Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"

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Aether Audio

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« on: 12 Jun 2006, 02:45 pm »
Folks,

It has come to my attention that the most recent batch of Timepieces that have gone out may have an issue that requires my attention.  One pair went to Double Ugly, one to Russell Dawkins, one to Kenyyuan and one to Carlman - amongst a couple of other pairs.

The reports follow a trend described as follows: 

At first, the tweeter seems a bit "recessed."  We have experienced this ourselves, but after a period of break-in they open up.  At this point resolution and detail begins to increase and according to some - continues to do so for several months.  This is good.

But lately, a second phenomenon has begun to rear its ugly head.  After this initial breakin period, a "harshness" settles in that doesn't seem to subside.  This is bad...and is completely out of character for our designs.

Therefore, I will be investigating this to determine what has gone awry.  In this most recent "batch" we had made a couple of part changes to new components in the crossover.  I suspect these are the culprits.

For all the above mentioned parties....you will note that the tweeter still retains a very high power handling capacity.  Were any such harshness to be the result of the tweeter's excursion limits being encroached upon, dynamic compression/distortion and ultimate device failure would result once power levels were pushed much beyond "average" levels.  Seeing that this is not the case, something else that is not related to driver behavior is most likely at work here.  Although rumor has it that Tymphany has now outsourced even the ScanSpeak line to China, we have not observed any change in this recent batch of tweeters' characteristic responses.

That being said, and the fact that we did change a couple of critical parts in the tweeter path, I suspect these new parts are the source of this phenomenon.  It is likely that during the break-in period either a certain capacitor is significantly changing values or its dielectric is breaking down on voltage peaks.  Either of these would definitely lead to the reported sonics coming in from the field.

Regardless, we wanted to give everyone a "heads-up" and to reassure all that whatever the case may be, we will be getting to the bottom of it.  Whatever changes that may be required to correct this will be provided at no cost to the customer.

Please bear with us.  I will be posting results of my investigations in the coming days.

-Bob
« Last Edit: 24 Jun 2006, 08:26 pm by Double Ugly »

Karsten

Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #1 on: 12 Jun 2006, 06:11 pm »
I may add that my prototype Revelations featuring the ScanSpeak tweeter did go through a phase where they were not too friendly in the highs. It was especially with female voices and it sounded like a certain frq. went a little crazy. This did however cure itself over a relativly long period of time so it must have been some sort of a break-in issue. Now the set is nice and smooth but still revealing like no other speaker I have ever heard.

Well I understand that cross over components has been changed so this may have something to do with it as well.

Karsten

Bill Baker

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #2 on: 12 Jun 2006, 06:53 pm »
I have a pair of Continuums here that have the latest crossover and tweeter updates. I did not have them while in the break-in process but will add that I experience no aggression or harshness whatsoever. Just simply stunning upper end detail and extension. I must have received them well after this time period in the break-in process.

Hantra

Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #3 on: 12 Jun 2006, 10:18 pm »
That's good to know.  I heard one of the pair in question and right off the bat I heard exactly that.

Bica

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Re: Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #4 on: 12 Jun 2006, 11:53 pm »
Quote from: SP Pres

...Although rumor has it that Tymphany has now outsourced even the ScanSpeak line to China...


I am hoping that this is just a rumor. I still don't understand why so many companies would put their core competency at risk by such extreme cost cutting measures.

Double Ugly

Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #5 on: 13 Jun 2006, 12:07 am »
Did you experience any of this "harshness" or "hardness" with your 2.1s Bica?  

I know you received your speakers with a few hours on them, so maybe it wasn't an issue for you.

Bica

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #6 on: 13 Jun 2006, 03:27 am »
Quote from: Double Ugly
Did you experience any of this "harshness" or "hardness" with your 2.1s Bica?  

I know you received your speakers with a few hours on them, so maybe it wasn't an issue for you.


No. But even though my Timepeices had had some hours on them, they still took some time to settle after I set them up. And after the recent refinishing (to piano lacquer and beveled front baffle sides), I found they required a few days to re-settle. I did take out the drivers and crossovers for refinishing the cabinet.

If any of you could let me know on which tracks you encountered the issue, I will verify from here--I think this would be an effective way to compare notes on a forum, i.e., to be very specific, down to the CD/track played.

Aether Audio

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #7 on: 16 Jun 2006, 03:39 pm »
Friends,

Well...the verdict is in - and it ain't perty.  Seems like I have a personal issue of having to do everything in a "big way" - especially when I screw up. :roll:

The story goes like this:

During the recent build of this last batch of Timepieces that went out, I had a little time to do some experimentation.  I've always wanted to look a little more deeply into the damping material we've been using in a certain tweeter sub-chamber.  You know...ongoing product improvement - it's always a good thing - right?

Well...we found a new material that definitely made an improvement with regards to unwanted resonances.  OK - lets use it.  It was a relatively simple change to implement before the new batch went out.  There was a side effect though - it caused a small 1dB drop-off in the tweeter's bottom-end response, right in the crossover region.

No big deal.  Just tweak a couple part values to flatten the response again.  Yeah, right.  In my grand assessment of the matter I assumed that it shouldn't make much difference in the electrical impedance response, so I didn't bother to take the time to measure it.  It's a bit of a hassle to change the set-up and re-calibrate, and I was in a hurry (as always).  Well, you know what they say about the word "assume."  Stupid man. :nono: And I'm the first to bitch at the other guys in our shop about doing the same thing in their areas!

The upshot is that making that change had a major effect on changing the electrical phase angle of the impedance.  We're talking a huge negative value.  That means a highly capacitive load at about 500Hz.  To be specific for the "techies" out there, you can well imagine what a -56 degree phase angle will do to an amp - regardless of actual impedance magnitude.

For the non-technical, I'll try to explain.  In a purely capacitive circuit being driven by a sine wave, the current delivered by the amp leads the voltage output by 90 degrees.  That means that when the current drawn by the capacitor is at its greatest peak value, the amp is not putting out any voltage to drive the current into the capacitor.  That means a major conflict and sort of a "tug of war" going on between the load and the amp driving it.  This is not good for any amp - even those of the most robust current capability - although that type will handle the situation better than any other.

Nevertheless, a highly capacitive circuit is not good for any amp.  As the electrical phase angle of the load gets closer to approaching -90 degrees, the amp has to progressively work harder and under high power conditions, can actually cause the amp to get hot and either thermal out and shut down...or blow up. :| In practice, the negative phase angle should never exceed -45 degrees and in all actuality shouldn't even approach that.  A good rule of thumb is that -30 degrees should be the maximum.

Now days most modern amps have "current limit" circuits to protect them from such conditions, which would also include an accidental short circuit on the amp's output.  Every time such current limiting "kicks in"...all bets are off with regards to the resulting waveform resembling anything of "fidelity."  In fact, we're talking absolute "butt ugly" when that happens.  Most current limit circuits don't shut the amp down - they just "clip" the driving signal from the driver stage to the output stage for the duration of the waveform that represents an excess of current draw by the load (speaker).  This can happen for every half-cycle of the waveform at whatever frequency(ies) the condition exists.

In the case of these most recent Timepieces, that condition could exist in a narrow band, either side of 500Hz.  Because that band is actually quite narrow and the power density of music is not very high in that region, the amp driving them is unlikely to experience much excess heating or be at risk of any failure.  But...if any such current limit circuits were to be "tickled" into turning on, the result would definitely be a "hard" or "forward" sound.  Not only would the certain frequency be slightly "clipped," but doing so would generate higher frequency harmonic distortion products that could be audible for at least out to 3 KHz or so.

Even if any such current limit circuits were not engaged at any time, the amp's damping factor would be greatly reduced allowing the LC resonant components of the crossover to "ring" right in the 500Hz range.  That would generate a very forward "honky" sound - sort of like the "cupped hand/megaphone effect.

So...if that's the sound you guys were hearing, you can thank ol' dumb-arse - yours truly. :mrgreen:  :oops:  :slap:

In summary, the auditions by Carlman, Kenyyuan et.al. were nigh unto a waste of their time.  In the last three days I have completely corrected the issue and now the worst-case negative phase angle is -26 degrees...less than half that of what this last batch had.  That is a major improvement and will make the Timepieces a relatively easy load for most any amp.  Not only that, but we achieved an even flatter response than before.  Believe me...with this correction installed the Timepieces will sound almost like completely different speakers.

So, all of the last batch of Timepieces need to come back to the factory for this correction.  If the above-mentioned guys don't want to bother with a second go-around audition, I completely understand.  Please accept my apologies though, as I'm sure you can imagine this situation was not intentional.  For those that want to send their units back, we'll work out the details on an individual basis.

I will be posting graphs of the "before" and "after" impedance plots soon so those interested can see for themselves.

-Bob :oops:

Hantra

Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #8 on: 16 Jun 2006, 03:54 pm »
Bob:

How would impedance issues such as this affect an amplifier with an autoformer?  

Just curious, as I understood autoformers to make an amplifier see the same load regardless.  But I don't know the in's and out's.

Thanks!

Aether Audio

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #9 on: 16 Jun 2006, 09:55 pm »
Hantra,

You're correct about the autoformer - the load from a "delivered power" standpoint would be the same.  Although...it does raise the over-all impedance and thereby reduce current draw from the amp.  That being said, with the problematic Timepiece issue it would probably help a bit.  My tendancy is to suspect that one would loose a smidgen of potential detail and resolution with such a device, but in this case that would be more than offset by the reduced current load on the amp.

Nevertheless, regardless of all the above, the situation with the screwed up Timepieces wouldn't be helped very much with an autoformer anyway.  As I said, maybe a bit but there's still the excess negative phase angle/excess capacitance issue.  A properly designed autoformer wouldn't/shouldn't change that one bit.  The total impedance magnitude would be scaled up by the windings ratio of the thing, but all phase angles would remain the same.

Let's put it this way.  Say we had nothing but a pure capacitor connected across the output of our amp.  Then let's say that at 1KHz (you have to pick a frequency) the capacitive reactance it exhibits would be 4-ohms/-90 degrees.  Then we hook up the capacitor to an autoformer that doubles the reactance to 8-ohms.  So what?  The phase angle would still be -90 degrees.  The amp is still forced to drive a pure capacitive reactance that sucks current out of the amp at periods in the 1 KHz waveform cycle (once every half-cycle) when the amp's output voltage is essentially "zero."  Raising the magnitude to 8-ohms would help a little, but the amp would still be working its butt off trying to drive it.

Upshot:  An autoformer is far from a cure for a crap speaker design.  If the speaker's impedance was dominated by pure resistance as in say...a sloppy ribbon - then it could be a huge help - and that's why you see transformers designed into such devices.  But a crap design with large amounts of reactance?  Fogeddaboutit!  

Oh, just in case anyone thinks I have any vanity left...the most recent five pairs of Timepieces we shipped ARE crap speakers! :banghead: ...at least from an electrical engineering standpoint.

If I could afford to hire another engineer, I'd fire myself! :cuss:

-Bob

Skynyrd

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #10 on: 16 Jun 2006, 11:20 pm »
Bob,

Thanks for your self-flagellation, it is refreshing to see an audio geek engineer admit a foible.

I'm sure the problem will be remedied.  Nice to see you don't blame your customers.

Skynyrd

audiojerry

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Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #11 on: 17 Jun 2006, 01:28 am »
Don't ya just love this guy?
You're spoiling Trump's fun, Bob.

Hantra

Investigating Reports of Tweeter "Harshness"
« Reply #12 on: 17 Jun 2006, 01:49 am »
Good explanation Bob.  Thanks!

Also, don't be too hard on yourself about it.  We all screw up.