[josh358]

I can see the rational of not measuring. It wil involve at least a $400 dollar investment plus the learning curve.

Scotty, don't know if you'll see this since the thread is in quarantine, but bass response can be measured easily and cheaply with a Radio Shack meter and a test disk. They aren't good enough to do the highs, though.

I'd say the price of admission to full-range measurements is about $150. That would include a calibrated Behringer ($80), a cheap boom stand, cheap mic preamp, and the free Room EQ wizard. This assumes you have a PC and a suitable sound card -- add a bit more for a USB sound card if not (which would generally include the phantom power and mic pre). There are useful guidelines and recommendations on the REW web pages.

I do think, though, that for most people, the bass response is the most important. As so often in these debates, I think both parties are right, just arguing at cross purposes. You can tune your room and match subs and evaluate bass extension by ear, but it's faster to do it with measurements and they can yield a plethora of useful information, such as which room dimension is causing a response anomaly.

[josh358]

Just wanted to add that Magnepan specifies bass extension as what most listeners can expect to hear in an actual room. Like Steve, I've found their specs to be pretty accurate, but in any given room the cutoff may be a bit higher or a bit lower, and as with any speaker overall response will vary a good deal depending on placement and acoustics. For example someone was just saying on the Planar Asylum that his Tympani IIIa's measured to 30 Hz in his room, though they're spec'd by Magnepan at 42 Hz.

Pseudo-anechoic measurements of large area dipoles are problematic, they have a very strong proximity effect in the bass. That's why Stereophile's 1 meter measurements of planars show grotesquely exaggerated bass -- the microphone has to be back far enough for the rear wave to diffract around the baffle, otherwise you see the effects of the 6 dB/octave dipole compensation. Unfortunately, anechoic measurements are problematic as well, since dipoles depend on the floor reflection to increase effective baffle size and lower Fequal, and there are strong Allison-effect interference effects from the front wall. The best that can be done with dipoles as with any speaker is to optimize them for an average installation in an average room; as someone pointed out, below the Schroeder Frequency, room acoustics predominate.

[medium jim]

Scotty, don't know if you'll see this since the thread is in quarantine, but bass response can be measured easily and cheaply with a Radio Shack meter and a test disk. They aren't good enough to do the highs, though.

I'd say the price of admission to full-range measurements is about $150. That would include a calibrated Behringer ($80), a cheap boom stand, cheap mic preamp, and the free Room EQ wizard. This assumes you have a PC and a suitable sound card -- add a bit more for a USB sound card if not (which would generally include the phantom power and mic pre). There are useful guidelines and recommendations on the REW web pages.

I do think, though, that for most people, the bass response is the most important. As so often in these debates, I think both parties are right, just arguing at cross purposes. You can tune your room and match subs and evaluate bass extension by ear, but it's faster to do it with measurements and they can yield a plethora of useful information, such as which room dimension is causing a response anomaly.

Josh:

Funny thing is that is how I did the measurements on my system, via a RS digital sound pressure meter and a test cd.  At no time have I ever said measuring your room was a waist of time.  At the same time I trust my ears, why in the hell do we critically listen?!

Jim

[catastrofe]

This means that they were setup wrong then.  Typical and simple as that.

This response implies that every system will "sound better" with properly set up subwoofer(s).

I think that's a pretty broad brush statement, which I don't believe to be true...

[jtwrace]

every system will "sound better" with properly set up subwoofer(s).

This is fact!

[*Scotty*]

Cross Spectrum will have the Dayton UMM-6 with USB output around the first of Feb. It will come with calibration files in the FRD format. The cost listed on the website is $90. If the REW program is compatible with FRD format calibration files then the cost of measurement is considerably less than I originally calculated. An inexpensive mic stand later and you're business.
I knew I was dragging my feet on doing this for some reason.
Scotty

[roscoeiii]

This is fact!

Gonna have to respectfully disagree here Jason. Though there aren't many speakers for which this is the case, and certainly many problems related to integrating subs can be solved thru he proper choice and setup of subwoofers.

And of course the room will also have an impact.

[jtwrace]

Gonna have to respectfully disagree here Jason. Though there aren't many speakers for which this is the case, and certainly many problems related to integrating subs can be solved thru he proper choice and setup of subwoofers.

And of course the room will also have an impact.

Just to be clear here.  You're disagreeing that every system will sound better with properly setup subwoofers rather than not properly setup ones?  Interesting. 

[Crimson]

This is fact!

+1

[roscoeiii]

Just to be clear here.  You're disagreeing that every system will sound better with properly setup subwoofers rather than not properly setup ones?  Interesting.

No, that some systems will not benefit from the addition of subwoofers, no matter how well set up.

[SoCalWJS]

No, that some systems will not benefit from the addition of subwoofers, no matter how well set up.

Even multiple high quality subs distributed throughout the room to even out room nodes? I use that setup for HT but haven't yet figured out a way to use my subs (3) with both my 2 channel as well as the HT. I think I could get better results, but maybe not.

[roscoeiii]

I am thinking of high end full range speakers with very precisely matched drivers that already go down to 20Hz. As long as there are no nasty nodes at the listening position(s), these may sound better than an attempt to integrate subs due to driver matching issues and/or crossover related integration difficulties.

It may also be possible and preferable to incorporate DSP with full range speakers to achieve excellent results.

Not that multiple subs and well-integrated subs can't do wonders for the majority of systems perhaps. But I tend to always be wary of sweeping generalizations.

My 2¢. And I will leave it at that.

[poseidonsvoice]

I am thinking of high end full range speakers with very precisely matched drivers that already go down to 20Hz. As long as there are no nasty nodes at the listening position(s), these may sound better than an attempt to integrate subs due to driver matching issues and/or crossover related integration difficulties.

It may also be possible and preferable to incorporate DSP with full range speakers to achieve excellent results.

Not that multiple subs and well-integrated subs can't do wonders for the majority of systems perhaps. But I tend to always be wary of sweeping generalizations.

My 2¢. And I will leave it at that.

Scroll down to the 1/6th octave measurements in M Fremers room ( which is pretty decently treated) for the wonderful response of a measly $200K speaker below 300 Hz:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexandria-xlf-loudspeaker-measurements

My 2¢. And I will leave it at that.

I think a DSP is another $50k option from Wilson however

Best,
Anand.

[catastrofe]

This is fact!

This is the type of attitude that derailed this thread to begin with.  You're making a claim as a universal truth, and you don't have the qualifications to do so.  As a moderator, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[jtwrace]

This is the type of attitude that derailed this thread to begin with.  You're making a claim as a universal truth, and you don't have the qualifications to do so.  As a moderator, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Uh, no, this is fact.  It's been proven for many many years.  Do your homework on acoustic measurements before you insult people.

[catastrofe]

Uh, no, this is fact.  It's been proven for many many years.  Do your homework on acoustic measurements before you insult people.

I have an open mind. . .since you made the blanket statement that every system will benefit from properly set up subwoofers, please point me to your supporting evidence.  Don't tell me to do the research myself. . .that's unreasonable.  For you to make such an unequivocal claim, there must be documentation that pretty much supports that claim.  I'd love to read it.  Seriously.

[jtwrace]

since you made the blanket statement that every system will benefit from properly set up subwoofers

This is correct...a fact.  Every system will benefit from properly setup subwoofers.  Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that every system needs subwoofers but if you are going to use them, they need to be properly setup and the only way that's going to happen is with measurements.  Last, if one doesn't use subwoofers, you still need to take measurements to make sure that the system is properly setup within the room.  This is a fact whether you choose to believe it or not  and I have lived it and many others have too.

[SoCalWJS]

Scroll down to the 1/6th octave measurements in M Fremers room ( which is pretty decently treated) for the wonderful response of a measly $200K speaker below 300 Hz:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexandria-xlf-loudspeaker-measurements

My 2¢. And I will leave it at that.

I think a DSP is another $50k option from Wilson however

Best,
Anand.

Yeah - The OmniMic system I have will measure in 1/48th octave if you want. That will make you REALLY depressed and make you think you'll NEVER have reasonably flat bass response. 

1/3 octave hides many (if not most) of the issues, but it makes me feel better. 

[catastrofe]

This is correct...a fact.  Every system will benefit from properly setup subwoofers.  Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that every system needs subwoofers but if you are going to use them, they need to be properly setup and the only way that's going to happen is with measurements.  Last, if one doesn't use subwoofers, you still need to take measurements to make sure that the system is properly setup within the room.  This is a fact whether you choose to believe it or not  and I have lived it and many others have too.

I think this is where the confusion lies.  The way your response was originally worded, it stated that every system would benefit from subwoofers (properly set up).  I think what you're actually saying is that if a system has subwoofers, they need to be set up properly.  If that's the case, I absolutely agree, and I agree that measurements will optimize the set up of any system, with subs or without.   

Gotta' love the english language.

[jtwrace]

I think this is where the confusion lies.  The way your response was originally worded, it stated that every system would benefit from subwoofers (properly set up).  I think what you're actually saying is that if a system has subwoofers, they need to be set up properly.  If that's the case, I absolutely agree, and I agree that measurements will optimize the set up of any system, with subs or without.   

Gotta' love the english language.

Yes. 

This is where and how it all started.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112130.msg1177502#msg1177502

I thought I was clear with that post. 

Just to reiterate, even without subs though the system needs to be properly setup to sound the best that it can.  In order to do this, measurements are needed.  The most important parts of the system then is the hardest part to tame which is the room.  Then there is of course certain speaker types that are more forgiving than others but that's a different topic all together.