AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: Daedalus Audio on 17 Jan 2015, 04:25 am
-
do cables make a difference :duh:
For the last month all my top shelf Wywires cables were on loan to customers for audition, I have lots of good cables so no big deal... right?
So the other day a few sets of the Wywires Platinum and Diamond interconnects came back, I put them in the shop system and didn't think anything of it. Until they settled in...... then we were working 60 ft away wondering if there was a band in the other room. It was that good and that big of a difference. To be honest most of the time I don't get that excited about audio anymore, but this was such a dramatic change and made the system so lifelike and dynamic that I am totally engaged.
-
Absolutely!
I'm one of the customers who was auditioning the WyWires Platinum interconnects. I liked them enough that I bought a phono cable and 3 pairs of interconnects. First, I replaced a Cardas Golden Reference phono cable and it was a no brainer. It was like there was more music coming from the grooves--more detail, clarity, seemed to have a larger, deeper soundstage when the recording called for it.
I then replaced 3 sets of Audio Quest Panther interconnects with the WyWires Platinum. The Panthers are good interconnects. They retailed in the $600-700 range back in the day and have the 36v dbs. Audio Quest replaced them with the River series (Colorado was the equivalent). With the WyWires the system was more open, wider, deeper soundstage, more clarity and detail, more separation of instruments. It seemed like there was more music coming from the speakers than with the Panthers. Yesterday, after the WyWires had about 100 hours on them I was listening to a familiar song, R.E.M.'s "Don't Go Back to Rockville," and it was like I was hearing the song for the first time. The soundstage was beyond the walls of my listening room and the detail and clarity I was hearing was better than anytime before.
So, yes, put me in the cables do make a difference group. I encourage you to give WyWires a listen. Alex offers a no questions asked 30 day money back guarantee.
-
Seems like cables are more important than the room or even components for that matter.
Perhaps I'll try a set or two and connect to my pre and amps and see how awesome they sound in my living room that has ceramic tile for flooring or even my basement that has all concrete floor and walls,Oh now they don't seem so fantastic,it's your room zzzzzzz
Or the gymnasium(remember) or the great outdoors,actually try them all and I'm sure you will believe it is the room,venue what have you that makes the difference.
Just like singin in the shower with all that ceramic tile reflection, man I sound great.
-
I'll add my voice to the Wywires- I used their Silver speaker cables to good effect and the Platinum really opened things up to a remarkable degree, and added deeper bass and more top end air and extension. Very refined. And yes, in a high resolution system cable selection can make all the difference in going from "good" to "WOW".
-
Seems like cables are more important than the room or even components for that matter.
Perhaps I'll try a set or two and connect to my pre and amps and see how awesome they sound in my living room that has ceramic tile for flooring or even my basement that has all concrete floor and walls,Oh now they don't seem so fantastic,it's your room zzzzzzz
Or the gymnasium(remember) or the great outdoors,actually try them all and I'm sure you will believe it is the room,venue what have you that makes the difference.
Just like singin in the shower with all that ceramic tile reflection, man I sound great.
sarcasm??? :scratch: I hope so.
EVERY component is important, including the room. Source, pre amp, amplifier, cables, power, and of course the room are ALL part of a system. Granted in a great system you will hear more (or less) of what is in the recording,,, so there is always 'that' bottleneck.
My point here is that each component is critical, and cables are a component. Details matter.
-
I'll add my voice to the Wywires- I used their Silver speaker cables to good effect and the Platinum really opened things up to a remarkable degree, and added deeper bass and more top end air and extension. Very refined. And yes, in a high resolution system cable selection can make all the difference in going from "good" to "WOW".
Opened things up to a remarkable degree? How is that accomplished prey tell? Please do.
-
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112950)
-
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112950)
:thumb:
I find it interesting that some people feel; that every other part of a system including the room makes a big difference (it all does :thumb:),
but wire is just wire and has no effect?
So I pose the question for those who feel this way:
Have you never heard any difference in your system when changing cables?
I'm just curious...
-
Woops. I think I'll stay out of this after all.
Doc
-
Of course wires make a difference. I can prove it here.
Some people don't hear it or will not admit it.
Some might not use something worthwhile hearing that difference. :duh:
Why? This has been going on for a long time.
OK on with the arguments.............
-
I would have to go check my hearing if I could not hear a difference.
But my wife thinks all amps sound alike. She definitely needs to get her hearing checked, or she just doesn't care.
-
Of course cables make a difference and I don't think it's just a matter of system matching, i.e., choosing the right seasoning, if you will, for the rest of the components. Some wire is just better than other wire. And of course cables are just one component of a SYSTEM, so almost everything matters in the end.
Last spring and summer, I went through a period I described as cablemania, where I auditioned an array of speaker cables and interconnects. I originally used Auditorium 23 speaker cables and interconnects, which were optimally matched to my Shindo amp and preamp. When I moved on from Shindo to a Crayon CFA 1.2 integrated and Crayon phono stage, I wanted to try other cables. The speakers I own are Athenas with all current upgrades. So I contacted Lou and Alex at WyWires and the Cable Company and auditioned, at the same time, speaker cables and interconnects from Audience (top of the line Au24 SE cables), WyWires (Platinum), and High Fidelity cables (CT-1E). I also auditioned Lou's own speaker cables where he has specified the design and Alex at WyWires manufactures them. And I continued to listen to my Auditorium 23 cables.
Listening to cables is work. You have to really devote yourself in a concentrated time period to a lot of repetitive listening and do a lot of changing out. If you do this, I promise you will start to get a bead on the sonic signature of each cable.
None of the cables I auditioned were "bad." The Auditorium 23 were probably a mismatch to my current components and were the easiest to eliminate. I could have lived with any of the other combos, but there were very significant differences. I'm happy to go into those differences if anyone is curious but I'll just tell you my final verdict.
For speaker cables, nothing beat Lou's own design. It just lets more music through -- a fatter pipe, if you will. What surprised me was that Lou's speaker cable bested every other cable even when the speaker cable of company X was matched with the interconnect of company X. Maybe it should not have surprised me in light of the fact that Lou has matched these cables to the internal wiring of his speakers. After listening to all of these different speaker cables, I've come to the conclusion that Lou's cable is really good value for the money.
For interconnects, I originally settled on Rick Schultz's High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Enhanced interconnects. But the WyWires Platinum that I auditioned was very good and it got me to wondering how the WyWires Gold would sound. So I auditioned that and compared it to the High Fidelity Cables IC. Both were excellent and I appreciated the different qualities they brought to the system. So I ended up with one IC from High Fidelity and one from WyWires (the Gold with the Bybee Purifiers). I only need two ICs in my system -- one for digital and one for analogue. With two interconnects, I occasionally switch them around so that I get four different presentations (two for digital and two for analogue). FWIW, WyWires apparently no longer makes the Gold series; it was replaced by the Diamond last October.
-
do cables make a difference ... oh yeah!
going from Blue Jeans speaker cables to Nordost , it made a major difference in my ...................................WALL ET
-
I believe this will shed some light on the debate. :scratch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3UQDTZcpsDE
-
I believe this will shed some light on the debate. :scratch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3UQDTZcpsDE
:lol: :lol: :lol: That is just hysterical. Seriously though, I make a good portion of my own cables in addition to buying some. I have multiple systems. On some systems I have made things and heard a nice difference and substituting those cables on a second system made a smaller difference.
-
They do, but mostly they sound very similar.
14ga white lightening vs Analysis+ high end speaker cables made me an instant believer. It was like hitting a bass boost button.
-
. . . I originally used Auditorium 23 speaker cables and interconnects, which were optimally matched to my Shindo amp and preamp. . . . The Auditorium 23 were probably a mismatch to my current components and were the easiest to eliminate. . . . Lou has matched these cables to the internal wiring of his speakers. . . .
How are cables optimally matched to amps and preamps? What makes a cable a mismatch? How does one go about matching speaker cable to the internal wiring of a speaker? Should interconnects also be matched to the internal wiring of amps and preamps?
-
How are cables optimally matched to amps and preamps? What makes a cable a mismatch? How does one go about matching speaker cable to the internal wiring of a speaker? Should interconnects also be matched to the internal wiring of amps and preamps?
Reasonable questions.
In the case of Auditorium 23, the German designer, although not affiliated with Shindo, specifically designed the cables for Shindo amps. So they are voiced in a specific way through trial and error listening and if you look at the cables that Shindo owners employ, you will find a majority use either Shindo or Auditorium 23 or a combination of the two. The Crayon amp I now use is a completely different, solid state design.
In general, a good starting point is to experiment with the cables, or brand of cables, that a particular speaker maker has used when developing a particular model of speaker. Or, if the speaker designer favors a certain brand or model of cables at shows, then that may be worth trying. I'm sure Lou probably uses a variety of cables when developing his speakers, but he obviously likes WyWires.
While I cannot enlighten you with technical background on wire design, it makes intuitive sense to me that cables designed for a tube amp would not be the best match for a solid state amp.
With regard to matching speaker cable to the internal wiring of a speaker, Lou would be best qualified to answer that question. What I can say is that Lou told me that the design of his speaker cable is either very similar or identical to the wire used in his higher end speakers.
And while I have not heard of IC designs matching the internal wiring of an amp or preamp, it would not surprise me to learn of real world examples. Perhaps others can enlighten us.
-
How are cables optimally matched to amps and preamps? What makes a cable a mismatch? How does one go about matching speaker cable to the internal wiring of a speaker? Should interconnects also be matched to the internal wiring of amps and preamps?
I can only address the speaker cable question here as it applies to the Daedalus speakers.
We take the internal wiring of our speaker systems very seriously and have spent years developing the optimum wire and configuration
for these systems. In that sense using similar technology from the speaker to the amplifier is just a continuation of the care we use in the speaker systems. Seems logical to me.
We try to make these systems as neutral as possible and have found that many of the available speaker cables are 'tone controls' which we do not recommend
to use with our speakers, this is why we make these cables.
-
Reasonable questions.
In the case of Auditorium 23, the German designer, although not affiliated with Shindo, specifically designed the cables for Shindo amps. So they are voiced in a specific way through trial and error listening and if you look at the cables that Shindo owners employ, you will find a majority use either Shindo or Auditorium 23 or a combination of the two. The Crayon amp I now use is a completely different, solid state design.
That's just re-wording what you originally stated. My question was how.
While I cannot enlighten you with technical background on wire design, it makes intuitive sense to me that cables designed for a tube amp would not be the best match for a solid state amp.
Tube and solid state amps require different types of speaker cables? Even if both amps have 8 ohm outputs?
-
.
I can only address the speaker cable question here as it applies to the Daedalus speakers. . . .
We try to make these systems as neutral as possible and have found that many of the available speaker cables are 'tone controls' which we do not recommend to use with our speakers, this is why we make these cables.
What makes other speaker cables affect the tone of a speaker? How do you keep yours neutral?
-
That's just re-wording what you originally stated. My question was how.
Tube and solid state amps require different types of speaker cables? Even if both amps have 8 ohm outputs?
As to your specific "how" question, I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near the technical competence to answer your question.
And I never said that tube and solid state amps require different types of speaker cables. But it makes sense to me that a cable specifically designed for Shindo tube amps might not sound as good as other cables, designed for wider use, on a solid state amp. More importantly, the proof is in the listening: each of the other four speaker cables I auditioned sounded better than Auditorium 23 cables when paired with my Crayon amp.
If you don't believe that different cables sound different, and that some cables are better than others in particular systems, just say so.
-
As to your specific "how" question, I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near the technical competence to answer your question.
And I never said that tube and solid state amps require different types of speaker cables. But it makes sense to me that a cable specifically designed for Shindo tube amps might not sound as good as other cables, designed for wider use, on a solid state amp. More importantly, the proof is in the listening: each of the other four speaker cables I auditioned sounded better than Auditorium 23 cables when paired with my Crayon amp.
If you don't believe that different cables sound different, and that some cables are better than others in particular systems, just say so.
I was just asking you about some of the statements you made.
EDIT: You are correct, you did not say that tube and solid state amps require different cables. I just need some help understanding how a cable is specifically designed for a specific amp. It seems to me that a cable can't see a difference between an audio signal from a tube and an audio signal from a transistor.
-
I was just asking you about some of the statements you made.
EDIT: You are correct, you did not say that tube and solid state amps require different cables. I just need some help understanding how a cable is specifically designed for a specific amp. It seems to me that a cable can't see a difference between an audio signal from a tube and an audio signal from a transistor.
It is about voicing not detecting any difference in 'signal'.
-
I can only address the speaker cable question here as it applies to the Daedalus speakers.
We take the internal wiring of our speaker systems very seriously and have spent years developing the optimum wire and configuration
for these systems. In that sense using similar technology from the speaker to the amplifier is just a continuation of the care we use in the speaker systems. Seems logical to me.
We try to make these systems as neutral as possible and have found that many of the available speaker cables are 'tone controls' which we do not recommend
to use with our speakers, this is why we make these cables.
Wow, I think that is awesome that you go to such lengths to get the best sound possible from your speakers!
Even though I just recently purchased some new speakers, I'm always on the look out for other styles and designs. I will be visiting some family in Oregon this summer and would love to make a visit to your shop. I'll get in touch with you when the time comes.
Back to the cable discussion, I've been upgrading all my cables recently including power cables. Amazing what even a power cable can do. I think this debate seems to always end the same where some people appreciate what particular cables can do while others will resent the fact that people can distinguish one from another.
-
I have Shindo gear. I've always used A23 cables with great success. I then got a Shindo interconnect for amp to pre. Just changing this one cable was a massive improvement over an already great cable (that was also made for Shindo equipment). I put in a friend's Wywires Silver cable and thought it was pretty bad in comparison. I'd be willing to bet that Shindo cables won't sound great in other gear.
-
. . . I think this debate seems to always end the same where some people appreciate what particular cables can do while others will resent the fact that people can distinguish one from another.
I seem to have struck a nerve here. Claims have been made in this thread, and I asked some questions about them. That's all.
If component A sounds better than component B to your ears and brain, then it does, to you, and it's nobody else's business. But if you make claims on a public forum, you shouldn't get touchy if someone asks for a little explanation.
-
I just need some help understanding how a cable is specifically designed for a specific amp. It seems to me that a cable can't see a difference between an audio signal from a tube and an audio signal from a transistor.
You won't find a technical explanation regarding cables. Sort of like tubes -- there's no technical explanation for preferring one tube brand over the other. Audio is very subjective, and all cables change the character of the music, sometimes in a very subtle manner and sometimes quite dramatically. Such dramatic changes make cables just as important as components. Some can hear the differences among cable changes, while others cannot. Likewise, some people can hear the differences in amps, while others cannot.
-
. . . Some can hear the differences among cable changes, while others cannot. Likewise, some people can hear the differences in amps, while others cannot.
I hear a difference almost every time I change cables or amps. Usually the new one sounds better. Sometimes the same set up sounds better or worse depending on my mood or physical state. I would just like to know if it's entirely in my head (nothing wrong with that) or if there is some way of measuring these things objectively.
If it's entirely in my head and subjective, how it sounds to someone else seems irrelevant to a buying decision. These are just testimonials. Interesting, but irrelevant if I am thinking of buying it.
I am not picking on Daedalus. I have never heard their speakers or cables.
-
Well, believe I'm on my way to getting some WyWire P's thanks to you all. I have active speakers so the IC from preamp to speaker has to be pretty long. Have to get their phono cable, too, I suppose. Think I'll start with the IC's and see what happens. Will talk to them soon about the cost. I wonder if they re-sell customer trade-in's but, then again, probably no one has or had my need for a lengthy one.
-
I seem to have struck a nerve here. Claims have been made in this thread, and I asked some questions about them. That's all.
If component A sounds better than component B to your ears and brain, then it does, to you, and it's nobody else's business. But if you make claims on a public forum, you shouldn't get touchy if someone asks for a little explanation.
No, no nerve with me. I wasn't aiming my comment at you. I've just read too many threads with topics like this where it just goes back and forth.
-
No, no nerve with me. I wasn't aiming my comment at you. I've just read too many threads with topics like this where it just goes back and forth.
Why tommy2tone, whatevah do you mean?
"Yes they do."
"No they don't."
Yes they DO!"
"No they DON'T!"
"YES THEY DO!!"
"NO THEY DON'T!!"
And that settles it! :D
-
No, no nerve with me. I wasn't aiming my comment at you. I've just read too many threads with topics like this where it just goes back and forth.
yep and the next thread will be, "Does vinyl really sound better than digital?". After that ... " Is there really a difference between two SS amps that "spec" the same?" and on and on, it isn't just cables :icon_lol: but it doesn't have to just be a schoolyard argument, already there have been several good points made in this thread.
Coyles comment about "subjective" is a good one, and that is why double blind testing is useful. The funny thing about most high end audio is that for most purposes our ears are the best test equipment. We ship our systems three states away for testing in one of the best labs in the country but still the final evaluation is the ear.
I have always felt it important to get input from other 'ears', yes we are each unique but often when we only rely on our own ears we end up in our heads and that is very subjective and fickle.
In the early '90's when developing my first acoustic instrument speaker I had the good fortune of the amazing guitarist Martin Simpson living in town. His 'ears' were crucial to developing those speakers, yep the best test gear I could have had. :)
thanks,
lou