Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning

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CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #20 on: 5 Apr 2018, 05:54 pm »
How are normal passive power cables filtering? Although I've heard that argument before. I still don't understand Shunyata's minimum length suggestion. They mention more here:

http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/

No idea how, on both counts.

I presume it's the internals of the conditioners that block ripple noise etc. Not so much the power cables.

cheers

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #21 on: 6 Apr 2018, 12:01 am »
hey Zoom. are you an engineer or wha? Your analytical approach is off the charts man. Cool.
Have you ever tried a few different quality power cables and see how they sound? And if they sound good, light it up!

T


zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #22 on: 19 Apr 2018, 08:09 pm »
Okay, quick update. I did found out that the stock shielded power cable that I had had the shield's drain wire connected to both ends of the ground. Apparently, this is required for UL purposes. I've been told that this isn't good for audio purposes. So my listening tests did match up with what's going on.

Now that I have first hand experience that power cables can sound different, I question how various audiophile shielding power cable are connecting their shields. Are they connecting one end (which end), both end, no end? Is it possible that they are liking something that might actually be a bad design? I tried looking around various manufacturer's page and nowhere did they specify how the shield was connected.

From a limited survey, it seems that the Audiogon crowd seems to like their various shielded cords. On the other hand, the Naim and Linn crowd generally prefer their unshielded cables and for similar reasons as me. The shielded cables can sound good or different initially, but over time some you become aware that something is off here. When going back to the standard unshielded, it initially feels dull or boring but it has correct balance and doesn't bother you in the long run.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #23 on: 19 Apr 2018, 08:17 pm »
hey Zoom. are you an engineer or wha? Your analytical approach is off the charts man. Cool.
Have you ever tried a few different quality power cables and see how they sound? And if they sound good, light it up!

T

Hi TJ,

You can read part of the answer above. I haven't tried anything fancy for a couple of reasons:

1) Expensive

2) I was under the assumption that you'd multiple of them to hear the difference. So VERY expensive. However, that's not true. In my testing, when I left all of them unshielded, and only experimented with one or two components at a time with shielded that I could swap out in less than 10 seconds for quick A/B, the difference between the shielded and unshielded was still there even with single components.

3) I'm still not sure of what designs are the best and what to look out for. The companies don't seem to mention this in detail.

I'll be sticking with my stock unshielded cables with the Torus. Maybe later if I ever get a chance to compare a cable, I'll give it a shot for curiosity's sake to see if it makes no change, or if it does make a change - is it for the better or worse.

Do you know how your PS Audio cables are designed?

Speedskater

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #24 on: 20 Apr 2018, 04:36 pm »
Okay, quick update. I did found out that the stock shielded power cable that I had had the shield's drain wire connected to both ends of the ground. Apparently, this is required for UL purposes. I've been told that this isn't good for audio purposes. So my listening tests did match up with what's going on.
.......................................
That is the UL rule, but an exception is permitted:

46.2 A power-supply cord employing shielded cord that does not have the shield or drain wire terminated,
along with the grounding connector, to the grounding terminal of the attachment plug, load fitting, or both,
shall be indelibly marked with the following or the equivalent: “CAUTION: The shield in this cord is not
terminated to any of the terminals in the .” The blank is to be filled-in with one of the following:
“attachment plug”, “appliance coupler”, or “attachment plug or appliance coupler”, as appropriate.


I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #25 on: 20 Apr 2018, 06:09 pm »
That is the UL rule, but an exception is permitted:

46.2 A power-supply cord employing shielded cord that does not have the shield or drain wire terminated,
along with the grounding connector, to the grounding terminal of the attachment plug, load fitting, or both,
shall be indelibly marked with the following or the equivalent: “CAUTION: The shield in this cord is not
terminated to any of the terminals in the .” The blank is to be filled-in with one of the following:
“attachment plug”, “appliance coupler”, or “attachment plug or appliance coupler”, as appropriate.


I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.

Thanks. I remember seeing both options of shield at wall-end vs. component-end. What's the logic behind connecting at wall-end? I've often seen recommendation for connecting the shield at the wall-end as a way to drain the noise away from the component.

"Now about the cords themselves. The reason a lot of manufacturers use the ferrite beads (even though they're not as effective as shielding IMO) instead of shielded cords has to do with UL approval. UL approval for a shielded OEM power cord (and therefore the device itself) requires that the shield be attached to ground at both ends of the cord. Such a cord will shield OK, but by connecting the shield at both ends, a ground loop is formed and so such cords are susceptible to hum pickup.

Most aftermarket shielded cords, have the shield connected to ground only at the AC plug end. This is called a "floating shield" and is the best way to do it. DO NOT use a ground-lifting "cheater plug" with these cords or you lose the shielding properties.

I'm not going to recommend a specific cord, but make sure you ask the manufacturer three questions (and do get answers or don't buy the cord):

1.) Is it shielded (and you might ask braid? or foil? or both?)
2.) Is it a floating shield?
3.) Which end is the shield connected (you want the AC plug end)"


Taken from here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/suggestions-for-fully-shielded-power-cord

brucek

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #26 on: 20 Apr 2018, 09:40 pm »
I would rather have the shield attached at only the hi-fi component end. That way it functions only as an extension of the chassis shield. If it's attached at both ends it becomes part of the Safety Ground circuit.

Yeah, I don't understand this shielding of power cords. I'm afraid you are throwing your money away - there is no justification for paying that kind of money for an AC power cord. Granted, some people want to make their own DIY cords in custom lengths to avoid the "extension cord" connection, and that's great - go to your local electrical store and buy some Beldon 12/3 power cable and some nice Hubbell plugs and an IEC connector and make your own power cord for under $30. There's no better functioning cord on the market today. As long as the power cord is of sufficient gauge to not impede the current flow for that last few feet that it is used, you're OK.

Shielding a power cord? The circuits that deliver AC power to your components are the lowest impedance circuits in your entire system, even lower than your speaker connections. As a result of this low impedance, there is simply no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within the power cable or to prevent RFI from entering the power cable. Spend money somewhere that makes a difference.

brucek

Speedskater

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #27 on: 20 Apr 2018, 11:34 pm »
Why shield a power cord?  While it's far come common, any of your hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). That's why it's good to stick with well designed components (hint) that don't suffer from these problems.

But once a systems suffers from these problems, the solutions become Black Magic. Changing the length of the cord can change the problem. Changing the placement (dress) of the cord can change the problem. A particular cord might be better one time and worse the next.

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #28 on: 30 Apr 2018, 02:52 pm »
Hi TJ,

You can read part of the answer above. I haven't tried anything fancy for a couple of reasons:

1) Expensive
3) I'm still not sure of what designs are the best and what to look out for. The companies don't seem to mention this in detail.


Do you know how your PS Audio cables are designed?

Zoomer

PS Audio includes a small blurb on design characteristics on their website:

"The PerfectWave AC5 is the best value power cable we’ve made in the last decade. The AC5 is a 10 gauge cable constructed with pure Linear Crystal Copper in multiple gauges and shapes.

Inside the AC5 is one LCC hollow conductor for the treble region, a large LCC rectangular conductor for the midrange and multiple gauges of LCC bundled together for the bass. Equipment powered with an AC5 enjoy a significant improvement in sound quality over any stock power cable.
"

Rather than speculate, and garner information from the Audiogon crowd....just buy one of these AC5's (Or even the AC3) and try it. Draw your own conclusions.  Forget about all the shielding gibberish for a moment and let your ears determine if it's worth spending a few hundred bucks on a power cable. 

That's what I did. And I was amazed at what a single power cable could do to improve overall system performance.

Give 'er a go.

Thanks TJ

Elizabeth

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #29 on: 30 Apr 2018, 06:10 pm »
I own a Furman REF20i conditioner ($3500) and a PS Audio P600 ($2250 with options)
I use all Pangea power cords.
When I bought a Pangea AC9SE I decided the best place to break it in would be from the wall to the Furman.
I was shocked to note I could hear an improvement in the overall sound.
The AC9SE however, did not make the PS Audio P600 sound any better, actually the PS Audio P600 sounded better with the AC9 and not the SE edition.

Also differences to my Bryston BP-26 power supply. The AC9 was better than the AC14SE. Go figure.

All Pangea are totally shielded. I own a 'sniffer' for AC voltage and it registers zero with the Pangea powercords except at the plug ends.

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #30 on: 30 Apr 2018, 11:36 pm »
Right on Elizabeth. Another example of an affordable power cable that brings sonic improvements!
Come on ZOOM - go get yourself one! :) Call it an early Xmas present, or birthday present.  :thumb:

TJ

Pundamilia

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #31 on: 21 Jun 2018, 04:13 am »
This article does make a reference to Bryston, but there is no explanation or elaboration on the products. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #32 on: 21 Jun 2018, 11:35 am »
This article does make a reference to Bryston, but there is no explanation or elaboration on the products. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223

YMMV as usual with audio.  :?

Speedskater

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #33 on: 21 Jun 2018, 12:49 pm »
That's a good blog. We need more bloggers like Mark Waldrep and less power cord believers.

rob80b

Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #34 on: 21 Jun 2018, 12:56 pm »
............. However, he is NOT a believer in the impact that expensive power cables have:

Having been in this hobby since the 60s and I should know better....but just took a peek behind the furniture on the front wall and not too sure which power cable I should start with.  :scratch:



CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #35 on: 21 Jun 2018, 01:21 pm »
Could use a good vacuuming back there, rob!

cheers

rob80b

Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #36 on: 21 Jun 2018, 01:24 pm »
Could use a good vacuuming back there, rob!

cheers

Always...dust can be more detrimental on equipment than cable arrangements....especially with two cats...: )

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #37 on: 21 Jun 2018, 01:25 pm »
central heating's expen$ive in Ontario.....

rob80b

Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #38 on: 21 Jun 2018, 01:46 pm »
central heating's expen$ive in Ontario.....

Hi Pete...You bring an excellent point which is somewhat related...not too sure and it may be my imagination...but with an increase in power costs and going green many of us have  gone from leaving ones equipment on 24/7 so that listening is always from a cold start and IMHO just doesn't sound quite the same until about an hour or so into a session.
Now power conditioning can stabilize and clean up somewhat the incoming electricity and Bryston has taken great strides in addressing just that...I'm still skeptical about power cords but I guess it is possible to change the incoming flow to the power amp or any other associated equipment, how that effects our music appreciation more than our current mood, state of mind, stress or lack of or time of day I'm not too sure?

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #39 on: 21 Jun 2018, 01:53 pm »
I agree with that, rob. My Tritons made a big SQ boost in my system, and made even stock or "low-end" value pc's more than adequate for even my power amp (14B2). So, hi-end cords costing hundreds have become moot in my system.

Amps do "sound" fuller when warmed up for about 30 mins. before listening imho.

With tongue-in-cheek, if central heating proves expen$ive, perhaps a tubed amp will serve as a cost-effective area heater for those damp Ontario winter nights.  :lol: :green:   You may even feel adventurous, and get to see some indoor fireworks ....