AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Von Schweikert Audio Owners => Topic started by: Mikerodrig27 on 10 Feb 2021, 04:22 am
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Hi,
I just picked up a set of VR-4 speakers in disrepair. They mostly work but have a few issues. Two woofers are damaged where the voice coils are tight in the grooves and one rear firing tweeter doesn't seem to be working.
I know quite a few people seem to have upgraded their VS speakers. I was hoping if anyone had the old drivers sitting around that they may be interested in selling them.
Please reply or send me a PM if you do! Thanks!
Mike
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Those woofers are unobtanium, good luck, I hope you can acquire some spares!
Amazing speakers, and I'm still kicking myself for selling mine 10 days ago. :duh: :duh: :duh:
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Talk to Madisound. Let us know how you do.
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If I remember correctly those woofers were an off the shelf driver which was then coated with some kind of varnish. At the time they weren't very expensive. But have been out of production for some time now. Madisound may help you get something which is close.
Most of the upgrades were performed by Von Schweikert, people shipped them back. So few would have the old drivers. Even most of those were done many years ago. Up to at least 3-4 years ago, Von Schweikert was still selling replacement woofers, they still might.
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They still do have drivers but they are quite expensive. They recommend to replace all four which would total out to $1200. Much more than I want to spend on these speakers. I may try to take some Theile small measurements of one of the good drivers and see how it looks. I have two projects lined up that could use some measurement and design work so time to purchase the Dayton Audio DATS V3.
I am crossing my fingers that a Dayton Audio RS225-8 would work as I used that driver in another project and love both it's sound and the way it works. I know that is a shot in the dark though and highly unlikely.
I will chime in if I make any progress. As of now I think everything you guys have said so far seems quite reasonable. I agree that I don't think I will find someone with used drivers. One thing I am thinking of doing is veneering the bottom cabinet which would mean the drivers would be exposed. The old stamped steel drivers with the epoxy covered cones wouldn't look very nice.
Still in the brainstorming phase. Thanks for your responses!
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$300 a driver! That is an expense. But it is a good thing that original driver replacements are still stocked by VSA. Kudos to them for still having them.
Albert once sent me an email with information about those original drivers. Exactly what driver to purchase, what materials to use and how to coat it. That was about 20 years ago and I have long since lost it. As I had my VR-4 upgraded, it was no longer relevant to me. I did take a few minutes today to search for it, but no dice. As I remember back then the drivers sold for less than $50.
Although as you have the woofers, you know what they are.
The VR-4.5 and VR-6 used Eton 8-800 8" woofers. I believe those are out of production and Eton drivers are also pricey. Maybe an Eton 8-612 would be close???
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You might call or email VSA. I'm sure you're not the first wanting to renovate these. I expect VSA would know what drivers now in production can most closely match the originals as well as other valuable info for your project.
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Tom Bombadil, I agree. $300 is very expensive. They are an expensive company though. A heck of a lot more than I want to spend on these speakers at the moment. I just received a Dayton DATS 3 that I will use to hopefully pull the theile small parameters off of one of the good woofers. Then I can search around a little bit.
I talked to someone on the phone. They didn't mention any other drivers that would work. I am not sure how invested they are in designs of this vintage now-a-days. I suspect that the new woofer is slightly different (hopefully better) which explains the suggestion to replace all four.
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Okay, so I took some measurements today. Sadly, I don't think the RS225-8 will work. I am going to start my hunt and see what I can come up with.
(https://i.ibb.co/n1WnwR3/VR-4-woofer-measurements.png) (https://ibb.co/Ks1L5mN)
(https://i.ibb.co/KxrR2nn/20210216-232202.jpg) (https://ibb.co/whz3Stt)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yjck1LG/20210216-232223.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8BW4mv)
(https://i.ibb.co/0JK67YR/20210216-232238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCzvGYT)
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Hi,
Just a suggestion have you thought about having the drivers repaired/refurbished? I've heard miller sound do a very good and it might be just the trick for you.
http://www.millersound.net
Cheers Rod
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If I cannot find something that fits well, I will try cutting the spider off and the surrounds, pull the cone out and see what is going on with the voice coil. Well, I should actually test the ohms of the voice coils against a good one first... Lol.
Thanks for the suggestion!
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Mikerodrig27 - I am writing on behalf of my colleague, Gil Schumaker, who cannot yet post. He has two VR-4 woofers and will sell them if you are interested.
Please let me know and I will get you connected to him
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Mikerodrig27 - I am writing on behalf of my colleague, Gil Schumaker, who cannot yet post. He has two VR-4 woofers and will sell them if you are interested.
Please let me know and I will get you connected to him
Absolutely! Please have him get in touch with me. I will send you a PM with my information. Thanks!
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This might be the poster mentioned above, not sure. Just saw it this morning.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174646348777
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Yes that is him. We talked for a while about gear etc. He seemed like a nice guy. He said they were $100 a piece and I pay shipping. I wanted to buy one of them. He said he was happy to help a fellow audio guy out. I told him I would pay Paypal fees etc which he said wasn't necessary. I also said to pad the shipping to account for his time which he again tole me not to worry about. A couple hours later he texted me and told me he only wants to sell the pair or nothing. I messaged saying I could do 200 shipped. He never got back.
I suppose he decided not to help a fellow audio guy out anymore...
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One thing that I noticed with the old drivers is the glue on the magnet structures come apart. He had two come apart and I have had one. Once the glue comes apart, the magnet shifts off center which traps the voice coil in the gap.
I am going to look for a replacement as replacing these old woofers with the originals seems to be risky. They also aren't the best drivers. They don't measure consistently etc. Lastly, they have foam surrounds which are degrading. They are almost to the point to where they all have to new surrounds installed.
If someone has the originals, I would suggest putting a bead of 5 min epoxy or something around the seams where the magnets sit on top of each other. If anything, the bead will act as a reference for positioning when putting the magnets back together if needed.
I had taken my woofer apart thinking there was an issue with the voice coil or gap which was a mistake. I could have likely centered the magnet and glued it back together. There are no dowels etc to keep the 3 pieces aligned.
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I was really surprised to see that the surrounds were foam. It's not even a sealed/acoustic suspension enclosure.
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I did some listening with the Dayton drivers last night. I am going to write up my thoughts tonight. I am happy with the results so far.
I also took a few pictures of different things so people can use them as a reference for later.
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The cabinet volume of the two woofers (I measured each of their internal dimensions) is the same as my Bordeaux speakers (80L). I have taken two RS-225-8's out of my Bordeaux to test in the VR-4's. I did some basic listening impressions last night and tonight, no measurements so far. One speaker had the OEM speakers and the other had the Dayton RS225-8 drivers so I could A/B test them. My first impressions are good. I like the way the RS225-8 sounds vs the originals. The upper bass register seems to fill in a little but which I like. I felt like they were really missing before. This is a minor difference though. You really have to listen in order to hear it.
If I had to find something negative to say about the sound of the RS225-8 as a direct replacement, I would say they sound over dampened with the stock acoustic stuffing. However, I was hearing the full bass range and slightly more of it which is a plus on both fronts. The VR-4's speakers seem to lack bass stock especially compared to my main DIY speakers. Maybe I am acclimated to too much bass. Who knows. Most speakers seem to have a lot more bass in their voicing than the VR-4's. I may take some time to check the capacitors on the crossover boards.
You have to make the hole larger by 1/8". Not a big deal with a sanding drum in a hand drill. The holes are still small enough to easily put the stock drivers back in. It takes around 5 minutes of sanding per hole. I took the opportunity to extend the wires and put spade connectors on the ends. The woofers are not a direct swap but still a good replacement with just using my ears.
Just for kicks, I took some of the dampening material out to expose the rear of the woofer to the port and got the dampening material a few inches away from the Dayton woofers. This seemed to work well with the RS225-8. It made the bass a little stronger. I could see if someone wanted to replace the woofers with the RS225-8 to remove the acoustic stuffing and replace it with acoustic dampening foam.
Again, I have only been using my ears up until now. I plan to take the speakers outside and measure with a calibrated mic. I won't be able to get them up off of the ground to high (maybe around 3') but I can do a A/B between the stocks and Daytons and hopefully omit a lot of reflections. A lot of manufacturers seems to test bass outside even though they have Anechoic chambers. Bass is a tricky devil.
Here is a set of sanding drums similar to what I used. They go in the chuck of a hand drill. There is a 1/8" round-over on the on the mounting hole of the VR-4. I used that as a gauge to keep my sanding even.
https://www.amazon.com/WEN-DS164-20-Piece-Sanding-Presses/dp/B07DB2JYB9/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Sanding+Drum+Set&qid=1614088031&s=hi&sr=1-4
I think this (below) may be the SEAS driver that you see in the newer von schweikert vr4sr. The cabinet shape of those seems to be similar to my Bordeaux speakers which makes me think that the cabinet volume may be almost the same.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/seas-prestige-l22rn4x/p-h1208-8-aluminum-cone-woofer/
The cabinets are almost right at 40l per woofer enclosure (80l total). The ports are 8 1/4" long. Diameter is 3"
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I will post some pictures of different things so that people can use them as a reference. Either tonight or tomorrow some time.
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I am posting some pictures below. If anyone wants any specific picture while I am taking the speakers apart, testing etc, let me know.
A couple pictures of the bass bin crossover. Interestingly, I didn't put those screws there. I suspect they found there way there during assembly many years ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/4dsZJn3/20210222-202812.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TLKBrxd)
(https://i.ibb.co/JdgwQqP/20210222-202836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yR7cSpJ)
How the RS225-8 looks when installed into the speaker.
(https://i.ibb.co/fDSC49y/20210222-212909.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YBj6bf)
How much stuffing is in one woofer enclosure (there are two per bass bin)
(https://i.ibb.co/7pC9yhn/20210222-220812.jpg) (https://ibb.co/94gMYPb)
A couple of pics comparing the stock woofer to the RS225-8
(https://i.ibb.co/cNbWYJ3/20210222-221708.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dQbNmBM)
(https://i.ibb.co/QfQDFr3/20210222-221729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R9bjpzk)
A picture inside the enclosure. I believe the wood glued and screwed to the sides and bottom are to reduce cabinet vibrations. The cabinets are pretty solid and HEAVY!
(https://i.ibb.co/xXFWRxN/20210222-222238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYW6F9s)
A picture of my testing setup. I swapped the speakers from side to side a couple of times.
(https://i.ibb.co/cXgqF61/20210222-235946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3xm2W0)
When I took some acoustic stuffing out. I exposed the port and tried to move the stuffing away from the woofer a little bit. I liked the way this sounded better.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZGP5cg5/20210223-220110.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djqFkpF)
(https://i.ibb.co/MBXbRqC/20210223-220119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLdSbyJ)
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Pictures aren't showing up for me. :cry:
EDIT: I'm at work, duh... if it's 3rd party hosting it might be blocked by firewall. I'll let you know if they show up when I'm home.
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Yes, I could see the pics at home. Great work!
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I've gotten very used to the lack of a bass bump in the 80Hz region from my modded VR-4s. They are so flat through that 70-100Hz region, unlike most other speakers. The original VR-4 was very clean through there, the modded VR-4 with the official VR-5/7 upgrade even more so.
When I listen to familiar music through other speakers, I almost always hear that extra bass and I don't like it at all. I find that accurate, articulate bass line to be one of the defining attributes of the VSR sound.
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Yes, I could see the pics at home. Great work!
Thanks! I am glad you were able to see the pics. I did a bunch of measurements with the RS225-8 speakers. I am working on posting the results right now.
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I've gotten very used to the lack of a bass bump in the 80Hz region from my modded VR-4s. They are so flat through that 70-100Hz region, unlike most other speakers. The original VR-4 was very clean through there, the modded VR-4 with the official VR-5/7 upgrade even more so.
When I listen to familiar music through other speakers, I almost always hear that extra bass and I don't like it at all. I find that accurate, articulate bass line to be one of the defining attributes of the VSR sound.
What you are saying must be true. I don't have any real significant bass issues in my room. This may be why I am missing the bass bump more than others. Maybe I have a null around the frequencies that he cut in order to make a flat room response. I am going to try them in another room after I get them all sorted out.
Do you have any pictures of the 5/7 upgrade by chance?
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Okay, so I did a bunch of measuring. I don't have a ton of experience with measuring speakers but I think I got some conclusive results.
I used a Firstwatt F6 amp with the signal coming straight out of the headphone jack on my laptop. While the amp would work well, I know that the laptop DAC is probably not the best at least for fidelity. I decided to test them outside to create a more anechoic environment and avoid room reflections messing up the results.
-I took 3 measurements 37.5" from the front and repeated the same measurements from the rear of the speaker (due to the ports)
-I averaged the front results of each speaker.
(https://i.ibb.co/fnp5Zhx/20210227-175723.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rc6SqCw)
This is what I got
(https://i.ibb.co/cr880Hj/Average-response-Dayton-and-OEM.png) (https://ibb.co/S3mmb8z)
The Daytons seems to go a bit lower. I think this is mainly due to the fact that I took a bunch of stuffing out of the enclosure. The port can work and do it's thing.
I like the results. I feel as though if I had the cabinets completely stuffed again as it was from the factory, I would have similar results to the OEM driver. The Dayton does seem to be a bit smoother as well. I like it and feel as though it is a good fit. Let me know your thoughts if you guys have any. I have the files and would be happy to share them via Email. Just PM me and I will send it all over.
There are a few other things that I like about the RS225-8 for me personally.
-There are quite a few great DIY kits that use this driver. I want to build the Travelers by Speaker Design Works someday.
-They have been around for a long time, are cheap and highly regarded by a some terrific speaker designers.
-I have the Bordeaux speakers and will feel better knowing that I have backup woofers in case one ever fails
-Cast baskets, aluminum cone, good looking etc.
-Low distortion.
I am going to go ahead and purchase 4 woofers tonight.
-What I hope to also do to these speakers is veneer or wrap the bottom bass bin and make the woofers flush
-Look at the top cabinet crossovers and drivers to see what kind of shape they are in. I know I need one rearfiring tweeter which meniscus seems to have.
-Make a new top cap and wood trim for the rest of the speaker.
Replace the binding posts throughout. The two binding post on one of the top cabinets are missing the nut part that screws onto the post. The previous owner just zip tied the wires to the top cabinets. Lol.
-If I can get the crossovers out, I may change the wiring out. I have a bunch of low oxygen wiring laying around that would be suitable.
I do love the way mids and highs are voiced on these speakers. Von Schweikert did a great job of that. I just need to get used to the bass. What I do like about the lack of the bass bump is the room isn't loaded up with bass when the top cabinet is trying to produce it's magic. This helps with the imaging and spaciousness of the mids and highs.
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Do you have any pictures of the 5/7 upgrade by chance?
No, just a description laying around somewhere. I purchased my VR-4s used circa 1996 and had them upgraded around 2002. Except for the rear-firing tweeter, I've never seen any of the drivers except when shining a flashlight through the sock. Albert told me that they replaced everything insider the speaker. The drivers, the crossovers and the wiring. Drilled out the bass module to accept the larger woofers. Even replaced the sock with a material which he said was more sonically transparent. So except for the cabinets it is a whole new speaker. Or at least it was almost 20 years ago.
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I have heard that it was an expensive upgrade but had a pretty good value when compared to purchasing a whole new speaker. I think I remember reading that the whole part inside of the top module that the speakers are fastened to gets replaced.
I believe the woofers that the woofers they were suggesting as a replacements were either the aluminum cone Seas drivers or the Magnesium ones. Most likely what they used in your 5/7 upgrade kit.
If I take the sock off of mine, I will shoot some pictures of what is going on behind the curtains. Unlike you, I can't leave anything well enough alone... Lol
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I have heard that it was an expensive upgrade but had a pretty good value when compared to purchasing a whole new speaker. I think I remember reading that the whole part inside of the top module that the speakers are fastened to gets replaced.
The standard charge for the upgrade was $2500 plus shipping to and from California. Albert told me that they made nothing from it, that once all processing and labor and overhead was included that this was about their cost. I knew Albert from many interactions in various on-line forums and from seeing him at audio shows. He made me an offer of doing the upgrade for $1500 with him covering shipping back to me and that he would personally sound the speaker and tweak it to his preference. A very generous offer. I took him up on it.
$1500 for replacing 4 woofers, 2 midrange drivers, 4 tweeters, all of the crossovers, internal wiring, fabric sock, the internal mounts for the mid & tweeters, and drilling out the four woofer mountings, plus shipping it back to me. One of the best deals I ever made. Albert was a very generous and gracious man. Unless living circumstances prevail, I don't expect to ever sell them. But I doubt they let me bring them into an assisted living facility, should that be in my future.
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Wow, that is a cool story. That was very generous of him. I read that Albert was very fond of this model hence the upgradability etc.
I wonder what he tweaked. Was he tweaking the crossover values a bit? Pretty cool.
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Hi,
Are you going to redesign the crossover in the speaker because if they aren't direct replacements they may or may not work well? Millersound supposedly does great work restoring drivers and might be an option instead of buying new drivers which aren't drop in replacements.
Cheers Rod
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No. These drivers play well with the existing crossover. After a few hours of listening and another few hours of measuring, I am happy with the results. The RS225-8's work better to my ears and with my measurements. I bought 4 drivers from Parts Express last night to put in the VR-4s. The nice thing about the VR-4 design is that the crossovers are extremely low on the woofer bin. A lot of drivers can work within the parameters of that.
The original woofer drivers are not the greatest quality. Their age is showing. The magnet structures and surrounds are fragile, both problem I could address but I wanted to find something new.
The upgraded woofers would have been $1200. The four of these cost $225+ shipping. I believe the upgraded woofers are probably a fair value as I think Von Schweikert uses SEAS drivers. However, these Daytons are known for punching way above their weight class.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218133)
This is what the top looks like unmasked (upside down, mind you).
There is almost no slack on the tweeters. You are practically certain to destroy them if you try to pull them out (voice of experience speaking). The leads are soldered on. I think the proper way to access them is by disassembling the whole enclosure and de-soldering the leads from the inside, then removing the tweeters.
Also, the wires are solid copper. I don't think you'll get a whole lot of improvement only with new wiring, versus refurbishing the crossover itself.
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Very cool! Thanks for sharing the pic!
My idea was to replace the wires in the bass bin if I happen to pull the crossover out, I would replace the wires there. I would also take the time to organize and check the caps etc. I wouldn't replace the wires for a sonic improvement, I would do it to tidy things up.
I have yet to replace the rear tweeter that doesn't seem to be working. I will likely take the top cabinet apart to see what is going on, check caps, see if the tweeter is burnt out (most likely the case). It looks like there is a replacement available for it that is relatively cheap. If the caps are low values, I will buy some nice caps for the crossover if they aren't already films.
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Looks like your friend on ebay has halved the price and has an opening bid of $100 OBO. He should've taken the bird in the hand. :nono:
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Oh well. What can you do. I hope he sells them. I bet someone out there has woofers that are coming apart. I am pretty happy with the RS225-8's however. If his woofers go down in price, I may grab them just to help with resale on the speakers in case I need to make room for the next best thing. Speaking of which, I just picked up a set of Klipsch Lascalas so my head has gone to those for a little bit! I promise I will get back to these sometime soon.
On the VR-4's, I want to make the woofers flush and put a wood veneer on the bottom cab. I am thinking Mahogany as it is inexpensive to purchase but looks really expensive. A little bit of a tall order but the cost will be similar to purchasing a new sock (old one has some tears) plus my labor (spending time in the shop AKA fun.).
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I follow your work with the greatest pleasure when I myself plan to go through my VR 4. Waiting with excitement until you get to the crossover filter and hope that you can measure the values of the various components. How did you remove the fabric covers? Do you know if it is possible to buy these from the VSA or does anyone else here on the forum know?
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No reason to mess with the crossovers as far as I can tell. The drivers work well as is. I am going to leave my crossover alone.
If you unscrew the wood bottom or the wood square from the top, the fabric can be pulled up. It is just glued. If I were going to put it back, I would likely just staple it.
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Ok thank you for explaining how to best take off and on the fabric covers
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Thanks for this post! I recently bought a used pair of VR-4's and suspect the woofers are in trouble. Following with gratitude for sharing your hard work!
Edit: have no idea how that question mark got in there. Replaced with "!"
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Hi Mike,
Have you made any more progress with your VR4s? Inspired by your experience, I have 4 RS225-8 woofers on the way!