AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: 2bigears on 15 Apr 2008, 01:41 am
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:D need a TT for a start to none dig play-back.have a trans-DAC feeding a VAC pre with MM and MC,dna-500 feeding SP Revs.......need a TT that a person can set-up and run himself out of the box,and one that will fit the system.any help thks much as i really need to hear some sweeet vinyl...... :D
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what is mid-priced? does $1200 qualify? if so, better hurry! :wink:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1213283905
(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1208099815.jpg)
you missed out on one w/less tweaks & no arm, for $500 - a killer deal, to be sure.
if you need to spend less than $1200, i would recommend any of the wintage empire decks. the older non-suspended chasis models offer easier swap-out of better (ie: o-l modded rega rb250) tonearms...
doug s.
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the Marantz table sourced from Clearaudio is actually a bargin at $1500 ready to play. Alot of the term "mid priced" is somewhat vague. If it's $2500 then a VPI is well worth the look. If your thinking $3K; you might want to check out the Opera line. I bought one for less than $1700 set up for two arms (Graham or Rega). Not quite as nice as my Final Tool, but a bargin for the price when you think about adding an Origin tone arm to the $1700 price tag.
gary
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http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN
If you're new or returning to vinyl, you're stop here is likely worthwhile....and cheap and all set up, to boot. Just run it to your MM phono stage and you're off enjoying vinyl. You can always move up from here once you acclimate yourself to vinyl (again?)
Expect to hear your TransDac a lot less in the near future :wink:
John
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As those before said....what's your definition of 'Mid-Priced' ??
This forum has alot of supporters of the Technics DD variants, so help is always available there.
Myself, I'm a VPI guy, again plenty of options there as well.
Mail order offers good sources like........Acoustic Sounds(speak with Chad Stelly), Elusive disc, Music Direct, Todd the Vinyl Junkie, to name but a few.
For good "Plug 'n Play" options, tabels from ProJect and Music Hall will also give you many options in what ever your "mid" point is.
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:D thks guys,i am going this route as a result of a phrase from a certain close party saying he would be gone from audio not coming across that big old black disc,strong words indeed.i need to spin vinyl in the worst way now.i was told to go big or go home at a shop in the big city.he said spend 4k if you can and 6k would do it right.i thought that was kinda hi side ???? the less moves the better for sure,but i can't set up a hi end TT myself and that's for sure. :D
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i was told to go big or go home at a shop in the big city.he said spend 4k if you can and 6k would do it right.i thought that was kinda hi side ???? the less moves the better for sure,but i can't set up a hi end TT myself and that's for sure. :D
"Big City Boys with their Big City BS" !! You can easily accomplish puting together a very satisfy analog front end for ALOT less than 6k !
As far as set-up, pick up Mikey Fremers "21st Centurt Vinyl" DVD, a practical guide to TT set-up. It will help you overcome many ill-conceived fears !
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:D most grateful,take it slow is the path most people advise....is it a wonder the brick-and-mortar shops are on the death bed with stuff like this.a 6k baby step is harsh.i was thinking mid price was maybe 2 or 3k to get the feet wet with some good stuff.but,i really don't know two squeaks bout' the latest TT's ???? :D
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:D most grateful,take it slow is the path most people advise....is it a wonder the brick-and-mortar shops are on the death bed with stuff like this.a 6k baby step is harsh.i was thinking mid price was maybe 2 or 3k to get the feet wet with some good stuff.but,i really don't know two squeaks bout' the latest TT's ???? :D
Pat,
I was in exactly the same boat in terms of my setup abilities and rather intimidated by it. I bought a nice used VPI Scoutmaster and upgraded it piece by piece from there as budget allowed. It is ridiculously easy to set up as TT's go, even for a TT dunce like me. I bought a HFN&RR disc, $30 Chinese digital stylus guage, and just used the other alignment tools supplied with the VPI TT. The newer MF DVD is probably a great bet too. Even the little fulcrum type Shure stylus gauge is close enough for most needs. I found it was really all about getting the basics right first. I also had a Sota Star that was the same way (easy). Linns LP12's are nice too but a dealer is highly desirable, at least at first. All are highly available at reasonable cost used. Good luck!
Tom
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if you need to spend less than $1200, i would recommend any of the vintage empire decks. the older non-suspended chasis models offer easier swap-out of better (ie: o-l modded rega rb250) tonearms...
doug s.
i hope that's right because that's what i did. found a 208 with no arm for a reasonable price...it's moving along but i'm in no rush.
this is what it looked like when i first got it. most importantly, the motor works and the bearing looks to be in great shape.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2135/2392975592_7ba15e3d71.jpg)
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:D most grateful,take it slow is the path most people advise....is it a wonder the brick-and-mortar shops are on the death bed with stuff like this.a 6k baby step is harsh.i was thinking mid price was maybe 2 or 3k to get the feet wet with some good stuff.but,i really don't know two squeaks bout' the latest TT's ???? :D
if you're at $2-$3k for entry level, then the $1200 oracle set-up i recommended is a true no-brainer. it's plug-n-play, & as-is, it will hold its own against any $6k set-up your dealer is pushing. down the road, you can always upgrade the oracle w/latest suspension & bearing, & upgrade the power supply to origin-live. and, tho the tonearm on that deck is excellent, you could upgrade there, too, if you wanted to.... fully tricked out oracles compete w/the best, imo..
doug s.
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if you need to spend less than $1200, i would recommend any of the vintage empire decks. the older non-suspended chasis models offer easier swap-out of better (ie: o-l modded rega rb250) tonearms...
doug s.
i hope that's right because that's what i did. found a 208 with no arm for a reasonable price...it's moving along but i'm in no rush.
this is what it looked like when i first got it. most importantly, the motor works and the bearing looks to be in great shape.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2135/2392975592_7ba15e3d71.jpg)
i owned one of those - you will be wery happy! :green:
doug s.
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You might want to check out the ProJect line.
They seem to have a TT for every budget, up to where the real serious money starts.
-Mike
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:D thks guys,i am going this route as a result of a phrase from a certain close party saying he would be gone from audio not coming across that big old black disc,strong words indeed.i need to spin vinyl in the worst way now.i was told to go big or go home at a shop in the big city.he said spend 4k if you can and 6k would do it right.i thought that was kinda hi side ???? the less moves the better for sure,but i can't set up a hi end TT myself and that's for sure. :D
I'd recommend the AT-PL120 and a $200 record cleaning machine from Nitty Gritty (seriously helpful for LP enjoyment). Once you add it record cleaning supplies and a few other doo-dads (like isolation products), you're at about $700 - a fine place to start. Once you move on, as you will wonder what that next price level will get you, you'll still have the record cleaner and doo-dads and you can sell your AT-PL120 on A'gon or ebay and not lose much.
If you take a step into the world of $2K+ wonders, which may or may not play any better than the AT, you may be looking at steeper losses as you learn your craft.
If the folks at TONE Audio like the AT (and they did, back a few months ago), I'm certain it's a good deck for the money. No belts to jiggle with if you play 45's, nor belts to stretch, slip off or need to be replaced. I'm not anti-belt drive - I'm just citing the realities of ownership for a newbie :)
Without a properly regulated speed supply, your deck may sound no better than yesterday's average cassette deck. FG Servo, direct drives made in China at economical prices are the least expensive entry to attaining serious speed control.
For $10 more, LPGear will likely let you upgrade the stylus to a Shibata version. You take it out of the box, place it somewhere nice and isolated (birch cutting boards from IKEA are great, and cheap) and you'll be out-of-your mind with happiness likely.
Your TransDac, as good as it may be, can never better the middling performance of Redbook to begin with.
John
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What does the budget need to cover? Phono stage? Tonearm? Cartridge? Cleaning supplies?
Yes, you can get started on the cheap. But if you do like the effort and reward of vinyl you'll be quickly on the upgrade wagon. Then again, I've known people to start cheap, swear their CDP is so much better, and give up on vinyl.
My advice is to buy the best you can afford of everything now. Even if you are just now learning to setup a 'table, it works the same on a $200 arm/cart combo as it does on a $20K arm/cart combo. The used market is a good place to look for anything you are interested in, except cartridges. Be very, very careful buying used cartridges.
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For classic direct drive this:
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/517.asp (http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/517.asp)
(http://usa.denon.com/dp500m_large_front_rdax_1000x1073.jpg)
Plus this:
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3032.asp (http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3032.asp)
(http://usa.denon.com/dl103_large_front_rdax_500x483.jpg)
For belt drive Made in U.S.A:
http://www.sotaturntables.com/Comet,_Moonbeam.htm (http://www.sotaturntables.com/Comet,_Moonbeam.htm)
(http://www.sotaturntables.com/images/Comet.jpg)
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Norman,
The new Denon's are pale imitations of their illustrious forebears of past years......one is far better off venturing into the world of used Denon's than buying the new ones offered now.
The Denon's with the electronic Q-damped arms are the stars in the old line of Denon's.
Regards, John
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:D lotsa real good advice,i am with you Dan_ed on getting best up front as the less moves the better.i think all in for a couple grand would float my boat,25 hun tops.thks :D :scratch:
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These are nice!
http://www.teresaudio.com/
Here is a used one:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1213235796
yes they are, & that's a great deal. but, i would still choose an oracle. a buddy of mine (woodsyi) has both a teres & an oracle set up side-by-side. i prefer the oracle for the simple reason that its platter is ever-so-slightly concave. this means that when you clamp down a record, it sits tight to the platter at the edge. even slightly warped records flatten out. this is not the case w/the teres, or any flat-platter deck, for that matter. there are other ways of handling this - vacuum hold-down, perimeter clamping rings, etc. imo, slightly concave platter works best, i am not sure why there aren't more platters machined this way...
if woodsyi's rim-drive teres offers better speed stability than his oracle, i didn't hear it, tho it should, theoretically, as its lead-weighted platter truly is massive...
ymmv,
doug s.
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:D Th's guys,i am going this route as a result of a phrase from a certain close party saying he would be gone from audio not coming across that big old black disc,strong words indeed.i need to spin vinyl in the worst way now.i was told to go big or go home at a shop in the big city.he said spend 4k if you can and 6k would do it right.i thought that was kinda hi side ???? the less moves the better for sure,but i can't set up a hi end TT myself and that's for sure. :D
$4K!! Well you've got a lot to choose from, but I think I'd buy a VPI Scout Signature with a good cartridge (maybe a Blackbird). Your also gonna need a phone stage, and I'd recommend a Wright WP200 (used) for about $650. I've also come to like the ZU cables for my turntables; even though my tone arm cable is a Vandehul right now.
Lastly; if you buy the table from somebody like Acoustic Sounds or The Elusive Disc along with the cartridge, they'll set it up for you. Then all you'll need to do is level it and set the tracking force.
In closing let me be the first to welcome you into the world of real music!
Gary
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If you can spend $4k, then I will buy this:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1212705739
It is brand new in the box, you pay $3300 for a setup that retails at $4800 :o... no joke... because I just bought one from him.. :wink: :wink: :wink:
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:D hi all,soooo after a day of lookin' and thinkin', this is what i came up with ---- get a AT-PL120 with a better stylus as John has recommended,or get real deep and scoop a VPI Scoutmaster with Shelter 501.i will need a good cleaner for sure and i should be off to the races.this is classic Little step -- Big step stuff.i like to but things i percentage numbers so i was wondering with the small step,what % will i get in sound quality as to the big step.we all know the return laws here,but if anyone can lay down some numbers,that would help me pick which route to follow.thks :D thks for all your help :D
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As the format itself is the most limiting factor in the chain, the difference between merely good and excellent analog front ends I'd put at maybe 10%. We, as audiophools, pay a lot for that additional 10% in performance......Joe Q. Public wouldn't was nuances over 'articulate bass' or 'extended, airy treble response', ya' know :wink:
It's debatable whether the Scoutmaster/Shelter $3K) would be substantially better than the AT anyhow. Without tightly regulated speed regulation, the VPI is at the mercy of the oft-wavering AC line frequency to keep it on time. You are largely dependent on inertia of it's 10lb.+ platter to keep it on time any better than a vintage 80's cassette deck (frankly, tho it's so-so as a music source, CD/Redbook has quietly all taught us the lessons of speed sensitivity and accuracy over the past 2 decades).
You would need to invest another $1000 in VPI's (outboard) SDS unit to get the VPI to the AT's level of sophistication in speed regulation. It's not to say OTHER aspects of the VPI performance could/would be superior, but speed regulation would be, by it's very basic belt drive/AC synchonous motor'ed design, worse than the AT's until you invested another $1000.00.
I recommended the AT-PL120 as it's very inexpensive, absolutely new and requires zero set-up (what little there is is already done by LPGear). You simply set it down on a solid surface, plug the interconnect leads into a phono stage, turn up your volume and play your records. When you go to sell it (and you likely will in some period of time as you're an vinyl-phool now :icon_lol:), perhaps the worst you will lose in the transaction will be $140 (50% of new).
I would recommend stands/isolation (the IKEA birch cutting blocks or other hardwood.....this investment is likely better than similar money spent on the next level of cartridge performance) and a $150 (KAB) to $250 (Nitty Gritty) record cleaner with cleaning supplies. This is an indispensible aid and will follow you on your vinyl journey thru many deck swaps in the future.
Enjoy your decision - either way...John
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I like John's suggestion for the AT-PL120 table. It has a price of a simple 1 stall CD player and IF/WHEN you want to upgrade, it's no big deal, sell it or put it in the closet, or put it in a different system.
I do think you could do better than the $50 dollars AT-95 cartridge. It tracks fairly heavy and doesn't have the Microline stylus. The next model up in my book would be.....the Audio Technica AT440MLa. That's cause I'm the offical pimp for this cart (at least here at AC). It sould be a great fit with an Audio Technica table. No need for a preamp if yours has MM phono input. It will sound great.
Wayner
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Wayner,
The LPGear package with the AT95 cartridge has the upgraded (aftermarket) hyperelliptical stylus added...not the standard elliptical of the AT95e (I think). For $10.00 more, one can upgrade to the Shibata stylus....likely the best profile yet invented for vinyl playback (debatable, as is everything of course :wink:).
Frankly, I'm not sure how LPGear packs all that in for $279.00....the deck alone (san all the extras they throw in) costs that much at many retailers.
Electrically, the AT95 has 20% less inductance than the AT440...so, theoretically at least, cleaner, more extended and transparent treble than the AT440MLa is possible with the AT95SA cartridge.
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=LPGAT95SA&Category_Code=LPGCART
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:D well that ought' a do it.for a start this sounds pretty good and the wife will green light this in a nanosecond.lpgear have a phone # or do thet just like emails.???? thks guys waiting for that ups dude again.also,what cables does a guy need to finish this ???? :D
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I'd call 'em/costs all the same....upgrade to the SA version with Shibata stylus...it's worth the few $$.
Yeah, that's another benefit.....you need not go to extreme (pleading? :lol:) lengths to explain this purchase to your wife :thumb:
Enjoy - John
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FWIW, Amazon has AT-PL120's advirtised for $159.95 !
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:D dang,just sent the order with LP.... :D
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Did you order it with the upgraded Shibata stylus? I'd suggest that for the measly few $ extra...
At $160 + $80 cartridge (plus they set it up and throw in a heavy mat)...it's worth the extra $40 from LPGear. Don't sweat it.
btw, very good reviews on the product from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00012EYNG/ref=cm_cr_pr_recent?%5Fencoding=UTF8&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
None of them are snooty audiophools of course...but after 170 reviews you'd see a trend of some problem with the product if there was one. If any, they are mild and few. A good deck to start vinyl life with, I think :wink:
John
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:D John,thks for the help,and i did get the AT95SA stylus.thks any cables that work better ???? :D
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bigears, as John has stated, most intellegently I might add, your going about this in a wise manner that I think you will be happy with. In time you can then decide if the additonal $$ is justified for the 10% or so of sonic improvement ! Good luck, enjoy spinning your "black pizza" and remember this quote from Shelby Lynne......."you can't roll a joint on an I-Pod, buy more vinyl" !!
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:D John,thks for the help,and i did get the AT95SA stylus.thks any cables that work better ???? :D
No need for cables I think......you are relegated to use the cheesy built-in ones that the AT provides. If your the handy sort, you can always change them out....but I wouldn't bother as a starter unit. The 'SA/Shibata stylus' and the deck should be making nice sounds for the money.
Consider selling your CDP or Dac now as every week it'll be worth less gathering dust in your system :wink: :icon_lol:
Check back with us on your results...or better yet, post your impressions of the unit here on in the 'Reviews' circle.
Ciao, John