AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Aspen Amplifiers => Topic started by: Afterimage on 23 Dec 2010, 06:03 pm
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Hugh felt his new design, The Maya with zero global feedback, was a game changer. I must say I agree, for me at least. Now I have not heard everything, but I have plenty of experience with various amps. With that said, I have never heard 20 thousand dollar plus mono blocks or anything up from that. But after hearing the Maya, I just don't see the need as I am not wanting for more than what I am currently hearing. Nothing has lit up my highley regarded Tidal Piano loudspeakers like the Maya. Frequency extension is second to none, especially the top end as I have never heard better. Overall the amp is very organic or natural sounding. Areas such as tone, imaging, depth, spacing and air are stellar. Most of all the amp is extemely engaging. So much so that I listened for pretty much 8.5 hours straight. I would not call it the honeymoon period either, no way. What it is, is just a sensational sounding amp that is impossible to get board with. What more needs to be said?
So a big thank you and congrats to Hugh for creating the design and Colin Brown for his efforts on this amp as well.
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Kieran,
A thousand thanks to you! This is very nice..... :thankyou:
I am deeply impressed by people who take calculated risks with their purchases. It is, as we all know, a huge risk to buy across the internet, lots of sheisters, lots of poor products, and so when people indicate their willingness to take these risks with Aspen, I'm very grateful and blown away by the leap of faith. I'm OK at communication, and keep people informed every step of the way, but there are inevitably delays, and people are very nice about it. I'm half engineer, half craftsman, half salesman, half equipment packager, and do many of these tasks slowly and poorly, but the amp design, the build quality, and the sound quality is, I feel, up there with the best in the world.
Thank you Kieran, I do feel the Maya is a game changer, and I also feel that it will last a long, long time and drive any speaker you connect to it brilliantly. The interesting thing is that this amplifier, while unconventional in the extreme, is simple, with relatively low component count. But it takes account of the way human beings listen to music, and addresses these issues at least as much as the raw engineering. And it's refined over a huge period of time - thank you Colin - this refinement really shows.
A Merry Christmas to you and your family Kieran, and to other Aspen customers, let's all hope the ghost of the GFC is banished soon by the sunshine of 2011!
Cheers,
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh. Oh another plus with this amp I forgot to mention is it's size. It is relatively small and lighter wt, user friendly and rack friendly. A lot higher performing higher watt solid state amps are huge and heavy.
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Hi Kieran,
Congratulations. Great choice - a really lovely sounding amp. It's the only one that one day might seduce me away from my superb Soraya.
Glad you got it in time for Christmas as last time I popped in to see Hugh he was agonising over finishing your amp ASAP whilst at the same time double checking everything to ensure it was perfect before despatch. I'm sure glad I didn't hold him up or I wouldn't be writing this and would be well and truly in hiding. :oops:
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Hugh,
Congratulations! I eagerly await my own Maya. Till then, I'll have to make do with my lovely original Soraya (now called the Lifeforce 100). I'm building one of your Naksa 70 kits for one of your customers simply because I want to hear the dang thing. What I've found with your amps is that one thinks they've a true 'state of the art' amp, and they are, but your next iteration always yields a major improvement. You simply don't know what you've been missing until you hear it.
I've heard many of the various darlings of AudioCircle, and compared to your amps, I simply don't understand the hubbub. My theory is that your customers tend to be older, having lived with many an amp, and instantly recognizing a product we can live with, they simply do so. We old farts simply don't have the youthful vigor to function consistently as vociferous fanboys advocates.
Your incorporation of rigorous simulations into your development process has allowed you to rapidly iterate and hone your designs. [and you're far too generous with your knowledge over on that more technically oriented board] Only after you're satisfied with the technical performance (albeit a non-material model) do you (or a cohort) build, investigate and optimize the design. As I said above, IMO, your amps are truly 'state of the art'. Cutting edge measurable performance is straightforward, certainly not trivial, but I know for a fact you choose not to shoot for Halcro like performance, although you could, but rather do a careful balance between the objective and subjective, making your product truly 'state of the art'.
FWIW,
Paul
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I've heard many of the various darlings of AudioCircle, and compared to your amps, I simply don't understand the hubbub. My theory is that your customers tend to be older, having lived with many an amp, and instantly recognizing a product we can live with, they simply do so. We old farts simply don't have the youthful vigor to function consistently as vociferous fanboys advocates.
Paul,
FWIW I completely agree with you. As I've tried to convey in another thread, all of the Aspen amps are superb and nail the fundamentals but with some subtle nuances and flavours (and value) that differentiate them. To my mind, the Naksa, Maya and Soraya are all well clear of the opposition sonically to the point that though I may have chosen one, I would happily live with any of them (rather than anything else) in my system.
I think that Hugh, having 3 strings to his bow to work with, is an advantage to us all in that I know that improvements during the development of one model often lead to improvements in the other lines downstream. Mostly subtle improvements to be sure as as basics are rock solid on day one as I'm certain he doesn't release an amp till he's completely happy - but of course that doesn't stop him developing a new 'iteration' of outside the square thinking.
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Thank You Kieran, it is this which makes the long haul and over a year in the making all worthwhile. Every time i thought it was done over the year i felt further need for refinement, and must thank yourself and Hugh, especially for putting up with my persistent emailing with changes and revised engineering ideas... There is something special about the Zero Global sound, its effortless, but admitttedly does take ALOT of work to get right, hence why its not more often used, as it does have the potential to go south without diligent care in dimensioning. This is my favorite \aspen amp, but however my opinion has a certain bias to it as a labour of love too, but to hear that you really like the Maya makes this obsession all worthwhile along with a great working partnership with Hugh... This an exciting time for me in Audio, the designs are becoming much less conventional but most importantly musical!.
Have a great Merry Christmas and a fabulous New Year! with lots more musical enjoyment into 2011.
Colin
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I think it's emerging to all subscribers just how much Colin and I work together as a team. This amp owes a huge amount to Colin's fastidious tuning, something that has occupied us both ever since the ideas behind the Maya were first penned almost two years ago.
Kieran, keep listening, see if you can trip up this new amp!!
A very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all AC denizens and Aspen mavens. Thank you for your support through 2010, let's see if 2011 can't be even more exciting!
Cheers,
Hugh
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I think it's emerging to all subscribers just how much Colin and I work together as a team. This amp owes a huge amount to Colin's fastidious tuning, something that has occupied us both ever since the ideas behind the Maya were first penned almost two years ago.
Kieran, keep listening, see if you can trip up this new amp!!
A very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all AC denizens and Aspen mavens. Thank you for your support through 2010, let's see if 2011 can't be even more exciting!
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi Hugh. What do you mean by trip up this new amp?
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Hi Hugh. What do you mean by trip up this new amp?
My guess would be "find something it doesn't do exceedingly well".
Did I miss the price somewhere?
Thanks,
Lin
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Find something is doesn't do well? Other than the first night I received it, I have only been able to listen for a couple of hours. My in-laws are here so I can't really get away and get to know it more. But...and it is early so the jury is still out, I'm not sure how it does with my big collection of some of the poorly recorded pop/rock recordings. I think a HUGE part of audio is the recording it's self. From my experience, those type of recordings sound okay to good on headphones, cars, and boom boxes and it is more of a challenge to get some life, air, and weight on those type of recordings with higher end stuff. I will say this for sure, on decent to great production/recordings, and that is pretty much I all have played so far, this amp is an absolute champion.
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You left out "exceedingly". :wink:
Lin
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HI Kieran,
Lin is right..... something it doesn't do well, or even exceedingly well if you want to overstate it!!
Essentially, an open challenge.
Ah, Christmas, what a wonderful time to be with family members whom you don't see that much.
Hugh
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Okay, you asked for it. I just played some ABBA and Blondie. Kind of lacking some heft, a little thin sounding. Conversely, I also played The National's critically acclaimed album, High Violet and it was hauntingly good, some of the best music I have ever heard. I wonder if this is the kind of amp that is more of pass through component and exposes whatever is in front, including not so good recordings?
I swapped speakers, put in the Mark and Daniel Ruby bookshelves. The Maya appears to be a better match with the Ruby's. Here is the thing though. The Ruby's are bookshelves(and A LOT cheaper than the Tidals) so they are a lot smaller than the Tidals, which may be a better fit for my room. I'm not sure I have the Tidals set up optimally as they are big, weigh 115 lbs each and are not easy for me to move around to find the right positioning. Tomorrow I am going to do a direct comparison between the Maya and the ModWright KWA 150. I will use the Mark and Daniel Ruby's so I can be sure the manage the room variables better. I also Have a Rel Sub in the corner that is hooked into the Maya.
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Well, I rolled up my sleeves and went to work today. Swapped amps, speakers, ect...Man, it is pain the butt doing all that, but I was curious to find the optimal setup and I wanted to put the Maya through it's paces. I replayed Blondie and Abba again through both the M&D Rubies and the Tidals. Don't ask me why, I can't pin point it, but they sounded much better today. Sounds kooky I know. Today I also played The Ramones, Concrete Blonde, Iggy Pop, Australia's The Church, and the Minneapolis post punk power pop trio Husker Du. Most of these recordings are not so good, especially Husker Du (great music and melodies though). After it was all said and done, everything sounded really good. I played everything between 75 and 85 decibels. So as you can see I did not play really loud. I prefer my music to sound good at moderate volumes instead of feeling the need to blast everything to sound good. Again, the Maya did well here, playing poorly recorded rock at moderate volumes. As I said earlier, with good recordings there is no worries. But with rock and pop genre, the choice is to go with usual recommendations of JBL, Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, or Infinity ect...all of which I never really considered or investigated or heard as I wanted more of a refined resolving sound. I didn't want a system that could just play loud with without breakup, I feel there is more to the sound than that.
As for the Maya vs the ModWright, both are really really good. The ModWright might have more depth in the soundstage, but falls a little short on frequency extension and pace. Either way, I am not comfortable with the ModWright because of the impedance mismatch with my Herron Preamp. Now my next project is to lay some cardboard down and work on Master Set, who knows things may get even better.
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Kieran,
This is really good stuff; you are really getting down and dirty with amps/speaker/music. My thanks.
My thoughts are the Maya prefers a speaker with high acoustic damping. The reason is that the output stage runs open loop, and damping factor is around 40, not the >200 that many amps run because they use lashes of global feedback. This means that high sensitivity speakers which have strong internal damping and sound very good on tube amps are preferred. However, the payoff is that bass decay is longer, and this gives a hauntingly good delivery, particularly on quiet but deep notes.
My preference would also be for transmission lines, because they have much better bass quality, quite different to the 'one note' presentation you often hear with reflex enclosures.
I've just driven 300 miles, a bit tired, I will revisit this Kieran, but I think this explains what you are hearing.
Master set is indeed worth the effort, but it's tiring, exacting work.
What we strove for with the Maya was musical engagement. Almost everything is focussed on this quality; the idea is to make you tap your feet, smile, and 'feel' the performance. Did it work effectively in this area?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Last night I noticed something. Through all of the switching and swapping earlier in the day, I noticed when I moved the Tidals back into the system, there were imprints in the carpet about 4 or 5 inches forward from where I repositioned them. So I pretty sure repositioning back a few inches to the back wall brought out more bass, which in turn effected everything else in a positive way. More heft, more coherency and balance. I notice the change most of all on my poorly recorded albums. So in essence, I made a blanket statement above on the Maya sounding thin on bad recordings. The truth is my room in the basement sucks. I can throw down the same components and speakers in my bedroom system and piss the wrong way and still make them sound good because I have great acoustics up there. Trouble is with a wife and family, can't really use it to often. Watch a lot of tv and movies up there though. So with my basement, I make due. Despite that, I have a great sounding system in my basement, it just takes more work to make it so. If I had to rate what effects sound the most, I would say room first, then the recording, then the speakers and components and cabling from there. Some may disagree, but that is my experience. As for the Maya, as I said before it is a sensational amp and one will get the most from it by getting everything else in the chain in as good of working order as possible. I'm sure Hugh can agree as things got better for him after working on the Master Set. Tonight, more work. Master Set, although I don't know if I want to mess with things as it sounds really good as it is.
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Hi Kieran,
Ive just read with great fascination your experimenting with the Maya, this is great stuff. Funny you mention the cheaper speaker's, as I had also did much work sizing the Maya up with just an average set of bookshelfers PSB Image, and later work with the Martin Logan "Source" ESL hybrids. To me this offered a wide range to voice in, and this amplifier does astonishingly well driving electrostatics since there is no global feedback. I did notice that it wont make bad recordings better, but it also wont highlight the nasties instead presenting it naturally. Having a good preamp is a benefit, since the Maya will expose the best of the preamp, along with any bad, but its very very important how the small signal starts out before it's passed through 30db of gain, make this the best it can be and the Maya will deliver glorious sonics... Speaker setup/room setup is definately important with boxed speakers since their sound is not that directional and tend to influence alot of waves from the side and rear walls, this is a benefit ive noticed with ESL's, much less room influence, though at the expense of a smaller sweet spot, but man, once your in the sweet spot, its like heaven!!..
Colin
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On recording quality in relation to Hifi systems. Most Hifi or audiophile type systems make good recordings sound outstanding. However, in relative terms, with the Maya/Tidal combo it is exponentially so. This is what is amazing, a real hair raising experience. Conversely, I don't expect my system to make bad recordings sound as good or mask the sins. I know you can't put lipstick on a pig. But, that doesn't mean we can't expect to enjoy the music anyway. So many audiophiles make the mistake of cherry picking and only using good recordings when evaluating systems and components. Most of us have huge collections and if you are going to cherry pick, then you are doing yourself a disservice. So I wanted to find a system that presents the bad stuff with some life, air, spacing, inner detail and some wt. Again, I realize it will never sound out of this world, but in relative terms it would at least make music out them. Otherwise, I should just sell off my stuff and get a good boombox or a pair of ipod earbuds. :icon_lol:
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Colin,
Kieran is thrilled with our creation, ain't that fabulous!! I think when people realise that this amp was actually voiced with Martin Logans, the interest will really pick up. There are very few amps can handle those babies, truth is, an amp suitable for driving highly capacitive loads needs to be overbuilt, and this usually makes them sound like arc welders on music. Because of the Maya's unusual topology it can do this easily and still concentrate on music making which I believe puts them up there with the powerful Ayre amplifier from Charles Hansen, in Colorado.
Kieran,
I love your approach, because it's balanced, lipstick on a pig indeed, and takes account of the stuff we all play. I have a Virgin CD of Ennio Morricone, 'The Mission', CDV 2402 from 1986, probably out of production now. It is a dreadful recording, but the music is outstanding. How often does this happen? I always try this track, Gabriel's Oboe, to see how it sounds. It has to move me, convey the essence of the oboe, through all the lousy sound engineering. If yes, then the player, amp and speaker are doing their jobs. The track is nicely representative of that popular genre, 'Great Music, Lousy Recording'.
Hugh
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oag1Dfa1e_E&feature=related
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Hugh,
You've got mail :thumb:
Colin
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Thanks Chris,
Very moving piece, beautifully conducted by the Master, much appreciated.
Here's the brilliant oboist, the young woman, this shot during the flute solo:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=40735)
Cheers,
Hugh
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Kieran,
Thank you for your impressions on the new Maya amp. I can't wait to read how it will perform on the VsonicII. What i also would like to know is how close it comes to the sonic character a single ended tube amp's like a 300B. It's a big promise that the Maya has no global feedback like most SE tube amp's. I now use a LF100 amp driving VsonicII's, which goes in the direction to SE sound, but it can be better. The Maya could properly be a step forward. Do you have an impression on this?
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Hi Hybride. Sorry man, I don't have any experiences with single ended tube amps. I have had tube integrateds like the Cayin ATK88 (I put Tung Sol 6650s in though). I'm done with tube amps, to much of a pain. I use a tube preamp though. So, when are you expecting your Maya? My prediction is you will love it with your speakers. I mean the evidence is there as there was a standing ovation at that event with the an ealier version of the Maya paired with the V-Sonics. I guess the room acoustics were not theat great either.
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The new Maya must be something special. i heard many amp's at home in the past, tube amps (PP&SE), class A, AB amps to modern Class D like Hypex and Tripath. The LF100 was my first Aspen amp and i loved it right from the start. I heard a NAKSA 70 too. While it was in some aspects better then the LF100, i preferred the sonic cream of the LF100. The Maya could maybe a next step up. I am also done with tube amps because of weak power, distortions and noise/hum issues, but a good SE tube amp is, as far as i experienced, still unbeaten in the mid/trebles area. Maybe a solid state amp will never reach that level? who knows.. Low or no global feedback is an important key i learned. Phase correctness is a major issue. I play with a ECdesign TDA1541DAC module, which is designed to be 100% phase correct. The sonic result is stunning. The philosophy of the Maya seems in line with this principle. The damping factor can be an issue, but as far that i understand bass control is good with the Maya?
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Thanks Kieran,
You raise good points.... tube amps are a PITA, and I know one guy had a very expensive AR with 8 x 6550 tubes. He was a professional photographer, very meticulous fellow, and finally he became so fed up with buying matched tubes and replacing them every couple of years for best performance that he sold it, disillusioned, and bought a Bel Canto. That lasted about a month, don't actually know what he has now, but the frustrations he experienced were palpable.
Hans,
The SE tube sound is unique, and to me at least, a benchmark I cannot ignore. But I have to say that the only amp I build that comes close to the SE sound is the NAKSA series, and even the NAKSA is very low distortion. The Maya is different again. It has a purity, and natural presentation, which is subtly different to most other amps. It is the only amp I've ever heard which promotes intimacy and realism without actually coloring the music like a tube amp. There is no obvious coloration at all with the Maya - Kieran, do you agree with this? - it simply presents the music as it really is, and engages with authenticity and intimacy rather than with coloration and bloom. The evidence is the breakout of toe tapping and head bobbing that I experienced whenever I play the Maya. That said, I in no way criticize the single ended triode; I love 'em, particularly on simpler music. But they are not the optimal choice on complex orchestral, trance or rock music.
These sorts of arguments go on forever, and are a matter of taste. You don't see people arguing the merits of gorganzola over camembert, but you do see people arguing over tubes v. SS and it's silly. It is taste, and preference, pure and simple, and the fact the market for so many amp types and styles persists after fifty year is clear evidence that not everyone likes the same thing.
I hear comparatives like 'better sound' uttered again and again. There are instances where it's true, particularly in the development of a specific topology as its refined over time, but mostly it's just 'different'. And there is no denying that rigorous engineering people will generally prefer a 'low distortion sound', without much regard for GEB notions of 'how it sounds', simply because it abides by their idea of a straight wire with gain. That's fine too!!
I gotta rush, will return to this dialogue later today...... off to see Steve in Ballarat!
Cheers,
Hugh
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My wife likes blue cheese, brrr, i run away only from it's smell! :o But serious, like you mention amp's sonic character and capabilities are distinctive by there design topology and level of finetuning. (N)AKSA, LF(55/100), Soraya or MAYA are all unique performers in there own way. Level of feedback, power, damping and level of H2,H3 harmonic distortion each indicates certain properties. imo it's useful to understand these aspects for customers. Is it wrong thinking that the new Maya will become most close to single ended topology because of it's zero global feedback?
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Yes Hugh, there is no colorations and indeed the amp is a real toe tapper. You do it without even realizing it because it is so consistent. Meaning all music is involving, it is not just set aside for random special circumstances. I don't think colorations are bad though, sometimes that is darn enjoyable too.
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I also want to add I have tried the amp on three separate speakers and it performs brilliantly with all three different designs. I'm bringing a 4rth speaker in a couple of weeks to try. Yeah, I am one of those crazy audiophiles. :D
Also, I already told Hugh this, but I disconnected my sub. It is simply not needed. My main speakers, the Tidal Piano's sound better without the sub with the Maya hooked up.