AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 13 May 2018, 07:00 pm

Title: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 May 2018, 07:00 pm
GR Research is a fairly small corporation and I spend my time among various aspects of the business. I do some design work, some assembly work, pack and fill orders, handle calls and e-mails, and all kinds of other things.

As I reflect upon my work and think about what it is that I really enjoy most (besides listening to music) it really comes back to the design work. I really enjoy the crossover design work and trying to take things to new levels. I strive on challenges. And trying to get the most out of a given design is very rewarding.

So for the month of June rest of the summer I am going to offer free crossover design services.

Here are the specifics.

You have to send me the speaker. You don't need to send me the pair unless I am also building them out. I need just one of them. No you can't just tell me what drivers you have and expect me to design something based on T/S parameters. I need them here in the box that you are using them in or that they were designed for. This can include various commercial designs that have fallen short of the mark. I design based on acoustic output of the drivers and the cabinet design (surface reflections) are part of the output. So I have to have a speaker here.

When I design a crossover for you then you have the rights to use it for your own enjoyment and not for commercial profit. If you are seeking design work for something that you intend to produce and sell that I am still glad to help you, but profiting on my design work (my intellectual property) will require an agreement prior to the work being done.

You will get a full set of measurements with the design showing you exactly how it performs.

You will buy your crossover parts from GR Research. I am not going to do the design work for free then hand you a schematic so you can source the parts elsewhere. Budget parts will be recommend for budget designs and higher end parts will be recommended for higher end designs. Options of types and prices of parts will be made available.

You must wire the drivers used in the design so that they can be driven externally. That means each driver has a pair of wires that are accessible even if you have to hang the wires out the port.

There may be a handling fee if you send me a large speaker for me to have to box and un-box.

And you pay shipping both ways. 

I can then provide you with the parts and a schematic so you can assemble them yourself, or I can provide assembled crossovers for you. I can even fully assemble the speakers for you. But only the design work is free.

No other company has ever offered a service like this before. Now is your chance to get professional designs services at no cost. You can even send me what you my have designed or had designed elsewhere for measuring, testing, and evaluation. We have always offered free testing and measuring services. Again commercially purchased models are also welcome.

I had so much fun with the design work that I took in for the month of June that I am going to extend the offer for the rest of the summer.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Early B. on 13 May 2018, 07:19 pm
A couple of years ago, I sent Danny one of my speakers. To keep the story short -- he re-designed the speakers and took them to a completely different level. My speakers sound so good that my wife insisted that I don't trade them. She's never said that about any of my gear in the past 20 years.

If you've ever considered upgrading the crossover in your speakers in lieu of buying new ones, this opportunity is an absolute no brainer.     
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: SoCalWJS on 13 May 2018, 08:43 pm
Wow! That is a great offer. Tempted to try that out on an old pair I have. Bought them for a second system long before I knew of  AC/GR Research. B&W DM602 S3's. At least decent drivers and so-so enclosures. Often wondered what they would sound like with upgraded crossovers.

Danny - I know through the years you have done this for a wide variety of speakers for many people and companies. Do you have a Master list of those speakers you have already done crossover analysis on?
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Chops on 13 May 2018, 10:30 pm
Wow Danny! What an awesome gesture to the community and offering your expert talents like this. Very very cool indeed!  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 May 2018, 11:45 pm
Danny - I know through the years you have done this for a wide variety of speakers for many people and companies. Do you have a Master list of those speakers you have already done crossover analysis on?

I have files on almost all of them and it would number in the hundreds. Some of them I can't share though.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: oem-wheels on 14 May 2018, 03:42 am
wow, that is a great offer.. and I would of jumped on it last week before I sold my speakers.. darn.. Paradigm Signature S2v3 .. Couldn't get an easy answer on how the crossover was designed (symmetrical or asymmetrical) so I sold them and bought something I know is symmetrical. But I feel the drivers in that speaker was good.. And wonder what it can do if  the crossover was improved
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 May 2018, 03:22 pm
wow, that is a great offer.. and I would of jumped on it last week before I sold my speakers.. darn.. Paradigm Signature S2v3 .. Couldn't get an easy answer on how the crossover was designed (symmetrical or asymmetrical) so I sold them and bought something I know is symmetrical. But I feel the drivers in that speaker was good.. And wonder what it can do if  the crossover was improved

Yes, their crossover parts are usually pretty cheesy.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Studio60.jpg)
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 May 2018, 05:18 pm
I have files on almost all of them and it would number in the hundreds. Some of them I can't share though.
Out of curiosity, have you done any B&W Speakers? And more specifically, the "lower end" ones like what I have (DM602 S3's)? It would be a lot easier for me if you had already done a pair.  :green:
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Hank on 14 May 2018, 05:39 pm
Danny:  a fine and generous offer!
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 May 2018, 05:56 pm
What an offer   :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 May 2018, 06:26 pm
Out of curiosity, have you done any B&W Speakers? And more specifically, the "lower end" ones like what I have (DM602 S3's)? It would be a lot easier for me if you had already done a pair.  :green:

I have been into some 805's but it's been a while.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: HT cOz on 20 May 2018, 06:05 am
Danny this is such an amazing offer!  I enjoyed my modified RS750 crossover upgrage and my N3 Towers that you designed. 
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 27 May 2018, 03:40 pm
Danny, I'm not sure if the ask got buried somewhere in the PM pile, but I thought I would throw this out there:  Do you have any thoughts about trying to do what JBL can't or won't?  Looking around, it seems one could pick up a pair of LSR708i or M2 fairly frequently at a reasonable price, and I'm thinking there might be some interest in the audiophile community for a solution using these top-of-the-line JBL driver/horn designs as turn-key speakers with existing gear intended for passive rather than active crossover speakers.  I know JBL themselves makes the 4367 to be the "passive M2" speaker, but if I had a dollar for every time I've read someone say something like, "That's nice, but the M2 horn is better...," I would probably have a budget to get a pair myself for free.  :lol:

I'm sure some would argue that going passive on these designs is missing the point entirely, but that there are people finding various creative ways to mate the speakers with electronics outside of the JBL ecosystem suggests that there are already some working on thinking outside the corporate box, so to speak.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 May 2018, 02:01 pm
Danny, I'm not sure if the ask got buried somewhere in the PM pile, but I thought I would throw this out there:  Do you have any thoughts about trying to do what JBL can't or won't?  Looking around, it seems one could pick up a pair of LSR708i or M2 fairly frequently at a reasonable price, and I'm thinking there might be some interest in the audiophile community for a solution using these top-of-the-line JBL driver/horn designs as turn-key speakers with existing gear intended for passive rather than active crossover speakers.  I know JBL themselves makes the 4367 to be the "passive M2" speaker, but if I had a dollar for every time I've read someone say something like, "That's nice, but the M2 horn is better...," I would probably have a budget to get a pair myself for free.  :lol:

I'm sure some would argue that going passive on these designs is missing the point entirely, but that there are people finding various creative ways to mate the speakers with electronics outside of the JBL ecosystem suggests that there are already some working on thinking outside the corporate box, so to speak.

I'll be glad to take on the design of a passive filter for them if someone wants to send me a pair.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Sparky14 on 28 May 2018, 03:20 pm
Danny, I am interested. Would it be worth your time to work on an old pair of Jamo 7.4 Bookshelves?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180583)
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 May 2018, 03:49 pm
Danny, I am interested. Would it be worth your time to work on an old pair of Jamo 7.4 Bookshelves?

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180583)

Send them to me and I'll take measurements and evaluate them. Then I can recommend some options.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 1 Jun 2018, 12:39 pm
First pair up is a VMPS 626.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: simon wagstaff on 2 Jun 2018, 01:09 pm
You have worked on the 626s before, with great results, it seems. These are in a little worse shape than the ones you had before. I will be curious to see if you do the same thing, or have some new ideas.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2018, 06:04 pm
I had so much fun with the design work that I took in for the month of June that I am going to extend the offer for the rest of the summer.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services?
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jul 2018, 06:15 pm
You have worked on the 626s before, with great results, it seems. These are in a little worse shape than the ones you had before. I will be curious to see if you do the same thing, or have some new ideas.

Those were a major overhaul and a huge transformation. I took some pictures and documented the before and after results for those that might be interested in what can be done with them. 
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Bizarroterl on 4 Aug 2018, 03:47 pm
Deleted
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Aug 2018, 12:26 am
Danny, I am considering picking up 9 LGKs from you, building them into a base for my Wedgies and sending the base and Wedgies to you to design the crossover.  Would that qualify here?

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: WC on 17 Aug 2018, 01:12 am
So a LGK linesource. Interesting...
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 Aug 2018, 01:18 am
So a LGK linesource. Interesting...

an array , not a  real  line  source. 
Still cool......  I actually  have  drawings for the  10  above and  10 below  a    neo3 in a  waveguide.... just have never gotten around to   cutting them... but  one of these  days

jay
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Aug 2018, 01:18 pm
Danny, I am considering picking up 9 LGKs from you, building them into a base for my Wedgies and sending the base and Wedgies to you to design the crossover.  Would that qualify here?

Best,
Ed

Yeah, I could do that. I've been thinking about doing that for a while and have been considering designing a new 3" driver to be used more as just a woofer for that application.

A more cost effective alternative that might yield better results would be to use four of the M-165 woofers like the lower section of the X-Otica or NX-Otica. At 8.5" wide it would be wider below, but it matches the wedge shape in all angles and it would get the -3db down into a range where it is easier to blend the subs.

I asked Jay last week if he could create a drawing of it since he has basically already created drawings for the lower NX-Otica and Wedges. I think a blending of the two would work out really well. Hopefully he can get to it soon.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Captainhemo on 17 Aug 2018, 02:29 pm
yup,  will  be soon.  I b  have a couple things  I have to get done in the shop  today but maybe this  eve or tomorrow morning I'll   get it  done

jay
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Aug 2018, 05:26 pm
Yeah, I could do that. I've been thinking about doing that for a while and have been considering designing a new 3" driver to be used more as just a woofer for that application.

A more cost effective alternative that might yield better results would be to use four of the M-165 woofers like the lower section of the X-Otica or NX-Otica. At 8.5" wide it would be wider below, but it matches the wedge shape in all angles and it would get the -3db down into a range where it is easier to blend the subs.

I asked Jay last week if he could create a drawing of it since he has basically already created drawings for the lower NX-Otica and Wedges. I think a blending of the two would work out really well. Hopefully he can get to it soon.
Thanks Danny.  I have actually been considering both options, going with the 4 M-165s would allow me to run them with my Wedgies or Oticas although I realize it would likely require a crossover change/adjustment. 

I love the LGKs and that is why I asked about those specifically, however as I think about it I wonder if the frequencies this bass section would handle would really let the LGKs shine as they do in the Wedgie.  If this is something you are working on anyway I may sit back and wait.  Would you come up with the corresponding crossovers to work with the (original) Wedgie or Otica or would you still need someone to build a base unit and send it to you along with the top section?

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Aug 2018, 05:36 pm
Thanks Danny.  I have actually been considering both options, going with the 4 M-165s would allow me to run them with my Wedgies or Oticas although I realize it would likely require a crossover change/adjustment. 

I love the LGKs and that is why I asked about those specifically, however as I think about it I wonder if the frequencies this bass section would handle would really let the LGKs shine as they do in the Wedgie.  If this is something you are working on anyway I may sit back and wait.  Would you come up with the corresponding crossovers to work with the (original) Wedgie or Otica or would you still need someone to build a base unit and send it to you along with the top section?

If the Wedgies and the lower section were bi-amped then no additional filter would be needed for the Wedgies.

If I design a passive filter between the two of them then I'd need a cabinet here for measuring and testing.

The four M-165's would play down low enough to blend them with any sub. But a group of LGK's in an open baffle isn't going to play down much lower than they already do. With a full wing on each side I might be able to get the -3db to 150Hz or 175Hz.

So the M-165's are a better option.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: ebag4 on 17 Aug 2018, 05:46 pm
If the Wedgies and the lower section were bi-amped then no additional filter would be needed for the Wedgies.

If I design a passive filter between the two of them then I'd need a cabinet here for measuring and testing.

The four M-165's would play down low enough to blend them with any sub. But a group of LGK's in an open baffle isn't going to play down much lower than they already do. With a full wing on each side I might be able to get the -3db to 150Hz or 175Hz.

So the M-165's are a better option.

If we bi-amp the upper and lower sections, what would keep the lower section from reproducing the upper frequencies or is that not an issue?

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Aug 2018, 06:02 pm
If we bi-amp the upper and lower sections, what would keep the lower section from reproducing the upper frequencies or is that not an issue?

Thanks,
Ed

It would either need a passive filter or possibly a plate amp with an active filter on it.

The Wedgies could be played just as you are currently using them.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Aug 2018, 06:07 pm
A more cost effective alternative that might yield better results would be to use four of the M-165 woofers like the lower section of the X-Otica or NX-Otica. At 8.5" wide it would be wider below, but it matches the wedge shape in all angles and it would get the -3db down into a range where it is easier to blend the subs.

I asked Jay last week if he could create a drawing of it since he has basically already created drawings for the lower NX-Otica and Wedges. I think a blending of the two would work out really well. Hopefully he can get to it soon.

Was a bit worried about this and it quickly became apparent that  creating a stand alone enclosure to house  4 Ob M165's would be too tall  to  use as  stands for the small  Ob speakers.  by using  3 of the M165 16's, we were able to keep the  height to  26.5" including the  1"  base  and top plate.  Running  3 of the  M165-16's in parallel should  yield  about  91db sensitivity ...
These would be a perfect match for the new Ob  Neo 3 /  Neo 10 using a  simple low pass filter.  Pairing them with the Wedgies would require going active using  a separate  amp with  crossover & gain settings  to power the M165 stands.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183823)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183822)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183824)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183825)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183826)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183830)


jay
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: gregfisk on 29 Aug 2018, 06:40 pm
That looks really good Jay, you're getting good with your cad program.

Is there a crossover already designed for the top section you show in your drawing? I know Rich built one of them and I was thinking about doing the same. Then using the bottom end of my Super Vs with it for something to try. Do you guys see any issue with doing that?
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: corndog71 on 29 Aug 2018, 06:47 pm
Unless there's already a name in the works, maybe we should just start calling it the OB310.   
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Aug 2018, 07:09 pm
That looks really good Jay, you're getting good with your cad program.

Is there a crossover already designed for the top section you show in your drawing? I know Rich built one of them and I was thinking about doing the same. Then using the bottom end of my Super Vs with it for something to try. Do you guys see any issue with doing that?

Hey Greg
Only issue I see is  with the high c/o point, you'd  want the Neo3/Neo10  basically right on top of the  dual 12's.   Yes, Danny  has a network for the  Neo3/Neo10,  there are  pics of the response in the  New Gr Neo3 thread.
see post #149 : https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152039.140
No low pass filter  to the  M165 section  yet, none of these have been built.  Trying to decide if it's worth CNC  programming/cutting for these or  just posting a  pdf and letting  guys  cut their own.... as modeled they do use  1", .75"  and .5"  Medex/Mdf with   angled rabbets,  dado's  etc

Also note,  those  tube connector holes in the long wing won't be there on  the GR version of these,  they are  for  Rich's  active version.

Unless there's already a name in the works, maybe we should just start calling it the OB310.



A name is needed,  that one would  work   :)

jay
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 29 Aug 2018, 07:32 pm
Looking good Jay.

We do need a good name for them. They will be in the Serenity Series of models. Above it is the Super-7 and open baffle line source with 6 Neo 10's and 16 Neo 3's. That line source needs a good name too.

Maybe they can be the Fab-5 or something...
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Captainhemo on 29 Aug 2018, 08:05 pm
Looking good Jay.

We do need a good name for them. They will be in the Serenity Series of models. Above it is the Super-7 and open baffle line source with 6 Neo 10's and 16 Neo 3's. That line source needs a good name too.

Maybe they can be the Fab-5 or something...

If the above and the  line array are going to stay under  a  Serenity line, maybe continue on with the  Super theme....  eg  Super Mini,, Super 7,  Super LS  etc ?

jay

Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: corndog71 on 29 Aug 2018, 08:07 pm
Looking good Jay.

We do need a good name for them. They will be in the Serenity Series of models. Above it is the Super-7 and open baffle line source with 6 Neo 10's and 16 Neo 3's. That line source needs a good name too.

Maybe they can be the Fab-5 or something...

Super-2
Super-5
Super-7
Super-22

This will get awkward when better designs come out.  :P
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: johnnybravo on 5 Sep 2018, 04:51 pm
Hey Danny.
Keith in Houston here.
I know that summer is over.
Are the design services still going on?
I have a pair of old Northcreek Rythem(?)
Diappolito with Scan 8545K and Revelator tweeters.
One of the internal wires came disconnected from the crossover in a move years back.
So, they've been sitting in my garage for at least 5 years.
Wondered if they are worth reviving. 
I've been through and have got other speakers; would just like to maybe 'repurpose' them.
I'm planning a business trip to the DFW area in a few weeks; I could bring them to Wichita Falls.
I don't mind paying for your services and parts.
Thanks man.
Keith

Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 5 Sep 2018, 06:58 pm
Hey Danny.
Keith in Houston here.
I know that summer is over.
Are the design services still going on?
I have a pair of old Northcreek Rythem(?)
Diappolito with Scan 8545K and Revelator tweeters.
One of the internal wires came disconnected from the crossover in a move years back.
So, they've been sitting in my garage for at least 5 years.
Wondered if they are worth reviving. 
I've been through and have got other speakers; would just like to maybe 'repurpose' them.
I'm planning a business trip to the DFW area in a few weeks; I could bring them to Wichita Falls.
I don't mind paying for your services and parts.
Thanks man.
Keith

Yeah, no problem on any of that. Drop them off. I really enjoy the upgrades.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: johnnybravo on 5 Sep 2018, 08:13 pm
Ok thanks.
I'll give you a call and email when I know for sure when.
Keith
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: SteveKi on 11 Oct 2018, 06:08 pm
Danny,
I was thinking about building an open baffle speaker and would need a crossover designed.

I really liked the Super-V. Is there a 12" driver made today that is a good substitute for the P-Audio driver that was used in the Super-V?
Steve
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Oct 2018, 06:58 pm
Danny,
I was thinking about building an open baffle speaker and would need a crossover designed.

I really liked the Super-V. Is there a 12" driver made today that is a good substitute for the P-Audio driver that was used in the Super-V?
Steve

I know that this one is a really nice driver: https://radianaudio.com/products/5312/

I'd like to try this one. Igor (the designer) says the tweeter is really good. https://radianaudio.com/products/12crf6430/  I am not a fan of the non-round frame though.

With either one you could just about replicate the Super-V design.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: FatRaccoon on 14 Oct 2018, 11:12 pm
Any suggestions to integrate two 12" dipole subs with a pair of Quad ESL 63.
The only info I've found so far: http://www.meddens.eu/audio/dipolesub.htm
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Oct 2018, 02:47 pm
Any suggestions to integrate two 12" dipole subs with a pair of Quad ESL 63.
The only info I've found so far: http://www.meddens.eu/audio/dipolesub.htm

Our servo subs have the crossover functions built into the amp that will handle that.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: jpm on 26 Oct 2018, 09:24 pm
Danny - many thanks for expending your talents on my HT center channel speaker. The first and most obvious change I observed was the need to reduce the center volume, as everything was so much clearer it sounded too loud compared to the other speakers with all on the original settings!
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Oct 2018, 09:36 pm
Danny - many thanks for expending your talents on my HT center channel speaker. The first and most obvious change I observed was the need to reduce the center volume, as everything was so much clearer it sounded too loud compared to the other speakers with all on the original settings!

I should have taken some pictures of that one. That was a good looking center channel.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: jpm on 26 Oct 2018, 10:43 pm
Usher do nice work.
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: DaveFred on 12 Jan 2019, 05:28 am
Have you ever done a build with or a crossover for your M165X woofer and T26SG Tweeter?
Title: Re: Free crossover design services for the rest of the summer.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Jan 2019, 05:26 pm
Have you ever done a build with or a crossover for your M165X woofer and T26SG Tweeter?

No. I did do one with the Neo tweeter. It worked out really well, but the sensitivity was a bit low with the M-165X driver. The XBL^ motor drivers are really good below 100Hz and even up to 200Hz, but above that they really give up sensitivity to the normal motor design.

The standard M-165 with that tweeter as used in the X-LS Encore is a better combination.

http://gr-research.com/x-lsencorekit.aspx