Kismet vs Extreme

aaron.luebke · « **on:** 17 Nov 2010, 02:03 am »

I've managed to acquire two Stratos amps this year. One was advertised as a Kismet in Stratos case on Audiogon and I have no reason to doubt that. The other is an Extreme that Klaus just put together for me.

The Kismet is a dual mono, the Extreme single board, dual transfomers. Both have the new Groneberg wiring in them, both have black boards, both the full compliment of caps. I run a Candela preamp.

I think (and my ears are not benchmark material but they work for me!) that the Extreme sounds better - sweeter. The Kismet is almost too analytical in my system. In spite of it's dual board and extra Kismet magic it's loosing to the Extreme.

What the heck? Has anyone else compared these?

Just confused...

Edit - The Kismet'ed Stratos is up on Audiogon. I can't keep them both so one must go. Momma needs new shoes and Christmas is coming!

Edit - The Kismet'ed Stratos is not on Audiogon anymore. - if the Boss says bias...bias it must be!

BobC · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 12:53 pm »

As a happy owner of Stratos Mono Extremes, I'd like to know this as well.

This circle has been pretty quiet. And any discussion I see seems to focus on the Khartagos. Leads me to wonder just how many Kismet owners are out there?

I've been wondering, IF I have the requisite upgrade money, would I pull the trigger or spend the money elsewhere? Is the "improvement" so subtle that some question the difference? ...just wondering.

C'mon guys, speak up. (objective opinions please)

aaron.luebke · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 01:25 pm »

Please don't think I'm complaining about the sound from the Kismet'd version - it spanked the Khartago monoblocks I was running before I purchased that amp and I was perfectly happy with the Kismet sound...until the Extreme arrived.

aaron.luebke · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 02:26 pm »

Would someone go wake up Nicholas Bedworth

...I think he's been through both versions??

BobC · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 02:30 pm »

Yah, paging Mr. Bedworth! Would love a 6Moons review of Kismet Monos vs Stratos Extreme Monos vs some other big name amps.

klaus@odyssey · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 11:07 pm »

Actually quite simple here.

Aaron's stereo Extreme is a special unit that I made for him. While never exactly the Kismet standard, it's close, and I tweaked it for him.
With the Kismet monos, it could very well be that the amps have been especially biased for the first customer.
A quick and FREE check-up and rebias will do the trick, big time.

Now, as for our Kismet business, originally I was planning and hoping for 2-3 units per month, since this amp is unbelievably time consuming and expensive to make. Well, that was wishful thinking in terms of limiting sales. We now have appr. a dozen international partners, and they are selling wayyyy too many Kismet amps, and yes, the word of mouth, and especially upgrades from Extreme owners are very steady the last year here in the US as well. So, reality is that apart from the fact that I don't have time to finish up the web site, it is not really a bad thing that the Kismet option there doesn't work. However, yes, I'll got to get over to Dr. Photo and have some shots done for finishing up this section. In addition, we plan to have dozens of pics for the different steps in the production process, because it is special.

Late,

Klaus

catastrofe · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Nov 2010, 12:41 am »

I would love some information about the Kismet series, in particular the preamp. I might be in the market soon.

aaron.luebke · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Nov 2010, 01:59 am »

Wow...I have always thought of my Odyssey units as special but Klaus obviously outdid himself on that Extreme!

I've pulled the Kismet'd Stratos off of Audiogon and after the holidays I'll ship it back to Klaus for bias adjustment. I participate in other forums and posted this same question there - also heard from there that the bias might be the reason for the difference. I've always been a bit thick headed

but when two folks that I highly regard tell me to have it rebiased...I'd best be following directions!

I'll try and repost next year when it returns and I've had a chance to reevaluate.

Klaus, thank you!

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 05:10 pm »

Yikes! Didin't know I was so popular. In an emergency, just ask Klaus to call me. Sounds like the bias levels on the Kismet should adjusted. They will make the difference between analytical and lush.

A 6000+ word review on the Kismet monoblocks will be published in a couple of days over at www.6moons.com, and a copy will be uploaded here.

BobC · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Dec 2010, 05:28 pm »

Sweet!

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Dec 2010, 06:11 pm »

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/odyssey2/1.html

Review is live... thank Peter at www.odysseyaudio.nl for all the pictures of the new Kismet case.

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Dec 2010, 06:13 pm »

@aaron... you can rebias the amps yourself, assuming you can use a cheap voltmeter. Secret instructions are included in the review.

aaron.luebke · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Dec 2010, 08:03 pm »

Good review! Very cool pictures.

Not Worthy!!

I've biased other amps - but with directions.

I have the equipment!

Thanks! Saved me a pile of $$ in shipping.

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Dec 2010, 08:46 pm »

The bias level pots are the ones near the big central caps; the offset pots are by the leads going to the LEDs. I didn't want to put all this in the review because it seemed too much like an instruction manual.

djbnh · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Dec 2010, 11:50 pm »

Heck of a nicely written review says this Extreme Mono owner.

Seems like it's been a while since the Lorelei speakers were reviewed in 6moons, and I'm glad to read that e-zine revisited Odyssey for another turn. It's wonderful to know Klaus' company and colleagues are getting the accolades they deserve. I would have liked to read how the amp played with different preamps, but the only other downside for me was the stirring of that upgrade bug...

satfrat · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Dec 2010, 12:00 am »

Quote from: djbnh on 3 Dec 2010, 11:50 pm

Heck of a nicely written review says this Extreme Mono owner.

Seems like it's been a while since the Lorelei speakers were reviewed in 6moons, and I'm glad to read that e-zine revisited Odyssey for another turn. It's wonderful to know Klaus' company and colleagues are getting the accolades they deserve. I would have liked to read how the amp played with different preamps, but the only other downside for me was the stirring of that upgrade bug...

I'm currently enjoying my 4 Lorelei's even more now than I did 7 years ago so it's always nice to read a glowing review for Klaus's products.

Cheers,
Robin

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Dec 2010, 12:25 am »

@djbnh... no preamp involved. Bit-perfect data from the audio server goes to the Audiophilleo www.audiophilleo.com bitstream processor, S/PDIF to the DAC, DAC to the amps... all done!

BobC · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Dec 2010, 02:20 am »

Thank you, Nicholas. Very detailed and well written.

Question: you list a few comparably priced amps to consider in comparison. (Krell, Rogue I think) Did you compare these? Your impressions? I'm not in a position to audition these as you suggest.

I'll never be able to afford Soulution, etc, but may someday (soon?) be able to throw a few k at my system. So would I be better off upgrading my existing Mono Extremes, or sell them and spend all the money on a Krell? Or what about an integrated?

I suspect I know the answer (as a happy Odyssey owner)...but I'd really like to hear it from a pro like you, e.g. compared head to head with (insert name here) and the Odyssey wins in the following areas.

Also your thoughts comparing the Kismet monos versus some of the new digital amps out there?

Thanks again! Bob

Nicholas Bedworth · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Dec 2010, 06:28 am »

The comparison amps were hard to find, there's not too much in monoblocks at this price-point.

The PrimaLuna design is well-known to me, and it's really very good indeed, but of course (relatively) low-power tubes may or may not work sell on the Sashas. Some have gotten good results. The Krell was in the TAS buyers guide, and the Rogue was recommended by a colleague. The Bel Canto 500 W monoblocks are similar in price, I believe. They're Class D and well liked by many.

My expertise is more on the digital side of things, such as DACs and digital sources. However, several colleagues who have heard my system agree that the characterization of the Kismets is accurate. We also believe that some of the slight soundstaging limitations may in fact relate more to the DAC, and we're looking into alternate models right now.

Depending on where you live, a cooperative dealer should be able to let you try various amps out. And of course a whole lot depends upon your speakers.

My general opinion is that for $5-10K, you can get terrific amplification. Even the superb Spectral 360 is something like $17K. The best Brystons are similar. There's a diminishing return, one suspects. Keep in mind the Jon Valin's overall system must be way, way into 6 figures and thus amps such as the Soulution go with that territory.

It could be a very long time before you run up against the shortcomings of a $10K set of amps, if in fact there are any :)Money over that might better spent on upgrading cables (the AudioQuest Wild Woods are wonderful), speakers or a better DAC (if you use them).

djbnh · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Dec 2010, 12:40 pm »

Quote from: Nicholas Bedworth on 4 Dec 2010, 12:25 am

@djbnh... no preamp involved. Bit-perfect data from the audio server goes to the Audiophilleo www.audiophilleo.com bitstream processor, S/PDIF to the DAC, DAC to the amps... all done!

Yes, I understood from the article that your system did not use a preamp. (My wish was formed based upon my own use of a preamp re: vinyl, other sources.) Again, thank you for a wonderful read; looking forward to your next review.