Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?

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Joe Frances

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Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« on: 22 Sep 2018, 02:51 am »
Ok, so I am Rip Van Winkle; I dropped out of the audio hobby when I started a family in 1998.  Then it was pretty much CDs, and when I could listen to music I did it in the car; or the Bose radio, or my existing system which was fine at the time.  Now I am back as Rip Van Winkle; and it's all DACs and nomenclature that I really don't understand.  I have a zillion CDs and I am going to need a new CD player (maybe unless I am told otherwise) soon; and the BCD 3 is my choice there.  Also, I know a tiny bit about streaming and I bought a small $169 Audio Engine to stream radio shows, and it is great.  I don't have much music on my computer; and I am enough of a classical music audiophile nut not to find many of the great historic recordings that I love on Tidal or whatever, even though I have been looking just doing research.  So, I am thinking why would I need a DAC? I have talked to a few guys in the few audio stores that still exit, and I don't get it.  I mean I hear what they say, but I am not going to replace all these CDs; maybe I will "rip" them someday.   But if I want to upgrade my system, why would I want a DAC, and if did why would I spend more than a couple of grand on a DAC?  Maybe not a good question for this forum, but I trust Jim Tanner, and like the folks here so maybe you can enlighten me.  Thanks,

Joe

grsimmon

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #1 on: 22 Sep 2018, 03:01 am »
You don't.  And all those CD's you have will sound just fine on a modern CD player. 

Calypte

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #2 on: 22 Sep 2018, 04:51 am »
Joe, until recently, I was in exactly the same spot as you.  Not that I dropped out of music (mostly classical music for me), but I was strictly a CD and SACD man.  About three years ago I decided to explore the world of digital downloads.  For that I needed a DAC.  I got one (Emotiva XDA-2 Gen 2).  I
downloaded the files to a computer that I considered surplus from other duties.  It needs to be pointed out that your PC or MacBook already has a built-in DAC.  I'm not sure if there's a way to feed the output of your computer's DAC directly to your pre-amp.  But if I was going to be playing hi-rez files -- i.e., beyond redbook CD specifications -- then I needed a DAC.  Allegedly a good DAC will yield better sound than any computer's built-in DAC, but I've never made the comparison.  So I was playing a few hi-rez downloads stored on the computer's hard drive and fed to the DAC, and everything else was standard CDs and SACDs, played the old-fashioned way through my Oppo BDP-83se universal player. 

That's were things stood until I attended an audio show in L.A.  I was impressed that every demo that didn't use a turntable had the manufacturer's rep cueing up music on a tablet or laptop.  In fact, I didn't see a CD player anywhere in the entire show.  In every case, the music was stored on a hard disk drive somewhere and then played through a digital player, of which I saw several brands.  I wanted to be able to play my music as they did at the audio show.  So very early this year I bought a Bryston BDP-pi digital music player, and I began "ripping" my CD collection to a Western Digital Passport hard-disk drive for play through the Bryston.  I originally intended to rip only a few favorite items, but ripping CDs to the Passport became a regular spare-time activity, done while watching TV.  A good chunk of my collection is now on the Passport drive.  Now, I know bits are bits.  But it seems a lot can happen downstream from the disc.  It is my considered opinion that the bits played through the Bryston BDP-pi and Emotiva DAC sound better than they do through my Oppo. 

The next frontier for me is streaming.  It appears to me that the USA is not currently a good environment for classical music streaming.  The big streaming sites are (I've been told) set up mainly for pop/rock, and locating specific classical selections can be frustratingly difficult.  That may change if we ever get Qobuz or Idagio (European acquaintances rave about Idagio), but classical-music streaming is still mostly in the future in the USA.

gbaby

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #3 on: 22 Sep 2018, 04:54 am »
Joe, do not listen to grsimmon as he does not know what he is talking about and should not be on this forum with that answer. My question to you is first what type of equipment do you own? Your benefit from a D/A converter will ultimately be dependant on the resolving power of your equipment. I own the BDA3, and it certainly makes two channel music sound better than the D/A converter of my SP3, which I no slough itself.

Early B.

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #4 on: 22 Sep 2018, 05:13 am »
You don't.  And all those CD's you have will sound just fine on a modern CD player.

This is correct. You don't need a separate DAC to play your CDs. However, you'll need a DAC for two main reasons:

1. If you decide to go digital; or

2. If you want better sound than a CD player can provide. Generally, a transport/DAC combo will sound better than a CD player. Of course, the cost for the transport/DAC combo will likely be substantially higher than a CD player alone.   

And yeah, expect to pay more than $2 grand for a higher end DAC. Same for a high end transport. 

firedog

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #5 on: 22 Sep 2018, 06:36 am »
If you want a separate DAC, i'd suggest that the bang for the buck area is in the $500-$1200 range. SQ improvements for the more expensive DACs are going to be small (if at all, in some cases).

I'd look at features etc in my price range and narrow it down to two or three models that have the features I want, then decide. For instance, if you want to playback DSD, or need a remote volume control, or balanced outputs.

firedog

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #6 on: 22 Sep 2018, 06:46 am »


The next frontier for me is streaming.  It appears to me that the USA is not currently a good environment for classical music streaming.  The big streaming sites are (I've been told) set up mainly for pop/rock, and locating specific classical selections can be frustratingly difficult.  That may change if we ever get Qobuz or Idagio (European acquaintances rave about Idagio), but classical-music streaming is still mostly in the future in the USA.
Qobuz is in the final stages of opening it's streaming and file purchases to the US.  Will be available sometime between now and the end of the year.

Anonamemouse

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #7 on: 22 Sep 2018, 07:47 am »
First of all, avoid getting sucked into the high resolution void. Sound quality does NOT come from extreme bitrates, it comes from the sound engineer in the studio and the guy that did the mastering. A normal human will not hear the difference between regular cd resolution (16/44.1) and DSD (24+/pointless). The ones that claim they do hear differences in mastering, not in resolution. Even professionals that make a living with their ears have an extremely hard time hearing the differences in resolution.
(This guy http://archimago.blogspot.com posted a blind test a while ago, but my ancient iPad keeps crashing on the adds on his site. You'll have to dig a little yourself, sorry... Enjoy the read)

Second, you are looking to buy a BCD3, something previous commentors apparently missed. With this player you will basically have no added value from a separate DAC.

Third, if you ever decide to take the streaming path, buy a Lumin. Excellent streamers, built in excellent DAC. Also keep in mind that not a single online streaming service provides details on the used source material. Which usually is the latest "remaster", which in turn more often than not is the worst sounding version of an album.

Finally, if you do decide to buy a DAC, definitely look into Schiit. The Gungnir Multibit is extreme value for money. But, as mentioned, with a BCD3, you won't need one.

In the end, trust your own ears, not someone elses opinions.
« Last Edit: 22 Sep 2018, 11:44 am by Anonamemouse »

Calypte

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #8 on: 22 Sep 2018, 09:21 am »
Quote
A normal human will not hear the difference between regular cd resolution (16/44.1) and DSD (24+/pointless).
Actually, I agree.  In my case, when I started to explore hi-rez (anything above CD resolution), it was because some people claimed that whatever was "wrong" with CDs could be solved by doubling (or quadrupling etc) the sampling rate and bit depth.  I wanted to try it for myself.  Not being an engineer, I can only weigh the articles that have come my way that explain, essentially, that better-than-CD specs provide no audible benefit.  Higher sampling rates and bit rates apparently have value to mastering engineers, but not to end-users.  Further, I would suggest that even MP3 isn't necessarily the disastrous downgrade most audiophiles assume it to be.  I always avoided MP3 like the plague.  But at the audio show that I mentioned earlier, I heard a recording of Mahler's Symphony No. 6 that I liked so much, I wanted a copy for myself.  All I could find at a tolerable price was an MP3 download on Amazon.  I can't claim that the MP3 sounds the same as the CD, but, heard on its own, the sound is excellent.  Somebody's ears are more golden than mine if they can hear anything substandard about it.  I did buy both MP3 and CD-res downloads of Mahler's Sym 5 with Yannick Nezet-Seguin and the Philadelphia Orchestra.  I'm sorry, but they sound identical to me.

Elizabeth

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #9 on: 22 Sep 2018, 12:09 pm »
Other folks at other sites are asking the same question. "Why do I need a DAC/what CD player should I buy". I say plenty of good cheap used CD spinners available. Then getting a good DAC to use with the (now) cheap CD player you use just from digital out.
I used a bought used for $250 DAC that was great, for a long time. Along with a collection of old players I bought on average for $40 off eBay.
I finally bought a better than that DAC for $7000 this Summer. and still us the new SACD player as a DAC with my cheap disc spinners.
So I am saying it is worth it to own a good DAC. The only question is what sort of stuff (devices) do you want to be able to attach to it? So buying a DAC with the capability to use those devices.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #10 on: 22 Sep 2018, 12:16 pm »
@calypte, MP3-320 is excellent. Cheaper than Flac and in many instances more than adequate (i.e. indistinguishable except perhaps on cans close-up).

OP: Get a decent DAC. It will open up new worlds of music.

timind

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #11 on: 22 Sep 2018, 12:22 pm »
Easy solution: get a cd player with digital inputs. They're very common and make the audio life so much simpler. Even simpler, get a cd player with digital inputs and a good volume control and you can forgo a preamp.

In my quest for simplicity a few years ago, i did just that. I love mine.

macrojack

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #12 on: 22 Sep 2018, 12:48 pm »
Joe - You sound pretty knowledgeable but admit to having slept through the digitalization of hi-fi. So let's start with definitions. A CD player is composed of a spinner (transport) and a translator (DAC). So every CD player comes with a DAC on board. You need to determine where your system is now (hyerarchically speaking) and what your ambitions might be going forward. As was mentioned, you can use  certain DACs as a preamp if they have a volume control of their own. Many a years old DVD player (OPPO?) has a great transport but is obsoleted by its DAC. Using one of these older DVDs as a transport and using a more modern DAC with it can get you well along. Taking care that your new DAC provides for streaming will grant you some degree of future proofing. Whether or not you require DSD or MQA among other options will determine variety of options and also cost.

Stating where your system is now and where you want to be able to progress to will allow us ACers to lay out fairly specific advancement strategies. I have recently awakened from a period of somnambulance, like yourself, and I find myself drowning in acronyms. Don't fret. It all becomes clear eventually (I'm hoping).

If you decide that digital is just too much trouble, I have several hundred classical LPs you can have in bulk for cheap.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #13 on: 22 Sep 2018, 01:28 pm »
Based on your initial post it sounds like the BCD-3 will be just  fine.  Nothing wrong with spinning discs.  The BCD-3 has digital outputs, so if you do develop interest in a music server/streamer in the future you can add a DAC at a later date and still spin discs to the new DAC from the BDC-3.

As you investigate servers and streaming you'll discover it is not that easy to get equivalent sound quality from those sources connected to the same DAC as the cd transport. Many still use cds for their most critical listening.

AndrewA

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #14 on: 22 Sep 2018, 03:36 pm »
There are distinct advantages to having the CD transport and the DAC talking to each other within the same box.

If you have mainly or exclusively Red Book CDs, the BCD-3 will be an excellent choice.  I just bought one, and am extremely happy with the preliminary results.  It replaces a BCD-1.  Bryston support is second to none.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #15 on: 22 Sep 2018, 04:02 pm »
Why should you spend $2K on a DAC?  Because they make music sound better than CD, especially hi-rez music  in most instances.  In addition, you can put all your music on a computer hard drive and use programs like Roon or JRiver (Roon sounds better) or  a program like HQ player which has many settings that can improve and up sample music.

Most DAC's sound different and generally the more money you spend the better they sound, so don't skimp. I have heard and have had quite a few DAC's- Luxman DA-06, Marantz NA11s1, Cary TS200, Exogal Comet, AVA Ultra SLII, Emotiva Big Ego AQ Dragonfly.  And I have heard the PS Audio DSD, Hugo Chord, Bryston BDA-1, T+A DAC8, Lampizator lite 7, Exasound, Auralic Vega, Wyred 4 Sound DSDse to name a few.

There are many great DAC's available at all price points.  Just like everything in audio, they are system dependent.

Also, do not skimp on a usb cable, they do sound different and are system dependent.  You can trial several usb cables from here-

https://www.thecableco.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjw0JfdBRACEiwAiDTALtu0hU9EVnwqn4XsyYnNzc3aRmkF9jiI-k1Cma4XUhFVzrEmStaCZxoCZy4QAvD_BwE

If you need a new CD player, there are many excellent player-DAC combos as the Bryston BCD-3.

Joe Frances

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #16 on: 22 Sep 2018, 05:43 pm »
Boy, you guys are great!  Thank you so much for your suggestions and help.  I appreciate it very much.

I am going to re-read this thread a couple of times then go to a dealer and chat about my options and needs.  Even my current Copland CD player has a digital "out" switch, so I should at least in theory be able to bring it to the dealer and listen to some CDs that I know well, and presumably hear what a DAC brings to the table.  This CD player is about 20 years old, and is starting to make "noises-- clicks" on some CDs, and I think it will be time to get a new player soon.  I have heard the Bryston BCD 3 and liked it a lot.  I know it's expensive but I like equipment that lasts a long time (and I am not planning to spend all my free time for the next 6 months ripping CDs). 

Again, thats bros.

James Tanner

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Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #17 on: 22 Sep 2018, 08:57 pm »
Hi Folks

One of the advantages of a CD Player is the internal 'DAC' can be 'Clocked' specifically to the 'Drive' at 44.1 and 16Bits resulting in zero digital timing errors (jitter) because it 'knows' what the signal will be coming in at all times. Also the closer the DAC is to the Clock the more accurate it will be.

With an outboard DAC or a CD Player with inputs for an outboard source the DAC has to be designed so that it can deal with different sample rates and bit rates and therefore must reclock and resample the incoming signal thereby producing greater jitter errors.

So it could be argued depending on the amount of jitter or timing errors that a quality CD Player will outperform any external DAC regardless of price point. Also remember that a DAC is a Digital to Analog conversion system and the quality of the analog section and the power supply performance is critical to quality playback.

james

PS - the December issue of the Absolute Sound Magazine has a review of the Bryston BCD-3 and as the Brits would say - it's a corker !

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #18 on: 22 Sep 2018, 10:17 pm »
James,

I think that the newer higher priced DAC's will better most CD players in the same price point in sound.  I have heard a few higher end CD players and many high end DAC's including the Bricasti M1 which was the best sounding DAC I have heard.  I think that Jitter and timing errors are inaudible for most of today well engineered DAC's including Bryston DAC's which are awesome by the way.  Of course a lot depends upon your storage medium for music.  I used a high end laptop for my music but once I switched to a custom built computer with a low noise power supply and a MOBO that uses high end caps  it was like a veil was lifted from the music.  Of course, using CD's with a dedicated CDP avoids all this along with issues with USB.

Calypte

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #19 on: 23 Sep 2018, 01:50 am »
Quote
I finally bought a better than that DAC for $7000 this Summer
Loaded question, Elizabeth: is the new DAC worth the $$?  Do you hear a significant improvement?