Bryston Loudspeakers

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James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #480 on: 24 Jul 2012, 08:06 pm »
James, will Bryston dealers carry these speakers or will it be a special order from Bryston?

Only select Bryston dealers - not all.

james

Alpha10

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #481 on: 24 Jul 2012, 08:10 pm »
Only select Bryston dealers - not all.

james

Vipers you better get yourself to the front of the queue  :D

spinner

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #482 on: 24 Jul 2012, 10:38 pm »
  Good idea James. Some dealers are not what they where. :nono:

redbook

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #483 on: 24 Jul 2012, 10:46 pm »
 Yeh,  that is for sure. Some dealers have their own agenda due to local  ownership changes. :whip:

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #484 on: 25 Jul 2012, 02:09 am »

...Also the bottom Plinth will be an option...


Hi James - in all the testing, does the "plinth" add anything to the resonance and therefore, improve or degrade the sonic performance in any manner?  What effect - regardless of how small, does the plinth have on the sound / measurements and in what situations might it actually be a "recommended" option.  Thanks.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #485 on: 25 Jul 2012, 02:22 am »
Hi James - in all the testing, does the "plinth" add anything to the resonance and therefore, improve or degrade the sonic performance in any manner?  What effect - regardless of how small, does the plinth have on the sound / measurements and in what situations might it actually be a "recommended" option.  Thanks.

No the plinth is strictly cosmetic.

James

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #486 on: 25 Jul 2012, 02:36 am »
James,

Have you had the chance to compare the Model T, against say, a PMC IBI2.

Can you comment on the differences, or will this type of information be released at a later date.

I owned an IB2 and agree with James that it is a great speaker. But I own an Axiom M80 speaker and to my ears it is a better speaker than the IB2 - more linear and accurate, and with better imaging. The Model T has been described to me as sounding like an M80 on steroids. So how would the Model T compare to the IB2? Do the math.  :D

I did and am going to buy a Model T sight unseen.

Dave

adol290

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #487 on: 25 Jul 2012, 03:20 am »
I currently own the IB2i's, and yes they are a great speaker.

I know james has also owned them. The fact that he has been able to create a speaker that
 he really likes, and is ready to bring to market, says a lot.

Plus, I have always liked the idea of speaker with multiple drivers for the highs, mids, and lows.
I am curious of how much more they will fill the room, than my IB2's. If I like them, then I would end up
 buying the matching center and surrounds.

I will not get the chance to listen to them in person, so I will also take a chance and just buy them.

mr_bill

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #488 on: 25 Jul 2012, 04:06 am »
James,
what is the brown color in the bottom picture of the custom finishes post - is that a walnut finish?

Also, are you doing black drivers or silver drivers?  Your bedroom set up shows silver drivers.

Thanks,

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #489 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:07 am »
James,
what is the brown color in the bottom picture of the custom finishes post - is that a walnut finish?

Also, are you doing black drivers or silver drivers?  Your bedroom set up shows silver drivers.

Thanks,

Hi,

I think it is called African Walnut?

The white drivers were the prototypes - we are using the Black for production.

james

JohnR

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #490 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:14 am »
Are the two tweeters running in parallel?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #491 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:22 am »
Are the two tweeters running in parallel?

Hi John - yes - all the drivers are handling the appropriate frequency range in parallel.  I know we are going to get into major discussions about comb filtering etc. but believe me we have research this for many years now and implemented correctly and given our design goals of no dynamic compression and excellent power response this solution worked best.

Ultimately people will have to listen for themselves but I have always felt that real world dynamics was something lacking in many speakers I have owned.

james

Marius

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #492 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:33 am »
HI James,

real world dynamics is indeed what we always strive to hear, but never do, other than in real life...
If this is going to work, i'm in for Model T. Cant wait  to hear a life size orchestra in my auditorium. Have you tested classical music too? A grand scale orchestra is not only about dynamics, but also about size and proximity. WOuld love to have that finally.

Is there any difference in this real world dynamics aspect between the active and passive modelT? (maybe some specs could help me, cause I've always thought that active speakers included their own amps, and your active model T needs outboard amps?. Just like the passive model T?)

Marius

JohnR

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #493 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:35 am »
Hi John - yes - all the drivers are handling the appropriate frequency range in parallel.  I know we are going to get into major discussions about comb filtering etc. but believe me we have research this for many years now and implemented correctly and given our design goals of no dynamic compression and excellent power response this solution worked best.

Ultimately people will have to listen for themselves but I have always felt that real world dynamics was something lacking in many speakers I have owned.

Hah, you read my mind :D I have no cards to play. But I'm interested in learning, and this seems to be one of those strangely-contentious areas in audio. A simple thought experiment says that, if one were to play a mono signal though a pair of loudspeakers, just the simple and unavoidable fact that there is a certain distance between your ears will result in "comb filtering". I've never heard anyone complain about that... or put an earplug in one ear to avoid it - that would of course make no sense at all. More here than meets the microphone then? I look forward to reading more.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #494 on: 25 Jul 2012, 10:54 am »
Hah, you read my mind :D I have no cards to play. But I'm interested in learning, and this seems to be one of those strangely-contentious areas in audio. A simple thought experiment says that, if one were to play a mono signal though a pair of loudspeakers, just the simple and unavoidable fact that there is a certain distance between your ears will result in "comb filtering". I've never heard anyone complain about that... or put an earplug in one ear to avoid it - that would of course make no sense at all. More here than meets the microphone then? I look forward to reading more.

Hi John,

You got it :thumb:  Simply stated, comb filtering is two signals arriving at the same location at different times. Because of the differences in the arrival times, the sound waves will have additions when they perfectly overlap and reinforce each other, and also have cancellations or nulls where they cancel each other out (the latter is called destructive interference).

This occurs in virtually all speaker systems whose musical ranges overlap, where both drivers are reproducing the same sounds, as in stereo or surround sound, and because of multiple drivers with different physical locations used to cover the same frequency range.

I am putting together a more lengthy explanation with measurements we took and will post them soon.

james

JohnR

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #495 on: 25 Jul 2012, 11:57 am »
Thanks James - looking forward to the info.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #496 on: 25 Jul 2012, 12:22 pm »
From AXIOM:

Comb Filtering—Popular Misconceptions

Perhaps it seems odd to discuss the teeth of a comb in connection with loudspeaker sound reproduction or the propagation of real sound waves, but it is relevant.

Comb filtering is a catchy audio phrase that’s used in audio discussions on forums, in articles, and often in the context of critical comments about the specifics of a particular speaker design. The fact is that comb filtering is simply a measurement artifact and does not detract from the listening experience. The research shows that comb filtering is not detrimental to accurate loudspeaker sound reproduction; at worst, it’s irrelevant, at best it actually adds a pleasurable element of spaciousness to stereo and surround sound.

That said, you might ask if it’s a measurement artifact, and careful measurements are instrumental to the scientific approach to acoustics and loudspeaker design that Bryston espouses, then why don’t we hear comb filtering with music and speech? Let’s break it down.

A Microphone Is Not Two Ears
It must be pointed out that a measurement microphone—even a very expensive lab-calibrated model like the one Bryston uses (a B & K)—is like a single ear with no brain. As human beings, we hear with two ears and a brain, the latter being an incredibly sophisticated audio processing unit that is constantly comparing signals received from our two ears and sorting out not only directional cues and amplitude (loudness) differences but also ignoring or disregarding information that might be confusing or detrimental to our sound localization, spatial perception and tonal identification abilities.

What Is Comb Filtering?
Simply stated, comb filtering is two signals arriving at the same location at different times. Because of the differences in the arrival times, the sound waves will have additions when they perfectly overlap and reinforce each other, and also have cancellations or nulls where they cancel each other out (the latter is called destructive interference). This occurs in virtually all speaker systems whose musical ranges overlap, where both drivers are reproducing the same sounds, as in stereo or surround sound, and because of multiple drivers with different physical locations used to cover the same frequency range.

To illustrate how a single measurement microphone “hears” or identifies comb filtering, we set up an interesting experiment in the anechoic chamber. Two quality bookshelf speakers were placed in the chamber 6 feet apart. The calibrated B & K microphone was placed 6.5 feet away and directly in the center in the sweet spot between the two speakers. A standard frequency sweep from 20 Hz to 20 kHz was played back over the two speakers and we recorded the test sweep with the measurement microphone. The purple curve in Figure 1 shows the frequency response with the microphone exactly centered in the sweet spot between the two loudspeakers.


 
Then we moved the measuring microphone ½-inch to the side, off center from the sweet spot, and recorded another frequency-response curve. The green curve in Figure 1 shows the first comb cancellation effect at 15 kHz.

Then we moved the microphone 1 inch off center and ran another curve. In Figure 2, the green curve shows the next comb filter cancellation at 5.5 kHz. In Figure 3, the measurement microphone was moved 8 inches off center from the sweet spot. The dark greenish curve shows the pronounced comb-filtering cancellations beginning just below 1.5 kHz and extending all the way up to 18 kHz. The dips in response resemble the downward teeth of a comb, hence the name “comb filtering”.





The cancellations (dips) are what the single measurement microphone “hears” and measures using a full-frequency test sweep when the signals from the two M2 speakers don’t perfectly overlap. This seems like an acoustic effect that may be potentially nasty in nature and should be avoided. These are pronounced cancellations, yet when we play music or speech over a pair of speakers, we don’t hear these comb filtering effects. Why is that?

How Does the Brain Deal With Comb Effects?
The precedence effect (previously known as the Haas Effect) dictates that our brain and ears pick out the location of a sound source that reaches our ears in the first few milliseconds of a sound’s arrival. The first sound to arrive at the ears enables you to determine the direction of the source. After hearing an initial signal, the brain will suppress any later-arriving signals, up to about 30 milliseconds. These later-arriving signals that show up with steady-state pink noise (within the 30-millisecond window) do not disrupt the brain’s precise localization mechanism. What occurs is that you do not “hear” the contributions of the later-arriving sounds from the adjacent drivers that are responsible for the measurement artifact of comb filtering. Or rather, your brain hears and processes them but disregards them lest they confuse our directional acuity; in fact all they do in the listener is create a sense of added spaciousness. Numerous scientific researchers, including definitive experiments conducted by Dr. Floyd Toole and Dr. Sean Olive, have verified this. Even in a room having lots of reflections, our brains correctly determine the direction of sounds. (By the way, sounds arriving at our ears after a delay of more than 30 milliseconds are perceived as a second sound or echo.)

Critics of comb filtering who believe it to be a big issue in speaker design have the option of listening in mono to avoid the comb filtering. But we all much prefer listening to music and vocalists in stereo—it’s far more spacious and realistic--and the reason is that our brains and two ears simply ignore those cancelling signals that on paper show up with a test signal and a single microphone.

Enthusiasts who would like to read further about comb filtering and psycho-acoustics should explore Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms, by Floyd E. Toole, Focal Press. Available from Amazon.co

FURTHER THOUGHTS: - From Ian at Axiom:
I will start this answer to your “question” with a conclusion; you need not concern yourself with the measurement phenomenon known as comb filtering. Since we produce multi-driver systems here at Bryston we have put much research into understanding the impact of comb filtering on the real world listening environment.

There are huge benefits to using multiple drivers, especially in the area of being able to produce large dynamic range without distortion, so it is not something that should be casually thrown out of your design options. Certainly, on the surface, if you were to only look at the measurements taken by the microphone of comb filtering, without any further research, you would probably decide it is something that must be avoided. But this would be an over simplistic and very counter-productive way to actually design a great sounding loudspeaker. It would be akin to simply taking a bunch of measurements and then go about drawing theoretical conclusions based on those measurements without feeling the need to do any real world testing of your theories. This will result in some great marketing propaganda and some great discussion material in which to back up your theories; but it would not result in a great sounding loudspeaker. The proper approach is to go through the somewhat painstaking process of understanding each measurement and its effect on the final listening experience, paying careful attention to the thresholds of audibility and the interrelationship with other measurements that may hold a greater significance to the end listening performance.

So let’s take a look at comb filtering in this light. First off comb filtering can be measured any time two drive units are playing the same frequency and the microphone is not located exactly equidistant between them. For example, if we take a standard stereo pair of speakers located say 8 feet apart, any movement of the microphone off centre, even as small as ½ inch, will show the affects of comb filtering. In order to avoid comb filtering occurring in our listening environment not only would we have to restrict ourselves to loudspeakers that only used one driver per frequency allocation, which would have huge detrimental effects on the ability to achieve great dynamic range, but we would have to restrict ourselves to only having one speaker in the room, in other words return to listening in mono through one speaker. Given the obvious enormous downside to doing this perhaps first we should review the real world results of comb filtering in our listening environment before rushing off and getting rid of all our speakers save one.

One of the more revealing tests we performed in our lab was to set up a double blind listening test where we had three identical speakers  and compared only playing the single speaker in the middle against playing the two on the outside simultaneously. We conducted this test in two separate sessions; one with the three speakers placed side by side, which gave us about a 15” separation between the drivers playing simultaneously, and one with the two outer speakers placed one meter to each side of the centre speaker. The amplitude response was preset so the two speakers had the same output as the single speaker and only a mono source was used. Not to wander off into a completely different subject, but it is worth at least noting that these sorts of tests must be done double blind. Any attempt to do them sighted or with the participants knowing what is on test will result in the participants who understand the effects of comb filtering on the measurements becoming biased in their judgment. This holds true for virtually all tests in audio and we have proved this over and over.

The results of that test were a clear winner for the widely separated pair and a slight nod for the closely positioned pair; the single speaker lost in both tests. The moral of the story here is to be careful when interpreting your measurement results and falling into the trap of thinking a microphone is giving you the exact results that will be perceived by two ears and a brain. In the case of comb filtering such a simplistic approach to loudspeaker design would cause the designer to throw out all the benefits of multi-driver systems to gain nothing. Forget about having to choose between taking a small degradation in one area in order to achieve a much larger benefit in another, which would also be a valid design decision; in the case of avoiding comb filtering you have to give up a very large benefit to gain absolutely nothing.

I think one of the most eloquent comments ever made regarding the dangers of taking microphone measurements for granted was by Dr. Floyd Toole in one of his papers written back when we were doing our research at the NRC; “A measurement microphone performs a simple transduction of the pressure summation at the diaphragm location, without regard for the direction or timing of the incident sounds. Two ears and a brain, however, are rather more elaborate in their processing”.
« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2012, 01:28 pm by James Tanner »

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #497 on: 25 Jul 2012, 01:38 pm »
HI James,

real world dynamics is indeed what we always strive to hear, but never do, other than in real life...
If this is going to work, i'm in for Model T. Cant wait  to hear a life size orchestra in my auditorium. Have you tested classical music too? A grand scale orchestra is not only about dynamics, but also about size and proximity. WOuld love to have that finally.

Is there any difference in this real world dynamics aspect between the active and passive modelT? (maybe some specs could help me, cause I've always thought that active speakers included their own amps, and your active model T needs outboard amps?. Just like the passive model T?)

Marius

Hi Marius

The main limitation on the passive or the active is the amount of level the drivers can play at with low distortion. So the advantage of the active has more to do with the control factor on the drivers because the amplifier is connected directly to the driver and does not have to deal with coils and caps etc like in a passive system

Warning though :duh: - active systems are ruthless at revealing the source material and are not for everyone :nono:

James

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #498 on: 25 Jul 2012, 02:10 pm »
Hi Marius

The main limitation on the passive or the active is the amount of level the drivers can play at with low distortion. So the advantage of the active has more to do with the control factor on the drivers because the amplifier is connected directly to the driver and does not have to deal with coils and caps etc like in a passive system

Warning though :duh: - active systems are ruthless at revealing the source material and are not for everyone :nono:

James

James, if the Model T is anythng like the Axiom M80 (and I'm assuming they share a common ancestry) my experience with the M80 makes this a very important caution. The M80 reveals more than I've ever heard from a speaker, and that means if a recording is bad the M80 reveals its offenses unmercifully. And on ocassion that can be downright unpleasant. I imagine that the Model T Active will do that to an even greater degree than the M80, and perhaps even the passive versions. Listeners who insist on all recordings sounding sweet definitely should demo.

But I use this analogy about highly revealing speakers. If you love someone who is very beautiful and you want that person to reveal all, it is likely that to enjoy the greater beauty you are more than willing to live with some small blemishes.

For me, anyway, that's preferable to having to discover the beauty through blemishes, or worse, take as beautiful what, in fact, is a blemish.

Truth in speakers, as in life, sometimes is not pretty.

Dave

Marius

Re: Bryston Loudspeakers
« Reply #499 on: 25 Jul 2012, 04:33 pm »
that's one reason extra for me to try the active Model T. Transparency, air and revealing the 'sense of being there is what I've always looked for in a n audio system, being a professional classical musician comparing to what i've always around me in real orchestral life.

Hope it's the kind of electrostat transparency you, (we) 're on to here, with the power of the regular drivers. Might just be the end of a longtime quest, and a real big winner  :thumb:....

can i start trying those T's with only the 28b's bridged over the drivers (and maybe going upward from that, or do they really need separate amps per driver(set) to begin with?

Marius

Hi Marius

The main limitation on the passive or the active is the amount of level the drivers can play at with low distortion. So the advantage of the active has more to do with the control factor on the drivers because the amplifier is connected directly to the driver and does not have to deal with coils and caps etc like in a passive system

Warning though :duh: - active systems are ruthless at revealing the source material and are not for everyone :nono:

James