Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning

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Pundamilia

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Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« on: 1 Apr 2018, 10:14 pm »
Notwithstanding the fact that Bryston OEMs power conditioners, given the substantial power supplies built into Bryston amps, how necessary is additional external power conditioning with Bryston equipment? As I understand it, the role of power conditioning is to provide a stable source of power with no voltage drops and the ability to draw current as required to enable accurate reproduction of dynamic peaks. Also, it provides surge protection from spikes (e.g. lightning, etc.) Is this correct?

If one has a fairly stable voltage source consistently 120V to 125V and is using a dedicated circuit (no microwave or washing machine sharing the circuit), would adding a heavy-duty power conditioner (like the BITS) result in significant sonic improvement. I am currently using a Belkin Power Console PF60, but it is more for the convenience of a single-switch startup (using triggers between the Bryston equipment) than serious power management.

Thank you in advance for any wisdom and experience offered.

Mag

Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #1 on: 1 Apr 2018, 10:58 pm »
For me a power conditioner (Monster AVS 2000) made a noticeable difference. I have pretty much all my audio equipment going through one power outlet. With my Paradigm Studio 100 v2 the voltage meter on my Art 4x4 conditioner would indicate a drop in voltage of between 5 and 8 volts every time low bass notes hit.

An audiophile who was visiting saw this and suggested I buy his used Monster AVS 2000. I was hesitant that it would make a difference but I bought it. Right away after having installed it, I had hard hitting bass slam with each and every bass note.

I would say prior to using the power conditioner my speakers were lagging because of the voltage swings. Now my speakers are fast with hard hitting bass.

I use two Bryston 3B SST/2, SP2, BDA-1, BCD-3, BDP-1, Model T passives, Paradigm Studio 100 v2, Yamaha MG 10 mixer, Sony Blu-ray player.

Elizabeth

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #2 on: 1 Apr 2018, 11:11 pm »
I find there is a tradeoff with using a power conditioner with an amplifier.
The plus is greater clarity.
The minus may be a leanness across the midrange down to the bass.. (or it may just sound like the bass is tighter, less wooly.
Over the years I have alternated plugging my Bryston 4B=SST² amp into the Furman REF20i or into the wall power.
Depending on what I am looking for.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #3 on: 1 Apr 2018, 11:25 pm »
I use Shunyata's conditioners. For my system, a veil was lifted, allowing me to hear deeper into the music, tiny subtle details more clear. Probably the most meaningful qualitative improvement for my system.

cheers

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #4 on: 2 Apr 2018, 06:11 pm »
hi Pundamilla

I purchased a BIT20 about 3 or 4 months ago from an authorized dealer. I'm running all Bryston electronics into it - including my 4BSST2.

My first observation using the BIT 20 was everything seemed to SLOW RTF down. It was a strange sensation. But very real. The instruments seemed further apart...with dead quiet space all around.

I do not have a dedicated circuit at the moment.

Prior to the BIT20, i would notice the lights dimming/flickering in time with  those slamming bass notes. especially at higher volumes.  Now, those power drops in the lights are no longer evident.

But ya, the BIT20 brings a pretty noticeable difference in sound stage and, to me, an overall mellow-ness in the presentation.

Hard to describe, but I hope this helps.

My next move will be dedicated 20a circuit. Might be overkill, but what the hell - it's only a few hundred bucks for an electrician to install.

TJ.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #5 on: 2 Apr 2018, 07:09 pm »
I never had audible problems before, so I didn't get the Torus (BIT 15) to fix a problem in particular, but just to see if things would sound different or better.

With everything plugged into the Torus, I also did feel the music slowed down at first. However, that wasn't the first thing that I noted. Above all, I just remember saying to myself "That sounds DRY." That sensation stuck with me for every track I played that day. It was very noticeable on transients. On some fast and busy passages, you could hear both the music being dryer and slowing down that you could follow along better. I got used to it within a day or two.

I find the biggest payoff is in long-term listening.

BEWARE: The BDP players do not like being plugged into the Torus/BIT, especially if the Torus/BIT is not fully loaded. You will get overvoltage error codes throughout the day. So you might be forced to plug the BDP's into a separate power strip from the wall.

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #6 on: 3 Apr 2018, 10:59 pm »
hey zoom25. cool that you also noticed things seemingly slow down. I'm glad i'm not the only one!  :scratch:
but i have my BDP-1 plugged into the BIT20, and all is well and have not experienced an error issue...


CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #7 on: 4 Apr 2018, 11:30 am »
^ Curious as to whether a BIT20 increased resolution of music -- veil lifted, deeper/wider soundstage, clearer imaging?

Seems to be a property of some, but not all, power conds.

cheers

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2018, 06:34 pm »
hey zoom25. cool that you also noticed things seemingly slow down. I'm glad i'm not the only one!  :scratch:
but i have my BDP-1 plugged into the BIT20, and all is well and have not experienced an error issue...

I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.

James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.

What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #9 on: 4 Apr 2018, 06:53 pm »
Also, what are you guys using for power cables either into the Torus and from the Torus into components?

I don't have much experience with power cables. I've read Bryston's stance before on this.

"When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get. "

http://www.bryston.com/pages/faq.html

I'll share my limited experience.

For the Torus itself, I'm using the supplied 14 AWG cable.

As for the cables from the Torus to the audio components, I have 2 pair of stock black cables. The first batch is unshielded 6 footers 18 AWG. The second batch is shielded 3 footers 14 AWG. I also have a 6 foot 14 AWG shielded for the Torus to wall.

I definitely notice a difference in sound when I swap out the shielded vs unshielded cables. I know they are of slightly different lengths and gauges and shielded vs. unshielded, so it's hard to draw conclusions.

Personally, I don't think the gauge comes to play as the gear isn't drawing anything significant. The length shouldn't be too much of a factor either (3 vs 6 feet). Although, I remember reading some Shunyata material from back then about minimum length. I don't remember the reason or its merit.

I did consider whether the signal cables might be getting influenced by the change in power cables, but I don't think that's the case as the signal cables are very well shielded and twisted and are far away. Plus, I've tried time and time to put all kinds of noisy stuff on the interconnects and the sound never changed.

I find the unshielded more open and natural sounding. The shielded makes things sound a bit closed in and with a slight haze. I also don't find any lack in power or transients with the lower gauge unshielded.

Hard to conclude whether it's actually the shielding, gauge, or length, or combination that's causing a difference in sound. But there it is.

This was the shielded cable for reference: http://www.infinitecables.com/power-cables/nema-power-cords/5-15p-to-c13-power-cords/5-15p-to-c13-shielded-power-cords/6ft-nema-5-15p-to-iec-c13-power-cable-14awg-sjt-shielded/

That's my $0.05

bobf

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #10 on: 4 Apr 2018, 08:17 pm »
I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.

James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.

What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.
I've had a BDP3 plugged into a BIT15 for two months. No problems with the BDP3. 100 watt Moon integrated with DAC and Phono built in so no big power draws.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #11 on: 4 Apr 2018, 09:44 pm »
I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. .... this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3.

I've had no power issues whatsoever with any of my electronics (all in fact) plugged into Shunyata's cond. Including power amps, preamps, CDPs, DACs, and BDP-1/2. Not even a hiccup.

Not sure what the design of the BITs is. Seems odd that BDPs may not "match" with them.

cheers

cheers

TJ-Sully

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #12 on: 5 Apr 2018, 12:59 am »
I was told that the BDP-1 can trip if it's plugged into power conditioners that output high voltage. This can happen with Torus when they aren't sufficiently loaded. I'm definitely not pushing my Torus hard enough. The hungriest thing plugged into it as Amphion Amp100.

James told me that this happens with BDP-1 in particular because the power supply of the BDP-1 isn't as tolerant of voltage fluctuations as the ones in BDP-2 and BDP-3. Although, since then I've found a few reports of BDP-2's tripping as well on power conditioners, including Torus and Furman.

What do you have plugged into your Torus? I wonder if there have been any changes to the power supplies of the BDP's throughout their lifespan to address this. I bought a used BDP-1 and I think it's an early unit.


hey Zoom

Not sure what to say about the BDP-1 tripping on the BIT's - haven't had an issue at all.
I pretty much have ALL my electronics plugged into my BIT20>> 4BSST2, BDA2, BDP1, BP20, OPPO 203, Classe CA100, and LG OLED TV!   

I think my BDP-1 is an early unit as well.

As for power cords in your next post, I DO find power cords make a difference. I was a non-believer forever until I bought a PS Audio power cable on the used market for less than $200.  I plugged it into my 4BSST2 and it made a very noticeable difference immediately. I even brought my wife over to the listening position and did the A/B test without telling her which cable was the new one. She picked out the difference right away. More clear bass lines, especially.

SO....while I think i understand the logic in the miles and miles of cables - for some reason the last 3 feet makes a difference.  I also use PS Audio cables for the BDA2 and BDP1.

TJ

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #13 on: 5 Apr 2018, 02:07 am »
I've had a BDP3 plugged into a BIT15 for two months. No problems with the BDP3. 100 watt Moon integrated with DAC and Phono built in so no big power draws.

That's good to hear.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #14 on: 5 Apr 2018, 02:37 am »

hey Zoom

Not sure what to say about the BDP-1 tripping on the BIT's - haven't had an issue at all.
I pretty much have ALL my electronics plugged into my BIT20>> 4BSST2, BDA2, BDP1, BP20, OPPO 203, Classe CA100, and LG OLED TV!   

I think my BDP-1 is an early unit as well.

As for power cords in your next post, I DO find power cords make a difference. I was a non-believer forever until I bought a PS Audio power cable on the used market for less than $200.  I plugged it into my 4BSST2 and it made a very noticeable difference immediately. I even brought my wife over to the listening position and did the A/B test without telling her which cable was the new one. She picked out the difference right away. More clear bass lines, especially.

SO....while I think i understand the logic in the miles and miles of cables - for some reason the last 3 feet makes a difference.  I also use PS Audio cables for the BDA2 and BDP1.

TJ


That makes sense with your load. That's good that you can have your BDP plugged into the Torus.

Regarding the power cables, I have limited practical experience, but I've been some explanations out there. I don't doubt your experiences, but am puzzled by the mechanisms by which they sound different.

The power draw argument doesn't make sense to me. If I have 14/12 AWG wiring for 15A/20A circuit respectively throughout the wall, then how does the last few feet put so much strain on the power draw, especially if the components used draw little power and you are using low gauge power cables. If you stick 12 or 14 gauges for each component, then it's practically the same as the wire behind the wall. It should still be a low impedance connection.

The other thing that I can think of is shielding. Either the shield helps keep the noise out or the noise inside that is generated by the components themselves. In that case I can see how the shielding of a cable might provide benefit in the local environment of the rack.

In my rig, I've tried placing very noisy things on top of my gear and cables to induce problems, but that doesn't cause any problems either.

There is another thing that I've been wondering about: if the shielding is not required, does it cause more problems than its unshielded counterpart. Could the shielding be negatively affecting the sound, while perhaps making things sound nice in some people's rig. For example, some people like using shielded CAT7 cables with ground attached for example, even though that's introducing noise to the ground plane.

Here's a thought/practical experiment that I would love to do or have someone do. Suppose you have a shielded room that completely blocks out any external noise and there is nothing inside that room that can cause problems. In that room you have a single audio component like a media player + DAC + headphone amp built into the chassis (like a BDP+BDA+BHA in one body). So no interconnects or other cables required. The radiation argument won't matter here. Only thing required is a power cable that can be plugged into the wall. The incoming power from the other side is very clean, if not perfect textbook.

In that situation, I wonder if an unshielded or shielded made of similar design and gauge would perform better than the other. Would the shielding be working against it? In this case the shielding is not required, so would the addition of a shield help or make things worse?

I've read a few times that Vovox recommends their unshielded stuff over their shielded stuff for every cable type, even though their shielded equivalent cable costs more. They find that the shielding makes things worse and is compromising to the signal. They think of shielding as a necessarily evil, to be used only when required.

I'm just thinking out loud. I just realized that aside from the wire, I haven't even considered the connector as far as impedance goes.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #15 on: 5 Apr 2018, 12:04 pm »
The old argument that the last 3 ft of wiring don't make any difference isn't necessarily true. A good power cond can improve SQ by blocking component-to-component interference, etc.
 
The analogy I like to make is that I have a Brita filter installed on my tap nozzle -- the "last 6 inches". It gives me cleaner water, despite the possibly dirtier piping behind it in the walls.

cheers

Speedskater

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #16 on: 5 Apr 2018, 03:14 pm »
................................................
Regarding the power cables, I have limited practical experience, but I've been some explanations out there. I don't doubt your experiences, but am puzzled by the mechanisms by which they sound different.

The power draw argument doesn't make sense to me. If I have 14/12 AWG wiring for 15A/20A circuit respectively throughout the wall, then how does the last few feet put so much strain on the power draw, especially if the components used draw little power and you are using low gauge power cables. If you stick 12 or 14 gauges for each component, then it's practically the same as the wire behind the wall. It should still be a low impedance connection.
....................................... ...
Yep, it's a series circuit going all the way back to that big power company transformer down the street.  From a power/current perspective, think of it as a long chain, so replacing a few links with bigger links won't make the chain any stronger.
But that's not to say that all power cords are good cords.  One day I measured the cords in my spares box with a very good Ohm meter. Knowing their length and AWG size some of the  cords did not measure anywhere near whit I expected.
Note that only big power amps care about the strength of the chain (I mean the-end-to-end resistance of the AC power system).

Quote
The other thing that I can think of is shielding. Either the shield helps keep the noise out or the noise inside that is generated by the components themselves. In that case I can see how the shielding of a cable might provide benefit in the local environment of the rack.
The one other way that the last 3 or 6 feet of the AC cord can impact the sound is:  In rare cases hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). But I'm sure that it's not a problem with Bryston equipment.  So different cord construction and/or length and/or shielding can impact this problem.

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #17 on: 5 Apr 2018, 04:20 pm »
Yep, it's a series circuit going all the way back to that big power company transformer down the street.  From a power/current perspective, think of it as a long chain, so replacing a few links with bigger links won't make the chain any stronger.
But that's not to say that all power cords are good cords.  One day I measured the cords in my spares box with a very good Ohm meter. Knowing their length and AWG size some of the  cords did not measure anywhere near whit I expected.
Note that only big power amps care about the strength of the chain (I mean the-end-to-end resistance of the AC power system).
The one other way that the last 3 or 6 feet of the AC cord can impact the sound is:  In rare cases hi-fi power cords can act as noise/interference antennas (both transmitting and receiving). But I'm sure that it's not a problem with Bryston equipment.  So different cord construction and/or length and/or shielding can impact this problem.

I'll take a look at the shielding design. I've been told it's an aluminum mylar foil. Waiting to find out if the drain is connected on both ends or only one.

I think this post echoes something similar to yours, but it's probably more related to amplifiers: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/audiphile-power-cords

Quote
With power cords its all about voltage drop across the cord. Some of that is at 60Hz, and some of that is much much higher- well above 30KHz-100KHz depending on the power supply in the unit with which it is being used.

I've seen a 2 1/2 volt drop rob an amplifier of about 30% of its output power. The cord was rated for 10 amps, and the draw was about 6 amps. This measurement was done with a simple 3 1/2 digit Digital Voltmeter.

The more insidious problem is high frequency bandwidth. The power supplies of most amplifiers have a power transformer, a set of rectifiers, and a set of filter capacitors. The rectifiers only conduct when the power transformer output is higher than that of the filter caps. So:

When the caps are fully charged the amp is able to play. As it does so, the caps are discharged until the AC line voltage waveform gets high enough again that the rectifiers in the power supply are able to conduct. Depending on the state of charge of the filter capacitors, this might only be for a few microseconds or it might be a few milliseconds. Either way, the charge is a spike which has very steep sides- and requires some bandwidth to make it happen.

If the power cord has poor high frequency response, it will current limit on these spikes. This can result is subtle modulations in the power supply or even a sagging power supply voltage.

Romex wiring found in many buildings actually works quite well. So it really becomes all about that last few feet and also how well the power cord is terminated- molded cords generally are not terminated very well. If the ends of your power cord get warm after a while, you know you have a problem!

This can be measured, its quantifiable and also audible as many audiophiles know. Anyone who tells you differently probably has not bothered to do any measurements- please refer them to this post.

I can go into more depth but this is it in a nutshell. Incidentally, Shunyata Research is refining an instrument that does a more in-depth analysis of what this is all about. At the link you will see that their tests essentially confirm what I have said here.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #18 on: 5 Apr 2018, 04:28 pm »
The old argument that the last 3 ft of wiring don't make any difference isn't necessarily true. A good power cond can improve SQ by blocking component-to-component interference, etc.
 
The analogy I like to make is that I have a Brita filter installed on my tap nozzle -- the "last 6 inches". It gives me cleaner water, despite the possibly dirtier piping behind it in the walls.

cheers

The first one is more about radiation, which makes sense. The second sounds more like filtering. How are normal passive power cables filtering? Although I've heard that argument before. I still don't understand Shunyata's minimum length suggestion. They mention more here:

http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/

zoom25

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Re: Bryston Amps and Power Conditioning
« Reply #19 on: 5 Apr 2018, 04:30 pm »
So which specialty cables does Gary Dayton recommend here at the end:

https://youtu.be/zjsFv5YpcFo?t=2m2s