IB2 passive v active

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pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« on: 1 May 2005, 10:05 am »
Thinking of either going active or passive on the IB2. Which is superior:

1. Pair of 7sst or 14sst passive
2. six channel 'powerpacs' with sperate bryston x-over

Im thinking the larger amps must be supeior. However, the active arrangement must be superior in the other option. Will both of these options therefore end up sounding very similar?

Will be listening to both soon, but I appreciate any feedback.


(Seperate question, do you guys like the way atc active 50's sound as well?)

James Tanner

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #1 on: 1 May 2005, 07:59 pm »
HI There,

There is no "Active" IB2 with PMC/Bryston 10B Crossover.
You have to get into the MB2 or BB5 before that arrangement becomes possible.

james

pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #2 on: 2 May 2005, 01:45 pm »
Really?!

In that case, how do you guys rate a passive IB2 compared to fully active ATC50?

Thanks

James Tanner

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #3 on: 2 May 2005, 01:55 pm »
Better

pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #4 on: 2 May 2005, 03:53 pm »
Im going to listen to both soon at cornflake and buy of of them. I would use either a 14 or pair of 7sst's with the IB2.

It what way could I expect the pmc to excell? I suspect the highs must be similar to an extent, due to very similar mid & treble units. I would guess the pmc's may go deeper. But surely the active option would give greater clarity?

Please elaborate for me, thanks....

nicolasb

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #5 on: 3 May 2005, 08:54 am »
Quote
Im going to listen to both soon at cornflake

Cornflake is a very nice shop indeed - knowledgeable, friendly and helpful. Just don't mention my name in there.  :mrgreen:

pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #6 on: 3 May 2005, 11:51 am »
I'm sure they are very helpful, when it comes to removing your cash. I will be buying the speakers over 2k cheaper elsewhere however.

James Tanner

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« Reply #7 on: 3 May 2005, 12:10 pm »
You know thats what's wrong with this industry - one day high end dealers and companies they support will disappear.

james

nicolasb

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« Reply #8 on: 3 May 2005, 01:48 pm »
Quote from: pauldixonuk
I'm sure they are very helpful, when it comes to removing your cash. I will be buying the speakers over 2k cheaper elsewhere however.
Quote from: James Tanner
You know thats what's wrong with this industry - one day high end dealers and companies they support will disappear.

The dealers will dissappear because they're offering their wares at a price that's so high no one wants to pay it, you mean? I'm not a big fan of unfettered capitalism, but, even so, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

If high-end AV stores want to be able to compete with internet box-shifters then they have to make it clear that they are actually offering something the box-shifters aren't: expertise, installations, etc. The problem is that, in my experience, roughly 80% of AV dealers know even less about AV than I do, and, God knows, I am certainly no expert. So for practical purposes they don't offer anything over and above what the box-shifters give you. Why, therefore, should they get away with charging more?

There are some honourable exceptions, the Cornflake Shop (in London, England) being one of them. But the solution is easy enough: all they have to do is offer the actual goods for sale at the same price as the 'Net vendors, and charge customers a couple of hundred pounds for a demonstration (perhaps with some arrangement where the price of the demo is refunded if you do actually go on to buy something you're demoing).

Of course, Cornflake is one of the very few AV stores I've been to where a demo is actually useful enough that I wouldn't necessarily mind paying for it. In most other stores it isn't, and I would.

As for the AV manufacturers going out of business because the "high-end" stores are losing custom, I really don't follow that at all. If your product is better than anybody else's (or as good as anyone else's and cheaper) then people are going to buy it. What do you care who is selling it to them? Maybe you shouldn't be restricting yourself to selling only via "high end" dealers in the first place. Or maybe you should sell direct like the SV Subwoofers guys.

James Tanner

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« Reply #9 on: 3 May 2005, 02:00 pm »
Well all I know is that many of the hi-end dealers in North America are disappearing and being replaced with order-takers.
I do not see it as an AV issue - I see it as an industry that is 'feature' driven rather than 'performance' driven.

james

dan_lo

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #10 on: 3 May 2005, 05:42 pm »
James,
Would you care to elaborate on this issue?

This seems to me like a major problem.
 I encountered this dillema myself - I think cornflake is a great hifi dealer, and this is worth an extra %10-15 price difference to me, but what am I supposed to do if someone is offering the same goods at about %30 less ?

James Tanner

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« Reply #11 on: 3 May 2005, 06:19 pm »
I guess you have to go with what's best for you.
It is just that the dealers that have no investment in time, knowledge or money with a given product are eventually going to destroy those dealers and companies that do.
I think what I object to the most is wasting a dealers time and investment and then end running him.


james

pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #12 on: 3 May 2005, 06:34 pm »
I would happily pay a small premium - say 400 quid extra for taking up two hours of their morning. However I wont pay 2.4k extra. Not unless they have half a dozen lap dancers oiling themselves up throughout the demo, then come home to instal them.

I can buy pro ATC's from one of the uk's leading studio installers (NOT a box shifter!) for 2.5k less than the shops as well. Hence, I won't pay too far over the odds for the PMC equivalents.

Alternatively, you can get 6ish k equivalent PMC kits for 1.4k:

https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Prestige2_5.html

I have spent thousands over the years on hifi and feel like I've paid my fair share of high street shop rent. I also pay for my music, unlike a lot of people. If pro installers offer the same service then they will have to try and compete with them. Maybe they should move out of town to cheaper premises?

Anyway, maybe they will do a deal and we'll both compromise in the middle.

Would be nice to get as much feedback on what PMC's sound like!

nicolasb

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #13 on: 4 May 2005, 09:15 am »
It has to be said, I think people here in Britain are particularly prone to getting fed up with "high end" AV prices, simply because everything is so preposterously expensive in Britain.

To take a random example, a Lexicon MC12B processor (version 3) retails for $10,000 in the States. In Britain it costs £9000 - that's roughly $17,000. In-store discounts tend to be much higher in america too. And that's a comparatively modest example - we often end up paying a higher number of pounds than americans pay dollars. That being the case, you can hardly blame people if they decide to (for example) try and import a US model rather than buy an official UK one if that means they avoid a markup of anything up to 80 or 90%.

pauldixonuk

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IB2 passive v active
« Reply #14 on: 4 May 2005, 05:56 pm »
Indeed. We get a rather harsh time in the uk, over the price of pretty much everything.

Eric

IB2 passive v active
« Reply #15 on: 4 May 2005, 07:30 pm »
I think it would be great if Bryston went to a direct model of doing business and passed the savings onto customers

pauldixonuk

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ATC100 active V PMC IB2 passive
« Reply #16 on: 13 May 2005, 05:54 pm »
ATC100 active V PMC IB2 passive


Just spent the day listening to these wonderful speakers at Cornflake. It was my first visit there and I'm rather glad I made the trip. It's a tiny yellow shop in a quiet backstreet, just off totenham court road. The interior is rather lived in and has a very welcoming atmosphere. Scuffed walls, messy work benches, jeans and relaxed humour are the order of the day. Michael hosted the demo and proved to be very helpful throughout, even acting as my personal volume controller due to lack of remote! He's probably having an afternoon nap after lugging these massive speakers back and forth many times.

The system used was rather neutral to highlight the character difference of the speakers. We always used an Ayre D1X reference cd player (£6k), Bryston BP25 preamp (£2.5k), Bryston 4BSST power amp (£2.5k) for the passive PMC's, chord company odyssey cables. The listening room was roughly 18' square. One slight oddity with the room is that the bass output is reduced when seated close to the middle of the room. When you stand up the low end output rises markedly, and reduces as you sit back down. We tried various seating locations and ended up with our backs to the wall, placing us as far away from the front speakers as possible. This pretty much eliminated any problems, as the low end bass returned to normality. The music used refected my wide personal taste. We ran through particular tracks on nirvana - nevermind, phil collins - but seriously, prince - sign o the times, rolling stones - forty licks, madonna - ray of light, and the miles davis - so what.

First up were the PMC IB2's. These look great with light oak cabinets sporting slightly curved edges, with contrasting plain black drivers. Finish is rather good, but not exquiste, looking very purposeful. The cabinets are large and particuarly deep. They were positioned about a metre from the rear wall and slightly toed inwards. Upper drivers were positioned to the outside edge. The high and mid frequencies were very clear, smooth and totally natural. I couldn't really find anything to criticise here to be honest. I was happy to sit there soaking up the sound. The bass however was quite astonishing. I've never heard anything like it at all. The sheer low frequency volume, absolute extension and at the very same time exhibiting unreal control and range of tuneful notes, was simply breathtaking. Particuarly on track 6 and 10 on madonna's ray of light. I couldn't help turning the air blue, such was the shock. It made my RELQ400 sub sound like a slow, blurred, one note weakling. This is the only time I have ever heard high fidelity bass at proper high volume. The simultanious combination of such deep volume with sharp notes was a revelation. I laughed about it with Michael and sat there shaking my head in bewilderment. Truly a king of bass output AND control. Very shocking.

Next the ATC 100 active. This is an equally large brute. Styling is far boxier and very plain. Not such a nice object to have in your lounge really. They were positioned about a metre from the rear wall and slightly toed inwards. Upper drivers were positioned to the outside edge. As soon as the same songs came on it was clear the ATC's have superior upper frequencies. They are just slightly more open, detailed, airy and effortless around the voices. The music seemed to hang in the air with a very wide sound stage. The PMC's seemed slightly more closed in and only focused upon the centre spot. Although my description makes it sound like a large difference in the two, in reality it was only 15% or so. The much larger difference was to be found at the lowest bass frequencies. The ATC's by comparison lacked the same extension, low end volume, and to a smaller degree absolute control and tightness. The ATC's bass was very good indeed, but the PMC's were frankly, stupidly, bloody awesome. Annoyed at this bass difference I had the ATC's moved closer to the rear wall, at around 40cm, to try and beef them up. Immediately the lower bass volume picked up, closing the gap a fraction. However, now the bass was slower and a bit messy, by comparison. In fact it now sounded like my REL at home, struggling to keep pace.

At this point we stopped for a chat. I asked Michael if he would mind cutting both pairs in half to make me a 'cut and shut' model, using the best of both. I really wanted the open presence of ATC's highs, with that unreal PMC bass. Alas nothing else could be done to improve the ATC's bottom end. So the only remaining solution was to try and improve the PMC's upper frequencies, to try and match that of the ATC's. I asked for the best equipment to be dragged into service, money no object. Something must surely improve the PMC's upper range presence a touch. We had a ton of kit at our disposal - Mark levinson, AVI, Naim, Bryston, Rega, etc. So I'm expecting some seriously pricey gear to be selected. But Michael suggests a tiny little gizmo called a Whest, looking like a dac, but it's not. It's just £1k worth of filter that works on an unbalanced in & output, slotted between the cd player and preamp. Now I think he's having a laugh, and I expect we're about to waste our time. Anyway, in it goes and we sit back for a listen.

The PMC IB2, using a Whest gizmo is in a different league altogether. All of a sudden the music pops out of the speakers and floats in the air. The sound stage is now just as wide as the ATC's, quite remarkably. I couldn't believe I was hearing such a difference. It was akin to using a valve preamp instead of a dull & flat solid state pre. How or why this Whest achieve's it, I don't know or care. Quite simply I need one and that's that. So is this new PMC setup a match for the awesome ATC high's? No. It still isn't quite as good, but we are now talking only a 2%ish gap, instead of the previous 15%. Now the differences are that small I can live with them to be honest.

In summary we have two awesome speakers, that excel in different areas. These are the finest two models I've ever had the pleasure to demo. I could happily live with either, and will recommend both to anyone who asks. However, to be fussy....

The ATC's are still unmatched for upper most clarity. These are the high fidelity supremo's in my experience, even if it's only by a tiny margin. However the PMC IB2's are truly amazing all round in the right setup. I can live with their tiny 2%ish dip in upper clarity for that tremendous bass experience. These PMC's are so much fun on rock, pop, and even on more sensible double bass, miles davis type tunes. For me personally I had more enoyment listening to the PMC's. However if you mostly listen to classical music then I would reccommend the ATC's as having the slight edge. As my music collection is mostly newer, louder, beat driven and not as sensible as many of you guys, I will be ordering some IB2's shortly. Now I just need to listen to some valve preamps with the IB2's to try and gain even more from the upper reigons. If I had the money and space for two rooms it would be nice to have both pairs, for different moods.

Remember there is no right and wrong. No speaker was better than another. It just so happened that I had more fun, in my mood at the time, with my music, in that particular room with the PMC's. I could feel differently in another mood or another room etc. You will have your own preference I'm sure.

Anyway I thoroughly recommend Cornflake. I WILL buy from these guys.

ABlakeG

IB2 passive v active
« Reply #17 on: 13 May 2005, 07:32 pm »
I would just like an oppourtunity to hear the IB2. I have called my local dealer, and they are a custom install guy. I was offered a chance to hear them at PMCs headquarters in LA, and I might have to do that, in order to justify paying $15,000 for the front three speakers in my theater. A displaying dealer would be great, considering I live in a metro area of 9 million people, a lot of whom have money to burn on 'hobbies.'

Blake