AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: 2bigears on 16 Apr 2009, 12:00 am
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:D this modern or real world stuff kills me.i know people gotta eat and R-D is costly,but in a 20,000.00 dollar speaker,parts come to 3 or 400 bucks +- and the rest is box build :o.i really can't sleep at night no more with this bounching of the insides of my head,heating up that last brain cell like a microwave device.i an going to flip-flop into the DIY world of speakers.a carpenter at trade,not working in the trade for some years,downgraded to a bad handyman :lol: let the sawdust fly off that MDF.think my first build will be the Venue OB with GR Danny. :D
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200% markup would be cheap.
Good luck with speaker building. Just remember tolerances are a bit more critical than in carpentry. And wear a dust mask, MDF will kill ya.
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Good luck Pat.
Just remember, if it was easy, a lot more people would be DIY. :wink:
BTW, what $20k speaker do you think there is only $300-400 in parts? What does the cabinet look like and what is it made of?
A lot of cost can absolutely go into the cabinet.
For example, if you take Danny's new OB design and ask somebody to build you some nice cabinets, I bet it would cost $1500-2000.
George
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:D i gotta,gotta,gotta hear that bass :thumb: we love our bass hear in Canada.Danny also mentioned that top driver is super fast.what is nice is that the cost is the tax on a mid pair on speakers these days. :D i really won't worry too much for the dust as i am carrying a couple pounds of fine in'dust'rial waste from my wood-butcher days.it's all bout' fun and music.... :D
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200% markup would be cheap.
Good luck with speaker building. Just remember tolerances are a bit more critical than in carpentry. And wear a dust mask, MDF will kill ya.
I agree with Josh. 200% markup is like just giving it away. Its only worth it perhaps if the loudspeaker cost $10K to build, and even then, you would think that the fella had a whole team help him design and build the speaker so you are still giving it away after paying off your staff.
I do DIY for only one reason. Its f&^*(in FUN.
Anand.
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i an going to flip-flop into the DIY world of speakers.a carpenter at trade....let the sawdust fly off that MDF
diy is growing fast. Lots of support. 1st lesson. MDF is a bad material to make speakers out of.
dave
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Someone once said: "The best way to make a million dollars in the loudspeaker inductry is to start with 10 million."
Bob
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Materials to build my speakers cost total at almost 2K.
That includes:
*drivers
*wiring
*hardware
*wood
*finishes
*leather
I am not even sweating the shop cost and delivery expenses.
Considering the package deal discount - you almost end up paying my material cost.
I have been banging my head against the wall long and hard to come up with the best possible price. :banghead:
Some manufacturers hike they prices in respond to positive review(s) and excessive advertisement tactics.
Sure there are other expenses involved in 50K speakers - it is called marketing. :lol:
If I wanted to make real money, I can build simple $1500 box speaker with $200 in parts & another $200 in veneer, Ply/MDF. And it would still turn heads. :lol: :lol:
Then submit it for review with shipment paid one way and check for 6 month advertisement. Wait for review - add shinny cones, better finish and charge you double. Sounds good?
If anyone is interested in building my speakers and believes it is overpriced, please PM and I will provide you with complete list of materials and basic build technique to accomplish similar effect.
( what you think your hour is worth X 150 )
Mariusz :thumb:
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For 10k in parts you can get speakers that run with the quarter million dollar type league.
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:D plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ???? WT,how would you spend 10k in parts,that's alota high quality parts....you look at some 30,000.00 dollar speakers like the 20T's or 70,000.00 VSA 9's,heavy boxes that cost big -big bucks to make and do look good.i bet the parts cost would really suprise most.... :D i know these guys cater to the rich crowd,but ya gotta shake your head..i guess there are a lot of people in the food chain you have to feed. DIY should be fun..... :thumb: :D
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:D plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ????
MDF is the hot ticket material. People who argue against it are in the minority. You can also use baltic birch void-free ply (and this may be better for subwoofers), but it's expensive. Regular ply has voids and is strongly not recommended. Actual wood is the worst choice.
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DIY audio is great!
I always inhale the formaldehyde from the MDF (not all MDF is made with it anymore...) followed with the toxins I breath in with using lead solder...
...But in the end, it's worth it.
-West
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:D plan10,,,,i thought mdf was the hot ticket material,does plywood not res too bad ???? WT,how would you spend 10k in parts,that's alota high quality parts....you look at some 30,000.00 dollar speakers like the 20T's or 70,000.00 VSA 9's,heavy boxes that cost big -big bucks to make and do look good.i bet the parts cost would really suprise most.... :D i know these guys cater to the rich crowd,but ya gotta shake your head..i guess there are a lot of people in the food chain you have to feed. DIY should be fun..... :thumb: :D
Looking to outliers in the uber expensive category isn't a good example of how to think of things IMHO. Saving money shouldn't really be the prime motivator either. Anyone who has experience in the DIY world will tell you ultimately you don't save a great deal, especially if you value your time otherwise. It has to be a hobby unto its own, like others mentioned.
Cost only becomes the benefitter when you look to all the speakers you would have otherwise purchased in your life versus all the projects you can build. Then if you amortize the tool costs and materials it starts to look attractive from a purely cost perspective.
The real reason why many DIY'ers do what they do is the love of it, the learning experience, the chance to build to suit their unique tastes (customization) and even the chance to make less compromises for their set of criterion and order of importance.
The DIY community with the help of great forums really made the hobby like an open-source project with sharing and digestion of all the latest science, research, materials, etc. To that end, sometimes the DIY community is even pushing the envelope faster than the commercial realm. But, in hone your skills to keep up with this frontier takes experience, that comes with time, not your first project.
The biggest stumbling block is when a first timer tries to tackle too difficult or grandiose a project despite encouragement to start small. When things become more challenging than they expect they get discouraged and give up on DIY. Take the advice of those before you and start with a well established kits or project that is well documented and learn what you can from it. There are more subtle things than you first realize. This will gain you some confidence to step it up the next time.
I did the same with speakers and tube projects and I've learned a lot from simple projects that I wouldn't have realized had I not just did it.
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Good luck Pat.
Just remember, if it was easy, a lot more people would be DIY. :wink:
BTW, what $20k speaker do you think there is only $300-400 in parts? What does the cabinet look like and what is it made of?
I know of one speaker that, at the time it was released, used 4 drivers per speaker worth about $1000, and the cabinet was made of MDF and covered in walnut veneer. It was announced at $60K.
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trade for some years,downgraded to a bad handyman :lol: let the sawdust fly off that MDF.think my first build will be the Venue OB with GR Danny. :D
You ought to take a look at some of the Geddes speakers. I can think of at least two speaker systems that cost $20K+ that Earl's speakers are far better than.
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The real reason why many DIY'ers do what they do is the love of it, the learning experience, the chance to build to suit their unique tastes (customization) and even the chance to make less compromises for their set of criterion and order of importance.
That sums it up pretty well.
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Does anyone feel that Magico or YBA offer any type of value ? Or just overkill ? As Josh stated the tools alone would set you back a bit. To me unless one is going to build several speakers in their lifetime and has woodworking knowledge stay away. Kits another story. IMO more complete kits should be available, and not just speakers. My 2 cents.
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I have been involved in DIY in one way or another for closing on 20 years now. It started with motorcycles, when I rebuilt my first 2 stroke motor. It currently surfaces for audio, and sometimes other pursuits.
I think you have to approach DIY with 0 value on your own time. If you really think you can one off a fantastic piece, with the first try, and without buying tools, I suspect you are way off.
That said, if you stick to what you know (I never, ever did motorcycle electrical - I would swap motors, frames, wheels, brakes, everything with a molex plug is onside, but if you have to cut stuff up and rewire, that I outsource, along with bleeding brakes - simple yes, but I would rather leverage someone else with the experience and comfort for it) and can learn, and leave the rest, you will have a lot of fun, learn a ton, and perhaps save some money.
It also helps if you abandon attractive finishes for the first little while, those details and learning curves cost time and money.
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:D best way to battle high prices is to wait for used speakers at the usual 50% off.i you look at say those Super 8's for sale.no way a guy can put those together for a couple g.i guess it's all relative in the end.the market will dictate what you can get away with.still,stupidity is out there.is it rampent,maybe.is it common,most likely.all i know is if Chris comes over and leans on my diy speaker,it might fall over :lol: :D [better top up the life insurance] :D
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200% seems low to me. I reconed a pair of AR TSW-410 three ways awhile back. Those sold for around $600 a pair in 1980 IIRC. There is not $150 worth of parts in each of them them. Stamped frame poly cone woofer and mid. Crossover glued to the input cup. They do have a titanium tweeter :?
They were billed as acoustic suspension, but the mid and woofer shared the same cabinet volume. One acts as a passive radiator to the other. Doesn't sound like great engineering to me, in more ways than one. The cabinet was pretty solid, though.
In house design of drivers, cabinet materials and construction methods, as well as the speaker design itself will add to the cost of parts. Not to mention distribution, advertising, etc. Think Wilson, Magico, B&W.
Building your own is more than financially rewarding.
Bill
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Like a few have already mentioned, don't get into DIY with the intention of saving money. Do it only if you enjoy the whole process. Looking at the used prices of commercial speakers, and what it might cost to built from a kit .. the difference is not all that great. But you won't get the satisfaction of DIY plus you'll learn a lot.
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Some of the cost of any loudspeaker reflects the costs of the equipment to produce the cabinet. Can anyone spell CNC router. The CNC router is a cool quarter of a million dollars brand new. Obviously the mgfr. is trying to get out from under this debt sooner rather than later. They are also paying for skilled labor to build their product. The other factor impacting the cost of the loudspeaker is related to the perceived value of the speaker. For some reason audiophiles and the public in general believe that if something costs more it has to be superior to a similar product that costs less. Or to put it another way if your product does not cost enough it will not be taken seriously by the targeted audiophile buyer.
Yes,I know, it's crazy but it's true. Your street cred as a manufacturer of audiophile products is directly related to your products bling factor and its cost.
Scotty
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:D good points,and well taken.but i just can't handle the fact that 40 to 80% of speaker cost is for a 'BOX',and to make that box look shinny and pretty. most people think if it ain't real expensive,it ain't no good, hummmm :D
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There is also a difference between building a kit/project which driver choice, cabinet size/volume and crossover is spelled out for you and completely ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER to design your own crossover. The later is not impossible but it is a very steep learning curve. You have to love doing it or you might find it daunting.
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There is also a difference between building a kit/project which driver choice, cabinet size/volume and crossover is spelled out for you and completely ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER to design your own crossover. The later is not impossible but it is a very steep learning curve. You have to love doing it or you might find it daunting.
Crossovers are really easy. You just follow the charts in one of those cookbook style books by Weems... :)
(You have to wonder if he ever actually listened to the speakers in his books, or if he even liked listening to music.)
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It’s not just the box. It’s the building rent or mortgage, the insurance, the employees, the marketing, the computer systems and software, the office furniture, the legal costs to make sure you’re not getting sued for something, or have a legal problem like zoning, or employment law, the accounting costs, taxes, the cost of loans. . . . I could go on and on. The minute it becomes a business, the materials costs are only a small fraction of your TOTAL and real cost.
Another subject: For a long time we offered full-kits. Turned out they were actually more expensive than finished speakers. (detail plans, packaging, customer support “how do I put this together”, the problems when it was assembled improperly, etc.) The only true cost savings for DIY is if you build the cabinet yourself. I remember the turning point was when we offered a "free assembly" special on full kits. In two months, not ONE customer elected to build it themself.
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Please consider the difference among:
- Designing a crossover to match and complement a specific set of drivers, enclosure, speaker design, etc.,
- Tweaking the crossover, and perhaps the speaker design, to produce the desired "sound"
- Assembling a crossover based on a design
The first two, IMO, are both art and science. Manufacturers (and DIY folks) spend various amounts of effort and money on them to achieve a design, price point, etc.
Putting an improved crossover design in an inexpensive manufacturer's speaker improved the sound for me. I just "assembled" it. :D
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The only true cost savings for DIY is if you build the cabinet yourself. I remember the turning point was when we offered a "free assembly" special on full kits. In two months, not ONE customer elected to build it themself.
That's me! :lol:
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200% MARKUP??? Minimum is 500 to 600% markup on any I have sold retail. I use to work for a high end 2 channel and home theater joint... Man it would make you cry if you knew how much the dealer paid for those speakers :oops: For example a 2500 dollar pair retail we would sell maybe at a discount for about 2200.00... We paid minus freight somewhere around 600 to 700 per pair sometimes.
Now lets not even get into cables!! Scary as I have had pairs that TOTAL had 15 dollars worth of parts and one hour of time put into them, and retail was 600 bucks :icon_surprised:
But custom packaging, Marketing, and Labor costs all add in, maybe not totally fair on some products, some are a joke and way overpriced regadless how much we try to justify them.
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:D yes my 200 was way off.and Mike makes the point of all the hidded costs we mortals don't think about.spend a million to make a thousand,i like that,true enough.used is where it's at with brand names.but still,a 20,000.00 dollar speaker using a 40 buck mid driver don't seem right.must try to get over it....the box--the box--the box-- :lol:
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Do all luxury products have a mark up in the 300% or more? I would think so. The price of doing business and the cost of the ''brand''.
You have to pay for knowledge and skills; either you spend a lot of time finding the
info on the different aspects of speaker building (choosing the right driver-xover -box) or pay someone who has this knowledge.
Choosing a quality driver is one of the most important part of this adventure.
A way to get a good value is to choose a fullrange and ask the manufacturer for a plan for the cabinet that you have built or build yourself.
Another solution if again a fullrange in an open-baffle. You get less bass, but with the proper driver a very good sound.
If you want deep bass; then, it's more difficult and costly. But even diy is not a waranty to good sound....
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:D good points,and well taken.but i just can't handle the fact that 40 to 80% of speaker cost is for a 'BOX',and to make that box look shinny and pretty. most people think if it ain't real expensive,it ain't no good, hummmm :D
The box is probably the single most important component in a good speaker...unless you're in the OB camp.
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:D good points,and well taken.but i just can't handle the fact that 40 to 80% of speaker cost is for a 'BOX',and to make that box look shinny and pretty. most people think if it ain't real expensive,it ain't no good, hummmm :D
The box is probably the single most important component in a good speaker...unless you're in the OB camp.
....that and appropriate, quality drivers. The rest is tuning.