High Frequency units - true or myth

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Tinker

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Re: High Frequency units - true or myth
« Reply #20 on: 23 Jul 2009, 11:34 am »
WARNING - LONG TEDIOUS POST AHEAD.

The problem with answering questions like this definively is lack of data.  The relevant variables can probably be decomposed into three questions:
1. What frequency range does the target (music) occupy
2. What frequency range can the human ear/brain hear over
3. Given that playback systems must distort (i.e., are not faithful to the orginal) the signal somewhat, what type of distortions are harmful and what type are inaudible or at least benign

A major problem with answering this question is that (2) is not an engineering question and is very difficult to determine. It requires complex psychophysical experiments - this is basically the scientific quantification of subjective experience. 

The coventional wisdom is that the structure of the ear does not allow the transduction of soundawaves below about 20-30Hz, although we can feel low bass through vibratio of the chest cavity and the vestibular organs. Careful studies (and subjective impression) are pretty convincing that reproducing very low bass, while not heard, adds to the realism, enjoyment etc of music and movies. Seveeral thousand published scientific studies speak to the issues so flippantly described in this paragraph.

The conventional wisdom is also that we can't hear much above 20Khz (or much less). This is based on the observations: people do not report hearing tones higher than this, that the basilar membrane does not have resonant points for these frequencies, and that there is little (no?) auditory brainstem activites for tones at higher frequencies, to name but a few reasons.  In fact for frequencies above 5kHz people have a sense the pitch is "high" but do not form a subjective impression of a "note" (like C#, F, etc) and melodies transposed to this range do not sound musical.  It is instructive to note that the fundamental of the highest piano note is 4186Hz, that is around 4k - well inside this "I can hear a defnite note" area. However, while the fundamental pitch of instruments rarely goes above 5k there are harmonics in most instruments that go out to 30K or even much higher. Remember however, that while there are 8-9 octaves in the muscial range, teh 20-40K band is only one more octave and the next octave is 80K and almost no-one is willing to say there is anything useful out there.

The assumption underlying a lot of gear design (CD players particularly) is that since there is no measureable human response to sounds above 20K cutting these frequencies out will have no impact on the perception of recorded music. We can save an engineering headache by not bothering to deal with sounds above 20K.  Again, the CONVENTIONAL wisdom is that we don't need to record this, and while there are thousands of articles on ~20K being the limit, there are only a few dozen articles which show any sort of subjective or neural response to >20K frequencies, and at least half of these have methodological flaws. 

Three tentative possbilities emerge
i) we are wrong about the limits of human hearing and need to build much wider bandwidth gear (assuming there is anything meaningfully musical up beyond 20K)
ii) we are right about the limits of human hearing, which means that any shortcomings are the result of (3) distortions in the playback medium

<science bit over, the rest just my opinion>
I have gone on record as being a fan (but willing to change my mind) of (ii).  Filtering (in the form of deliberate or unintended band limiting) introduces artifacts into the signal, and I believe it is these artifacts which harm the sound.  Wide-bandwidth sources minimise these filtering artifacts and lead to better reproduction of in-band sounds. 

My 2c again.

Very interesting discussion. Thanks to everyone who is chiming in.

T.

LM

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Re: High Frequency units - true or myth
« Reply #21 on: 24 Jul 2009, 01:57 am »
Hi T,

Tedious?  No.   Interesting?  Yes.

I would like to take a couple of your points even further though.  I suspect many discussing this subject tend to think of the ear alone as providing hearing rather than adding in the brain as a part of the 'system' as you have done.   Essentially, the ear is merely a sensor or transducer and as you correctly point out, a rather limited (in FR) one.  It is the brain that does the legwork in interpretation and as you also point out, is well proven to be able to sense and interpret vibrations lower in frequency than the ears can pick up.

The nub of the question raised on this thread however is can the human body when bathed in sound frequencies 'above' what the ears can sense, somehow pickup or sense these higher frequency vibrations and have the brain interpret them.   I rather suspect yes though I cannot cite any papers that prove it.  However, there is a wealth of research on the evolution of vibration sensing in animals from single cells to mammals and we may still retain some of that primitive capability throughout our bodies.  It's far more a matter of faith in the possible rather than the provable as a concept though and I may be completely wrong.

Nevertheless, back to the brain for a moment.  I do think we also tend to forget that that this whole can of worms called hifi is fundamentally about reproducing what gives us pleasure.  I'm not looking to Hugh's amps or speakers to accurately reproduce the dulcet tones of a chain saw at full throttle or a jet engine in my music room.  I do want to hear good music though.

Most musical instruments are of course just that.  Musical.  They don't make a disturbing assortment of sounds (noise) nor do they generally produce only pure tones.  They are designed to produce a suite of harmonics with each note played that will please us - our brains in the mix again.  If that reproduction in a hifi system is compromised by introduced discordant harmonics or 'something missing' in the reproduced ultra high frequency harmonics whether I can prove that I can hear it or not, I will be less than fully satisfied.  On the other hand, if there has to be introduced colorations, I would much rather have the pleasurable mainly even order tones than discordant ones.   After all, where would the electric guitar enthusiasts be without the characteristic Marshall amp distortions of your favourite pub band.  :duh:

And this is 'all' just opinion.

Felipe

Re: High Frequency units - true or myth
« Reply #22 on: 24 Jul 2009, 08:23 am »
Reading LM thoughts i've just remembered something... would a person who is hearing impaired (100% deaf) have a say on this ?
I did read some papers in the past, and i believe is common sense too, there are deaf people that like music because they can feel the vibrations through their body. So assuming the idea of the brain being able to capture that information through other parts of our bodies rather than the ear, besides low bass vibes... what is out there? If the theory that excludes the ear to receive frequencies outside 20-20K is correct...i believe this could prove someting?
Maybe its a stupid thought...i am sorry  :?
Filipe


Tinker

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Re: High Frequency units - true or myth
« Reply #23 on: 24 Jul 2009, 11:41 am »
I don't think it's a dumb question.

There are at least two types of vibration sensitive organs in the skin.  There are also the so call "free" nerve endings. Some have a role in pain, but no one is 100% sure what all of them are for. I think it comes down to the fact that nobody has really bothered to fully explore how they respond to sound.

Anybody out there aware of research on this topic?

T.