Very impressed!

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Adam M

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Very impressed!
« on: 25 Jul 2006, 04:00 am »
Hello,

I've been lurking here for quite a while, doing research on my next set of speakers... This is my first post.

Today i took a drive out to see Al, and his speakers.  I've been researching stuff from all over the world, England, Australia, the US.  Funnily/lucky for me, Raw Acoustics is a 20 minute drive away!  Too bad i didn't know of this before i spent a bunch on my previous speakers...  ANYWAY....
 
For some background, i've had a lot of different speakers over the years:  Mission, B&W, Klipsch, Advent, Mackie monitors, Energy, Mordaunt Short, etc.  I've got a small recording studio at home and build/mod tube amps.  My current active lineup are some KT90 single ended tube monoblocks, rega P3 turntable, various cartridges, custom tube preamp, Nakamichi CD, hand built interconnects/speaker cables (secret formula explained at end of message). Klipsch and Mission speakers - but i'm not happy with them - hence this trip.  I like gear at that performance/value apex.  After a point, it's serious diminishing returns with many items.. ridiculous money for micro incremental improvements. Anyways, i'm digressing, on with the review!

I'd like to share my thoughts on a review today of a few speakers in Al's line.   The HT3's, HT8's, 95dB towers, and the Apex II's.  Thanks for your time today AL :)

I brought two discs to test them with: Goldfrapp 'Supernature' and Portishead 'Dummy'  because they're well recorded, very dynamic, have female vocals and a lot of bass at a variety of frequencies.  The Goldfrapp album in particular, can really freak out some speakers due to it's wide response, raw recording of some elements and very punchy melodic bass, together with very delicate sections (plus i love the music :)

--HT3's--  Wow.  These speakers have a serious identity crisis. You know those small dogs that think they're dobermans?  That begins to describe the HT3's.  Initially my brain had trouble accepting what my ears heard from what my eyes saw.  The side firing Extremis coupling to the floor offers a level of bass that's a bit beyond surprising.  Very clear midrange, big open light and effortless soundstage.    They're a little thirsty (84-85dB) but Al was powering them with a Yamaha integrated amp of no significant pedigree, which did just fine. Surprising that he demo'd with such an ordinary amp, but i guess that goes to show what you can expect with even moderate gear.

After comparing the HT3's to the other speakers, they did show limitations in quantity of sound, as well as their presentation style- but hey, this is against much bigger and more expensive speakers.  I felt they were really dynamic and alive, youthful in a way, however their presentation wasn't as forward or as detailed and refined, say mature, as their bigger relatives.

For the price, and their size, they just blew me away. If size/SAF is an issue and you want some big sound from a small tower, these just can't be beat. When you factor the price, they're a steal.



--HT8's--   I'll cut to the chase.  I bought the HT8's.   Somewhat bigger than the HT'3s, but still very small for the amount of sound they give out, these were just the perfect balance of size/performance.   Utterly effortless giant soundstage.  These ribbon tweeters are a marvel, the sweetspot is so massive - you can walk towards the speakers and the center image stays until you're practically in the middle between them.  The lateral off-axis response of the tweeters is ridiculous, but they don't have as high a vertical dispersion, so if you're tall and standing, you can get outside of them when you're close. Tight controlled musical bass, and that airy dynamic midrange.  I heard things in the music i brought that i previously hadn't before.  Slight distortion on some of the sounds, different amounts of compression on elements in the recording. Very exposing, but not in a dry way like, say, planar speakers can be, they just were extremely accurate. Their higher sensitivity than the HT3's at 88dB - was a contributing element to my decision because i'll use tube amps for quiet listening.  The were just -more- than the HT3's, and they should be. The extra midrange in the d'appolito config does add substance to the midrange, and theoretically a larger sweetspot.

One interesting aspect of the HT3 and HT8, with the side firing extremis bass, is that you can configure them in different ways to control room response.  Al informed me that having the drivers on the outside facing the wall will couple the room/corners more adding significantly to the low end response.  Switching the speakers will minimize that.  Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide.  That's a cool option for when you might be in an apartment, but want the scalability of you move to a house, or have a party, etc. etc.

For me the HT8 was the perfect price/size/performance choice.  Initially, i was planning to get the Apex II's, but after seeing their size, and hearing that the differences between the HT8's and them were noticeable but not significant enough when i considered the size (to me) the HT8's got the vote.  I got the upgraded capacitor option for the midranges, also feeling that was a good price/performance stance.   

--Apex II's--   I was surprised by how large these were.  I actually intended on purchasing the Apex II's, but the size threw me off a bit.  While very handsome, i'm not blessed with an overly large 2 channel room, so these would not be ideal for me.  They were however, fantastic.  That back-firing driver really adds some spooky depth to the image.  I heard keyboards dangling above and waay behind in the soundstage which was a little unbelievable.   They felt similar to the HT8's - but like the HT8's were to the HT3's, these were even 'more' compared to the HT8's, but less of an increment.   If you have the room, you'd be hard pressed to ask for more of anything with these.

--95dB's--  (Al, is there a proper name for these guys yet??:)   These were the best speakers there, and perhaps the best i've yet heard.  I wanted to stay there for hours and try out all sorts of stuff, but that wouldn't be fair.  To be fair to myself, i shouldn't have even listened to them since they're not yet available!  On paper, these are practically perfect: 95dB, small footprint, pretty, high SAF.  In practice they were incredible.   I'll spare you my verbal prolixities.  I'll just leave it by saying that these things just teleport music into a room like i've never heard before. 

They're not yet ready, i probably won't be able to afford them, i'm moving to Austrailia before they'll be done, i'll try not to think about them anymore starting..... NOW.

Thanks for letting me visit Al.  I can't wait to get my HT8's rolling.  You've made some wonderful speakers.

Cheers,
/Adam

A



PS  The secret best interconnect and speaker cable i've found is this:  Go to a used computer store.  Buy old SCUSI printer cables.  They're pure OFC, 60 conductor, woven and shielded.  Wire half hot and half cold and ground the shield.  Their impedance and capacitance is EXTREMELY low.  You'd have to pay hundreds if not more to surpass them.   You can also find them for $5 each sometimes.  Booya!


audioferret

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jul 2006, 01:23 pm »
I really have to agree with you on the HT3s.  I just built a pair and they have finally settled my speaker lust.  I used to kvetch and complain about never being able to afford the speakers I wanted, but I ache no more.  After the HT3s, I have no desire to upgrade...unless the HT8s become a possibility...

Did you get to hear the HT2s?  I think I want some for my HT.  I hear that Secrets will publish a review soon...

;)

RAW

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jul 2006, 02:01 pm »
Adam
Thanks for the great comments. :thumb:
I find the HT3 little dog comment so fitting as well.The HT3 has one heck of a bit for its size and price.

Was a great time glad you enjoyed yourself, I am sure you will have no issue with getting someone in the land of down under to build the HT8 for you.

All best of luck in your new location :dance:

Al Garay

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #3 on: 27 Jul 2006, 03:55 am »
Adam,

If you had no constraints (you had the room, budget, all speakers are available), which speakers would you have selected - the ApexII or 95db perhaps?

Are the 95db sealed? I could not find a reference to sealed, ported.... Will you have matching speakers available for center and surround?

thanks,

Al
« Last Edit: 27 Jul 2006, 04:21 am by Al Garay »

EProvenzano

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #4 on: 27 Jul 2006, 04:04 am »
I'd like to drop a quick hello and extend a warm thank you to Al for his hospitality as he hosted me to a 2 hour demo yesterday.

He certainly has some very special designs and I plan to post some of my thoughts once I return home from vacation.

 :thumb: :D

Al Garay

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #5 on: 27 Jul 2006, 04:06 am »

C'mon EP! You have internet access... Just a quick summary, the elevator version.

RAW

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #6 on: 27 Jul 2006, 04:19 am »
Al
Hands down space no object would be the Apex II with the Apex C center.
For surrounds the Apex II for 5.1 or 7.1 use Apex C across the rear all RL,RR,RC.

The new MTM coming will use our new RA165.16 plus a MT coming will be  using the RA165.8.

Now the people who have been able to drop by and listen , also got to see the new frame for the 5.25" and this driver will have the same motor as the RA165 series drivers.And yes both 8 and 16 ohm driver as well.Also using the same soft parts.

This will open up a new line of kits as well as finished speakers.

Now so far the new MTM is very very popular and if the drivers were here now Adam would have well I will not put words in his mouth.But he settled for the HT8 :thumb:

RMAF
 :scratch: What to bring Apex II,HT8,new MTM

RAW

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #7 on: 27 Jul 2006, 04:24 am »
Thanks for dropping by on your vaction out west.
Always have time to demo  :guitar: :drums:

adam m

  • Guest
If money / room no object
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jul 2006, 02:36 am »
Al Garay, to answer your question:

"If you had no constraints (you had the room, budget, all speakers are available), which speakers would you have selected - the ApexII or 95db perhaps?"

A tough question for sure.  Let me add a bit of context:  I'm not looking for home theater. That's a seperate room for me.  My thinking and listening rationale for these speakers is purely 2 channel.

I also have to say that i didn't spend all day there reviewing them.  Al entertained me for 2-3 hours or so and we heard a number of speakers as well as him showing me raw drivers and the crossovers, etc.  It was a great experience, but don't think i critically listened for hours on end.  A couple of tracks on each set.

The Apex II's are were about all you could ask for.  Incredible range, totally invisible, huge depth and with the back driver turned on, one of the deepest soundstages i've heard.  Forget Mirage bi-polars or planars.  These utterly filled the room with sound, the sweet spot is giant.  You would be hard pressed to find issue with them, room/size not a factor.

Here's where it gets tricky.  Those crazy 95dB'ers.  Somehow, those 95dB'ers had that giant soundstage, without a back firing driver.  I have no idea how that works. 

When Al was switching over from the Apex II's to the 95dB's, i quickly came up with 3 predictions: the 95dB'ers are going be a bit louder (+7dB up on sensitivity). They're going to be little less solid with the bottom end, and since lacking the rear-fire, less depth to the presentation.  I was 1/3 on my predictions.  They were louder, for sure, but the bottom end and depth were also there.  That's where i was floored.

As many have tried before, i asked about the kit, buying them right then and there, etc. etc.  Al's been through that before! they're not for sale :)

I guess it depends on what you want to do with them.  I'd bet the Apex II's would party harder than the 95dB's, if you're into very loud levels.  I could be wrong on that, but there is more speaker area with the Apex II's.  We didn't crank it so i don't know.

There's that term 'market self cannibalization' - when you release products that are so good, they compete with your other exisitng ones.   Will the 95dB's hurt the Apex II's?   I can't say since they're very different speakers: Size, height, room placement, amplifier matching, etc. etc.   You really need to see them and have a listen.   I can say they're both bloody amazing, and if Al had a 95dB kit ready, i would have taken one home right there and then!  For me the size and sensitivity would have been deciding factors and tipped the scale towards the 95dB's

.... My HT8's are going to do just fine though :)

A


RAW

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #9 on: 28 Jul 2006, 02:52 am »
Adam.
OK if you have a few minutes tomorrow when you come back we will give them a little power how is that.
 :dance:

EProvenzano

Re: If money / room no object
« Reply #10 on: 6 Aug 2006, 03:57 pm »
Here's where it gets tricky.  Those crazy 95dB'ers.  Somehow, those 95dB'ers had that giant soundstage, without a back firing driver.  I have no idea how that works. 


This echos my experience.
I'm not a fan of long pros, so here are my observations, in-brief, regarding the 95MTM and the Apex II
.
I think Al's 95db MTM is a very special sounding speaker.  It presents a certain magic about the sound that I'm having a hard time quantifying into adjectives for all who are interested.

I do believe that the ribbon is the foundation for all these designs, and I don't mean simply because it's used in all the models under discussion.  In my opinion it is the shining quality standard in all.  The tweeter is incredibly detailed and still incredibly non-fatiguing.  The tweeter always threw incredible ambiance and a huge sound stage.  Further more, most of my listening material was exposed for all its faults.  I was disappointed with the travel music I had brought.  Luckily Al had some well recorded CD's at the ready.

I currently own Ellis 1801's.  The new driver's sound is more similar to the Seas W18 than I expected.  It seemed to present all the detail of the W18 and possibly slightly less lean in the mid-bass.  I would need to do a side by side comparison to tell the differences more accurately.

As noted in an earlier post, the 95 MTM presented a very deep sound stage only matched by the Apex with ambient driver activated.  This was shocking to me.  I don't think I've heard a conventional box speaker throw such a deep sound stage.  The ambient driver on the Apex would prove superiority in this regard, simply because its output is variable and could be fine tuned to taste.

The speakers where not nearly set up properly.  Since time was short Al moved from speaker to speaker relatively quickly.  I enjoyed about 20 minutes of listening with each model.  A further testament to the imaging was that the boundary distances, nor toe-in, were ideal. 

My preference for bass was definitely with the new driver.  I enjoyed the more accurate textured bass presented by the RA165.16, rather than the fuller deeper bass presented by the Extrimis.  Some users might choose to augment the new driver with a sub if they want 20-25hz extension. 

Please feel free to ask questions.  I'll do my best to respond.
Thank you.

PS Al, if you don't mind, would you share some cross-over details, like slope order and cross-over point for the 95MTM?  I'm assuming you'll publish the speaker measurements once they are available.

Thanks again for hosting me to some fine listening!

Thanks




RAW

Re: Very impressed!
« Reply #11 on: 6 Aug 2006, 04:06 pm »
Was treat to have you here , well I was gone :oops: :(

With the new LX II coming (MTM) LX I is the MT both use our new drivers RA165.16 (MTM) and the RA165.8 in the MT.

The LX II will be available in a tower ported design plus a TL design this TL design is coming but the ported MTM tower is finished and we will have all the data coming up on the new site.
Crossover points ?
along with slopes
6th order and 4th order.

Yes there will be a slae price as well put on the MTM kit in Sept without baffles and grills.

These new LX series have a lot of weight behind them as noted.