AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Von Schweikert Audio Owners => Topic started by: harley52 on 29 Mar 2015, 12:28 pm
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Has someone tried class d amp with the VR22's or the VR33's? If so what was your impression. A simple description is all I'm asking for. If you have and didn't like what you heard what did you go back to or tried that worked well?
I have my eye on a Micromega AI400, the old model w/o the wireless included or something like that. I like the price of the Musical Fidelity PWR1 class d amp. But, I suspect there's a reason :nono: and not a good reason they are selling for $500 or two for $800.
Thanks
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I don't have VSA speakers, but I do have a black Micromega IA-400 I've been planning to sell. It's in brand new condition - not even broken in yet, with maybe 50-75 hours on it. I went a little crazy, had a mid-life crisis, and bought a Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, which is why I'm selling the Micromega. Just been a little slow getting it on the selling boards. I don't know which specific IA-400 you're looking at, but if go this direction and would like to look at alternatives pieces, feel free to PM me.
Good luck in your search. Hope you find the info and piece you're looking for.
-Mike
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I own a pair of VR-4 Gen II's and a pair of VR-33's. Class D amplifiers I have used with both are the Wyred 4 Sound ST-500, the Spectron Musician II and the Spectron Musician III Mk2. All Class D amplifiers do not sound the same and even when similar modules are used, there can be clear differences in the bass, midrange and treble.
I can't comment on the Musical Fidelity but for the amps I mention above the W4S is decent and the Musician III Mk2 is superb with the Musician II falling between those two. A used W4S ST-250 or ST-500 would be slightly more than the new Musical Fidelity though I can't compare the two manufacturer's products.
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Contact Paul McGowan at PS Audio. He tried building class D amps & gave up, deciding to go class AB, with a tube front end.
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Hey Mike, the Micromega is a new one with a silver face plate for under 4 figures. That 10 yr. warranty is sweet.
Hi Smilach, the amps you mentioned are built in N. America and I really like that whereas, the MF's are built in Taiwan, not that I have a problem with that as long as it's not made in China. I like to buy stuff made here or Canada as we can sure use all the work we can get in this economy.
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I own a pair of Vr-35s. I've tried 3 high-end amps or integrated amps now that I feel are exceptional with the VR-35s and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them.
Arion HS-500s
NAD M2 integrated
Devialet 120 integrated
None of these are cheap but they all use class D in one form or another. Before trying these, I had been using a McCormack DNA-500 amp (class AB) which I loved. I'd say these 3 amps are on par with the McCormack in terms of overall sound quality although each had different strengths and weaknesses.
Class D (and hybrids like the Devialet) have come a long way in the last few years.
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Years ago.Bel canto and red dragon monos.Couldnt stand them.Highly fatiguing and exaggerated bass
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I bought mine new from the same source and know some of the history of the silver one. My price would be in the same ballpark, but no blemishes. Good luck whatever you decide.
Mike
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Hi Smilach, the amps you mentioned are built in N. America and I really like that whereas, the MF's are built in Taiwan, not that I have a problem with that as long as it's not made in China. I like to buy stuff made here or Canada as we can sure use all the work we can get in this economy.
I live in a rural area and the nearest high end audio store is at least a 140 mile drive and that is assuming they carry a product I want. If I am dealing with an American manufacturer I have a chance to deal with them directly on warranty/repair issues. For products made in Europe or in Asia everything becomes more difficult.
That said, the Spectron Musician II absolutely buried my 90's manufactured Aragon 8008BB that was driving my VR-4 Gen II's. The increased bass control and sweetness of treble was in an entirely different league. I later found the Musician III MK2 to be a significant jump up in performance relative to the Musician II. I listen to Japanese Taiko drums on a regular basis and for the "you are there" experience, finesse and slew rate is not sufficient. You also need horsepower. :thumb:
-Scott
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I concur with Scott's comments, there can be real differences in Class D. The best I've heard are the Spectron Musician III Mk2s, they are my reference and I have paired them with VR22s to great results. Slightly more affordable and also very good sounding amps that work well with Vons (though I'm not sure I heard them on the 22s) are the Digital Amp Co products. I'd give the nod to either of these over W4S.
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Hi Scott,
I'm using the Spectron Musician III Mk2 amps in monoblock configuration for my bass amps or full range if I want to save tube life on the mid/treble amp. One thing that stands out with the Spectrons is that they sound the same no matter what volume level you use. Part of that is their power capability (1600 watts in monoblock mode I think).
The fact that class-D is very efficient means that the demands on current draw from the power supply is always varying. This is unlike, say, SET amps that have essentially constant power supply draw. So power conditioning and power cable choice has a big impact on the final sound.
Oh, I also have an older BelCanto 4 channel amp that has been relegated to a bedroom system which is about the only place I'd use it. Technology marches on.
Best,
Robert
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Contact Paul McGowan at PS Audio. He tried building class D amps & gave up, deciding to go class AB, with a tube front end.
Sunday: Your post is misleading. PS Audio has built many Class D amplifiers in the past, and Paul's recent prototypes with class D have used only older tech class D (specifically Hypex uCD modules with various front custom input stages) rather than more recent Hypex nCore, or Pascal technology.
Additionally, he never tried the tube front end of the new amp with the class D current stage either...
I have heard both the prototype class D amps, and the new tube/MOSFET hybrid class A/B amp...
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I don't have VSA speakers, but I do have a black Micromega IA-400 I've been planning to sell. It's in brand new condition - not even broken in yet, with maybe 50-75 hours on it. I went a little crazy, had a mid-life crisis, and bought a Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, which is why I'm selling the Micromega. Just been a little slow getting it on the selling boards. I don't know which specific IA-400 you're looking at, but if go this direction and would like to look at alternatives pieces, feel free to PM me.
Good luck in your search. Hope you find the info and piece you're looking for.
-Mike
Mike: I am envious of your S2! That is a fantastic sounding integrated, and to my mind a very good way to step off the audiophile bandwagon of constant "upgrades", and get something which will keep one happy long term: simple, great sounding, and solid. I wish I had the coin to make a similar move, and just forget about amps and volume controls forever...
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Barrows:
I consider myself very lucky to have the S2. Like most folks here, I spent too much time and money over the years churning through gear in search of the affordable holy grail. I just out of the blue decided it was time to get off the merry go round and start buying "destination" pieces - the kind of pieces you invest in and keep for a long time. The S2 was the first of these pieces. I was lucky enough to buy one in mint condition from the original owner and saved significantly off retail. Even then these are expensive pieces, but it's a fabulous amp. Once you have it, see it, touch it and listen to it, you understand the level of engineering that went into it and the expense seems much more reasonable. It's a keeper.
-Mike
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I don't have VSA's but I have been very pleased using the Class D Audio stereo amp to drive my Usher BE-718's. If you really want to try class d, $695 for a 300wpc amp is an inexpensive way to do it, and my experience with the company has been great. Also, made in the USA, if that matters to you.
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Here is a my take on the 22's: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue69/vsa_vr22_loudspeakers.htm
I used CIA D100B mono's with them and they sounded great. Ultimately I preferred my tube amp, but Class D can definitely sound wonderful.
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Mike: Sweet. By no means was I suggesting that the S2 is overpriced, indeed it is a fairly priced piece of gear for the level of engineering, build quality, and parts quality it employs. My only point was that I currently cannot afford it, even at a fair used price: this is just my problem, not a problem with the S2. I totally agree that it could be a "destination" component for many audiophiles tired of the merry go 'round!
I hope that you enjoy it for many years.
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Sunday: Your post is misleading. PS Audio has built many Class D amplifiers in the past, and Paul's recent prototypes with class D have used only older tech class D (specifically Hypex uCD modules with various front custom input stages) rather than more recent Hypex nCore, or Pascal technology.
Additionally, he never tried the tube front end of the new amp with the class D current stage either...
I have heard both the prototype class D amps, and the new tube/MOSFET hybrid class A/B amp...
Try following Paul's posts.
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I have used W4S SX500 monoblocks to drive a pair of VR4jrs. I then replaced the W4S with Hypex nc400 monoblocks
in Aluminati Sound cases which was a nice improvement. Have since replaced VR4jrs with Vapor Joule Black.
Don P.
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Barrows:
No worries - I didn't take your post that way. Hope you find what you're looking for in this crazy hobby we call audio.
-Mike
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I use a pair of the W4S mAmps to run the woofer module on my VR4jr's. I used to have them powering both modules when biwiring.
I was plenty impressed when I began using them. I had previously had a pair of Manley Snappers biwired.
I was concerned with the speed of the Class D amp, but my concerns have been eliminated.
Now that I am bi amping and have balanced out my gain differentials, the amps do plenty well IMO w/ their duty.
Their biggest perks are price and heat dissipation. I also found the manufacturer to be very responsive and easy to work with.
Good luck -
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I'm using the Bel Canto Ref 500 x3 on my Uni 2's front, in a HT sound system. Detailed without edge, open, terrific low-end punch I have found they provide all the dynamics I could wish for in a small, warm running package. Jack
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I am using a Bel Canto eVo2i MkII integrated with my VR-33s and I am very happy with the sound, and would echo Jack's comments above (other than the "small, warm running" part, as the eVo2i is a full size component that doesn't more than warm).
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Does anyone remember the big class D Mark Levinson monoblock's that Michael Fremer trashed in a review? I think they were in the $50k range.
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I use DIY ICEpower 1000ASP monoblocks to drive my VR-4 Gen III HSEs. I really like the power, speed and transparency of ICEpower amps. I think my monoblocks are a great match with my speakers. I've considered biamping with tubes on the top module and may try it if I ever scrape up enough funds.
Martin
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Does anyone remember the big class D Mark Levinson monoblock's that Michael Fremer trashed in a review? I think they were in the $50k range.
Sure do SN and you can find them new sealed on line for less than half msrp. My local dealer can't give 'em away..
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I've used a number of the Digital Amp Co. class D Cherry amps on my VFR4jrs to good effect. I never heard the speakers with my current DAC Maraschino amps though I'm sure it would have been a fantastic pairing.
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Yep, I ran the little Maraschino monos on my 5s and loved the results. I think Tommy O'Brien's amps are really quite special and a great match with the Vons.
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I used Channel Island 500's with my VR 35's. They were recommended and I really like how they make my speakers sing.
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Channel Islands D-200 Mk. II's with VR-35's. Couldn't be happier!
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I mentioned the Bel Canto's 500 mono's above.. I should have said they are the Ref 1000's. Also, I'm using the Flying Mole 100 mono's for my VSA rear surrounds. The Flying Mole's have a volume attenuator on the front plate which I find handy when dialing in the rears. I also have on stand-by, a Virtue Audio Stereo amp. All pretty cool stuff,, that offer big sound in a small pkg. Jack
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I have heard the following excellent Class D designs with VSA speakers that are worthy of audition: Channel Islands D500 and Merrill Audio Veritas but personally preferred Nuforce designs of Reference 9V2 SE or later, and Reference 18 and Reference 20. More recent quality Class D designs are hitting the Editors Choice and Recommended components lists of TAS including the Nuforce 18, plus MBL and Rowland. All teh ones that I have heard do need good power cords and isolation and I think benefit from a tubes preamp.
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This past weekend I listened to the monstrous JBL Project Everest DD66000 speakers driven by the Devialet 200. The diminutive Devialet is one extraordinary integrated/DAC and IMHO a game changer..
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This past weekend I listened to the monstrous JBL Project Everest DD66000 speakers driven by the Devialet 200. The diminutive Devialet is one extraordinary integrated/DAC and IMHO a game changer..
Those speakers BEG for tubes.
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Let me get this out of the way. I'm coincidentally selling my Spectron Monoblocks on Audiogon so take the following comments for what they are worth. That said, I am a VSA owner so I suppose I have some credibility on the topic.
I was a very early adopter of the Musician III in its stereo form and I used with VR-4s with much success. I then upgraded to the Musician III Signature mk2 and it was pretty much a different amp at that point. This was followed by an upgrade to the Bybees which again was a big improvement. The V-Caps and then fully modded monoblocks followed once I got a pair of VR-5 Anniversaries. I love love love the Spectrons. They are effortless in their presentation. Not once have I ever felt they had a lack of drive or dynamics. Of course, they come in at over 1000 watts per channel bridged to mono so they have gobs of power that just kick ass with the VSAs which aren't the easiest speakers to drive. Its no wonder they mate well with VSA speakers since Albert used them at one time for voicing speakers.
My only other experience with class D is the Cherry amps which Albert briefly used in a demo at RMAF a couple (three?) years ago. They sucked. Whether there was something wrong with them or they just aren't very good, I noticed Albert ditched them after a day and went with different amps.
Ultimately, the amps that displaced the Spectrons were Berning Quadrature Z Monoblocks. Had my friend not been selling the Bernings, I would still be happily listening to the Spectrons. The Bernings are a definite step up from the Spectrons but then they cost $30,000.
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My experience... (I have Uni2 mk2)
After a lot of online research on forums I concluded the Channel Islands Audio (CIA) class D amps was perhaps the best option at its price(compared to Emotiva, Butler Audio, and Odyssey) . So i decided to try their D200 mk2 amps. After purchasing, i did some A/B testing with my 5 year old denon 3311ci receiver's built in amps. Rest of the components being identical. The d200 connected to denon's preouts.
It was nearly impossible to detect any difference in the sound quality except one minor thing (the vocals appeared to be shifted slightly left of true center in case of D200). When i reported to CIA that the sound was identical, he was kind enough to send me their preamps (free just for trial) to eliminate any possibility that the denon's built in preamps were holding the D200s back. I redid the A/B test with CIA preamp+amp vs the Denon. Still same result. No diff except the minor issue I note above.
There was really no audible difference in sound quality, be it bass, midrange, highs, soundstage or imaging.
Since the Denon can handle both HT & stereo, and the D200s pair could only do stereo while costing ~$3k more than what i paid for the denon... i returned the D200.
On the plus side it felt good to know that the my cheaper setup sounded as good as something much more expensive and was also more flexible... On the down side this cost me a few hundred bucks in restocking fees and shipping.
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Curious to learn what IC/Speaker cables you are using and I'm guessing you are using a bare wrap on the denon terminals since it won't accommodate spades/banana's? Jack
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Using a pair of VR-6 as a reference we compared a Wytech 211 based SET to the hybrid class "D" Arion S-500Se with Duelund CAST output cap. To our surprise the Arion just sounded more like music. An uncolored presentation with more weight and dynamics. Bas was better focused with slam factor. The midrange bloom was not noticed from the Wytech until the direct comparison was made. Tried also on VR4 to great affect.
charles