B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade

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dknywinnie

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B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« on: 1 Apr 2018, 05:48 am »
I would like to upgrade my B&W Nautilus 805s' crossovers. Each speaker has one HF and one LF crossover.
You can find the schematics at   http://bwgroupsupport.com/manuals/bw-service   and is under Nautilus 800 series/N805.

(1) HF Crossover

R1 5R6      11W    Ceramic Wirewound     BENNIC Resistor
C1  6u8     250V   Polypropylene              ICW
L1  1.45mH          small air core


(2) LF Crossover

R1 3R3      11W   Ceramic Wirewound     BENNIC Resistor
C1  4u7     250V  Polypropylene              ICW
C2  10uF   250V  Polypropylene              ICW
L1  0.15mH         small air core


My budget is between $500 and $800. Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: 1 Apr 2018, 02:52 pm by dknywinnie »

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #1 on: 3 Apr 2018, 04:55 am »
Hi Jeff,

Do you have any recommendations? Besides the capacitors and resistors, should I upgrade the inductors as well?

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 5 Apr 2018, 06:01 am »
Hello,

What are you using for amplification?  Desired sonic results?

Jeff

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 5 Apr 2018, 04:15 pm »
Hi Jeff,

Amplification is a pair Odyssey Audio KISMET mono. I would like the mid separate more from the bottom. The high needs to be smoother but still retain the details.

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 6 Apr 2018, 08:28 am »
My apologies for the additional questions, but sometimes things start to unfold...

Are you biwired, or single wired?  With what cable?  How long are they?  Spades or Bananas (amp end too)?  If single wired, which posts (high or low)?

I understand that you want more definition between the bass and the midrange.  I understand that you want smoother/richer highs without loss of detail.  What do you feel are the best qualities of your 805s, and what drew you to them?

What is the size of your room, and do you use a sub?

nrenter

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 6 Apr 2018, 12:33 pm »
The N&W N805 was my first "high end" speaker, and still have a soft spot for it's sonic signature. I'm interested in how this thread unfolds.

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 6 Apr 2018, 10:52 pm »
Hi Jeff,

The speakers are bi-wired. I tried single wired but it did not perform well.

The Hi is a pair of DIY Jon Risch bi-89259 and the Lo is a pair of Jon Risch quad-89259. All cables are 12-foot long. I also tried Kimber 4TC on the Hi and 8TC on the Lo but the mid was lack of coherent. The 89259 was much superior from top to bottom. Both ends of the cables were terminated with copper, Rhodium plated spades.

I use REL Strata III for a subwoofer and am planning to increase one more Strata III to pair with my mono amps in a near future. Without the sub, the mid LO of the N805 is lacking.

I bought these speakers 18 years ago. Unlike few other speakers I had, the N805 could play all types of music (Classic, Jazz, Rock, etc.) very well. My room size is 18ft x 20ft.
« Last Edit: 7 Apr 2018, 01:18 am by dknywinnie »

srb

Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 7 Apr 2018, 01:02 am »
The Hi is a pair of DIY Joh Risch bi-85259 and the Lo is a pair of Joh Risch quad-85259.

The cable is Belden 89259 (and the designer is Jon Risch).

Although I've built many interconnects with 89259 (both twisted pair and stock coax) I've never tried it for speaker cable.  I haven't been able to determine the effective AWG when used in a cross-connected configuration.  Although the center conductor AWG is known (22 AWG), I don't know what the AWG of the shield would be to calculate AWG for the constructed cable.

Does anyone know what that effective AWG is?

Steve

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 7 Apr 2018, 03:10 am »
FYI
CC89259   ~ 13AWG
Star-Quad ~ 10AWG   

analogmart

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 7 Apr 2018, 05:15 am »
I would like the mid separate more from the bottom. The high needs to be smoother but still retain the details.

You may start from resistor upgrades and Duelund Premium Resistor is really good to check.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_duelund_cast.html

You may end up only change resistors

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 10 Apr 2018, 02:36 pm »
Thank you analogmart. I am reading more about Duelund Resistors.

Hi Jeff,

I would like to hear your recommendations as you have expertise in this field.

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: 15 Apr 2018, 09:27 am »
Thank you for your patience :)  My apologies for the delay as I have been rather busy.

I usually approach a recommendation by theorizing the best possible solution regardless of cost (monetary or otherwise).  Then, I scale it back by the constraints dictated by the customer.  And, this time is no different.  I will start by pointing out our biggest issues.  First, this is a two-way and a sub, not a three-way.  We are dealing with a midbass and a sub, not a midrange and woofer.  It is hard to separate the lower mid from the midbass.  Especially in a room that large.  The sub would sound best 45 down, but the 805 is not palpable below 60 in that big of a room.  I do not like kimber anything on that speaker, but I'm not crazy about your low-pass selection either.  The high-pass is ~ok.  I also assume you have your amp biased to your liking.

We are limited on space inside the cabinet, and short on budget to move the XO external.  Have you ever considered moving the amps close to the speakers making the ICs long, and the speaker cable shorter?  Have you ever tried a high-pass filter on your main amps?  I do not know what the input impedance is for those monos, but a quality film cap (0.15uF for say a 22k input imp) on the input would help.  Or, potentially altering the pre output for the monos.

The binding post and internal wire could stand to be upgraded...  For some reason, I was thinking the low-pass inductor was cored (btw, you have your networks marked backward in your original post)...

With your budget I would:

-Ditch the low-pass board, and remotely mount the following: http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/pair-alpha-core-12-awg-190mh-p-5034  We would dewind them to 1.45mH.  You would use a new prototype cap for the 6.8uF ($66.84 ea), and a http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/56-ohm-mills-mra-12-p-660  Point to point wired with http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-cda-101-16-awg-p-5003  Twisted pair where possible.
-Same series prototype caps ($51.24/$85.80 ea) "shoehorned" (larger/heavier) onto the high-pass board.  Replace the resistor with http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/33-ohm-mills-mra-10-p-3645.

This will have you in for ~$540 plus shipping, and leave some budget for a pair of nice small caps, longer ICs, and new low-pass speaker cable.  Select to taste after you put a couple of hundred hours on the combo above.

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #12 on: 15 Apr 2018, 09:35 am »
You may start from resistor upgrades and Duelund Premium Resistor is really good to check.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_duelund_cast.html

You may end up only change resistors

It is bad form to post this link in my forum  :nono:

Further, those resistors will not do anything to help him except warm the tweeter at the expense of some transparency.  I'm not trying to discourage your enthusiasm.  Especially since you were so moved to post...  I noticed it is your only post in the last 5 years  :roll: 

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: 15 Apr 2018, 09:37 am »
FYI
CC89259   ~ 13AWG
Star-Quad ~ 10AWG

Closer to 14 and 11.

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: 16 Apr 2018, 12:06 am »
Thank you Jeff. Can you tell me more about the prototype capacitor? If I increase my budget, will Mundorf Supreme S/G/O or Jupiter Copper be a better choice?

Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: 16 Apr 2018, 04:53 am »
It is a true film and foil, not a metalized poly like the Mundorfs.  However, the SGO would be appreciable in the tweeter circuit.  Not better than the prototype in "this" application.  Further, I do not believe the results would dictate the $720 for just the tweeter caps.  Further, they would not go in the cabinet.  The 10uF alone is 2" x 4".  Just moving the XO external in a reasonable fashion adds another $400+ to the bill.

You would not want to use them at all on the midbass circuit.  You definitely want a true foil cap here.  The Jupiter Copper would be great, but I still think you would prefer the prototype on the tweeter.  Besides, the Coppers are larger and more expensive than the SGOs.

Unfortunately, I can not tell you more about the prototype.  Yet, I'm confident enough to offer your money back if you are not thrilled with them on your tweeter.  There is ~350 hours break-in, but you will like them right away.  If you had us do the work, I'd even refund that part of the labor, and reverse the mod as clean and neat as the factory (more really).  As for the mids down, we can help.  A lot!  But, it will be a bit of a process.

I do not feel it is worthwhile to throw more money directly at this speaker.  You will have other things to do as I have mentioned.  My recommendation is far from a lateral move.  If I thought your budget was not substantial enough, I'd be the first to tell you to put your pesos back in your pocket.

dknywinnie

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: 16 Apr 2018, 02:20 pm »
Hi Jeff,

I would like to place an order on the parts you suggested. Since I cannot order the prototype capacitors through your site, can you provide me an invoice for the order? I tried to send you a PM but it was blocked.







Jeff

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: 16 Apr 2018, 06:32 pm »
This site does not always alert you, so I have missed PMs in the past.  I have turned off that option.  Further, you will receive a faster response by emailing me.  Simply click the "Contact Us" link on my website.  If you already have an account on our site, that will be a leg up.

richp4003

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Re: B&W N805 Crossover components Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: 30 Apr 2018, 06:47 pm »
The N&W N805 was my first "high end" speaker, and still have a soft spot for it's sonic signature. I'm interested in how this thread unfolds.

Mine as well, sold them a few years ago to upgrade (after having them well over a decade) I regret having done that.. its such a great speaker, still.