The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?

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Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #20 on: 18 Mar 2011, 03:14 pm »

...many of the so-called "high res" downloads available today - from some big name "audiophile" sources - are in fact upsampled Redbook and not genuine high res.


I think this is a very important point.....

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #21 on: 18 Mar 2011, 03:21 pm »

The digital recording (and release) process continues to evolve. A properly done SACD or 24/192 recording played back properly will leave any current consumer analogue format eating sonic dust.

debatable obviously.  System dependent as Woodsyi just confirmed....


bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #22 on: 18 Mar 2011, 04:01 pm »
While I'd certainly agree about properly done 24/192, I wouldn't agree with regard to SACD.

Analog tape does not have the "silent scream" in the high treble that some folks (myself included) find discomforting with SACD.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #23 on: 18 Mar 2011, 04:31 pm »
Silent scream is a great way to describe it.  Barry, what artifact in SACD drives that?  My speaker has a tweeter that extends out to 40kHz and it is fairly revealing of bad recordings particularly in the higher frequencies....

THROWBACK

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #24 on: 18 Mar 2011, 04:39 pm »
I downloaded the 1st Movement of the Mahler 5th Symphony from San Francisco at 24/96 and I like it pretty well. These are SACD recordings transferred to PCM. I could definitely live with that. Things might even get better when it's all one format.

bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #25 on: 18 Mar 2011, 05:18 pm »
Hi Geardaddy,

Silent scream is a great way to describe it.  Barry, what artifact in SACD drives that?  My speaker has a tweeter that extends out to 40kHz and it is fairly revealing of bad recordings particularly in the higher frequencies....

The recording format uses a type of noise shaping that puts a great deal of the stuff up around 30 kHz (visible in a spectral view as a not so narrow garbage peak).  Of course, I'm not hearing that sort of frequency but it appears to have no problem intermodulating down into the audible range.

By the time we get to the high treble, I'm not sure this format has greater than 1 bit resolution.

Just my perspective of course.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

skunark

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #26 on: 18 Mar 2011, 05:30 pm »
Even if we consider dynamic range, from this standpoint, having the noise floor 96 dB down from max level, as it is (in theory) with 16-bits, sounds more than adequate, particularly for most pop recordings where the real dynamic range of the final result rarely gets much past 12 dB and if often (scarily!) less.

Barry,

So is the 12gb range more or less related to the loudness wars or just the style of the "pop" recordings?  We all recognize the quality of the mastering is key, but maybe some style of music will lend itself better to HiRez Audio than others..

bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #27 on: 18 Mar 2011, 06:28 pm »
Hi skunark,

Barry,

So is the 12gb range more or less related to the loudness wars or just the style of the "pop" recordings?  We all recognize the quality of the mastering is key, but maybe some style of music will lend itself better to HiRez Audio than others..

In my experience, this is definitely a function of the loudness wars.
Actually, 12 dB might be a bit generous based on much of the stuff I've been seeing.

Mastering certainly is key.  The original recording even moreso (it provides the "ceiling" for how good a recording can possibly be).

My view is that any type or style of music can benefit from high res.  It is just that pop/rock tends to get the worst recording/mixing/mastering -- though the "style" has been infecting all sorts of musical genres in the past few years... all sorts.

I very much believe there is no good reason in the Universe that a "power" rock recording cannot sound convincing in the same way a good symphonic recording can.  The mics and the rest of the gear don't "know" the musical style of the sounds they are capturing.  We bring the same pair of ears to hear a power trio that we do to a string quartet performance (though I need to use ear protection at the former - not due to the players but because of the PA system and what the "sound man" does).

In fact, I'm working on a few rock projects (among others) for Soundkeeper.  If I deem the performances and the recordings good enough to release, there will be 24/192 (and 24/96) versions.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Robin Hood

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #28 on: 18 Mar 2011, 06:34 pm »
I think Acousence Records sums it up nicely - maximize content and minimize noise

Content:

http://www.acousence.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=47%3Adigital-dvdflac&layout=blog&Itemid=60&lang=en

and

Noise:

http://www.acousence.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=64%3Asacd&layout=blog&Itemid=60&lang=en

Looking at this charts, 24/96 and SACD (DSD64) leave something to be desired and anything less is just that, less.  So analog, 24/176.4+ PCM and DSD128 are the top hi rez formats that can live up to the hype and these links help explain why.

Mike Nomad

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #29 on: 18 Mar 2011, 07:46 pm »
debatable obviously.  System dependent as Woodsyi just confirmed....

As to the first comment, hardly. What parts of "properly done" and "played back properly" sound obviously debatable? The second comment re: Woodsyi's & system dependencies are _part_ of the point. Current tech is better than the older stuff. If it's not applied properly bad stuff result. Just like what happens with the use of _any_ tool set.

(grrr... just timed out)...

+1 on the idea that there is no hype. The tech delivers.

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #30 on: 18 Mar 2011, 10:07 pm »
Robin Hood, thanks for the links.  Based on graph #2, which depicts energy scatter of an impulse, one would conclude that analog is still the optimal medium.  Presumably, finding a "digital" technology that allows true imprinting the analog form without resorting to digital reconstruction would be ideal.

I gather from this thread that no one has done a recent A+B of analog tape versus hi rez?  Barry, are your observations based on sonic memory?  I presume so.  I will be acquiring a modified deck (no output transformers, etc) in the not too distant future along with a DAC based that is centered on an AKM chip used in a million dollar console and not simply a prosumer or consumer dac chip.  I will hopefully be able to do a few shootouts and report back.... 8)

Nomad, please provide examples of properly done material and proper playback equipment.

Mike Nomad

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #31 on: 18 Mar 2011, 11:29 pm »
Robin Hood, thanks for the links.  Based on graph #2, which depicts energy scatter of an impulse, one would conclude that analog is still the optimal medium.  Presumably, finding a "digital" technology that allows true imprinting the analog form without resorting to digital reconstruction would be ideal.

I gather from this thread that no one has done a recent A+B of analog tape versus hi rez?  Barry, are your observations based on sonic memory?  I presumed so.  I will be acquiring a modified deck (no output transformers, etc) in the not too distant future along with a DAC based that is centered on an AKM chip used in a million dollar console and not simply a prosumer or consumer dac chip.  I will hopefully be able to do a few shootouts and report back.... 8)

Nomad, please provide examples of properly done material and proper playback equipment.

On the material side, there are the two CDs I already mentioned. For more Redbook material (off the top of my head), I'd add Roberta Flack's Quiet Fire; Steve Hoffman's DCC gold disc for Jethro Tull's Original Masters; The live '64 & '65 (mono) stuff that showed up on The Bob Dylan Genuine Bootleg Series (which are not the CBS/Sony released sets); Glyn John's Work Tape of Stone's material 1969-1970; The Grateful Dead's studio tapes from August 1973...

For mid-rez (24/96), a couple of DAD come to mind: Armstrong/Ellington's The Complete Sessions; The Jimmy Rushing All Stars' Gee, Baby Ain't I Good To You. Other material includes The Grateful Dead's American Beauty, along with their April 1971 run at the Fillmore East.

For hi-rez (24/192, DVD-A, SACD), there's The JP 24/192 DVD-A of Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section; The JP SACD of the Stone's Sticky Fingers; A number of Miles Davis titles (three easy ones: Big Fun; Kind Of Blue; 'Round About Midnight); Janos Starker's Bach Solo Cello Suites; Markus Groh's Brahms' Late Piano Pieces.

Which is all irrelevant. You aren't getting your hands on the masters of these recordings, nor are _the same versions_ available across a sufficient number of formats. The closest you are going to get to meaningful, matched pairs is the Art Pepper disc I mentioned, Steely Dan's Gaucho, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer. I haven't mentioned the Dan & Waters discs because I'm still not sure of some of the things I'm hearing.

The equipment request is equally pointless: First and foremost, you are at the mercy of the room. I can recommend all kinds of gear, and all of it was not heard in the same room, etc. Also, some of the tweaks are no longer available. Name dropping: Audio Quest, BEL, EMM-Labs, Goertz, JBL, KEF, Lockheed, McIntosh, Motorola, PSB, Vandersteen...

Frankly, all of this is a diversion. A given format's numbers speak for themselves. At best, the first thing being tested is your equipment's ability to make an accurate recording of a recording.

« Last Edit: 3 Jan 2015, 04:39 am by Mike Nomad »

bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #32 on: 19 Mar 2011, 12:45 am »
Hi Geardaddy,

Robin Hood, thanks for the links.  Based on graph #2, which depicts energy scatter of an impulse, one would conclude that analog is still the optimal medium.  Presumably, finding a "digital" technology that allows true imprinting the analog form without resorting to digital reconstruction would be ideal.

An impulse is but one of a great many aspects of what a recorder (analog or digital) captures. 


I gather from this thread that no one has done a recent A+B of analog tape versus hi rez?  Barry, are your observations based on sonic memory?  I presume so.

Actually that isn't correct.  While most of what I currently work on is digitally sourced, I have not been completely away from analog tape, played on Studer, MCI and Ampex machines.  (Haven't seen a Sculley in a while.)

Analog 1/2" at 30 ips can do some wonderful things.  But I've never felt it sounded like my mic feed.  Never felt that way about digital either, until I heard the ULN-8 doing 24/192.


I will be acquiring a modified deck (no output transformers, etc) in the not too distant future along with a DAC based that is centered on an AKM chip used in a million dollar console and not simply a prosumer or consumer dac chip.  I will hopefully be able to do a few shootouts and report back.... 8)...

Some very good gear uses AKM chips (including my ULN-8).  But I would not expect its inclusion to necessarily mean a device will be wonderful.  I've heard some pretty awful gear that used great parts. 

The ingredients don't make the soup; they only suggest its potential.  The wrong chef can make something quite bad; the right chef can turn it into edible art.  It is the totality we experience, not the parts.

Just my perspective, of course.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #33 on: 19 Mar 2011, 01:32 am »

Actually that isn't correct.  While most of what I currently work on is digitally sourced, I have not been completely away from analog tape, played on Studer, MCI and Ampex machines.  (Haven't seen a Sculley in a while.)

Analog 1/2" at 30 ips can do some wonderful things.  But I've never felt it sounded like my mic feed.  Never felt that way about digital either, until I heard the ULN-8 doing 24/192.


Fair enough Barry.  I respect that.  That was what I was waiting to hear.  Actually, I was looking at a modded Scully.  They are beasts (size wise).  That is the only downside.  I will have to await my finished sound room/man cave.  Anyway, when people talk about saturation and analog tape, what exactly are they talking about?  I also know musician types who feel that state that digital offerings as a whole are surgical sounding and lacking in soul.  After hearing a family friend play his antique French piano (whose name escapes me), I was reminded how limited digital playback is in rendering that natural resonance and timbre. 

I have a friend who is also a recording engineer who is one of those purists who loves tubed mics, the Neve console, and hates Protools.  I am sure you come across this philosophy.  He is also, not surprisingly, an analog tape head. 

In terms of implementation and dac chips, yes indeed.  You can still create a turd out of gold.  Time will tell.  The manufacturer is a master of power supplies, so that should be additive if you believe some of Nordosts recent research on power and jitter.  I remember you told me that a linear supply on your ULN-8 had no benefit over the native switching supply which is a little surprising. 

Nomad, I have some Hoffman recordings, including the gold cd of Tull, and I must say, I am less than wowed.  I know he does have a following.  Must be a system resolution thing as you suggested.  One of the best Redbook recordings I own is Touching Folklore, by Mario Suzuki.  McFabulous.  For better or worse, I love the Dead and have a lot of hippy, jam band, live recordings.  I will have to check out the 24/96 of American Beauty. 

Robin Hood

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #34 on: 19 Mar 2011, 02:10 am »
Quote
Analog 1/2" at 30 ips can do some wonderful things.  But I've never felt it sounded like my mic feed.  Never felt that way about digital either, until I heard the ULN-8 doing 24/192.

Barry, on a scale of 1-10(best) how would you rank the sonic qualities of the ULN-8 for recording and the sonic qualities of the ULN-8 for playback?

One of the albums for purchase was done at 24/192 and the other album was done at 24/96.  Why was the Lift album limited to 24/96 since you are using a 24/192 recorder?

Can you provide a list of hi rez albums that you feel lives up to hi rez hype?

Mike Nomad

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #35 on: 19 Mar 2011, 03:48 am »
Nomad, I have some Hoffman recordings, including the gold cd of Tull, and I must say, I am less than wowed.  I know he does have a following.  Must be a system resolution thing as you suggested.  One of the best Redbook recordings I own is Touching Folklore, by Mario Suzuki.  McFabulous.  For better or worse, I love the Dead and have a lot of hippy, jam band, live recordings.  I will have to check out the 24/96 of American Beauty.

The Tull has problems. I included it because, from the transferring it to digital disc perspective, it was done right: Anderson's masters where used as the source. The problems I hear (at least) are with the original mix and recording: dense and slightly dull. However, I have never heard another release that has all the detail, or is as balanced. Hoffman has done other stuff that sounds a lot better. I didn't include his gold disc of the first Leon Russell record, and I should have (that's the problem with pulling titles off the top of my head). His Elvis Presley 24K hits disc is, in spots, a little too good. Literally too much information. Like being able to sit in a couple of different spots in the studio at the same time. Zappa's early 90's re-issues & new releases that came out on Barking Pumpkin before they went to Ryko. All the BP releases were straight off the masters.

The MoFi aluminum disc of Ryan Adams first record is another one I just thought of...

I've heard others mention Mario Suzuki. I'll have to check out the disc you mentioned.

I didn't realize the thread was to include studio gear. I spent a lot of time bringing back an RCA 1" 3-track from the grave. The tube amps sounded wonderful.

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #36 on: 19 Mar 2011, 05:02 am »
Nomad, dense and slightly dull is a perfect description of the Tull recording.  I have also had the "too much information" experience.  The data is somehow not integrated properly and there is a lack of flow or cohesiveness.  I will have to track down the Zappa.  I am a big Zappa fan, but all my recordings disappeared after college.

In light of this discussion, it is funny to watch generation Y and younger buying vinyl.  One of my wife's brothers is actively buying vinyl and wearing his bell bottoms.  I myself missed analog tape by a few years (42 going on 43), but I am drawn to it.  We will see.  It will be an experiment.  The French designer of my front end mocked me and said using analog tape would be like taking a horse to the supermarket.  Maybe that's what my brain needs in this frenetic day and age.  Slow down.... 8)
 

bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #37 on: 19 Mar 2011, 11:35 am »
Hi Geardaddy,

...when people talk about saturation and analog tape, what exactly are they talking about?  I also know musician types who feel that state that digital offerings as a whole are surgical sounding and lacking in soul.  After hearing a family friend play his antique French piano (whose name escapes me), I was reminded how limited digital playback is in rendering that natural resonance and timbre.


Saturation on analog tape refers to the magnetic particles being "filled" to capacity (level-wise).  Careful listeners will notice this occurs first in the higher frequencies.

It sounds like the musician you know, who feels digital is "surgical sounding and lacking in soul" is either talking about early digital or some not very good digital gear.  (Perhaps you can point them to some samples on the Soundkeeper site.  But then again, if the gear isn't up to snuff, it won't matter.)

Personally, I would not say the best digital playback today, particularly at higher word lengths and sample rates than CD, is at all limited at rendering resonance and timbre.  (Note, this is from someone who sat on an AES panel of mastering engineers in  the mid-'80s and was the only voice in the room that said what we had was inferior to decent analog.)


...I have a friend who is also a recording engineer who is one of those purists who loves tubed mics, the Neve console, and hates Protools.  I am sure you come across this philosophy.  He is also, not surprisingly, an analog tape head.
 

Every person in audio, whether audiophile or pro, seems to have a different approach.  For me, tube mics offer pleasant colorations but colorations nonetheless.  I've never heard one "disappear".  I find Neve consoles only slightly less of a massacre to audio than any other console I've heard; certainly not the worst but again, a coloration -- good if that is what one seeks, not good if one seeks only the sound of the event.  And the issue with ProTools, in my view, is less the software than the fact that they (used to) lock the user into their own hardware.  For software, I find the $40 Reaper tends to make many multi-thousand dollar applications sound like they need some more work.


...In terms of implementation and dac chips, yes indeed.  You can still create a turd out of gold.  Time will tell.  The manufacturer is a master of power supplies, so that should be additive if you believe some of Nordosts recent research on power and jitter.  I remember you told me that a linear supply on your ULN-8 had no benefit over the native switching supply which is a little surprising.
 

I don't find it surprising at all.  Again, the parts don't matter, it is the topology of the whole design we listen to.  While a linear supply will be "better" than a switching supply in theory, if I gave you a fine linear supply and a fine switching supply, you would hear no difference --- in fact, you would hear nothing at all because a supply by itself won't work.  It must be part of a whole design.  B.J., the designer of the ULN-8 has done such an outstanding (and in my experience, unparalleled) job, adding a linear supply did not change the sound over his switching supply.  I've said before, I wouldn't care if he used bird nests and baling wire inside.  I'm only concerned with what happens when I play music through it.  And there, so far at least, I have not heard anything that approaches it.  (There isn't much gear I rave about but after close to three decades of digital headaches, the sun has finally risen.  Never before this have I gotten back the sound of my mics.  The only problem I have now is that I can no longer blame the gear for any flaws in my recordings.  ;-})

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com


bdiament

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Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #38 on: 19 Mar 2011, 11:53 am »
Hi Robin Hood,

Barry, on a scale of 1-10(best) how would you rank the sonic qualities of the ULN-8 for recording and the sonic qualities of the ULN-8 for playback?

I have participated in blind comparisons of A/D/A converters that included all of the "contenders" of which I'm aware.  (Those tests involved a set of three files from each converter - encodings from a rock, jazz and classical analog master, using some of the finest recordings around.  None of the participants knew what we were listening to until after we'd provided their feedback on what we heard.)

To my surprise, picking a favorite was quite easy, for me and apparently for the other folks in the test.  It always turned out to be the ULN-8.
Of course, I really didn't know what this box could do until I made my own recordings with it and my own transfers from material where I could compare the output with the input.

Without reservation, for my ears, the ULN-8 is a 10 for both recording and playback.  It might be an 11 as I'm still amazed at it every time I use it to record something new.


One of the albums for purchase was done at 24/192 and the other album was done at 24/96.  Why was the Lift album limited to 24/96 since you are using a 24/192 recorder?

The more recent album, "Equinox" was recorded last Summer with my ULN-8.
"Lift" was recorded in 2006, before I first got my ULN-8 for testing.   "Lift" was recorded in two different sessions.  For the first, I owned a Metric Halo 2882 (with max sample rate of 96k).  For the second, I had a Metric Halo ULN-2 on loan (with max sample rate of 96k).

When the ULN-8 was first release to testers, it too had a max sample rate of 96k.  The 4x (176.4 and 192k) capability was "turned on" later, with a firmware upgrade.  The first sessions I did after this were still done at 96k because it was a "known" and I wanted to do more experiments with 192k.  Those experiments sold me on 192 (with the ULN-8) as my working format.


Can you provide a list of hi rez albums that you feel lives up to hi rez hype?

I'm a big fan of Keith Johnson's work for Reference Recordings.  The first high res RR I got was "Crown Imperial".  I purchased the CD as well as the 24/176.4k version.  The comparison, as always, is quite informative.  I'm looking forward to getting the high res version of Eije Oue's take on "The Firebird" and "The Rite of Spring", which I have on CD - fabulous music, beautifully played and recorded.

And, if I may say so myself, I'm very proud of "Lift" at 24/96 and most proud of my most recent release, "Equinox", particularly at 192k.

It seems it is still early in the high res game.  I've encountered all too many so-called "high res" that is clearly sourced from Redbook, this from some "name" audiophile sources.  One actually responded to comments on another Web site, saying he deliberately filtered the highs on a high res source.  (Oh, now I understand.  He had a high res source and applied a brickwall filter at 22.05k because he felt it improved the sound.  :duh:)

Other sources actually claim their high res material is created for them by third parties.  (I suppose they don't have access to the free software that would let them know if the files were genuine... or the 10 or 15 seconds it would take to do so.  :duh:)

That's at least three "name" audiophile companies trying to pass this garbage off on their customers -- at premium prices relative to the versions not labeled "high res".  A fourth source has offered illegal "remasterings" which are in fact CDs in his collection to which he has applied EQ and resampling (though he claims he does not believe what he did was illegal).
Hopefully, the market will put all of these where they deserve to be.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Geardaddy

Re: The hi rez experience: does it live up to the hype and why?
« Reply #39 on: 19 Mar 2011, 02:00 pm »
Thanks Barry for taking the time to answer my questions.

Again, for me, one of the key take home messages is that not everything that is billed as hi rez is truly hi rez.  If I want a 24/192 piece, I want it recorded at 24/192 and not up-sampled. 

When I briefly owned the Emerald Physics speakers, I was looking at various front end options that would allow digital x-over manipulation, room correction, DA conversion and a pre-amp in a single box.  This was driven by Clayton Shaw's Spatial paradigm.  I was looking primarily at the Prism Orpheus.  Many other end users who had done shootouts felt the ULN-8 was too stark and made a lot of material sound less than pleasant.  On a similar note, a computer-based system at the recent Rocky Mountain used a box like yours.  They were playing a lot of hi rez.  Some people felt it was some of the best sound of the show.  Others felt it did not sound good at all and needed a tubed pre-amp, etc.   :scratch:

As for power supplies, I referenced the Nordost data (http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New%20Approaches%20To%20Audio%20Measurement.pdf + http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html) that showed the effect of cabling and power conditioning on jitter.   I know I have read similar things about the stability of power supplies and jitter and I will thus have to do more homework.  So, what makes a good switching supply?  I know a lot of audiophiles and computer-related manufacturers poo-poo them.