AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Bigload on 6 Feb 2010, 03:15 pm
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I just ordered my first set of Salk speakers which are my first set of non mass produced speakers as well. I also just got a decent (by my standards) SACD player that will be my main source. So I am sure not coming in here knowing too much about audio as you will see. So please forgive me if I ask something silly! I am just trying to class up my 2 channel listening a little and need some help.
I now want to get a decent amp and preamp. I have read quite a bit here and it seems most guys prefer AVA. It seems second preference is Parasound. And it seems Emotiva is OK for those wanting to spend the absolute least and still have something that works decent. At least that is what I think I am getting from reading the threads. I have been on all of these mfg's web sights trying to look at individual models and here is what I am coming up with... (more questions than answers)
1. AVA- Preamp- Either an Insight EC or SL with remote for $1200 to $1350- IS there a reason to choses one over the other?
2. AVA amp- Insight 260- $1400- Is that model a good match for the Salk ST's?
3. AVA integrated SL- $1400- Is that a good way to go? Sure would save a few bucks! Is that a good unit to use with the ST's? This really attractive because of the space and cost. What about the performance? Is there a down side to an integrated?
4. Parasound- A23 and P3 could be purchased for about $1800 total. Parasound was not the most frequently recommended, and they are not the lowest cost. I don't know what to think about them.
5. Emotiva- Looked at the UPA-1 mono block amps and the USP-1 preamp. Could get both mono block amps and the preamp for about $1000. I don't know what to think on this either. They get good reviews. Can they be that inexpensive and still do the ST's justice?
Unless I get some wise counsel otherwise, I really lean towards the AVA integrated. Their web sight says they use this unit in their shop to drive some HT3's. Rated for 90w/ch into 8ohms. Wonder what is it into 4 ohms? Does that even matter? And on the Emotiva...that seems like a killer deal for two 350 watt mono amps and preamp. Maybe I should order both and audition them and then send one back? I am confused as heck about this. Are these things all so close that only a seasoned and discerning audio expert hears the difference??
Then... what about cables? I was shocked when I started looking at that!! I saw some interconnects for $9000! How much should you spend to get a good interconnect cable pair 1M long? $50-$150-More.
So in summary, after all of that rambling, two questions......
1. AVA integrated for $1400 or Emotiva mono blocks and preamp for $1000?
2. How much should I spend to get decent interconnects?
Thank you for suffering a fool today!
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1. AVA- Preamp- Either an Insight EC or SL with remote for $1200 to $1350- IS there a reason to choses one over the other?
I chose the Insight EC with tone adjustment for my system because many early rock albums have anemic bass.
What Salk speakers did you order? The size of your room and how loud you play your music will determine how big an amp you need.
The Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm)is a solid choice for AVA equipment.
Wayne
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I chose the Insight EC with tone adjustment for my system because many early rock albums have anemic bass.
What Salk speakers did you order? The size of your room and how loud you play your music will determine how big an amp you need.
The Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 Low Capacitance Audio Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm)is a solid choice for AVA equipment.
Wayne
Wayne :scratch:
Number 2 :thumb:
AVA- Preamp- Either an Insight EC or SL with remote for $1200 to $1350- IS there a reason to choses one over the other?
2. AVA amp- Insight 260- $1400- Is that model a good match for the Salk ST's?
3. AVA integrated SL- $1400- Is that a good way to go? Sure would save a few bucks! Is that a good unit to use with the ST's? This really attractive because of the space and cost. What about the performance? Is there a down side to an integrated?
4. Parasound- A23 and P3 could be purchased for about $1800 total. Parasound was not the most frequently recommended, and they are not the lowest cost. I don't know what to think about them.
5. Emotiva- Looked at the UPA-1 mono block amps and the USP-1 preamp. Could get both mono block amps and the preamp for about $1000. I don't know what to think on this either. They get good reviews. Can they be that inexpensive and still do the ST's justice?
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I ordered the SongTower QWT towers with the standard tweeters.
My room is about 18X18 with high open ceiling to an upstairs balcony.
Thanks.
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I just ordered my first set of Salk speakers which are my first set of non mass produced speakers as well. I also just got a decent (by my standards) SACD player that will be my main source. So I am sure not coming in here knowing too much about audio as you will see. So please forgive me if I ask something silly! I am just trying to class up my 2 channel listening a little and need some help.
I now want to get a decent amp and preamp. I have read quite a bit here and it seems most guys prefer AVA. It seems second preference is Parasound. And it seems Emotiva is OK for those wanting to spend the absolute least and still have something that works decent. At least that is what I think I am getting from reading the threads. I have been on all of these mfg's web sights trying to look at individual models and here is what I am coming up with... (more questions than answers)
1. AVA- Preamp- Either an Insight EC or SL with remote for $1200 to $1350- IS there a reason to choses one over the other?
2. AVA amp- Insight 260- $1400- Is that model a good match for the Salk ST's?
3. AVA integrated SL- $1400- Is that a good way to go? Sure would save a few bucks! Is that a good unit to use with the ST's? This really attractive because of the space and cost. What about the performance? Is there a down side to an integrated?
4. Parasound- A23 and P3 could be purchased for about $1800 total. Parasound was not the most frequently recommended, and they are not the lowest cost. I don't know what to think about them.
5. Emotiva- Looked at the UPA-1 mono block amps and the USP-1 preamp. Could get both mono block amps and the preamp for about $1000. I don't know what to think on this either. They get good reviews. Can they be that inexpensive and still do the ST's justice?
Unless I get some wise counsel otherwise, I really lean towards the AVA integrated. Their web sight says they use this unit in their shop to drive some HT3's. Rated for 90w/ch into 8ohms. Wonder what is it into 4 ohms? Does that even matter? And on the Emotiva...that seems like a killer deal for two 350 watt mono amps and preamp. Maybe I should order both and audition them and then send one back? I am confused as heck about this. Are these things all so close that only a seasoned and discerning audio expert hears the difference??
Then... what about cables? I was shocked when I started looking at that!! I saw some interconnects for $9000! How much should you spend to get a good interconnect cable pair 1M long? $50-$150-More.
So in summary, after all of that rambling, two questions......
1. AVA integrated for $1400 or Emotiva mono blocks and preamp for $1000?
2. How much should I spend to get decent interconnects?
Thank you for suffering a fool today!
:thumb:
According to Frank, all you need is Insight 240 for your ST, but 260 is great for sure. You can also get the new AVAstar preamp, that is supposed to be awesome and get Insight 240. Your total will be in the same 3K range. I thought of AVA integrated, but the separate ones will give you much more flexibilty.
Cannot comment on the other brands you mentioned.
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I originally had an Emotiva XPA2 paired with my ST's and an Odyssey Candela. The combo was very nice but I wanted an even smoother sound and ended up selling the Emotiva after a friend lent me 2 of his Butler TDB2250's which is a tube hybrid amp. All the guts of solid state and smoothness of tubes.
Before -Who Is that guy...shows up everywhere :green:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26378)
After
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26379)
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Who is that guy? An ex-supermodel who has fallen on hard times. Now he will pose with any speaker, anywhere for a beer. :beer: Wink2
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Who is that guy? An ex-supermodel who has fallen on hard times. Now he will pose with any speaker, anywhere for a beer. :beer: Wink2
Sure it was a supermodel ?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26380)
ok lets get back on track here
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Is it a mistake or otherwise ill advised to mix and match by putting an AVA 240 amp with an Emotiva USP-1 Preamp?
And it seems nobody is embracing the AVA Insight Integrated as a good solution??
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I bought a used, "pimped out" version of Frank's integrated early last summer. Its a good piece of equipment and would drive SongTowers pretty well. However, I turned mine in to Frank and got the Insight EC and a double 440 (I was going to drive HT3's but I ended up with HT2-TL's). I also have a double 240 and double 240/3 attached to my SongTower home theater. I also have that Parasound 2100 you mention. I only mention these to give you a background for my comments here about the different gear you mentioned.
Quite honestly, in a strictly 2-channel setting with SongTowers, I think a double 240 is perfectly fine. I listen to mine at good levels and the amps keep up no problem. Some guys may want more headroom or power, and so you could move up that chain as you feel appropriate, but I wouldn't discount his best value amp considering how much current it moves with the double die upgrade.
I also think that if your budget allows, I would move past the Parasound preamp into an AVA line to match your amp. I have the Insight EC and its wonderful. If you don't need/want the extra buttons/functions, the SL would be exactly the same sonically. The Parasound 2100 is a great piece of gear in a home theater environment, it has pass through, 2 sub connections, and an mp3 input jack. It also sounds very good and is cheaper than the AVA stuff. I prefer the Insight EC myself, but if MP3 jack was a need or lower cost was a limiting factor then the Parasound would be perfectly fine.
Of the two options you mentioned I would probably go with the AVA Integrated. I love separates, but the Integrated has two main advantages over the Emotiva kit.
1. Its an AVA piece of gear and the build quality, customer service and sonic quality will be 2nd to none in its price range.
2. AVA gear will last a *long* time and selling his gear on the used market is not particularly hard if you ever want to move up.
I looked at Emotiva long and hard before I went with AVA, the low prices and deals were almost too good to pass up. But in the end, I'm extremely happy with the AVA stuff. It really came down the personal service and record of quality. I think overall, Frank wins on both counts, although Emotiva does have its own following, but there are quite a few complaints out there and they still strike me as a relatively big box kind of place.
If it were me, I would skip the $1400 or $1500, get a double 240 and an Insight SL for $2000. It gives you the most upgrade flexibility, quite a bit of power for SongTowers, and AVA quality/longevity. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't swap anything out for 10 years unless you really had an urge to play at ear bleeding levels.
As far as cables, that Blue Jeans recommendation is on par. Best cable out there for the money. Although if you need a bunch of them (I was hooking up a 5.1 system and 2 channel system all at once) it gets expensive. So I also have a bunch of Tartan cable interconnects (same company cheaper, precut line to compete with Monoprice). No complaints whatsoever, great cables whether you buy the lowpriced line or the the top of the line.
www.bluejeanscable.com
www.tartancable.com
As far as "are the differences hearable in amps/preamps/cables". Depends on the person. My dad listens to computer speakers and 128kbps mp3's and he generally couldn't tell you the difference between any of them. He would probably notice a pre-amp switch out. I can notice differences in the preamp, and maybe between a really crappy amp and a good one, but not so much. I just don't believe the amps change the sound a whole lot, given that two are putting out the same power levels. And cables, no difference at all. I make sure to spend a bit to get good quality cables, but I don't go overboard.
And your last point, its not a mistake, but maybe ill-advised. It would probably have a good sound, and many people could be happy with it. I like the synergy of keeping the brands the same though, and Frank makes one of the best.
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I also just got a decent (by my standards) SACD player that will be my main source.
Here is something else to think about: usually a stand alone DAC will give you better sound than the line out of a CD or SACD player. AVA has combined the Insight SL preamplifier with the excellent Vision DAC, here is the announcement:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75324.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75324.0)
Wayne
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Is it a mistake or otherwise ill advised to mix and match by putting an AVA 240 amp with an Emotiva USP-1 Preamp?
And it seems nobody is embracing the AVA Insight Integrated as a good solution??
The only real problem with the Integrated is that its Integrated. If you want to move up you have to sell it and get 2 pieces to replace it. Whereas with a pre-amp and an amp, if you want the newest of either, you sell the one, and replace just it. Amps last a really long time, so if you go out and get a great one, that leaves you free to replace preamps as the technology matures and keep your amp investment.
I think most people are skeptical that those in high end audio will keep an integrated for a long period of time because they will get the itch to move up. So eventually you'd run into that conundrum of buying 2 pieces later when you coulda just got them straight out. My Integrated didn't last a week before I moved up, but it had nothing to do with the quality of the gear.
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I agree with Eric. I would also look used. If you don't mind buying used, you can get one step up. I got an AVA Ultra 550 amp and a T8 small chassis w/phono for under $1700. That would be my choice. The 550 is amazing. I have a regular 240/3 for the center and rears, but that is because I am more concerned about two channel audio. I don't have big surround speakers (just songcenter/songsurrounds), so I didn't try to assemble Ultra 550s all around. If you are only going two channel, you can try to find an Ultimate 70 and the T8 small chassis or the like.
Shawn
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Used is a perfectly good path. I bought the Integrated used, the PS 2100 open box, and my Outlaw 990 processor used from sfox7076 used as well. All were great values and worked fine. Audiogon.com is where I lived all summer. I also bought HT3's used, which FedEx took no time in destroying, but otherwise, the used market is very good in my experience.
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Lots of great advise! Thanks for sharing your experience.
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I recommend the Vision DAC/Preamp combo with the UltraValve. You can't get better sound for 3300.00, IMO. If the UltraValve is not your cup of tea, the Insight Double 240 or Insight Double 260 would be good choices, although I like the T8 preamp better with the solid state amp. Don't overlook the DAC. Garbage in, garbage out.
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Like I said at the beginning.... I am way down at the bottom of the learning curve here. So...
Help me understand the DAC thing. I know that is a digital to analog converter. And I know everything has to be ultimately converted to analog before it can be output to speakers. I think I know that iPods have really bad DACs and AVRs have better DACs and high end stand alone DACs are probably the best (I think). So does that mean that all preamps also have a built in DAC like an AVR? And to do really good, you should get an external DAC, even if you get a nice AVA preamp? OR is this unit you recommended simply an AVA preamp with an even better high end built in DAC? Again, sorry for the first grade questions!
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I just found the link in the above post. I got it now. Thanks!!
Now I think I understand that if you use a regular preamp, you must use analog inputs. So I guess that means your CD/SACD player has to use its own DAC before the analog signal gets sent. If you get this new hybrid preamp, you can send a digital signal from your source and the hybrid preamp converts it, with the advantage being the hybrid preamp has a much better DAC than my SACD player (Marantz SA8003) has. Right??
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only a few models of 2-channel preamps have built-in DACs. If your source is a computer or ipod, a DAC is a must. Some hi-end CD players have good DACs, but you will be fine with any DVD player equipped with digital audio out (toslink or coax) and a DAC either separate or built-in in your (AVA) preamp! Just my 0.02.
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If I just got the Insight SL preamp and the Insight 240/2, and plugged my SACD player into my preamp using the analog in/outs would I be giving up something significant by not having the hybrid premap with the better integrated DAC? AND...when I plug my iPod into the USB plug on my SACD player, is the SACD player's DAC working or is it the iPod DAC? Thanks again. This is really helpful to me!!
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I'm pretty sure the Marantz has a good DAC in it so I think you will be OK
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When the AVA web sight says the 240/2 delivers 125W/ch, does that mean into an 8ohm load? So if your speakers are 4ohm, do you double that to understand the power rating?
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Regarding your iPod, if you use a cable with a 3.5 mm jack on one end and RCAs on the other end, you are using the iPods built-in DAC. The iPod's DAC isn't very good. If you are taking the digital output of your iPod and connecting to a digital input on your SACD, then you are using the SACD's built-in DAC. Notwithstanding the DAC, a lot of your sound quality depends on the tracks on your iPod. If you are playing AAC files, the sound quality isn't going to be very good.
If you are feeding your SACD player's digital input, then the quality of the analog output depends on the SACD's player's DAC and analog output stage. There are some SACD players and CD players with good DAC's and analog output stages, but their analog output is often inferior to a standalone DAC.
You need a good source, i.e.; the analog output that will go into the preamp's input, then you need a good preamp to amplify the signals, and then you need a good amp that will amplify the preamp's output to a level that operates the speakers. The sound comes from source, then into the preamp, then the amp, and lastly through the speakers. Poor sound at the beginning will merely be amplified through the speakers and will sound poor. Good sound from the source, amplified correctly, will sound good through good speakers in a room with good acoustics. Great sound is a little more complicated but follows the same concept.
To answer your question, if the DAC in your SACD/CD player isn't very good, you will be giving up a lot by not having a better DAC. However, every upgraded component should improve the sound quality. The crummy analog output of an iPod (yikes) will probably sound better through a better system, but you aren't going to get the sound quality that you would with a better source.
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When the AVA web sight says the 240/2 delivers 125W/ch, does that mean into an 8ohm load? So if your speakers are 4ohm, do you double that to understand the power rating?
I don't know if the output is exactly double, but the amp produces more power into a 4 ohm load. I wouldn't worry too much about the specs, but if you are using 4 ohm speakers, I think you wouldn't be foolhardy paying the minimal extra amount for the double-die option.
AVA is sound-happy, not spec-happy.
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When the AVA web sight says the 240/2 delivers 125W/ch, does that mean into an 8ohm load? So if your speakers are 4ohm, do you double that to understand the power rating?
yes, it is @8 Ohm, but I am not sure if you just double it for 4 Ohm, it may depend on the topology of the amp. Jim, Dennis and/or Frank would know for sure.
If I just got the Insight SL preamp and the Insight 240/2, and plugged my SACD player into my preamp using the analog in/outs would I be giving up something significant by not having the hybrid premap with the better integrated DAC? AND...when I plug my iPod into the USB plug on my SACD player, is the SACD player's DAC working or is it the iPod DAC? Thanks again. This is really helpful to me!!
The dac in SACD is probably good for now, you can get a separate unit later. I guess it is going to be a digital signal thru a USB port, meaning your player's DAC is involved! Now, your ipod will send AAC (or MP3) compressed files, and that is not as good as a CD signal.
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I should have checked the pipe's replies first... did not mean to be redundant :lol:
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OR is this unit you recommended simply an AVA preamp with an even better high end built in DAC?
No, this unit is not better because of the built-in DAC, just less expensive. I don't know your budget. I you want to do it up really nice, you could get an AVA Vision DAC, an AVA AvaStar preamp with a built-in phase inverter bridge, and two AVA Ultra Double 550 amps, running in mono, each producing about 1000 watts of sweet, AVA muscle.
Some might think that is overkill. :wink:
Don't get caught up comparing the specs of different electronic components. The specs tell you NOTHING (not yelling here) about the quality or sound. While a person often gets what they pay for, with AVA and Salk, you will get a lot more than you pay for.
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Bigload, I have a Marantz CD5001, and the analog output is crap compared to my DACs' analog outputs, but I only paid 300.00 for the thing. Maybe you have a high end SACD player.
Why are you called Bigload, if you don't mind me asking?
BTW, anyone interest in a minty Marantz CD5001? :D
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I just read the OP so if I missed some stuff, I apologize.
If you don't mind going without a remote, I recommend a Mapletree Audio preamp.
As for the 8Ohm power into 4 ohms, that is dependent on the power amp. A good power amplifier should have close to twice the wattage from an 8 ohm load into 4 ohms.
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Bigload, I have a Marantz CD5001, and the analog output is crap compared to my DACs' analog outputs, but I only paid 300.00 for the thing. Maybe you have a high end SACD player.
Why are you called Bigload, if you don't mind me asking?
BTW, anyone interest in a minty Marantz CD5001? :D
ummm... just made it up. and.... I am not exactly a small guy either.
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No, this unit is not better because of the built-in DAC, just less expensive. I don't know your budget. I you want to do it up really nice, you could get an AVA Vision DAC, an AVA AvaStar preamp with a built-in phase inverter bridge, and two AVA Ultra Double 550 amps, running in mono, each producing about 1000 watts of sweet, AVA muscle.
Some might think that is overkill. :wink:
Don't get caught up comparing the specs of different electronic components. The specs tell you NOTHING (not yelling here) about the quality or sound. While a person often gets what they pay for, with AVA and Salk, you will get a lot more than you pay for.
Well, I guess my budget keeps growing the better stuff sounds. Heck I started out thinking about a $1400 AVA integrated unit, or some other less expensive stuff. Now I am thinking about some really sweet sounding stuff you guys have suggested that gets me up around $3500.
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Well, I guess my budget keeps growing the better stuff sounds. Heck I started out thinking about a $1400 AVA integrated unit, or some other less expensive stuff. Now I am thinking about some really sweet sounding stuff you guys have suggested that gets me up around $3500.
Do you have a two-channel system or an integrated HT system?
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Do you have a two-channel system or an integrated HT system?
2 channel
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OK, so you don't have a bunch of other stuff to worry about.
The least expensive NIB "complete system" from AVA, would be the Vision DAC/Preamp Combo with an Insight 240. If you got the double-die option, you would be under 3000.00 with shipping. The UltraValve will produce a different sound, better sound, IMO, especially with a solid state preamp, and you would still be under 3400.00 with shipping. A remote volume control, which I highly recommend, costs 299.00 (another manufacturer charges 1000.00 for what appears to be a similar control.) Either of these two "systems" would provide you with a hi-rez DAC installed in an excellent preamp, and a powerful solid state or a sweet, musical tube amp. You won't notice much output power/loudness-type performance difference between the 120 watt solid state amp and the 30 watt tube amp, in my experience with the Ultimate 70 and the Insight 440. The Ultimate 70 has great low end and the mid-range is better than the Insight 440, IMO. The Ultimate 70, the UltraValve's predecessor, is more detailed than the Insight 440, too. Additionally, tubes amps look cool, you can get into tube rolling, and your friends will constantly argue with you about your "old" technology until they take a listen. :lol:
Your Marantz SACD player will make a nice CD transport for the DAC, but you can also use the DAC in a hi-rez and/or red book music server-type system, using a SB or computer.
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I'm pretty sure the Marantz has a good DAC in it so I think you will be OK
I searched enough to find the Marantz SA8003 has a Cirrus CS4398 DAC. I then googled the DAC itself and read some on that. Some smart sounding guys say it is good, but not as good as some and may be preferred in solid state set ups. I have no idea if that is all good or bad. I am betting it is good enough for me!
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This has been an interesting day for me. I have learned a tremendous amount and received some great advice from some very helpful people here. I really appreciate it! Now I just need to consider the options (much easier now that they are more understandable) and make a decision.
Thanks.
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The main question is how does it sound to you. I have a Marantz SA15S1 and to me it is a winner. I would have to spend alot more to find a better player. If you like the sound that is what matters. You can get opinions but that doesn't mean your going to like any of the equiptment when you get it. I went through tons of gear in the past 2 years to get where I am now and I am sure everyone else has also. People can only advise you based on what they have lisened to. Hell you bought Songtowers sight unseen like myself and others and look at the results.
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The SA8003 is purported to be a good player. In another league from my CD5001 but perhaps not in the same league as the SA15S1.
The DAC chip that is installed in a player or outboard DAC is only as good as the implementation. There are the output stages, power supplies, and a whole bunch of other things that I do not know much about. However, just because two components use the same DAC chip doesn't guarantee that their performance, i.e., sound, will be comparable. Two amps both using the same tubes might sound a lot different.
I agree that what matters is what you think of the sound. My motivation is merely to help you avoid, if possible, the costly mistakes that I, and others, have made. I bought my Salk speakers sound unheard, but I relied on the trusted opinions of others. I wish that I had trusted opinions before I bought a couple of CD players and a few pairs of speakers, prior to owning the Salks.
Evan1 knows his stuff, BTW. He is a good trusted opinion.
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I should mention that The Absolute Sound reported that the combination of Salk Songtowers driven by the AVA Ultravalve tube amplifer, and an AVA preamp and DAC, the "best bargain at the Rocky Mountain AudioFest" and other reviewers gave our combined show room high marks too.
You probably already know the Jim Salk uses AVA equipment in his own sound lab. Dennis Murphy, the crossover designer, uses an AVA Insight preamp and amplifier too.
There is lots of other great equipment out there, but with AVA, when you call us, I will usually answer the phone myself just because I love to.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Wow, the other guys on audio circle are right: we're a bunch of AVA fanboys. :)
I will take a different approach and say to the OP: only use our recommendations as just that; do not buy without at least auditioning some gear first. You may hate what we like; you just never know. Audition first, then purchase based on your opinion, not ours. You might be a tube guy, soild state guy, vinyl guy or digital guy...only one way to find out.
With that said, I am sure you'll love the AVA stuff (I'd own an AVA amp if I could afford it), but try to at least score an audition first. Better safe than sorry.
Some very well respected brands are:
AVA
Cary
Modwright
McCormack
Musical Fidelity
Rotel
Bryston
Ayre
Rogue Audio
Parasound
Proceed
Arcam
ATI
The list goes on and on. Buy based on sound and features.
Welcome to the Salk family!!!
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Odyssey
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Hi,
What is your budget?
I saw a belles 150a amplifier for $500US recently for sale on audiocircle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77006.0
If you live in the US there are lots of good quality secondhand gear to consider and whilst I haven't heard a pair of songtowers I do have ht2's and Jim and Dennis make a really high quality speaker.
If you purchase secondhand you won't lose too much money if you decide to sell the component and buy something more expensive. There are also some really cheap dacs to consider that will get you started.
Regards
Rod
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Wow, the other guys on audio circle are right: we're a bunch of AVA fanboys. :)
That's those guys on the AVA Circle. :lol:
Frank never disappoints. He is always making his products better. Many of the upgrades are free or user-installable for the cost of the parts. :thumb: When Frank offers upgrades that are free or user-installable, he is absorbing his R&D costs for the benefit of his customers. Frank sells his Insight+ preamp for 899.00 and his UltraValve for 1699.00, while some other manufacturer is selling a mass-produced 499.00 Blu-ray player with their front panel and rear-panel labeling for 3500.00. When I was a teenager building a modified Hafler DH-100 kit, based upon some of Frank's ideas, Frank was already a legend in audio. Many years ago, my father was the service manager of HiFi Associates, South Florida's McIntosh dealer. When I told my father, a couple of years ago, that I spoke to Frank Van Alstine on the telephone earlier in the day, my father replied, "The Frank Van Alstine?". Frank's reputation is built foremost on quality sound and innovation, and he also has an excellent reputation for solid construction and good value. I have a 25 year old AVA Omega 50 that will outlive me, I suspect. Frank's goal isn't to sell the most electronics, Frank's goal is to sell the best electronics. I am very happy to be an AVA fan.
I am not saying that there aren't other quality electronic components in the marketplace, and I wouldn't say that Jim is the only manufacturer of quality speakers. I really liked the Vandy 7 speakers that I heard @ RMAF. They were 41,000.00 more expensive than my HT2-TL, but they were excellent, I thought. However, can anyone match the sound and construction quality of Jim's speakers for 2X the price or 3X the price? I heard 35,000.00 plus speakers @ RMAF that paled in comparison with Jim's speakers (in a non-ideal hotel room that was exactly the same size, construction, etc., as Frank and Jim's non-ideal hotel room). Are there any manufacturers that exceed Frank or Jim's customer service? Jim was out in the snow cutting MDF on a table saw to finish a pair of speakers. Know anyone else with this commitment to his customers? Great sound, great prices, great builders.
(I am preaching to the choir when I respond to Nuance's posts.)
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Wow, the other guys on audio circle are right: we're a bunch of AVA fanboys. :)
I will take a different approach and say to the OP: only use our recommendations as just that; do not buy without at least auditioning some gear first. You may hate what we like; you just never know. Audition first, then purchase based on your opinion, not ours. You might be a tube guy, soild state guy, vinyl guy or digital guy...only one way to find out.
With that said, I am sure you'll love the AVA stuff (I'd own an AVA amp if I could afford it), but try to at least score an audition first. Better safe than sorry.
Some very well respected brands are:
AVA
Cary
Modwright
McCormack
Musical Fidelity
Rotel
Bryston
Ayre
Rogue Audio
Parasound
Proceed
Arcam
ATI
The list goes on and on. Buy based on sound and features.
Welcome to the Salk family!!!
I've been watching this thread for a level headed person to respond. FINALLY NUANCE! I was afraid to post with all these AVA guys around. :roll: :P :P
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You can throw outlaw in there as well. It's rebadged ATI stuff at less cost. I would also throw cambridge into the mix as I like their stuff as well. Do I like AVA stuff? Yes, but not only their stuff.
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Just see we are clear, I was not knocking AVA in any way. Like I said, "WE are fanboys." I haven't even heard the stuff and I already like it. :)
Seriously though, my post was intended to encourage the OP to audition the things that are available to him, if nothing else to determine if he wants to go tube or SS or vinyl or digital. The possibilities are numerous. So if you can, listen first. I am sure there are AVA owners somewhere near, and probably dozens of owners of the other brands I mentioned above.
Like sfox said, you don't only have to like one brand. Try them all, then chose the one you like best. I don't doubt you'll like AVA, but always be smart when making a purchase of this magnitude. You just never know.
pipe,
I am definitely one of the "choir members" you were "preaching" to. All that you said "goes without saying" as far as I am concerned. And I think you know MY answers to your questions, just as I know yours; but not everyone will answer the same way as us, and we need to be open to that.
Haha, I think what I just said "goes without saying" as well. Oh well. :lol:
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I was afraid to post with all these AVA guys around. :roll: :P :P
Hahaha!
Terry, you've got the electronics, for sure.
I wouldn't try to suggest that AVA gear is the only viable option, but AVA is a sure thing for anyone upgrading their electronics. I can recommend AVA in the same way that I can recommend Salk speakers. Not everyone will like AVA, and not everyone likes Salk, but Frank has a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, and when he re-sells a unit that was returned, he lists the unit as a customer return, and those units are few and far between.
In-home audition with a variety of equipment is the only way to really know.
Just to show that I am a reasonable person and not inflexible in my thinking, I will throw Lexicon into the hat. Never mind, they don't make any two-channel stuff anymore. Oh well, I tried. :lol:
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To be sure. I love my AVA gear, and I love my parasound and outlaw gear as well. Its all just about what you hear and the price point you want to buy at. AVA is the top of the line for me, I simply won't spend 5k per amp to experience those botique makers, because it won't buy my ears any more satisfaction than what I already have at 1k per amp. But thats not to say the other gear isn't good, but is it proportionally good to its cost (whether higher or lower).
If the OP found a used PS2100 and a couple Outlaw Mono blocks, I'm sure he'd be blown away. And it'd be fairly cheap to put together. Its up to him, and I second oneinthepipe, its hard to not recommend AVA as a total buying experience, from research to tunes in the ear.
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Bigload...
I just ordered my first set of Salk speakers which are my first set of non mass produced speakers as well.
Good....Jim Salk builds some very good speakers...they look good....they sound excellent... :thumb:
I also just got a decent (by my standards) SACD player that will be my main source.
Always helpful to have a good source...which one ?
So I am sure not coming in here knowing too much about audio as you will see.
You have to start someplace....the Salk Circle can be very helpful... :wink:
I now want to get a decent amp and preamp.
Great....have you heard any ?
You'll find many different opinions...but listening will tell you what works best....and what you prefer.
Since you've not received your speakers yet....do you have any equipment now ?
I don't know where your located, but post your area, and see if any fellow AC members might offer you an audition of their systems....it will give you a few ideas...good luck. :beer:
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Yes, I have some 2 channel equipment now. But it is a little on the cheapo side. As you can see, I am working hard to get my act together.
I have decided to call AVA on Monday and get some things ordered. Unless I change my mind tomorrow, I plan to order the 240/2 amp and the Vision DAC/Preamp Combination unit with remote volume. I am only getting the DAC combo unit so I can play my iPod Apple Lossless files via the digital output on my Wadia 170i. The Wadia and the Marantz SA8003 are my primary sources. The Salk SongTower QWT's will be my speakers as soon as Mr. Salk makes them. That left me needing the amp, preamp and DAC. No I have not heard any better quality stuff than you can hear at Best Buy. I am doing this all on good faith that Salk and AVA won't disappoint, but I am not at all worried about being disappointed. I figure if Jim Salk uses them in his home, they are plenty good for me and must be an excellent match for his speakers. I live in a rural area with no major cities close by so auditioning is a problem.
Thanks again.
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Tell Frank if you need more than one digital coax input. If you use the SA8003 as a CDP, you might want to use the DAC's analog output rather than the SA8003, and then you will need inputs for the SA8003's digital output and the Wadia's digital output. If Frank can't provide multiple inputs in that chassis, the Inday switcher works very well.
Congratulations. You will have a very nice system.
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Hahaha!
Terry, you've got the electronics, for sure.
I wouldn't try to suggest that AVA gear is the only viable option, but AVA is a sure thing for anyone upgrading their electronics. I can recommend AVA in the same way that I can recommend Salk speakers. Not everyone will like AVA, and not everyone likes Salk, but Frank has a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, and when he re-sells a unit that was returned, he lists the unit as a customer return, and those units are few and far between.
In-home audition with a variety of equipment is the only way to really know.
Just to show that I am a reasonable person and not inflexible in my thinking, I will throw Lexicon into the hat. Never mind, they don't make any two-channel stuff anymore. Oh well, I tried. :lol:
Ha! There's no need to defend yourself. I just had to hassle you a bit with the AVA gear recommendations. If AVA has the features you need, I'm certain it is a fantastic recommendation as I've seen mostly praise from everyone.
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1. AVA- Preamp- Parasound- A23.
This would be a great combo IMO. I own the A21 and drove a pair of ST's with a wonderful result. I have heard an all solid state AVA system and love the gear. If you are asking what I would purchase it would be an AVA tube preamp and the A23.
How much should I spend to get decent interconnects?
IMO you should spend all of you budget on gear then save for interconnects. Blue Jean Cable or Monoprice IC's.
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Yes, I have some 2 channel equipment now. But it is a little on the cheapo side. As you can see, I am working hard to get my act together.
I have decided to call AVA on Monday and get some things ordered. Unless I change my mind tomorrow, I plan to order the 240/2 amp and the Vision DAC/Preamp Combination unit with remote volume. I am only getting the DAC combo unit so I can play my iPod Apple Lossless files via the digital output on my Wadia 170i. The Wadia and the Marantz SA8003 are my primary sources. The Salk SongTower QWT's will be my speakers as soon as Mr. Salk makes them. That left me needing the amp, preamp and DAC. No I have not heard any better quality stuff than you can hear at Best Buy. I am doing this all on good faith that Salk and AVA won't disappoint, but I am not at all worried about being disappointed. I figure if Jim Salk uses them in his home, they are plenty good for me and must be an excellent match for his speakers. I live in a rural area with no major cities close by so auditioning is a problem.
Thanks again.
Wow, nice gear. I'm sure it won't disappoint. I've only had my AVA stuff about 6-7 months now, but I keep wavering on upgrading my DAC from the Insight to the Vision. I'm sure you'll be impressed. I only listened to a Wyred4Sound amps before going with AVA (Dennis had one in his home), but I had never heard the DAC or Pre and both were phenomenal pieces.
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I forgot to mention I'm also considering that Wadia 170i for my iPod as well. Do you like it much? Right now, I connect the iPod to the mp3 jack on my Parasound attached to my home theater, and it sounds pretty good considering how bad the iPod DAC is. I wanted to get the dock so I can use my AVA DAC with my 2 channel setup for supreme quality sounding tunes in my home.
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I forgot to mention I'm also considering that Wadia 170i for my iPod as well. Do you like it much? Right now, I connect the iPod to the mp3 jack on my Parasound attached to my home theater, and it sounds pretty good considering how bad the iPod DAC is. I wanted to get the dock so I can use my AVA DAC with my 2 channel setup for supreme quality sounding tunes in my home.
I think the Wadia was a good improvement. I also think the iPod DAC was only intened for ear buds. The trick for me was to first make sure files are at least in Apple lossless. Lossy formats sound like poo to me regardless of anything else. Then run a good digital coax to something with a better DAC. Anything is better than the iDAC. Result was much better for me. I am anxious to hear how it sounds with a good AVA DAC and good gear. I am not sure how the Parasound works, but I had tried to do a similar hook up on my Marantz SACD player...iPod USB to USB port on front of SACD player. I did some googling to finally find out this still did not go through the Marantz's DAC. The Marantz was doing some kind of limited sonic improvements on the analog signal?? I think?? But it was not getting a digital signal from the USB port. Again, I like the Wadia. I read at one time that Wadia was the only product licensed by Apple to export a digital signal from an iPod. I have no idea if that is true, but I do remember reading it someplace.
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Yes I've read that too. It seems like a neat device and I'm sure that the AVA dac will do just fine rendering your files. I've been really pleased with mine hooked up to a Squeezebox.
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I like using an airport extreme and my computer for picking songs. Takes a lot less time than the Ipod to find and pick songs.
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I like using an airport extreme and my computer for picking songs. Takes a lot less time than the Ipod to find and pick songs.
+1
I really enjoy having everything controlled either from my iPhone (Remote app), or from the laptop I happen to have open. All of this is pulled from a PC on another floor of my house running iTunes 24/7. The only negative is that you have to get your network working correctly, but even in my house's mixed environment, it wasn't much of an issue.
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Well, I did it. Called Frank and ordered the Insight 240 and the Vision DAC Preamp combo with remote volume. It should get here about the same time my SongTowers are due. Can't wait. Thanks.
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Well, I did it. Called Frank and ordered the Insight 240 and the Vision DAC Preamp combo with remote volume. It should get here about the same time my SongTowers are due. Can't wait. Thanks.
Very cool! Please let us know what you think of the AVA stuff with your STs. I'm currently debating between what you just bought and Vision Dac -> T8+ pre -> Insight 240.
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Great let us know when you get the stuff so we can all come over and play
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Congrats on the new system. While I think you should have listened to at least some of the stuff before you purchased, I still think you'll have a rockin' system! Just my opinion. :)
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Nuance -
Shush! We're trying to create a fan boy here. :wink:
In my opinion, for someone new to high end audio, almost anything will sound "good", from a Parasound kit to an Outlaw kit to AVA, Bryston or whoever (and I really wouldn't have much a problem recommending any of them). And there's nothing wrong with any of those systems. I personally recommend AVA because he has good stuff, and he's probly the cheapest of the non big box type makes. If you go a step lower than him you are probably into Parasound territory (stepping down from a $900 pre to a $600 or $700 pre), and I love mine but its a chain brand like most other stuff.
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Congratulations on the new system, Bigload.
You won't be disappointed.
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Auditioning several different equipment types would have been something I would have really enjoyed doing. I am sure it would have been a real learning experience. But with my work schedule and the long distance to a major city, it would have been difficult and would have taken a lot of time. Instead, I am relying on all of the experience and auditioning you guys have done. Plus... I like the fact that Frank uses Jim's speakers and Jim uses Frank's electronics. All of that made a compelling proposition. Will let you know how it all works when it gets here. But like floresjc says, I am sure I will be blown away considering the hodge podge of common stuff I have been listening to.
Also... I had a guy wonder up to me today that I work with. Out of no place, he said do you know anything about speakers and stereo? I said why. He said Oh, I was wanting to get a set of really good speakers and I heard you were getting into that. So... I gave him the tweeter, mid range, cross over, SACD, DAC, mosfet, double die, tube rolling pitch for Salk and AVA! It was quite funny since I was working hard just last weekend to learn as much as I could from you guys about all of this stuff. Fortunately, he did not ask me many questions! Despite my beginner ramblings, I did focus him on Salk and AVA as a good place to start looking.
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Wow, finally read the whole thread...
Its official, oneinthepipe is a bigger fanboy of AVA than I am for Salk. :D :lol:
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If you go a step lower than him you are probably into Parasound territory (stepping down from a $900 pre to a $600 or $700 pre), and I love mine but its a chain brand like most other stuff.
floresjc,
You obviously haven't heard Parasound's Halo series preamp or amp. If I read your post, it sounds like you are suggesting Parasound is a step lower that AVA. That is not true, I think we need to be careful about our recommendations. I believe I understand you to be speaking of the Parasound 2100. If your definition of "step lower" is simply monetary, then I agree.
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Wow, finally read the whole thread...
Its official, oneinthepipe is a bigger fanboy of AVA than I am for Salk. :D :lol:
Do I get a badge or trophy or something?
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Do I get a badge or trophy or something?
LOL! I would hope so! :)
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Ok you two. We're all pals here.
I have an allegiance to Parasound. However I try not to bring that in while I am recommending gear. We must pay attention to the budget of a member looking for advice, amongst other things. Some of us have a connection with a mfg. I have met the President of Parasound, sat in his office and chatted. He let me borrow a DAC before I purchased my latest. So I have a connection that goes beyond the love of the way my amp performs. Not to mention all of the other Parasound gear I have auditioned. Many of us know how AVA gear mates with Salk speakers. Many of know how Parasound mates with speakers. We speak to our experience, look, we are posting our findings on a public forum for all to read, which in my mind means we are passionate of what we write.
Remember it's just a hobby.
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OgOgilby has a Para A-21, and the amp drives his HT2-TL with power and finesse. I like OgOg's amp (I like his entire system), but even if I were replacing my amps with amps from another manufacturer, the A-21 would out of my price range.
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LOL! I would hope so! :)
I called the trophy shop.
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I called the trophy shop.
Lmao! What will the engraving say? Do I get one for being the number 1 Salk fanboy? :lol:
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I use Parasound pre-amp and amp with my HT2-TLs
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I use Parasound pre-amp and amp with my HT2-TLs
Give us the meat! Which preamp and amp?
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Halo P7 and A 51
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Henry,
For what its worth, the Parasound A21 is less expensive than the AVA Fet Valve 550Ex. The Halo A21 is Parasound's most expensive 2-channel amp, just as the Fet Valve 550Ex appears to be Franks most expensive amp. Parasound is not as expensive as you think. My goal is to own one or the other some day. Then my system will be complete. But like you, I don't see that happening; too expensive at full MSRP for me.
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but even if I were replacing my amps with amps from another manufacturer, the A-21 would out of my price range.
Pipe,
All you'd have to do is sell some of your monitors (speakers) to make up the difference. Your "other gear" list is impressive.
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Halo P7 and A 51
:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: The Parasound's definitely win the sexiness award. You've got a great system, Vulcan. I am jealous! :)
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Halo P7 and A 51
Nice!
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For what its worth, the Parasound A21 is less expensive than the AVA Fet Valve 550Ex.
I don't have an Ultra Fet Valve 550EX, just an Insight 440 solid state amp and not even a 440H or Double 440. The 550 is a hybrid amplifier and in another league than a strictly solid state amp.
Pipe,
All you'd have to do is sell some of your monitors (speakers) to make up the difference. Your "other gear" list is impressive.
The Spendor S3/5 in burl walnut should bring a few bucks. :thumb: The KEF Reference Series 101 are under-recognized and wouldn't likely bring enough money to be worth selling. :( However, maybe a new UltraValve or a Ultra Fet Valve 550EX is in my future.
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K Shep -
I didn't mean anything derogatory towards Parasound. I'm a lucky owner myself :)
I simply meant step down in terms of price. I got my PS 2100 for 400 bucks shipped from Audio Advisor on an open box special (they basically took a photo of it). Its an amazing piece of gear, and something I would consider an absolute must have for anyone wanting two channel and home theater options in the same system.
But the OP isn't in that situation. He's talking straight 2-channel systems, and as my Salk/AVA/Parasound/Squeezebox system review says, I prefer the AVA preamp to the Parasound. Although if I only had 700 bucks to spend, I'd be more than happy with the Parasound. I wouldn't label the difference between the two as night and day, but there is a noticeable difference in performance to me, and I find it worth recommending.
I'm actually kind of upset with my Parasound 2100. Its broke. Whenever I use the mp3 jack, it only plays out the right speaker, somehow the left channel died. But using pass through, it will still allow the left channel to play. So I have to send it in for repairs. :(
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The 550 is a hybrid amplifier and in another league than a strictly solid state amp.
Its better than any solid state amp out there, or better than Frank's solid state amps? I've never heard it, so please clarify.
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I don't have an Ultra Fet Valve 550EX, just an Insight 440 solid state amp and not even a 440H or Double 440. The 550 is a hybrid amplifier and in another league than a strictly solid state amp.
Pretty strong statement...
Can't say I agree with it based on my listening and auditioning on Salk HT3's. I found pure solid state, hybrid, and tube amps that floated my boat more than the AVA 550EX.
I will put on my anti-flame suit now.
George
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I didn't mean anything derogatory towards Parasound. I'm a lucky owner myself
floresjc,
Thank you for the clarification.
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No flame suit necessary, Zybar, as I felt the same thing about that comment. I assume he meant Frank's SS amps, as claiming Frank's Hybrid amp is better than all SS amps doesn't sound like something Henry would say. We'll let him elaborate, though.
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Pretty strong statement...
Can't say I agree with it based on my listening and auditioning on Salk HT3's. I found pure solid state, hybrid, and tube amps that floated my boat more than the AVA 550EX.
I will put on my anti-flame suit now.
George
Hahaha.
My fingers sometimes type faster than my words come out. I believe that this is the result of being required to attend summer school every year during high school because my grades weren't very good. I took typing with my homeroom teacher every summer, undoubtedly to his dismay.
I meant that the Fet Valve Ultra is better than Frank's solid state amps. I didn't mean that the Fet Valve Ultra is better than every solid state amp. I haven't heard every solid state amp, and even if I had, I don't have the listening capabilities to make that determination, regardless of the extraordinary variables. Nonetheless, the AVA Ultimate 70, a tube amp, floats my boat more than the AVA Insight 440 in my system in my room.
Frank describes AVA equipment as "True state-of-the-art high-fidelity at prices you can afford." If "true" is a synonym of "honest", then AVA could also be described as honest hi-fi at affordable prices. The SongTower and the SongBird also bring hi-fi to listeners at affordable prices, and the SongTower has brought hi-fi to some listeners who, I suspect, might have been priced out of hi-fi if the SongTowers weren't available. Jim doesn't state that the Song-series speakers are the best speaker in the world. (He'll reserve that designation, I believe, for the HT4.) I suggest that listeners consider AVA gear without any reservation. Frank purposely does not build "money no object" electronic components, and although I am not suggesting AVA gear to "money no object" buyers, I might if I knew any. Frank's vision, for 35+ years, has been to provide affordable, reliable, upgradeable, individually-built, and innovative products to serious music lovers.
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We'll let him elaborate, though.
How did you know that I would elaborate? :D Don't answer that. I am very sensitive to the truth. :lol:
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^ Haha. In this case the truth won't hurt, as I simply knew you'd want to clear up the misunderstanding.
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OgOgilby has a Para A-21, and the amp drives his HT2-TL with power and finesse. I like OgOg's amp (I like his entire system), but even if I were replacing my amps with amps from another manufacturer, the A-21 would out of my price range.
Thanks :oops:
The A-21 wasn't purchased new, or it would have been out of my price range also. I got it for the price of the AVA Insight 440. Three of AVA's amps (440H, Ultra 350, Ultra 550) would have cost more than the Halo did if I purchased them new, so it wasn't really an apples to apples price comparison.
Well, I did it. Called Frank and ordered the Insight 240 and the Vision DAC Preamp combo with remote volume. It should get here about the same time my SongTowers are due. Can't wait. Thanks.
Bigload, I think you will be very happy with your decision to mate your Salks with AVA gear. It's a good safe choice since you weren't able to audition alternative gear.
You mentioned being a long distance from a major city - where are you located?