustic space, and minimal studio manipulation is done after the fact. And the recording engineer took efforts to capture the natural ambience of that space, using something like a Decca tree, or Blumlein configuration.

The vast majority of studio recordings will not reveal this sort of imaging and soundstage, since so much processing and effects are used.

I would say, listen again using recordings with natural ambience (classical, chamber music, acoustic jazz), if these aren't already part of the cuts you use to demo equipment, but ignore how the highs or bass sounds, and lisren for how big the soundstage seems,  can I 'see' musicians within that soundstage, how far back does the percussionist seem to be,etc.

If you still are unable to tell much of a difference, it may be that neither cable is good at this specific aspect.

Here is a list of the music, "Cum on Feel the Noize." is there to see what a poorly recorded song sounds like.

[Letitroll98]

Cable comparisons are always a crap shoot.  I've had everything from hearing no difference whatsoever to holy mother of God I have a new system!  Therefore my feeling is that it's highly system and environment specific.  I couldn't begin to tell the OP here that he should or shouldn't hear anything or why either of those positions are more valid than the other.  However I can't unhear what I've so very clearly heard, so for me cables can make significant impacts on your system and nothing anyone posts will alter my experience.  That being said I'm still uncomfortable not having a consensus on the mechanisms that drive these differences.  Those on the front lines, EEs, aren't helpful.  Some claim there can't be a difference when they're easily heard by tens of thousands of audiophiles, other EEs hear the difference in the sound of cables, but are all over the place on why.  At the end of the day all we can do at this point is dispense with both "You can't hear anything because either your system or your hearing sucks" and "You audiophools are delusional and easily separated from your money".  Both of those are false narratives.

[aceinc]

I have not found a difference, and many people indicate a difference should be found, if not with these cables, with some cables.

Since I am too cheap to purchase Danny's cables, which are not terribly expensive based on some of the astronomical prices I have seen, I will attempt a DIY speaker cable build.

My thought on the design of the cables has to do with material availability. I have access to Teflon coated Category 6 Ethernet cable used for in wall office networks which is the cable I am considering.

I will braid 4 cables yielding 32 individual strands. Each cable has 8 wires (4 pairs), each pair is twisted white/color & color/white. I will gather all white/color wires for one conductor, and all color/white for the other.

My thought on connectors are https://www.parts-express.com/Expanding-Banana-Plug-with-Dual-Set-Screws-and-Carbon-Fiber-091-3614 although these are a bit pricey. I am open to recommendations for connectors. I do not have the ability to use "Tube Connectors" as far as I know. My equipment all has N-way binding posts.

Should cables designed thus have a discernible audio signature different from my current 12 gauge zip cord set up?

[Danny Richie]

aceinc, exploring a DIY path is a good place to start.

Those banana plugs you linked are not good. They are high mass and are a lot of Brass.

Can you use Spade connectors?

[aceinc]

aceinc, exploring a DIY path is a good place to start.

Those banana plugs you linked are not good. They are high mass and are a lot of Brass.

Can you use Spade connectors?

Yes, spade connectors, while not as easy, will work. What would you recommend?

Actually I have Magnepan speakers which I have plugged banana plugs like this, https://www.parts-express.com/Gold-Dual-Banana-Plug-Red-091-332 which I can use spade connectors on. On the amplifiers, there are N-way binding posts which allow spade connectors through the hole and tightened down..

[S Clark]

Since I am too cheap to purchase...

I'm really not trying to be rude.
My experience is that there are few gains to be had with cheap cables.  I've got several I could pass along for inexpensive prices that made some (but not much) difference in my system- from $40 to $100 (about 60+% or more discount from list).  I could even guarantee your money back when you hear no difference, but you'd be out two way shipping.  At least you'd know they were commercial quality from suppliers here on Audio Circle. 
Seriously, PM me if you're interested and I'll give the manufacturer and model. 
Scott