AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: Joe Frances on 22 Sep 2018, 02:51 am
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Ok, so I am Rip Van Winkle; I dropped out of the audio hobby when I started a family in 1998. Then it was pretty much CDs, and when I could listen to music I did it in the car; or the Bose radio, or my existing system which was fine at the time. Now I am back as Rip Van Winkle; and it's all DACs and nomenclature that I really don't understand. I have a zillion CDs and I am going to need a new CD player (maybe unless I am told otherwise) soon; and the BCD 3 is my choice there. Also, I know a tiny bit about streaming and I bought a small $169 Audio Engine to stream radio shows, and it is great. I don't have much music on my computer; and I am enough of a classical music audiophile nut not to find many of the great historic recordings that I love on Tidal or whatever, even though I have been looking just doing research. So, I am thinking why would I need a DAC? I have talked to a few guys in the few audio stores that still exit, and I don't get it. I mean I hear what they say, but I am not going to replace all these CDs; maybe I will "rip" them someday. But if I want to upgrade my system, why would I want a DAC, and if did why would I spend more than a couple of grand on a DAC? Maybe not a good question for this forum, but I trust Jim Tanner, and like the folks here so maybe you can enlighten me. Thanks,
Joe
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You don't. And all those CD's you have will sound just fine on a modern CD player.
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Joe, until recently, I was in exactly the same spot as you. Not that I dropped out of music (mostly classical music for me), but I was strictly a CD and SACD man. About three years ago I decided to explore the world of digital downloads. For that I needed a DAC. I got one (Emotiva XDA-2 Gen 2). I
downloaded the files to a computer that I considered surplus from other duties. It needs to be pointed out that your PC or MacBook already has a built-in DAC. I'm not sure if there's a way to feed the output of your computer's DAC directly to your pre-amp. But if I was going to be playing hi-rez files -- i.e., beyond redbook CD specifications -- then I needed a DAC. Allegedly a good DAC will yield better sound than any computer's built-in DAC, but I've never made the comparison. So I was playing a few hi-rez downloads stored on the computer's hard drive and fed to the DAC, and everything else was standard CDs and SACDs, played the old-fashioned way through my Oppo BDP-83se universal player.
That's were things stood until I attended an audio show in L.A. I was impressed that every demo that didn't use a turntable had the manufacturer's rep cueing up music on a tablet or laptop. In fact, I didn't see a CD player anywhere in the entire show. In every case, the music was stored on a hard disk drive somewhere and then played through a digital player, of which I saw several brands. I wanted to be able to play my music as they did at the audio show. So very early this year I bought a Bryston BDP-pi digital music player, and I began "ripping" my CD collection to a Western Digital Passport hard-disk drive for play through the Bryston. I originally intended to rip only a few favorite items, but ripping CDs to the Passport became a regular spare-time activity, done while watching TV. A good chunk of my collection is now on the Passport drive. Now, I know bits are bits. But it seems a lot can happen downstream from the disc. It is my considered opinion that the bits played through the Bryston BDP-pi and Emotiva DAC sound better than they do through my Oppo.
The next frontier for me is streaming. It appears to me that the USA is not currently a good environment for classical music streaming. The big streaming sites are (I've been told) set up mainly for pop/rock, and locating specific classical selections can be frustratingly difficult. That may change if we ever get Qobuz or Idagio (European acquaintances rave about Idagio), but classical-music streaming is still mostly in the future in the USA.
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Joe, do not listen to grsimmon as he does not know what he is talking about and should not be on this forum with that answer. My question to you is first what type of equipment do you own? Your benefit from a D/A converter will ultimately be dependant on the resolving power of your equipment. I own the BDA3, and it certainly makes two channel music sound better than the D/A converter of my SP3, which I no slough itself.
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You don't. And all those CD's you have will sound just fine on a modern CD player.
This is correct. You don't need a separate DAC to play your CDs. However, you'll need a DAC for two main reasons:
1. If you decide to go digital; or
2. If you want better sound than a CD player can provide. Generally, a transport/DAC combo will sound better than a CD player. Of course, the cost for the transport/DAC combo will likely be substantially higher than a CD player alone.
And yeah, expect to pay more than $2 grand for a higher end DAC. Same for a high end transport.
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If you want a separate DAC, i'd suggest that the bang for the buck area is in the $500-$1200 range. SQ improvements for the more expensive DACs are going to be small (if at all, in some cases).
I'd look at features etc in my price range and narrow it down to two or three models that have the features I want, then decide. For instance, if you want to playback DSD, or need a remote volume control, or balanced outputs.
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The next frontier for me is streaming. It appears to me that the USA is not currently a good environment for classical music streaming. The big streaming sites are (I've been told) set up mainly for pop/rock, and locating specific classical selections can be frustratingly difficult. That may change if we ever get Qobuz or Idagio (European acquaintances rave about Idagio), but classical-music streaming is still mostly in the future in the USA.
Qobuz is in the final stages of opening it's streaming and file purchases to the US. Will be available sometime between now and the end of the year.
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First of all, avoid getting sucked into the high resolution void. Sound quality does NOT come from extreme bitrates, it comes from the sound engineer in the studio and the guy that did the mastering. A normal human will not hear the difference between regular cd resolution (16/44.1) and DSD (24+/pointless). The ones that claim they do hear differences in mastering, not in resolution. Even professionals that make a living with their ears have an extremely hard time hearing the differences in resolution.
(This guy http://archimago.blogspot.com posted a blind test a while ago, but my ancient iPad keeps crashing on the adds on his site. You'll have to dig a little yourself, sorry... Enjoy the read)
Second, you are looking to buy a BCD3, something previous commentors apparently missed. With this player you will basically have no added value from a separate DAC.
Third, if you ever decide to take the streaming path, buy a Lumin. Excellent streamers, built in excellent DAC. Also keep in mind that not a single online streaming service provides details on the used source material. Which usually is the latest "remaster", which in turn more often than not is the worst sounding version of an album.
Finally, if you do decide to buy a DAC, definitely look into Schiit. The Gungnir Multibit is extreme value for money. But, as mentioned, with a BCD3, you won't need one.
In the end, trust your own ears, not someone elses opinions.
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A normal human will not hear the difference between regular cd resolution (16/44.1) and DSD (24+/pointless).
Actually, I agree. In my case, when I started to explore hi-rez (anything above CD resolution), it was because some people claimed that whatever was "wrong" with CDs could be solved by doubling (or quadrupling etc) the sampling rate and bit depth. I wanted to try it for myself. Not being an engineer, I can only weigh the articles that have come my way that explain, essentially, that better-than-CD specs provide no audible benefit. Higher sampling rates and bit rates apparently have value to mastering engineers, but not to end-users. Further, I would suggest that even MP3 isn't necessarily the disastrous downgrade most audiophiles assume it to be. I always avoided MP3 like the plague. But at the audio show that I mentioned earlier, I heard a recording of Mahler's Symphony No. 6 that I liked so much, I wanted a copy for myself. All I could find at a tolerable price was an MP3 download on Amazon. I can't claim that the MP3 sounds the same as the CD, but, heard on its own, the sound is excellent. Somebody's ears are more golden than mine if they can hear anything substandard about it. I did buy both MP3 and CD-res downloads of Mahler's Sym 5 with Yannick Nezet-Seguin and the Philadelphia Orchestra. I'm sorry, but they sound identical to me.
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Other folks at other sites are asking the same question. "Why do I need a DAC/what CD player should I buy". I say plenty of good cheap used CD spinners available. Then getting a good DAC to use with the (now) cheap CD player you use just from digital out.
I used a bought used for $250 DAC that was great, for a long time. Along with a collection of old players I bought on average for $40 off eBay.
I finally bought a better than that DAC for $7000 this Summer. and still us the new SACD player as a DAC with my cheap disc spinners.
So I am saying it is worth it to own a good DAC. The only question is what sort of stuff (devices) do you want to be able to attach to it? So buying a DAC with the capability to use those devices.
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@calypte, MP3-320 is excellent. Cheaper than Flac and in many instances more than adequate (i.e. indistinguishable except perhaps on cans close-up).
OP: Get a decent DAC. It will open up new worlds of music.
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Easy solution: get a cd player with digital inputs. They're very common and make the audio life so much simpler. Even simpler, get a cd player with digital inputs and a good volume control and you can forgo a preamp.
In my quest for simplicity a few years ago, i did just that. I love mine.
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Joe - You sound pretty knowledgeable but admit to having slept through the digitalization of hi-fi. So let's start with definitions. A CD player is composed of a spinner (transport) and a translator (DAC). So every CD player comes with a DAC on board. You need to determine where your system is now (hyerarchically speaking) and what your ambitions might be going forward. As was mentioned, you can use certain DACs as a preamp if they have a volume control of their own. Many a years old DVD player (OPPO?) has a great transport but is obsoleted by its DAC. Using one of these older DVDs as a transport and using a more modern DAC with it can get you well along. Taking care that your new DAC provides for streaming will grant you some degree of future proofing. Whether or not you require DSD or MQA among other options will determine variety of options and also cost.
Stating where your system is now and where you want to be able to progress to will allow us ACers to lay out fairly specific advancement strategies. I have recently awakened from a period of somnambulance, like yourself, and I find myself drowning in acronyms. Don't fret. It all becomes clear eventually (I'm hoping).
If you decide that digital is just too much trouble, I have several hundred classical LPs you can have in bulk for cheap.
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Based on your initial post it sounds like the BCD-3 will be just fine. Nothing wrong with spinning discs. The BCD-3 has digital outputs, so if you do develop interest in a music server/streamer in the future you can add a DAC at a later date and still spin discs to the new DAC from the BDC-3.
As you investigate servers and streaming you'll discover it is not that easy to get equivalent sound quality from those sources connected to the same DAC as the cd transport. Many still use cds for their most critical listening.
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There are distinct advantages to having the CD transport and the DAC talking to each other within the same box.
If you have mainly or exclusively Red Book CDs, the BCD-3 will be an excellent choice. I just bought one, and am extremely happy with the preliminary results. It replaces a BCD-1. Bryston support is second to none.
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Why should you spend $2K on a DAC? Because they make music sound better than CD, especially hi-rez music in most instances. In addition, you can put all your music on a computer hard drive and use programs like Roon or JRiver (Roon sounds better) or a program like HQ player which has many settings that can improve and up sample music.
Most DAC's sound different and generally the more money you spend the better they sound, so don't skimp. I have heard and have had quite a few DAC's- Luxman DA-06, Marantz NA11s1, Cary TS200, Exogal Comet, AVA Ultra SLII, Emotiva Big Ego AQ Dragonfly. And I have heard the PS Audio DSD, Hugo Chord, Bryston BDA-1, T+A DAC8, Lampizator lite 7, Exasound, Auralic Vega, Wyred 4 Sound DSDse to name a few.
There are many great DAC's available at all price points. Just like everything in audio, they are system dependent.
Also, do not skimp on a usb cable, they do sound different and are system dependent. You can trial several usb cables from here-
https://www.thecableco.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjw0JfdBRACEiwAiDTALtu0hU9EVnwqn4XsyYnNzc3aRmkF9jiI-k1Cma4XUhFVzrEmStaCZxoCZy4QAvD_BwE
If you need a new CD player, there are many excellent player-DAC combos as the Bryston BCD-3.
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Boy, you guys are great! Thank you so much for your suggestions and help. I appreciate it very much.
I am going to re-read this thread a couple of times then go to a dealer and chat about my options and needs. Even my current Copland CD player has a digital "out" switch, so I should at least in theory be able to bring it to the dealer and listen to some CDs that I know well, and presumably hear what a DAC brings to the table. This CD player is about 20 years old, and is starting to make "noises-- clicks" on some CDs, and I think it will be time to get a new player soon. I have heard the Bryston BCD 3 and liked it a lot. I know it's expensive but I like equipment that lasts a long time (and I am not planning to spend all my free time for the next 6 months ripping CDs).
Again, thats bros.
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Hi Folks
One of the advantages of a CD Player is the internal 'DAC' can be 'Clocked' specifically to the 'Drive' at 44.1 and 16Bits resulting in zero digital timing errors (jitter) because it 'knows' what the signal will be coming in at all times. Also the closer the DAC is to the Clock the more accurate it will be.
With an outboard DAC or a CD Player with inputs for an outboard source the DAC has to be designed so that it can deal with different sample rates and bit rates and therefore must reclock and resample the incoming signal thereby producing greater jitter errors.
So it could be argued depending on the amount of jitter or timing errors that a quality CD Player will outperform any external DAC regardless of price point. Also remember that a DAC is a Digital to Analog conversion system and the quality of the analog section and the power supply performance is critical to quality playback.
james
PS - the December issue of the Absolute Sound Magazine has a review of the Bryston BCD-3 and as the Brits would say - it's a corker !
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James,
I think that the newer higher priced DAC's will better most CD players in the same price point in sound. I have heard a few higher end CD players and many high end DAC's including the Bricasti M1 which was the best sounding DAC I have heard. I think that Jitter and timing errors are inaudible for most of today well engineered DAC's including Bryston DAC's which are awesome by the way. Of course a lot depends upon your storage medium for music. I used a high end laptop for my music but once I switched to a custom built computer with a low noise power supply and a MOBO that uses high end caps it was like a veil was lifted from the music. Of course, using CD's with a dedicated CDP avoids all this along with issues with USB.
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I finally bought a better than that DAC for $7000 this Summer
Loaded question, Elizabeth: is the new DAC worth the $$? Do you hear a significant improvement?
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Hey Joe.....where you going with that....just kiddin'
For what it's worth - I'm in absolute agreement with Rusty and JT's comments above.
Given your circumstance (boatloads of CD's), go with Bryston's new CD player and you will be in audiophile heaven. You can't go wrong. Includes a dual balanced DAC and balanced class A output stage. So...just think..you're still getting a great quality DAC inside the player!!
And you won't have to rip all those damn CD's for nothing :).
It's a no brainer. :duh:
Have fun!
TJ
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The law of diminishing returns applies in high end audio. I am yet to find a better DAC/Streamer than my near almost ten year old Slim Devices/Logitech Transporter
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First of all, avoid getting sucked into the high resolution void. Sound quality does NOT come from extreme bitrates, it comes from the sound engineer in the studio and the guy that did the mastering. A normal human will not hear the difference between regular cd resolution (16/44.1) and DSD (24+/pointless).
I agree with this, the magic comes from the mastering and not the resolution. However not all the best sound/masterings are available on 16/44:1, some of the DSD remasters are better than their CD counterparts, Elton John’s catalog is an excellent example of this.
I have experienced a significant difference in the quality of DACs as well, but that is not to say a CD player in your circumstance doesn’t make sense, it may depending on your preference to play optical discs. I can tell you that in my system, a Vinnie Rossi LIO DHT/Takatsuki 300Bs with the DAC 2.0 sounds significantly better playing from my NAS using Roon via a microRendu and USB input than it does using an OPPO 203 via coaxial into the same DAC, of course that could be due to differences in the input to that DAC, but that has been my experience.
Best of luck in your hunt.
Regards,
Ed
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I use a Bricasti M1. It is now a $15k dac. I have used it for more than 3 years and don't want to part with it to have it upgraded with the latest software!
I intensely auditioned it against MSB and some other $10k+ dacs. I made the right decision.
The dac is the heart and soul of your system and if you have a, say, $500 CDP it will have a $100 dac in it. Not good.
I've learned my lesson in this hobby and that is to get the best of the best for a key few components to set yourself up for nirvana. The dac is the first item to nail down.
Some of the more modest dacs that are worth looking into have been mentioned: Exogal, Schiit, etc in the $1000 to $2500 range. And as the fast dog mentioned, don't buy a crappy cable. Look at Stealth, TotalDac USB, or Jena labs.
BTW, I've got 1000 CD's boxed up. Who wants to purchase them for $500? Streaming is the shiznit! And back up your hard drive!!!!
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Hi-Rez music and up sampling certainly do give you better sound quality with a great sounding DAC. I use Bug Head music player and routinely up sample music to 88, 176, 192, 354 and high depending upon the recording. In most instances the sound is vastly improved. A big plus is that there are many versions and many settings so you can tailor the sound to your system and even smooth out poorly recorded bright sounding music. I have also used HQ player and it can do the same thing and even up sample to DSD. It works great, especially when paired with room.
Big Red, that Bricasti M1 DAC is awesome. I got to hear it at Axpona a few years ago with Tidal speakers and the Bricasti monoblocks. They were using the M1 as a preamp as well. It was one of the top three sounding rooms along with the Vinni Rossi room and the Audio Kinesis room with BAT gear and the Exocgal Comet DAC. The Bricasti room was probably the best that I have heard and I have heard a few systems totaling over $120K in gear.
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I use a Bricasti M1. It is now a $15k dac. I have used it for more than 3 years and don't want to part with it to have it upgraded with the latest software!
I intensely auditioned it against MSB and some other $10k+ dacs. I made the right decision.
The dac is the heart and soul of your system and if you have a, say, $500 CDP it will have a $100 dac in it. Not good.
I've learned my lesson in this hobby and that is to get the best of the best for a key few components to set yourself up for nirvana. The dac is the first item to nail down.
Some of the more modest dacs that are worth looking into have been mentioned: Exogal, Schiit, etc in the $1000 to $2500 range. And as the fast dog mentioned, don't buy a crappy cable. Look at Stealth, TotalDac USB, or Jena labs.
BTW, I've got 1000 CD's boxed up. Who wants to purchase them for $500? Streaming is the shiznit! And back up your hard drive!!!!
Big Red good info, have you played around with music servers/streamers (Auralic,Lumin,SOtM) at all. Seems to be a lot out there now of days, would like your input.
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Big Red good info, have you played around with music servers/streamers (Auralic,Lumin,SOtM) at all. Seems to be a lot out there now of days, would like your input.
I sold off my uRendu as I could not keep the signal connected to the wireless. A major PITA. I looked at buying a Aurender but when it is said and done my HAL MS-2 with outboard HD and JRiver is essentially the same darn thing. And I much prefer JRiver. And you pay through the nose for more than 4 TB's in servers and 5 TB external HD's are only $150. I have not missed the uRendu at all. My system has never sounded so real now that I have Jena Cables IC's, Cerious Matrix SC's, and Stealth PC's. And the new speakers and amp of course.
So a HAL is under $1k as a down music player. So for half the price you can customize your own "server".
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Big Red, that Bricasti M1 DAC is awesome. I got to hear it at Axpona a few years ago with Tidal speakers and the Bricasti monoblocks. They were using the M1 as a preamp as well. It was one of the top three sounding rooms along with the Vinni Rossi room and the Audio Kinesis room with BAT gear and the Exocgal Comet DAC. The Bricasti room was probably the best that I have heard and I have heard a few systems totaling over $120K in gear.
Redbook is fantastic on the M1. And yes, you can hear blacker backgrounds with anything above Redbook but DSD is so black it can be boring, believe it or not.
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Thanks Pete.
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Some of the more modest dacs that are worth looking into have been mentioned: Exogal, Schiit, etc in the $1000 to $2500 range. And as the fast dog mentioned, don't buy a crappy cable. Look at Stealth, TotalDac USB, or Jena labs.
Digital Cables are digital cables. An OEM Apple or Dell USB cable will have exactly the same data as a Stealth Cable (just quoting, I do not care to look at Stealth or Jena cables). In fact, it can be easily proved the the cables (OEM vs. grail cables) transmit the same data. This brings us to the most practical Audio Engineer I have never met. Peter Lyngdorf - who recommends the use of cheap ethernet cabling on his mega $ Steinway-Lyngdorfs. The reason? It does not matter (I can get more technical, but will hold back for now)
At this point, I need to give a shout out to Bryston's Engineers - who asked me to use any 10A fast blow fuse in my 14B-SST (when the outputs shorted by mistake)
Summary: Bryston/Lyngdorf engineers - 1
Idiotically expensive USB Cables - 0
Bapcha
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I have gone another route and I am now an Analog Luddite.
I never play CDs at home, I'm selling off most of my hi-res discs (sacd-DVD-audio) and just bought a new phono preamp and procured 8 Mullard NOS 12ax7/12au7 tubes.
If you really want to hear the music, get a turntable. Keep the CD/digital files but I'll wager a dollar to your doughnut you will stop listening to digital after a taste of analog.
And yes, Bryston can help you with Analog.
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Digital Cables are digital cables. An OEM Apple or Dell USB cable will have exactly the same data as a Stealth Cable (just quoting, I do not care to look at Stealth or Jena cables). In fact, it can be easily proved the the cables (OEM vs. grail cables) transmit the same data. This brings us to the most practical Audio Engineer I have never met. Peter Lyngdorf - who recommends the use of cheap ethernet cabling on his mega $ Steinway-Lyngdorfs. The reason? It does not matter (I can get more technical, but will hold back for now)
At this point, I need to give a shout out to Bryston's Engineers - who asked me to use any 10A fast blow fuse in my 14B-SST (when the outputs shorted by mistake)
Summary: Bryston/Lyngdorf engineers - 1
Idiotically expensive USB Cables - 0
Bapcha
I am not going to get into a long drawn out discussion or war about usb cables but they can sound different and it is clearly system dependent. And I can't explain why. I use to be a non believer in cables until we started doing cable shoot outs.
I had 4 of my audiophile buddies over to my house and we did a usb cable shoot out with a $600 Wire Wold Platinum cable, a $600 lightspeed cable both owned by one of my friends. We also used a $125 Wire World Starlight Red and a $40 Pangea. The results were eye opening to say the least and the differences were not subtle.
In my system with my Luxman DAC, the Platinum was smooth, detailed, musical with just a hint of warmth. The lighspeed was so bright and glaring it was not really listenable but it had the most detail (it is interesting to note that in my friends system the Lightspeed did not sound bright and it was very neutral and he preferred it over the Platinum). The Starlight sounded overly dark and warm to the point of sounding veiled. The Pangea, was thin, bright and lacked detail and resolution.
To each his own and believe what you want to believe.
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@ G E: Enjoy your Ludditeness.
One of the wonderful things about this hobby is that there is room for a wide variety of preferences. Having been through analogue sound systems and tubes, I much prefer the consistency of digital. No ticks, pops or hiss, no deterioration of the medium or of the amplification chain.
As the French say: Chacun a son goût!
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I switched from CD years ago to a Dac when I decided to put a Mac Mini in my system. I use a Audio Note Signature Dac 3.1 out to a full Herron Audio system....between my Mac and AN Dac is a Sonicweld diverter which is a USB to BNC converter. I am addicted to ITunes only because the music choices I have available.
I have in the last 3 years replaced a Mark Levinson No.360s, BMC Ultra Dac and PSAudio Directstream Dac(most recent version). I wasn’t hugely impressed with any of them other than the Levinson piece and it was the oldest technology of the 3 and when I switched to the AN Dac I never looked back and have yet to hear a CD player that sounds better than either the Levinson or AN Dac in my system using ITunes. So I am on the get a Dac side of the fence and I....unlike the poster above do believe in upgraded cables and that is also from trying out many different brands and designs over the years.....believe me I would have rather bought some cheap wire from radio shack/Lowe’s or Home Depot and saved some cash but cheap cables sound like cheap cables.
Good Luck with the digital search!
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Digital Cables are digital cables. An OEM Apple or Dell USB cable will have exactly the same data as a Stealth Cable (just quoting, I do not care to look at Stealth or Jena cables). In fact, it can be easily proved the the cables (OEM vs. grail cables) transmit the same data. This brings us to the most practical Audio Engineer I have never met. Peter Lyngdorf - who recommends the use of cheap ethernet cabling on his mega $ Steinway-Lyngdorfs. The reason? It does not matter (I can get more technical, but will hold back for now)
At this point, I need to give a shout out to Bryston's Engineers - who asked me to use any 10A fast blow fuse in my 14B-SST (when the outputs shorted by mistake)
Summary: Bryston/Lyngdorf engineers - 1
Idiotically expensive USB Cables - 0
Bapcha
I actually met Peter Lyngdorf last sunday, at the XFI in The Netherlands, where he did a demo on his very expensive Steinway series. The digital was connected with a (shielded) el cheapo stock USB cable and a standard cat 6 network cable. Because "it doesn't matter, digital is digital" as he proclaimed during the demo.
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I actually met Peter Lyngdorf last sunday, at the XFI in The Netherlands, where he did a demo on his very expensive Steinway series. The digital was connected with a (shielded) el cheapo stock USB cable and a standard cat 6 network cable. Because "it doesn't matter, digital is digital" as he proclaimed during the demo.
That's a short-sighted perspective. No one would argue that "digital is digital" or that "bits are bits," but a good cable does more than transmit information. It needs to do so cleanly which means eliminating EMI/RFI. A high end cable is likely to do a better job in propagating a cleaner signal than an el cheapo cable.
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Tip of the day “Make sure when you are comparing cables you arent doing this”
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184832)
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Uh oh, looks like this risks going from a DAC discussion to a cables one :duh:
As far as I can tell, the only cable worth spending more than $20-$30 on are analogue ones, particularly RCA interconnects. I tried a $6 cheapie vs the $130 ATC one that I bought, and the difference was night and day, most noticeable in terms of achieving clean, rather than bloated bass. I also listened to a $250 Chord interconnect, and the step-up was a lot smaller. That's all I needed to know really...
As far as DACs go, yes, they can make a big difference. I A/B tested the Chord Qutest ($1,900) vs the Audiolab M-DAC+ ($1,200). I went home with the Qutest. Or rather, I placed my order for it, which took a month, even here in the UK. I feel a lot happier spending $1900 on the Qutest than $1200 on the MDAC+, for the same reason people here spend thousands on nice speakers. The bass with the Qutest was SO clean, crisp, and as a result, punchy. The bass with the MDAC+ was bloated and nondescript. Also, the Qutest really brings out individual instruments so that you hear everything individually rather than as a confined mix, and for well-recorded tracks, this means that you really get a good feel of the composition coming together. The only downside right now is that I feel the Qutest is "lacking emotion" a bit, but this is probably more due to my current speaker and amp setup - a DAC shouldn't add a sonic signature. I'm getting new speakers shortly so I will reserve further judgement until then : 8)
Are there cheaper alternatives to the Qutest that may be as good or better? Probably. But I'm confident that it will blow any DAC that's less than $500 or so out of the water.
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Great discussion folks. :thumb:
I switched to a fully digital system years ago and have never looked back (sort of).
The advantages are many. But in a nostalgic kind of way, I miss spinning vinyl - the lushness and warmth. Almost everyday, I walk past a stack of albums in my basement and say....one day baby...one day I'll get a new turntable and phono preamp - and they'll be back.
Cables matter. No doubt about it.
Interconnects and power cables DO make a difference. Whether you like it or not - that's the beauty of this hobby - you get to choose! And I choose to buy good quality cables for not-so-ridiculous prices.
In fact, I just bought a new micro USB cable from Curious cables - and gonna try it out tonight (connecting external HD to BDP1). Should be fun!
TJ
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I have both analog and digital and say that I prefer the sound of vinyl to that of bits,
but both sound very good to these old ears and it's hard to beat the convenience of
digital...have to get out of my listening chair fewer times :lol:
Hibuck....
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Joe, do not listen to grsimmon as he does not know what he is talking about and should not be on this forum with that answer. My question to you is first what type of equipment do you own? Your benefit from a D/A converter will ultimately be dependant on the resolving power of your equipment. I own the BDA3, and it certainly makes two channel music sound better than the D/A converter of my SP3, which I no slough itself.
That's some funny stuff right there. Anyways, get a Bryston CD player and you'll be fine.
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+1 :thumb:
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Two things - how important is slightly better sound and are you willing to pay for it?
I'm comparing the JBL305MkII with my Philharmonitors. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159482.0
I want to scale down and save some money - but in listening to the JBL's, they are very good for the price and sound great. But the more I listen to them, the more that slightly flabbier bass kind of bothers me. I miss the tight bass when I sit down and really listen. If it was only for background, I'd have no problem with them. So the extra expense of the Philharmonitors seems worth it though it's not a huge difference in sound.
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That's a short-sighted perspective. No one would argue that "digital is digital" or that "bits are bits," but a good cable does more than transmit information. It needs to do so cleanly which means eliminating EMI/RFI. A high end cable is likely to do a better job in propagating a cleaner signal than an el cheapo cable.
Not really. Peter Lyngdorf knows what he is doing. He is well respected by both audiophiles and techies alike, and I am confident that he is right
Bapcha
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I disagree. After recently seeing a link in an AC thread to the Nov 2017 Dagogo review of several ethernet cables, I was skeptical but decided to borrow from The Cable Co. a couple of Wireworld ethernet cables that the reviewer liked - the Chroma and the Starlight Cat 8s - to compare with my relatively inexpensive Cat 6 cables. I did not want to spend money to replace my ethernet cables and hoped there would be no significant difference. Besides me, I had 2 other people for the audition - my wife (who is a classical pianist and who most definitely did not want me to spend more money on cables, but who has a very discerning ear) and an audiophile friend visiting that week. I knew which cables we were listening to but they did not; in fact, because I use a powerline adapter, one ethernet cable is in our den where the Charter cable enters the house (and thus where they could not even see me changing cables) and the other cable is in our great room where it is hooked up to the stereo system. All 3 of us readily heard significant improvements in SQ with the Wireworld cables, especially with the Starlight and especially when it was used to hook into the music server used as the primary source for our system. So I bought the Chroma to use in our den and the Starlight to use to hook into the music server. Now exactly why they sounded better (and I have no connection with Wireworld nor do I claim its ethernet cables are necessarily the best), I can't say for sure, although Wireworld claims benefits from both the faster speed of its Cat 8 and the better noise rejection properties of its cables. All I can say is that it was one of the bigger bang for the buck changes I've made to our system. So I would respectfully suggest listening to different ethernet cables before claiming with such certainty that there is no difference.
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You are welcome to disagree - but most half way good engineers can prove that the digital files being served to your DAC are identical in both cases. The uncorrectable bit rate is less than 1 in 1e8. Typical is 100 times lower 1 in 1e10
Bapcha
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Great story sounddog - thanks for sharing. :popcorn:
This is such a cool hobby... you get try different gear and decide for yourself if this new "thing" makes a noticeable change, or a difference - and in our own minds improves our stereo systems.
I am with you sounddog. making improvements is rewarding, and sometimes, with just a few modest purchases - our systems change for the better.
Hard interpretations, like "bits are bits" or "digital cables are digital cables" - is a sure way to limit the possibilities for system improvements - and sadly, may in fact reduce the fun in experimentation in this awesome hobby by narrowing scope.
so...there will be camps. and the camp I'm in embraces trial and error - and happily accepts all things hifi cannot be explained by linear thinking and current science.
In the end, if it sounds better - it is.
TJ
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You are welcome to disagree - but most half way good engineers can prove that the digital files being served to your DAC are identical in both cases. The uncorrectable bit rate is less than 1 in 1e8. Typical is 100 times lower 1 in 1e10
Bapcha
You can't measure everything you hear! My Parasound A21 amp spec's are way better than my Pass X250 amp but it comes no where close to sounding as good. There is more to it than 1's and 0's with digital cables like cat and usb for some reason. Don't put down other peoples findings when you were not present. I was one of the most skeptical guys when it came to cables, but hearing dramatic differences between cables made me a believer. It is all system dependent. Every ones gear is different.
4 of us heard big differences between usb cables, how do you explain that? If the differences were all subtle, I could see your point. But 2 of the cables were so bright that it hurt your ears and one was veiled and dark. I guess we are all placebophiles!
I always get pissed off at people who claim that there are no differences between gear and tell other people to not waste their time trying out different cables just because they haven't heard them in their system. Not all DAC's are created equal and they can respond differently to different cables for what ever reason. Sometimes no difference will be heard. My DAC and my friends Hugo Chord and T+A DAC8 sound different with different cables.
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You can't measure everything you hear!....
I always get pissed off at people who claim that there are no differences between gear and tell other people to not waste their time trying out different cables just because they haven't heard them in their system....
Roger that, Greyhound Fan. I agree 100%. :thumb:
TJ
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Roger that, Greyhound Fan. I agree 100%. :thumb:
TJ
But if the files are identical, the DAC firmware is at fault (unless you can figure out a better explanation)
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bapcha, i think you are missing the point.
not all things can be explained - or need to be. simply trust your ears.
take a deep breath and dive into the world of trying new things....like a new power cable, USB cable, or interconnect. You never know, you just might find something that jives with your system and appeals to your ears.
And its ok, there doesn't need to be a rationale or explanation.
cheers, TJ
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ya should've been a shrink.
:lol:
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This is my everyday tip now....”Don’t do this before comparing cables”
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184875)
Give it a break.....if guys/girls want to try various cables out to see if they get improvement with their systems it’s their choice on how to spend their $$$$. I will be the first one to admit that higher price gear doesn’t always mean a higher quality sound(lived and learned) but to keep throwing your negative opinion out especially about cables without being there to witness is a bit much.
Let it go and enjoy the knowledge we all gain by reading others past and present Audio experiences. This was a thread on DACs & CD players not cables....you started off with your experience with your 10 year old slim devices/Logitech transporter and no one chimed in and disrespected your view of it. I personally wouldn’t have it in a back up system but that’s my opinion and I am sure I could find a review of it online saying it’s the biggest POS made but why? It makes you happy and that is the only thing that matters.
I apologize in advance but had to get that out.
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Jitter/timing. (Which can be measured, by the way, even if there isn't perfect consensus on what constitutes a 'good enough' result.)
Even if you transmit the voltage levels representing 1s and 0s in the proper sequence 100% of the time, that alone doesn't guarantee a perfect output, as those voltage levels have to occur at precise times. Conducted and radiated emissions are known to be able to impact nearby electronics in undesirable ways, and that can include impacting the multitude of clocks commonly found in digital gear, or downstream electronic interfaces, etc.. Other scenarios are possible as well.
Such emissions are possible on all wires, including those inside a DAC, etc.. One hopes that better DACs have improved wire routing, better internal ground paths, better inherent EMI/RFI rejection, etc., so as to be less susceptible to such influences. Though whether you notice the influence of such effects may very well depend on where you live... the person living in the middle of nowhere may never have to worry about such issues with any reasonably well designed set of gear, while the person living next to the local broadcasting tower array may find that just moving wires causes a change in behavior.
No part of your audio system exists in isolation - it has to be considered as a whole with an understanding as to how individual elements may impact other elements, including across time, across a variety of inputs (music selection), and across various environments. Just because a behavior isn't evident in your environment doesn't meant that it isn't evident elsewhere.
(And that's aside from rather foundational assumptions of equal hearing ability, equally well implemented room acoustic treatments, etc., much less differences in musical or system presentation preferences.)
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Jitter does not corrupt the data. The DAC decodes 16/24/32 bits at a time (though I have hard to answer questions for any DAC that claims that it can actually resolve 32 bits of precision - or the reverse [ADC] on the analog side)
Not sure I understand "precise times" - the encoding determines timing. It is either 44KHz or 96KHz or 192KHz (assuming Redbook or higher resolution). The timing is pre-determined, and it is not that difficult when engineers routinely deal with over 10Gbps
Bapcha
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bapcha, i think you are missing the point.
not all things can be explained - or need to be. simply trust your ears.
take a deep breath and dive into the world of trying new things....like a new power cable, USB cable, or interconnect. You never know, you just might find something that jives with your system and appeals to your ears.
And its ok, there doesn't need to be a rationale or explanation.
cheers, TJ
I designed circuits for a living before I went over to the business side of things. I know what is possible with Silicon (or Germanium or SiGe) and what is not (likewise, Copper, Aluminum, superconductors too). Until now, I can only relate to three engineers in the high end audio profession. They are Chris Russell of Bryston, Nelson Pass and Peter Lyngdorf. Charlie Hansen of Ayre too
Bapcha
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Jitter does not corrupt the data. The DAC decodes 16/24/32 bits at a time (though I have hard to answer questions for any DAC that claims that it can actually resolve 32 bits of precision - or the reverse [ADC] on the analog side)
Not sure I understand "precise times" - the encoding determines timing. It is either 44KHz or 96KHz or 192KHz (assuming Redbook or higher resolution). The timing is pre-determined, and it is not that difficult when engineers routinely deal with over 10Gbps
I didn't say that it corrupted the data, but if the DAC reconstruction filter is unable to place even correctly delivered data properly in time, a signal other that what was intended will result nonetheless.
The frequencies you list are the reference frequencies of the oscillators. Real clocks will vary about those intended targets for a variety of reasons, which I'm sure you know based on your circuit design experience. All oscillators, from basic OCXO based clocks through 'atomic clocks' have various stability, precision, and accuracy specs defined by the manufacturer, and the variation within those specs may be driven by thermal, magnetic, gravitational, EM/RF, and other influences.
(Signals may be impacted elsewhere besides the clock... that's just one example.)
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Minus the Lyngdorf brand I have had all the others you mentioned and replaced all of them with different gear.
I will say I am a huge Nelson Pass fan....and all three brands deliver the sonic picture a bit differently.
I am bit surprised that you put up such a strong opinion on the validity of cables not having a bearing on sound but list 4 different designers that get to the end result in 4 different ways. Your brain doesn’t allow you to think that cable design could have the same effect? I have had all of those brands and none sound alike so why then couldn’t different Cable design have the same effect?
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i give up. it's like talking to a brick wall... :scratch:
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Digital Cables are digital cables. An OEM Apple or Dell USB cable will have exactly the same data as a Stealth Cable (just quoting, I do not care to look at Stealth or Jena cables). In fact, it can be easily proved the the cables (OEM vs. grail cables) transmit the same data. This brings us to the most practical Audio Engineer I have never met. Peter Lyngdorf - who recommends the use of cheap ethernet cabling on his mega $ Steinway-Lyngdorfs. The reason? It does not matter (I can get more technical, but will hold back for now)
Bapcha
Digital cables are all alike except for those that don't meet spec. And surprise, many "of the off the shelf", hanging on a rack ones at the big box store - don't. Also some audiophile expensive ones don't (which may explain why they sound "different"). There were tests posted online a few years ago of typical inexpensive cables and many were sub spec.
It's worth it to spend a bit more and get something well made like BlueJeans cable, where they test/measure each cable and ensure it meets spec.
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Getting back to the orig topic...
Is a DAC really necessary? :popcorn:
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Loaded question, Elizabeth: is the new DAC worth the $$? Do you hear a significant improvement?
Hi Calypte, sorry I was not following this thread, so a late response.
Yes my new device, (a Marantz SA-10 SACD player, with several digital inputs, which also decodes CDs using DSD ) is much better than my old DAC.
After I bought new speakers, going from Magnepan 3.6 to Magnepan 20.7 ... My dealer loaned me a Marantz SA-10. I found it to be superior to my old DAC playing CDs via ($40 off eBay) five disc changers (which I use all the time). The Marantz really brought the playback of CD right up to SACD sound quality. particularly the treble. (no more grunge).
The tiny difference in playback between the SA-10 own spinner, and from my changers is not a problem for day in day out use. Allows me to 'save' the Marantz spinner for critical listening moments.
I have 2,500 plus CDs. and maybe a dozen dual discs. So my main interest was in playing CDs. I also have no interest in streaming, at this time. So MQA etc is not a concern. (no one so far seems to have brought up the MQA can of worms...)
Anyway, my thought on a DAC is they are great. Allowing one to buy cheaper used CD spinners and just wearing them out. Instead of expensive CD players that wear out. A DAC in never going to 'wear out'. It may become obsolete for your particular needs.. But if all you want is to play CDs.. it ain't gonna go bad.
Also, when I go to a dealer, they all want to sell me streaming devices. Every time. I have no interest in joining that gang.
So yeah I really really like my new Marantz SA-10. worth the money, to me? yes. (my previous DAC cost me $250, and I used it for over ten years)
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Why not trial a DAC in your system for 30 days?
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The OP wants to know why he needs a DAC in his system. He doesn't. He maintains the same option I've clung to until recently. That is one of ignoring modern trends. The world has gone digital in large measure. Streaming has become the future of music reproduction. Each of us can ignore this for as long as we like or until it becomes impractical or maybe impossible to do so. To each his own but I have noticed a trend toward replacing your preamp with a versatile DAC with volume control and input selection and streaming capabilities. Last week I obtained a lightly used OPPO Sonica ( Thanks to Cytocycle) and a brand new OPPO UDP 205 (thanks to OPPO). Power amps are also being replaced by powered speakers. Time marches on. I'm using the 205 with my big horns and a Crown XLS 1500 amp. Very handy. I plan to purchase JBL 705P speakers for use with the Sonica.
I did not need any of these changes from a life or death imperative standpoint any more than the OP does. Nonetheless, I found the resulting simplicity and quality of reproduction and presentation to be such that I am willing to give up my turntable and LPs and consider replacing my horns as well. Might even get a haircut too. I'm feeling the glow of inclusion now that I've gone over to the dark side. Join me. You won't regret the change for a minute.
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Getting back to the orig topic...
Is a DAC really necessary? :popcorn:
Only if an ADC is "really necessary"
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Why not trial a DAC in your system for 30 days?
Back to me the original troublemaker here; I took my 1996 vintage Copland CD player to a reputable dealer; and we played CDs through it; and then with a good Aqua DAC (which is supposed to be very good). My Copland had a digital out; so we then listed using the "upgraded" DAC. In all honesty, I didn't hear any difference. I wish that I had, then I would have had a better idea what all the fuss was about. Honestly, I hope on re-readying this thread, before I do anything else, I will understand where the "beef" is with outboard DACs. Right now, I know I will need a new CD player soon, and am planning to get the BCD, and I have an Audioengines little $169 streaming box hooked up to the integrated, and I get a lot of pleasure out of that. Compared to over -the-air AM?FM the Audioengines is aural Nirvana. Maybe it will be a mistake to get the BCD stand alone CD player, but as of now, I just don't see it... I thank everyone for their thoughtful and passionate replies to this thread. Rip Van Winkle thanks you.
Maybe I will also buy a new turntable, that would be funny indeed, since I will have to totally rebuild my vinyl library. Oh well......
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Joe - the Bryston BCD-3 is what you need. it won't be a mistake. guaranteed.
I thought WhatHiFi said it best here:
"Why buy a dedicated CD player like the Bryston BCD-3? It’s a fair question in this age of streaming and file downloads. The answer is surprisingly simple. It’s good.
If you have a large collection of discs and don’t have the inclination to move to computer-based audio, this Bryston CD player could be what you need."
Go for it man.
TJ
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I went through the same thing a while back. Thinking about it, it was a good 10 years ago or so, so I guess time flies :)
IMO we really need to put the sound quality stuff aside for a bit and ask what the advantages are in going discless. I looked into it because I got tired of getting up and changing discs. While my discs were all neatly organized, I got tired of looking through them for a particular song or two. Looking at all of them, I got sidetracked in that I started seeing stuff I hadn’t listened to in a while and wanted to listen to that instead, then seeing something else, etc. I was quite ADD about it. But mostly, I found myself seemingly getting up and getting discs more than I was sitting and enjoying the music itself. I figured making compilation discs would help, like the old-school mixed tapes I used to make, but it didn’t.
Then my CD collection started taking over the room. I’m a minimalist by nature and an OCD guy in the sense of not wanting to see anything out of place. I found myself reorganizing my CDs constantly - alphabetically, by genre, by era, all that stuff. Then I’d get a new shipment of CDs and the whole collection had to be moved and reconfigured. Yeah, I’m crazy. Don’t judge :)
But my main thing was I traveled quite a bit for work, and got used to my iPod. I could actually sit and listen without fussing about with physical media. I thought it would be a perfect world if I had the iPod convenience with my system at home.
I bought the Apple TV generation 1 with the built in hard drive and optical output. I also bought a several generations old Theta DAC my local shop had laying around for about $150 to see if the whole thing had any potential. I haven’t looked back since. I don’t miss the physical media at all. I still have my turntable and LPs, and that easily fits the bill of handling media and that whole ritual.
I keep it as simple as possible. I run iTunes on my laptop, throwaway USB cable to my Rega DAC, and fed to my Bryston B60. Done. And it sounds fantastic. It could sound better, but couldn’t it ALWAYS sound a little bit better? Actually, I control my iTunes with my iPhone, so it’s not like I’m sitting with my laptop on my lap. And I have all of my music stored on an external hard dive connected to the laptop.
I sit down and listen to music. I’m not fiddling with WiFi issues, server issues, software issues, gear and computer program of the month issues, subscription issues, streaming service being down issues, playlists not showing up issues, etc. I just sit down and listen to music. Whatever I want hear that I own. Just like when I was in an airplane or on a bus. It works when I’m sitting and listening actively, or as background music when I’m doing stuff around the house. Or when there’s a bunch of people over. I can be on the other end of the house and change what’s being played. I can set up a specific playlist or play everything on random. And I can go over to the laptop and switch over to SiriusXM. That’s not really possible with a CD player. Or at least a single disc CDP.
All of that is keeping the system is simple as possible. Hard drive-> laptop -> DAC -> amplification. When I move into a bigger house, I’ll get into stuff like Bluesound with speakers in different rooms and all that fun stuff.
If none of that convenience means anything to you, stick with the CD player. If you think it’s enticing, try it out. I’m sure you’ve got a computer and hard drive. Get a cheap DAC and connect it to see if you’d rather move that way. If it works out, upgrade to your heart and budget’s content. If it’s not worth the effort of going forward, move on.
With the quality of DACs out there, sound quality isn’t the determining factor anymore IMO. It’s how you want to interact with your equipment.
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Interesting and well thought out take on this subject.
I’m sure it applies to the majority of music listeners.
For me it’s the opposite.
Sound quality isn’t just the determining factor, it’s the only factor.
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Back to me the original troublemaker here;
Maybe I will also buy a new turntable, that would be funny indeed, since I will have to totally rebuild my vinyl library. Oh well......
I was lucky and decided to "rebuild my vinyl library" back around 1997 or so.
I managed to collect 13,000 LPs dirt cheap. Then had to move in 2007, tossed 7,000. 6,000 of those tossed were Classical.. Of the 6,000 I kept and moved. I now have only about 3,500 or so. Constant weeding out lesser stuff.
I would say no one should get into LP playback at his time. Unless you really really want to. (Or some old fool like me dies and leaves you a big pile of LPs!)
Money is way better spent getting into streaming.
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Interesting and well thought out take on this subject.
I’m sure it applies to the majority of music listeners.
For me it’s the opposite.
Sound quality isn’t just the determining factor, it’s the only factor.
I can respect that it's the only factor for you. However, how exactly do you determine if a DAC or CDP is the best route? There are DACs that outperform CDPs, and CDPs that outperform DACs. To say one type is better than the other isn't anywhere near true.
If you're saying audition everything and choose the one that sounds the best, regardless of if it's a DAC or CDP, then absolutely.
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Why ?? The source is key to proper sound. Garbage in garbage out. Digital today has equaled vinyl and some DAC's are giving vinyl a challenge not heard before.
Owning both in state of art form has taught me allot lately. Some LPs better Cd. Some Cd's better vinyl. A small degree in either format. Vinyl now is not my main format as it was for a long long time.
The only way one will realize this is to try a State of Art DAC in ones system. Stop fooling with inexpensive wanna bees and try a Bryston.
charles
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Ok, so I am Rip Van Winkle; I dropped out of the audio hobby when I started a family in 1998. Then it was pretty much CDs, and when I could listen to music I did it in the car; or the Bose radio, or my existing system which was fine at the time. Now I am back as Rip Van Winkle; and it's all DACs and nomenclature that I really don't understand. I have a zillion CDs and I am going to need a new CD player (maybe unless I am told otherwise) soon; and the BCD 3 is my choice there. Also, I know a tiny bit about streaming and I bought a small $169 Audio Engine to stream radio shows, and it is great. I don't have much music on my computer; and I am enough of a classical music audiophile nut not to find many of the great historic recordings that I love on Tidal or whatever, even though I have been looking just doing research. So, I am thinking why would I need a DAC? I have talked to a few guys in the few audio stores that still exit, and I don't get it. I mean I hear what they say, but I am not going to replace all these CDs; maybe I will "rip" them someday. But if I want to upgrade my system, why would I want a DAC, and if did why would I spend more than a couple of grand on a DAC? Maybe not a good question for this forum, but I trust Jim Tanner, and like the folks here so maybe you can enlighten me. Thanks,
Joe
Hi Joe!
No enlightenment required. I am in the prosee of purchasing a new CD player. My First new CD player actually. Most of my collection is in FLAC and this is being playerd through a digital player and a DAC but for CDs, I intend to use a proper CD player. There are advantages to CD playback. It has to do with the fact CD mechanism is slaved to the master clock. Since the base frequency is always the same for CD, the system already "knows" which frequency to lock onto. This is not possible with an outboard DAC because such a device has to be designed to accomodate all incoming frequencies. So an outboard DAC has to employ some trickery to get the digital jitter down.
You might use an outboard DAC and a CD transport and still achieve good results. My favourite CD transport is a Pioneer DVD player actually but you might choose your own. As for CD players, I quite like the Denon SACD offerings. They are known for reliability, quite excellent optical and mechanical Systems and to me, w sound that is bristling with detail.
Cheers,
Antun