AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: virtue on 2 Jan 2012, 08:38 pm
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Guys,
It's a no-brainer to leverage commodity ICs to build a portal media player but I really don't think we can add value in this space.
Take for example this product for $90.
http://www.amazon.com/Micca-EP350-G2-Network-HD-Audio/dp/B004GIZ61K/ref=pd_luc_sim_02_03_t_lh
A Universal Media Player
The EP350 G2 provides flawless playback for all of today's popular media file formats! It is able to handle high definition videos perfectly all the way up to 1080p Full-HD resolution.
- Video Files: AVI, MKV, MP4, M2TS, MOV, DAT, VOB, IFO, MPG, TS, TP, WMV, ASF, RM, RMVB, FLV, ISO
- Video Codec: H.264/AVC, MPEG1/2/4, DivX/Xvid, VC-1, RMVB
- Audio Files/Codec: AC3, TrueHD, DTS, DTS-MA/HR, MP3, WMA, AAC, OGG, FLAC, M4A, WAV
- Photo Formats: JPG, GIF, PNG, BMP, TIF
Up to 4TB of Internal Storage
The EP350 G2 contains an internal 3.5" SATA HDD bay for up to 4TB of storage space. This internal storage provides a central location for all your media files with fast and stable playback
Fast LAN and 802.11n Wi-Fi Ready
The EP350 G2 has a built-in 10/100mbps fast Ethernet LAN connection. Unlike other network enabled media players, the EP350 G2 uses the network not just for playing media files on other devices, but also for serving media files to other devices. The EP350 G2 can play media files from UPnP media servers, manage BitTorrent downloads, access web services like Flikr and Picasa.
NOTE: 802.11n Wi-Fi (Not Included) streaming speeds vary, Ethernet LAN required for high bit rate videos
What's Included - EP350 G2 Digital Media Player
- IR Remote Control
- 110-240V AC Adapter
- Composite AV cables
Even this one for $60 is sick:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002XVBAKI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=AFKH6OU9WWNFS
Has anyone tried out something like this? Is the COAX/optical output full bandwidth?
Are there any advantages to using a stand-alone player vs. a netbook with USB 2.0 output?
Seth
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The ones that you mention are more targeted to video files. Like most of players of a similar price, they require a TV to be on to use the interface to select media. This type of control is a no go for many audiophiles, who don't want a TV on when listening to music. Audio quality on many of these boxes is an afterthought, so finding one that plays up to an audiophile quality is hit or miss.
With the proliferoration of these media streamers, why would you spend 2x as much to get the SB Touch or 20x as much for a Bryson music streamer that only does audio? Two reasons: sound quality and useability.
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They're all using 32-bit ARM type processor or FPGA cores for decoding the streams to SPDIF. That technology is bleeding edge and at the same time a commodity in low-cost consumer electronics.
What high-end audio company has the resources to decode DTS better than REALTEK? Are these consumer devices practically limited on bit-rate? How many of you are downloading files with more native information than 24/96? Is DSD/384, etc. practically useful for large music libraries?
SB has some more streaming options, but for persisting high bandwidth files onto a hard-drive, can something like this be beat?
Paired with a world-class DAC, is this type of server any worse than a Bryston (albeit with a few more moving parts) on a 24/96 high-resolution download?
Thanks for educating me! Like many others, I'd like to know what is vapor-ware and what really matters.
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Most of the media streamers make little mention of bit rate for audio. They may be able to process 24 bit audio, but no one will know unless they try. I looked at a lot of the boxes and settled on an AppleTV, which tops out at 16bit, 48Hz. All of my music is CD rips in iTunes. The ability to use the Remote app on my iPad to select the music to play on the AppleTV was what sold me on it. I am too much of a cheapskate to collect much 24bit music.
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Agreed. I gave my netbook to a friend and am considering getting a new one or a media server. I'd also like to know what we're going to face competitively without our own media server. I just can't make one cheaper than these things and could I possibly make it sound better?
I'd like to know what is voodoo in this space.
As for 24/96, I own around 5 high-res albums. Who can afford to replace their collection of CDs with that stuff? Perhaps this is the new iTunes cloud business model. Is Apple officially "up-converting" our collections to 24/96 if we stream from them on a subscription basis? Is anyone else doing it?
Is anyone persisting native 24/96 music collections on their music servers (not just ripped CDs at higher rez)? Pirated or expensive Hi-Rez downloads only?
Does this all make USB 2.0 from an iTunes streaming device (ie. laptop or iPad) the practical "state of the art" right now?
Are media servers for audio just a fad for the time-warped, rich and curious?
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Interesting discussion. I had no idea there were so many different media servers competing with Roku, Apple TV, Dune HD, etc... I'm currently using VortexBox for audio, which is free, if you have an old PC laying around. It will support hi-rez. I think it would be hard to compete in this price range. For less than $300 you can get a Squeezebox touch that supports 24/96.
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Agreed. I gave my netbook to a friend and am considering getting a new one or a media server. I'd also like to know what we're going to face competitively without our own media server. I just can't make one cheaper than these things and could I possibly make it sound better?
I wouldn't worry about putting out a media server. It is mainly about software and infrastructure, not hardware.
As for 24/96, I own around 5 high-res albums. Who can afford to replace their collection of CDs with that stuff? Perhaps this is the new iTunes cloud business model. Is Apple officially "up-converting" our collections to 24/96 if we stream from them on a subscription basis? Is anyone else doing it?
I only own 2 hi-res albums. :) Apple won't upconvert our collections to 24/96, since the best the offer is Lossy AAC compressed music files. Now they could upgrade the sound quality in the future, but I wouldn't think the market is there for them to do it to 24/96. I could see them selling apple lossless tracks if they think there is a market for it. Very few people are upgrading their collections currently, most are ripping DVD-As or SACDs. There just isn't much content available in hi-res formats to replace an entire CD collection.
Is anyone persisting native 24/96 music collections on their music servers (not just ripped CDs at higher rez)? Pirated or expensive Hi-Rez downloads only?
There are several different ways to get Hi-res files on a music server: Rip SACDs or DVD-A discs, downloads, or digitally record LPs (variable quality).
Not an inexpensive way to go for content.
Does this all make USB 2.0 from an iTunes streaming device (ie. laptop or iPad) the practical "state of the art" right now?
Not really. iTunes is limited in it's bitrate and mediocre SQ. The benefit of iTunes is in musical organization. Pure music uses iTunes to organize the music, but has a different playback engine. There are others on PCs that work well also.
Are media servers for audio just a fad for the time-warped, rich and curious?
The future is moving away from physical media. Media servers are here to stay, but the final form has yet to be determined. Will it be a stripped down computer running linux (such as the Bryston), cheap chip based receivers that can receive streams from a computer server (such a SB Touch or AppleTV), or something else?
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Have any of you compared Spotify premium to a high-end CD-player?
How about MOG desktop?
Seth
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From what I have read, MOG sounds better than Spotify. Neither one is as good as CD quality. It will be a couple more weeks until I can use MOG desktop to stream to my AppleTV. I heard that it sounds good. Currently I have only used MOG on my iPod and it sounds fine.
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Seth,
MOG is currently the best out there with Spotify a distance back but acceptable. MOG is near CD quality but not on the same level as when CD's are listened to via a M1 Piano and Sensation integrated. Lessor quality systems might find the margin of difference less.
I find MOG quite acceptable at night using my Hifiman planar cans both via iMac or through my Wayne modded Touch but not on the pure, absolute clarity of musical consciousness of my Piano CD player.
I do use MOG daily as a try before you buy for inusual music that is sometimes near "unobtanium".
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Love it Tommy. Isn't it strange that 30 year-old technology is still superior?
Once the streamers exceed CD-quality, it will certainly be game over.
This discussion has been very interesting.
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Wish I could give MOG or Spotify a try, both services are currently unavailable here in Canada. I’ve been using Rdio and the quality is decent, but definitely not CD quality.
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Once the streamers exceed CD-quality, it will certainly be game over.
We are the only ones that care about sound quality, the mass market is about convenience. I buy CDs and rip to FLAC to be served up to my SB3->coaxial out->DAC. There is no reason for me to change from this, the DAC is where all the magic happens. What do I care about a media streamer? The mass market has no interest interest in high fidelity audio. For Christmas I bought my Mom a bunch of mp3 albums from Amazon, she could never hear the difference between mp3 and lossless.
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Once the streamers exceed CD-quality, it will certainly be game over.
FWIW, I noticed an article today in the popular press that digital downloads now exceed physical media purchases.
I know that's not what you said, but the writing is on the wall. Sadly, as I like buying albums.
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TAS has an interesting article on FLAC this month: says WAV is better; FLAC is not in fact lossless. Also, it's gung-ho on upsampling, in contrast to NOS... Thoughts?
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Mr. Krinski,
To the mediocrity of the streaming masses It has been game over for quite some time!
To the audiophiles on this forum it will only get better.
Kind of like I save my best photos in tiff.
Ok think it over jpg for photos is gonna end up lining some lawyers pocket kind of like where FLAC is heading!
Lets brainstorm a bit and find a file to get all of the information out of formats that are heading into court rooms.
Kinda like active speakers.. :duh:
I think Virtue ... nuf said.
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We just need to revive Napster, right?
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Well shucks, that Micca media server was $90 yesterday, $100 today. I wonder if it is because of the Federal holiday.
Hey Jason, do you think you could hot rod one of those for me?
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Well shucks, that Micca media server was $90 yesterday, $100 today. I wonder if it is because of the Federal holiday.
Hey Jason, do you think you could hot rod one of those for me?
with what limited room I'm sure is in that thing I'm guessing the modification possibilities are very limited
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These are simple devices.
Crap in -> Crap out.
Quality in -> Quality out.
The magic would be on the DAC after it.
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Last I knew, sigma-based converters like the WDTV resampled all hi-rez audio to 16/48khz. They don't tell you this, you have really search for the info. Also their 1st gen WDTV was found to have additional processing on both analog and digital out (someone did some testing on avs a few years back) -shortly afterwards WD released upadated firmware removing the processing. I have demoed MANY of these media players and they sound very poor. Be it due to jitter or what have you all I know is coax/optical sq was terrible and they all sound a little different. It's difficult to get the real scoop on how audio is being dealt with because most just get the stock chip from Realtek and then just slap on some minor aesthetic, functional changes, a price tag and call it a day. Realtek themselves have never divulged any info as far as I know. So there is more going on than meets the eye. Ironically, I found the wdtv (post-updated firmware) to have the best sound quality of the half dozen or so players I tried out. One piece of the puzzle is power supply. Swap out the cheap smps for a linear and quality gets a big bump. Sigma-based in general are/were considered higher quality in general to Realtek, but Realtek offers more format compatibility. Personally, I think Realtek designs their chips with some dsp thrown in to appeal to 'home theater' sound' (smile-face boom/sizzle FR).
Edit: I do see WDTVs now do 24bit, but the downsampling 'bug' for 88.2 and higher still persists five years later despite repeated promises to 'fix' it...
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Great reply! Thanks for the additional info.
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The difference between wav and flac is the difference between an uncompressed file and a zip file. Unless you have an issue with your decompression algorithm...
TAS has an interesting article on FLAC this month: says WAV is better; FLAC is not in fact lossless. Also, it's gung-ho on upsampling, in contrast to NOS... Thoughts?
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We are the only ones that care about sound quality, the mass market is about convenience. I buy CDs and rip to FLAC to be served up to my SB3->coaxial out->DAC. There is no reason for me to change from this, the DAC is where all the magic happens. What do I care about a media streamer? The mass market has no interest interest in high fidelity audio. For Christmas I bought my Mom a bunch of mp3 albums from Amazon, she could never hear the difference between mp3 and lossless.
If I get a 10,000kbps bitstream from Spotify over WAN, I still need a killer DAC to get it to my amp/speakers.
And, I still want my music, tagged my way. This is something all these companies making proprietary hardware based music servers overlook - J. River for example gives my the freedom I desire - some don't need that freedom - but I wouldn't consider them serious collectors, audiophiles? ....possibly.
Spotify just bumped up their "high" setting to 320kbps iirc.
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TAS has an interesting article on FLAC this month: says WAV is better; FLAC is not in fact lossless. Also, it's gung-ho on upsampling, in contrast to NOS... Thoughts?
Edit: My thoughts? Like MicroSoft, Apple, and Amazon. Some of the biggest online internet music stores that sell music have to implement DRM Digital Rights *RESTRICTION* Management code into the music... So of course Microsoft is going to tout it's system is better and to hop into the hollywood drm scam they are going to spend craploads of $ to prove it. FLAC is open source, free, almost universally supported, non DRM and does everything (aside of DRM I think) that lossless WMA can makes FLAC superior.
I thought about getting a SB BOOM. It has a class D 30 watt amp built in and a sub out. Tho, for STREAMING music like SOMA FM, the highest they go is 160K. They once offered 192K but removed the streams for some reason.
It may be awhile for "INTERNET" streaming to catch up to ripping a CD to FLAC but... The time for that has been here for a LONG time. ONE of the biggest reasons is ... Flash memory 16Gigs is like 10 bucks. You can put a good amount of music in lossless format.
For those that can honestly say they can tell the difference between 192K MP3 between original CD are pulling out the BS card. Half the crap you hear that the audio quality is this vs that is propaganda put out there by the recording industry to scare people into buying CD's... I've seen the results of double blind tests and very few people can get it right and they are in there 20's!
Listen if you under 30 you'd have to have magical ears to hear the difference. Over 40? unless you have not exposed your ears to loud music or have never been to a movie theater / rock concert and living in the country with no loud machines or cars you might have a chance. But for the rest of us? It's just plain BS. Go get your ears checked before you make these claims. I'm not saying that NO ONE can't determine the quality... Just the select few and if you can great! Enjoy it while you can! I know I don't have golden ears that's for sure. But I'm glad I found the tripath chipset before I turned 50-60! :)
Sometimes I think maybe why old folks still prefer that tube sound is because the brain perceives that it was good when their hearing was good... Even tho at 80 you know the dude can't hear worth a crap. Maybe when tripath chips go way of something better... and all of us are old. We'll remember how great the old tripath sound was and keep it alive till we pass on! :)
Back to my story... If we can take the 30Watt Amp out of the squeezebox boom and pop in a Virtue amp... I wouldn't need anything more! Of course you'd have to have an option of playing external speakers on it. :)
For me, I'd think you'd would kill the market if one had a high quality amp connected to wifi and a decent dac to tap into the internet stream of over 5000 radio stations and stream your high quality Flacs via USB flash or wifi would be candy on top of candy.... :drool:
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