200% mark-up on speakers ????

2bigears · « **on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:00 am »

this modern or real world stuff kills me.i know people gotta eat and R-D is costly,but in a 20,000.00 dollar speaker,parts come to 3 or 400 bucks +- and the rest is box build

.i really can't sleep at night no more with this bounching of the insides of my head,heating up that last brain cell like a microwave device.i an going to flip-flop into the DIY world of speakers.a carpenter at trade,not working in the trade for some years,downgraded to a bad handyman

let the sawdust fly off that MDF.think my first build will be the Venue OB with GR Danny.

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:13 am »

200% markup would be cheap.

Good luck with speaker building. Just remember tolerances are a bit more critical than in carpentry. And wear a dust mask, MDF will kill ya.

zybar · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:23 am »

Good luck Pat.

Just remember, if it was easy, a lot more people would be DIY.

BTW, what $20k speaker do you think there is only $300-400 in parts? What does the cabinet look like and what is it made of?

A lot of cost can absolutely go into the cabinet.

For example, if you take Danny's new OB design and ask somebody to build you some nice cabinets, I bet it would cost $1500-2000.

George

2bigears · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:37 am »

i gotta,gotta,gotta hear that bass

we love our bass hear in Canada.Danny also mentioned that top driver is super fast.what is nice is that the cost is the tax on a mid pair on speakers these days.

i really won't worry too much for the dust as i am carrying a couple pounds of fine in'dust'rial waste from my wood-butcher days.it's all bout' fun and music....

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 12:43 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 16 Apr 2009, 12:13 am

200% markup would be cheap.

Good luck with speaker building. Just remember tolerances are a bit more critical than in carpentry. And wear a dust mask, MDF will kill ya.

I agree with Josh. 200% markup is like just giving it away. Its only worth it perhaps if the loudspeaker cost $10K to build, and even then, you would think that the fella had a whole team help him design and build the speaker so you are still giving it away after paying off your staff.

I do DIY for only one reason. Its f&^*(in FUN.

Anand.

planet10 · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:54 am »

Quote from: 2bigears on 16 Apr 2009, 12:00 am

i an going to flip-flop into the DIY world of speakers.a carpenter at trade....let the sawdust fly off that MDF

diy is growing fast. Lots of support. 1st lesson. MDF is a bad material to make speakers out of.

dave

RJR · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 02:03 am »

Someone once said: "The best way to make a million dollars in the loudspeaker inductry is to start with 10 million."

Bob

Mariusz · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 02:27 am »

Materials to build my speakers cost total at almost 2K.
That includes:
*drivers
*wiring
*hardware
*wood
*finishes
*leather

I am not even sweating the shop cost and delivery expenses.

Considering the package deal discount - you almost end up paying my material cost.
I have been banging my head against the wall long and hard to come up with the best possible price.

Some manufacturers hike they prices in respond to positive review(s) and excessive advertisement tactics.
Sure there are other expenses involved in 50K speakers - it is called marketing.

If I wanted to make real money, I can build simple $1500 box speaker with $200 in parts & another $200 in veneer, Ply/MDF. And it would still turn heads.

Then submit it for review with shipment paid one way and check for 6 month advertisement. Wait for review - add shinny cones, better finish and charge you double. Sounds good?

If anyone is interested in building my speakers and believes it is overpriced, please PM and I will provide you with complete list of materials and basic build technique to accomplish similar effect.

( what you think your hour is worth X 150 )

Mariusz

WerTicus · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 02:43 am »

For 10k in parts you can get speakers that run with the quarter million dollar type league.

2bigears · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 03:41 am »

plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ???? WT,how would you spend 10k in parts,that's alota high quality parts....you look at some 30,000.00 dollar speakers like the 20T's or 70,000.00 VSA 9's,heavy boxes that cost big -big bucks to make and do look good.i bet the parts cost would really suprise most....

i know these guys cater to the rich crowd,but ya gotta shake your head..i guess there are a lot of people in the food chain you have to feed. DIY should be fun.....

Watson · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 03:45 am »

Quote from: 2bigears on 16 Apr 2009, 03:41 am

plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ????

MDF is the hot ticket material. People who argue against it are in the minority. You can also use baltic birch void-free ply (and this may be better for subwoofers), but it's expensive. Regular ply has voids and is strongly not recommended. Actual wood is the worst choice.

whubbard · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 04:03 am »

DIY audio is great!
I always inhale the formaldehyde from the MDF (not all MDF is made with it anymore...) followed with the toxins I breath in with using lead solder...

...But in the end, it's worth it.

-West

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: 2bigears on 16 Apr 2009, 03:41 am

plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ???? WT,how would you spend 10k in parts,that's alota high quality parts....you look at some 30,000.00 dollar speakers like the 20T's or 70,000.00 VSA 9's,heavy boxes that cost big -big bucks to make and do look good.i bet the parts cost would really suprise most.... i know these guys cater to the rich crowd,but ya gotta shake your head..i guess there are a lot of people in the food chain you have to feed. DIY should be fun.....

Looking to outliers in the uber expensive category isn't a good example of how to think of things IMHO. Saving money shouldn't really be the prime motivator either. Anyone who has experience in the DIY world will tell you ultimately you don't save a great deal, especially if you value your time otherwise. It has to be a hobby unto its own, like others mentioned.

Cost only becomes the benefitter when you look to all the speakers you would have otherwise purchased in your life versus all the projects you can build. Then if you amortize the tool costs and materials it starts to look attractive from a purely cost perspective.

The real reason why many DIY'ers do what they do is the love of it, the learning experience, the chance to build to suit their unique tastes (customization) and even the chance to make less compromises for their set of criterion and order of importance.

The DIY community with the help of great forums really made the hobby like an open-source project with sharing and digestion of all the latest science, research, materials, etc. To that end, sometimes the DIY community is even pushing the envelope faster than the commercial realm. But, in hone your skills to keep up with this frontier takes experience, that comes with time, not your first project.

The biggest stumbling block is when a first timer tries to tackle too difficult or grandiose a project despite encouragement to start small. When things become more challenging than they expect they get discouraged and give up on DIY. Take the advice of those before you and start with a well established kits or project that is well documented and learn what you can from it. There are more subtle things than you first realize. This will gain you some confidence to step it up the next time.

I did the same with speakers and tube projects and I've learned a lot from simple projects that I wouldn't have realized had I not just did it.

turkey · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:29 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 16 Apr 2009, 12:23 am

Good luck Pat.

Just remember, if it was easy, a lot more people would be DIY.

BTW, what $20k speaker do you think there is only $300-400 in parts? What does the cabinet look like and what is it made of?

I know of one speaker that, at the time it was released, used 4 drivers per speaker worth about $1000, and the cabinet was made of MDF and covered in walnut veneer. It was announced at $60K.

turkey · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:34 pm »

Quote from: 2bigears on 16 Apr 2009, 12:00 am

trade for some years,downgraded to a bad handyman let the sawdust fly off that MDF.think my first build will be the Venue OB with GR Danny.

You ought to take a look at some of the Geddes speakers. I can think of at least two speaker systems that cost $20K+ that Earl's speakers are far better than.

turkey · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:37 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 16 Apr 2009, 01:22 pm

The real reason why many DIY'ers do what they do is the love of it, the learning experience, the chance to build to suit their unique tastes (customization) and even the chance to make less compromises for their set of criterion and order of importance.

That sums it up pretty well.

Brown · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:50 pm »

Does anyone feel that Magico or YBA offer any type of value ? Or just overkill ? As Josh stated the tools alone would set you back a bit. To me unless one is going to build several speakers in their lifetime and has woodworking knowledge stay away. Kits another story. IMO more complete kits should be available, and not just speakers. My 2 cents.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 01:59 pm »

I have been involved in DIY in one way or another for closing on 20 years now. It started with motorcycles, when I rebuilt my first 2 stroke motor. It currently surfaces for audio, and sometimes other pursuits.

I think you have to approach DIY with 0 value on your own time. If you really think you can one off a fantastic piece, with the first try, and without buying tools, I suspect you are way off.

That said, if you stick to what you know (I never, ever did motorcycle electrical - I would swap motors, frames, wheels, brakes, everything with a molex plug is onside, but if you have to cut stuff up and rewire, that I outsource, along with bleeding brakes - simple yes, but I would rather leverage someone else with the experience and comfort for it) and can learn, and leave the rest, you will have a lot of fun, learn a ton, and perhaps save some money.

It also helps if you abandon attractive finishes for the first little while, those details and learning curves cost time and money.

2bigears · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 03:18 pm »

best way to battle high prices is to wait for used speakers at the usual 50% off.i you look at say those Super 8's for sale.no way a guy can put those together for a couple g.i guess it's all relative in the end.the market will dictate what you can get away with.still,stupidity is out there.is it rampent,maybe.is it common,most likely.all i know is if Chris comes over and leans on my diy speaker,it might fall over

[better top up the life insurance]

Bill A · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 03:19 pm »

200% seems low to me. I reconed a pair of AR TSW-410 three ways awhile back. Those sold for around $600 a pair in 1980 IIRC. There is not $150 worth of parts in each of them them. Stamped frame poly cone woofer and mid. Crossover glued to the input cup. They do have a titanium tweeter

They were billed as acoustic suspension, but the mid and woofer shared the same cabinet volume. One acts as a passive radiator to the other. Doesn't sound like great engineering to me, in more ways than one. The cabinet was pretty solid, though.

In house design of drivers, cabinet materials and construction methods, as well as the speaker design itself will add to the cost of parts. Not to mention distribution, advertising, etc. Think Wilson, Magico, B&W.

Building your own is more than financially rewarding.

Bill