[hum4god]

thanks john
i was thinking about something like that and you confirm that this would be my best option without braking the bank and finding out if its worth persuing.
i have some 3.3 and 4.7 caps and an old NAD integrated amp that will probably be fine for first impressions....


macrojack
i am biamping now and will/would be triamping with the raals which btw are 95db .
i use a 300b set on the horns which works great and assume that i will need 30-50w for the raals.
i actually have to run the woofers -6db right now to adjust the balance between the DCM and the bass.

[macrojack]

Are you saying that your woofers are 6 db more efficient than the AH 300s or the other way around?
I don't know if it is the ideal tweeter amp but I always thought very highly of my little Melody/Onix SP-3. Used it can be had for around $550.

[Kevin Haskins]

The problem with naming an efficiency... is that you have to also specify where.    Horns are by nature narrow bandwidth devices so typically you get a humped response around the acoustic gain of the horn and elsewhere it is significantly less.   You need lots of devices to cover the audible range and only rarely do you see such horns due to the expense and the vertical dispersion issues due to path distances between devices.   

It is more useful to look at a measured graph and just know that the system is much more efficient in some areas than others and you design a crossover...either active or passive to normalize the response. 

[hum4god]

sorry, no macrojack

i am saying that i drive the 106db horns with 5w
and the approx. 96db bass with 50w .
thats why there is too much power in the bass relative to the horn.

[nullspace]

i have some 3.3 and 4.7 caps and an old NAD integrated amp that will probably be fine for first impressions....

Way, WAY, WAY too big. You'll need to look up the input impedence of the NAD amp. May be as low as 10k. 3.3uf & 10k ohms is a resonant freq of 4.8Hz. Use the calculator I linked to to get a ballpark figure, then you'll need to 'tune' it by ear if you don't have any measuring gear.

[macrojack]

Kevin - I'm not at all well versed in these matters but I have been assuming that comparative efficiency ratings would get you an idea of gross matching. Refinement would then follow according to whatever means you have at your disposal but, assuming you got stage one right,
would require relatively small compensation.

RE:Horns - Mine reproduce 400 hz. to 14 Khz out of one narrow dispersion horn with only an 18 inch mouth. And they're pretty flat too. If you can sit back around 15 feet or more, they represent a great bargain. Hum4 god has the same horns.

[hum4god]

Hi John

sorry i wasn't clear .
i am not very familiar w/ Rc networks and misread your post.
my idea actually was to take the signal from the tact preamp to the nad amp and use a 1st order xover after the nad amp .
would that work ?

[nullspace]

Yep, that would work.

[Kevin Haskins]

Kevin - I'm not at all well versed in these matters but I have been assuming that comparative efficiency ratings would get you an idea of gross matching. Refinement would then follow according to whatever means you have at your disposal but, assuming you got stage one right,
would require relatively small compensation.

RE:Horns - Mine reproduce 400 hz. to 14 Khz out of one narrow dispersion horn with only an 18 inch mouth. And they're pretty flat too. If you can sit back around 15 feet or more, they represent a great bargain. Hum4 god has the same horns.

You need to look at the measured response of a device on the horn if you are designing from scratch.   There isn't any shortcuts or easy rules of thumb.    You can do crude things with rules of thumb but you cannot do a good design unless you are extraordinarily lucky.    The same goes for other drivers too.   The published response by a manufacture is often done mounted in a wall in a 2Pi configuration.   You have to measure them in the actual acoustic environment (enclosure) being used because the measured response in the enclosure is significantly different than what is shown in a spec sheet.    Also... you have to look at a range of measurements of several different axis to do what I consider a really good design.    If you work from one measurement on one axis you are severely handicapped from getting good results.


I don't know the details of your project so no comment.   

[hum4god]

Hi Kevin

i agree , and that is why i like the tact or deqx , because it can correct for phase time and frequency, at least to some degree, making the driver applicable over a wider range of freq.
otherwise it sounds like you need a 4/5/6 way speaker to cover the whole freq. range.
i am curious what drivers you favor in what setup ?

malcolm

[DanTheMan]

Crossover details, pics, etc.? 

-Jim

Crossover is but a work in progress--slow progress.  Right now it's asymmetrical at approx 1600Hz, but the response is flatter than the posted graph. 

The tweeter response looks more like this now:



I only measured to 45 degrees off axis b/c that's all the further I could keep the impu;se clean at the 5ft distance.  Even at 45 degrees I got a touch of reflection.

I'd take pics, but they are U G L Y!  I'm actually going to get then in a nice box before I finish the crossover work.  I've unfortunately been too happy with the sound to mess with them much.  I need to get discontent!

[JoshK]

I agree with Kevin, from the point of view that speaker design is a set of design compromises.  I think about the problem from an engineer's perspective as well.  However, where I likely part ways with Kevin is in the order of priorities.

I've heard really good implementations of 6" two ways, whether it be TM, MTM, TMM, none have floated my boat.  You get a "nice" presentation with the best of them, but there is always something missing.  I couldn't put my finger on it until hearing a large format, higher sensitivity 2 way speaker like that of Geddes' Summas, Tannoys or even an older 3 way Klipsch with all their warts (they trade one problem for another IMO). 

There is a lack of effort to the sound of these larger, higher efficiency speakers that is really addictive.  It was that je ne se quoi that I couldn't put my finger on before.  Others might find fault while listening to these speakers, because we each have our own set of priorities, but these hit closer to mine then any 6" 2way I've heard to date.

I am pretty much going on faith with my current horn project.  Its an experiment, but I do have some expectations that it will work out given what I've learned to date.

**I throw out the example of the 6" 2-way, but in reality it has been pretty much any speaker with a 1" dome tweeter from memory. 

[Kevin Haskins]

I agree with Kevin, from the point of view that speaker design is a set of design compromises.  I think about the problem from an engineer's perspective as well.  However, where I likely part ways with Kevin is in the order of priorities.

I've heard really good implementations of 6" two ways, whether it be TM, MTM, TMM, none have floated my boat.  You get a "nice" presentation with the best of them, but there is always something missing.  I couldn't put my finger on it until hearing a large format, higher sensitivity 2 way speaker like that of Geddes' Summas, Tannoys or even an older 3 way Klipsch with all their warts (they trade one problem for another IMO). 

There is a lack of effort to the sound of these larger, higher efficiency speakers that is really addictive.  It was that je ne se quoi that I couldn't put my finger on before.  Others might find fault while listening to these speakers, because we each have our own set of priorities, but these hit closer to mine then any 6" 2way I've heard to date.

I am pretty much going on faith with my current horn project.  Its an experiment, but I do have some expectations that it will work out given what I've learned to date.

**I throw out the example of the 6" 2-way, but in reality it has been pretty much any speaker with a 1" dome tweeter from memory.

I always attributed the "ease" with the larger drivers.... say 12" or 15" pro-sound drivers or horn loaded enclosures that have high efficiency in the midbass and above.    I think that is probably where we get our sense of scale of dynamics.... the insane pressure changes that instantly change with a good horn loaded system.    The high frequencies are almost never your limiting factor unless you are doing something screwy so a slightly horn-loaded 1" dome should be capable of much more headroom than any typical 6" mid-woofer as a direct radiator.    If I were designing a mega dynamics horn... I'd use a compression driver.   

But we are just talking in generalizations and I agree.... you need lots of cone area or horn loading to get massive dynamics.   That translates to larger enclosures, more complexity, more cost and of course you are trading off other attributes.   

There is not a one size fits all loudspeaker.   I design around my own desires primarily so most of what I'm chasing has to do with my own personal priorities.    Different strokes for different folks. 

[JoshK]

I always attributed the "ease" with the larger drivers.... say 12" or 15" pro-sound drivers or horn loaded enclosures that have high efficiency in the midbass and above.   

Indeed, larger more efficient drivers sound very different to my ears than smaller ones, even multiples of smaller ones.  Not precisely sure why, but that has been my subjective take thus far.  I have not found however, that larger non-efficient drivers also sound this way.  Typically, I've found low efficiency large format woofers to sound extremely overdamped and very dull in comparison.  This in multi-ways.  Whether the dome tweeter had anything to do with it, I don't know.  Doubtful.

[JoshK]

Have I share this link before?  I may have.

http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/

Some good audio porn there.

I ordered a pair of the horns pictured in one of the latest blogs.  Along with some custom done OS/LeCleach hybrid waveguides.  I am going down the slippery horn slope.

I haven't figured out what I want to do below the 140hz horn.  Initially, my bass bins (TD15X +PR)s will be used.  I am planning to finish 4 mini tapped horns (volvotreter's 38hz TH) for distributed bass, Geddes' style.   This may be high enough to cross directly to the 140hz horns with shallow slope, but I have half a mind to build a 60hz J horn.

I am a single man now (long story), so I have the opportunity to do as I may. 

[jimdgoulding]

Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.

[jimdgoulding]

Just so you know, I wasn't tryin to be a groove buster here.  It was an honest question.  I say this cause there have been no replies and thought maybe my question or statement might have been taken a wrong way.

[Kevin Haskins]

Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.

Anything that changes the response and the polar response is going to have a subjective impact.    I don't think there is one subjective attribute that you can always hang on the use of a horn.   It just depends on the type, implementation and a whole host of factors.   

Clearly.... just using a very simple horn to control high frequency dispersion is different than an entire horn-loaded system.   The deeper a horn gets and the more complex the acoustic pathways the more complex the issues so I'm in the camp of using them for some simple response shaping.   I use them to achieve an objective... a measured one that hopefully translates to a subjective one based upon the research of what we know is audible.    I'm also a big believer in the KISS principle.... don't complicate things unless it clearly achieves something worth the extra complication.   

[DanTheMan]

Do horns or guides put a signature on the sound?  I've only owned stats and speaks with surface mounted HF domes.  These have let me hear the ambience or characteristics of a setting when it is in a recording from recording to recording.  Hornspeakers or ones with guides and have always made me think that I was hearing something that the speakers were doing, not what the recording was doing.  I can think of an example recently where every recording sounded as tho it was recorded in a hall whether it was or not.  This "cast", for lack of a better word, is what I'm inquiring about.  Do you recognize what I am trying to describe and is it characteristic of this type of speaker?  If so, how is it dealt with?  Thanks.

Sorry I didn't see this response earlier.  I would have responded.

The closets I have gotten to the recording is easily with my latest project.  I can't say I've had or even heard anything in it's league before as far as reproducing the recording.  You can see though that I still have some issues in the response above 8 kHz.  Fortunately that's where are hearing starts getting worse anyway.  Still I hope to smooth it out as high fidelity is the goal.  The other issue I have is below 100Hz.  My response starts its roll off there. 

The only thing I can surely say is that its character is less that other speakers I've heard and I think that's mostly d/t the constant directivity behavior.  One thing I have heard is when I tried to use a lower order filter, there was a horn sound and it isn't a good thing.  Seemed to bark and howl like a wolf.  My best guess is that I was just pushing the compression driver beyond what it can do as I'm crossover over below where the manufacturer recommends.  Right now it's got a 5th order filter on it.

Dan

[jimdgoulding]

Thanks, fellas.  If I hear you right, it depends on the execution but there is a potential for this.  Supposed to get a listen to Duke's six piece system pretty soon now.  And from a cat who sold his big Sound Labs.  I'm thinkin Duke's system has wider dynamic range than the SL's.  It's the what else I hope to experience, also.  Get to bring some of my own records.  Trust me, I'm excited.